What if ALL PvP gear had the same Expertise value?

[KPureblade]

I do not frequent these forums so forgive me if this has been discussed before. This idea just came to me and I wanted to get thoughts on it.

 

It seems like a big "problem" with PvP on SWTOR is the Expertise stat. It is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. Basically, the Expertise stat is there to separate PvP progression from PvE progression, so people don't cry out that a PvP'r has better gear than them for PvE, when the PvE'r worked really hard in PvE content to get his gear.

 

The problem comes in when someone in Recruit gear is facing off against someone in War Hero gear. There is a pretty extreme "gap" there as far as chance to win a fight.

 

So here is my thought.. what if all PvP tiers of gear all had the same Expertise value? The necessary evil of Expertise remains but perhaps lessens the huge gap between tiers of gear.

 

To put it another way, take the PvP CHEST piece. Let's say the Recruit, Battlemaster, AND War Hero sets all have 50 Expertise on them. But to add the benefit of progressing gear, the War Hero set will have more Main stats, Endurance, and other non-Expertise stats than the Recruit gear.

 

In my head, this would make me think that the power "gap" between tiers of gear would be lessened, and perhaps TTK would be increased. Essentially it takes away stacking Expertise to get an edge on the competition, but still requires it to compete in PvP.

 

Thoughts?

 

Bonus thought: Assume the idea above works. What if they made it so Expertise also reduces the time in Stun? Stun locking is huge in PvP and can be really lopsided at times. If the Expertise stat reduced the time you remained in Stun, this would make stun locking less critical in PvP while leaving it untouched for the PvE'rs.

Edited August 23, 2012 by KPureblade

[oredith]

this would have the opposite effect you are hoping for.

 

WH gear puts a ton of gear budget into expertise. most people are already looking for ways to keep their expertise down toward 1200-1250 in their WH gear, and augmenting for more primary / power / crit instead.

 

so what you would end up with is basically recruit and warhero gear cancelling each other out (in terms of expertise), except the recruit will now essentially be in green gear, while the war hero would be in epic gear.

 

the fight would be even more lopsided.

[SneiK]

I don't think you understood what the OP tried to say. What I make of it: Make Recruit and WH the same in expertise, but not other stats. So, you still need to be either Recruit/BM/WH geared to PvP, but that expertise cap isn't there anymore. The difference would be much closer to what the difference is in PvE gear progression. Yes, recruit and wh would cancel each other expertise wise, but the wh player would have much higher main/power/surge/crit etc stats. Right now, recruit is 'green' gear, with WH having a nice 10-15% something dmg bonus added to that. Edited August 23, 2012 by SneiK

[KPureblade]

Yeah, essentially you're removing Expertise from the equation while still requiring it for PvP. I think if nothing else it would close the gap because currently War Hero users have more Expertise AND main stats, where my idea would just have the main stats be a factor of difference.

[AlyxDinas]

There needs to be some progression. Something that rewards people moving upwards. I would not, however, be against an eventual cap. Having say, 5 tiers of gear that have expertise effects and when you reach that top point, gear after that just is prestige based. Have really awesome visuals tied to these gears (and potentially allow for more stat customization). Let that be the reward after the cap and have it be gated in different ways: Valor or WZ rankings.

 

Those things should have meaning too. Valor means very little right now. Give it meaning. Ranks mean little because people aren't playing ranked WZs much. Give rewards that make these things mean something but still retain an appreciable grind for gear up to a point. Then cap expertise, let players have more freedom in stat selection via purchasable mods, and have gear after the cap be visually compelling so that when you see it, you think "That guy is a bad***."

 

Because if they're reach that point, ideally, they probably are. At least that's how the system should work.

[Altheran]

If expertise don't grow up with gear it would imply a grow for other stat unless BioWare states that PvP gear must have less stats in total than PvE gear. A grow in other stats can be worse at some point (like people who dump ~100 Expertise on their bracers and belt to have these 100 stat in main stat and Endurance with moddable gear because it is better)

[PoliteAssasin]

If expertise don't grow up with gear it would imply a grow for other stat unless BioWare states that PvP gear must have less stats in total than PvE gear. A grow in other stats can be worse at some point (like people who dump ~100 Expertise on their bracers and belt to have these 100 stat in main stat and Endurance with moddable gear because it is better)

 

Lol welcome to long time ago, people already do that with moddable bracers and belts, im one of them. It's called customization, you can choose to do it, or not.

[kweassa]

What if ALL PvP gear had the same Expertise value?

 

They do. It's called "get WH gear".

 

When you have the same gear as them, then you have same expertise level.

[oredith]

They do. It's called "get WH gear".

 

When you have the same gear as them, then you have same expertise level.

divide by zero.

 

does not compute..

 

head esplode.

[jerramieD]

if all pvp gear had the same amount of expertise on it, peop-le would simply use what ever gear they wanted and have the expertise taken out of the pvp gear and put into reg raid gear

[JackNader]

Warehero and Recruit should have ALWAYS had the same expertise. Quite frankly what Bioware did was simply retarded.

[magi_melcior]

Agree with the OP myself here. Expertise is there simply for the purpose of forcing players to grind to different gear progressions at lvl 50, 1 for PvP and 1 for PvE. This stops a player who focuses mainly on Warzones from suddenly dropping into a Raid with better gear than players who spent their time grinding the PvE gear, and Rakata or Black Hole players from gaining an advantage in PvP.

 

As far as the idea that equalizing Expertise would stop any desire for Gear Progressions, I don't see that being an issue. If you compare the base (non expertise) stats of the different PvP tiers you'll see that there is a big difference between the 3 sets already. Take, for example the Jedi Knight Vindicator gear, the Battlemaster Chest has a total Endurance of +84 and Strength of +81 (to pick just the two primary stats), War Hero Vindicator has Endurance of +123 and Strength of +91, that is a big jump on it's own, add in the fact that the BM Chest give 100 Expertise and the WH gives 110 and the difference between the sets increases further. I don't know about you but a gain of 10 in strength and 39 in Endurance would be more than enough incentive to grind for the WH gear, regardless of the Expertise gain.

 

At the end of the Day all Expertise has to do is buff up the PvP gear in Warzones so that it outperforms it's PvE counterparts (Recruit > Tioneese, BM > Columi ect.), the differences between the sets stats are already great enough to drive most people to improve their gear without and differences in the Expertise % boost being required, all that does (as the OP stated) is make the differences between the sets even greater and makes it very difficult for new Recruit Players (and we have all been one at some point) struggle to compete against full WH or Augmented BM.

[oredith]

Agree with the OP myself here. Expertise is there simply for the purpose of forcing players to grind to different gear progressions at lvl 50, 1 for PvP and 1 for PvE. This stops a player who focuses mainly on Warzones from suddenly dropping into a Raid with better gear than players who spent their time grinding the PvE gear, and Rakata or Black Hole players from gaining an advantage in PvP.

 

As far as the idea that equalizing Expertise would stop any desire for Gear Progressions, I don't see that being an issue. If you compare the base (non expertise) stats of the different PvP tiers you'll see that there is a big difference between the 3 sets already. Take, for example the Jedi Knight Vindicator gear, the Battlemaster Chest has a total Endurance of +84 and Strength of +81 (to pick just the two primary stats), War Hero Vindicator has Endurance of +123 and Strength of +91, that is a big jump on it's own, add in the fact that the BM Chest give 100 Expertise and the WH gives 110 and the difference between the sets increases further. I don't know about you but a gain of 10 in strength and 39 in Endurance would be more than enough incentive to grind for the WH gear, regardless of the Expertise gain.

 

At the end of the Day all Expertise has to do is buff up the PvP gear in Warzones so that it outperforms it's PvE counterparts (Recruit > Tioneese, BM > Columi ect.), the differences between the sets stats are already great enough to drive most people to improve their gear without and differences in the Expertise % boost being required, all that does (as the OP stated) is make the differences between the sets even greater and makes it very difficult for new Recruit Players (and we have all been one at some point) struggle to compete against full WH or Augmented BM.

there's a fundamental difference of opinion here. I completely understand where you're coming from, and it all makes sense, I just personally completely disagree with it.

 

you want it to be more equal, baby steps.

 

I want my work to pay off big, in noticeable improvements.

 

to that end, I actually think the WH gear needs a significant boost. it's damn near the same stats as BM.

[JackNader]

That's just it dude.. your work doesn't pay off big. You are 1 player on a team. What happens when you grind all the way up to WH and then you get stuck with 4 - 6 recruits on your team. Your gear grind is worth dick then.

[oredith]

That's just it dude.. your work doesn't pay off big. You are 1 player on a team. What happens when you grind all the way up to WH and then you get stuck with 4 - 6 recruits on your team. Your gear grind is worth dick then.

hmm.. maybe for you.

 

i still have plenty of fun even if i'm stuck with scrubs?

 

what if all gear were the same, and I am stuck with 4-6 people who are just bad at the game?

 

i'd rather take 4-6 fair players in crappy gear, than 4-6 bad players.

Edited August 23, 2012 by oredith

[Elkirin]

Please remove the epeen attacks, focus on the topic or seek professional help.

 

 

WHile I have no issue with the idea in principal, I have two questions;

 

Would you locate the expertise on armor mod only? ( I see issues with it on the shell) and

 

How would you bring the system in so as not to disadvantage people who have already customised their WH gear?

[Monterone]

Agree with OP, good idea... equalizing expertise would lessen the gap and probably create a more fun 50s bracket, especially for new players or fresh alts.

[criminalheretic]

Hate to ruin everyone's raging, but this already pretty much the case. The difference between WH and BM in expertise is like less than 100 points, which after the 1200 threshold equates to like a 2.4% difference. The real difference already IS the main stats, and that a lot of people don't bother/can't afford to augment their BM gear.

[Huggsnotdruggs]

I'm not going to read anythin in this topic, nor the ops post. the title is all i need.

If this were the case then it would be like Rift. which was AMAZING. the only thing higher level pvp armor gave you was more base stats. everyone had roughly the same expertise though so you still had to wear pvp gear for pvp and pve for pve. simple as that. even play field

Edited August 23, 2012 by Huggsnotdruggs

[JackNader]

Warehero and Recruit should have ALWAYS had the same expertise. Quite frankly what Bioware did was simply retarded.

[WaywardOne]

Warehero and Recruit should have ALWAYS had the same expertise. Quite frankly what Bioware did was simply retarded.

 

BW basically copied Wow except Wow doesn't have a free recruit set last I checked. Those have, at this moment, the busiest pvp in mmos out there. D3 aside, are you calling both Blizzard and Bioware retarded?

 

I still don't understand why people think a fresh 50 should be on even footing with someone that's played hundreds of hours (in a gear based game). But the expertise isn't that big of a difference and, if you plan ahead a little, anyone can have 3500 rwz comms and 2000 reg comms before their first level 50 game... If you bite the bullet you can trade those rwz comms back to reg comms and gear up in 1/2 BM for over 1k expertise. Slap some augments on all of that and no one will know you're a fresh 50. But you will still die fast vs 3 enemies (just like full wh do).

 

I think too many people are browsing the pvp vendors, looking at the grand prize, noting how it will take months to get, and ignoring the Battlemaster vendors.

Edited August 24, 2012 by WaywardOne

[Anysao]

This is a pretty good idea!

Won't beat the amazing pre-50 PvP, of course.

[Toraak]

BW basically copied Wow except Wow doesn't have a free recruit set last I checked. Those have, at this moment, the busiest pvp in mmos out there. D3 aside, are you calling both Blizzard and Bioware retarded?

 

I still don't understand why people think a fresh 50 should be on even footing with someone that's played hundreds of hours (in a gear based game). But the expertise isn't that big of a difference and, if you plan ahead a little, anyone can have 3500 rwz comms and 2000 reg comms before their first level 50 game... If you bite the bullet you can trade those rwz comms back to reg comms and gear up in 1/2 BM for over 1k expertise. Slap some augments on all of that and no one will know you're a fresh 50. But you will still die fast vs 3 enemies (just like full wh do).

 

I think too many people are browsing the pvp vendors, looking at the grand prize, noting how it will take months to get, and ignoring the Battlemaster vendors.

 

Hate to tell you this, but while some people may do enough PvP to maximize how much rwz, and reg wz comms for when they hit 50, most don't. Most people get into PvP once they hit 50. They may do matches while leveling, but not fully level off of PvP. You'd almost have to be Valor 40, at 40th level, and with the 30:10 conversion rate PvP level the last 10 levels, maybe doing class quest in the mix.

[Jatt-Suu]

I have a better idea. If you are going to keep Expertise, tie it to valor, not armor. Then, have ques match up by valor rank within a 10 rank margin. This of course after you add the obvious, cross-server ques. Secondly, make the Recruit, BM, WH, and future armors about the base stats with a small to medium bump between each set, or even better, like social gear, a cosmetic perk of having a higher Valor rank. Finally, turn the Ilum open world PvP zone into a smaller 16 vs. 16 WZ as part of the map rotation (Off topic, but would be a nice addition).

 

Obviously, none of this is going to happen, but one can dream!

[WaywardOne]

I've got a 42 with 2k-ish rwz comms. If I keep going I will max the comms easily before 48. But I'm not saying it's -easy-, I'm not recommending selling rwz comms for reg comms, I'm just pointing out that options exist for those that can't wrap their heads around the idea that they will be at a disadvantage.

 

For those that just start pvping at 50, you're going to get rolled no matter what gear you have and no matter how much you whine on msg boards.