DPS output reduction while wearing tank gear.

[GarfieldJL]

It might work for you, but that doesn't mean it is optimal. I can DPS in my full tank gear. Why? Because its all 61 modded, augmented Rakata shells. However, I would put out MORE DPS in a Columi DPS set with my 61 MH and OH.

 

I haven't maxed out everything yet though, while you have, I have still some ways to go, again though, I have everything augmented, so I'm making up some of my shortcomings via the augments.

 

Similarly, a tank in Columi Tank gear is going to last longer than a tank in Campaign DPS gear.

 

I'm aware of that.

 

Also the only thing that affects your shields effectiveness is how much Shield/Absorb you have. A higher tier shield is only going to prevent more damage IF it has more shield/absorb (or defence but that's not really the shield saving you damage). A higher tier shield just means more tech/force power.

 

I'm also aware of that fact, however there is another key item to the crafted shields pre-tion, columni, rakata, blackhole, you have more stats like power, crit, etc. on top of the basic shield stats. In some ways it is arguable a better shield than the ones you get at endgame vendors.

 

Defence is a bad stat to stack. Its an all or nothing stat. You can die just as quickly with 90% defence as you can with 0% defence if you don't dodge anything. You're better off putting your extra 10 points into the Defence tree if you want to off tank. Pick up the cheaper riposte and Blade Barricade and you should get plenty of Defence. Chuck on a tank set (even Tionese) and your set. Maybe swap in some DPS pieces to help out with threat if your stuck with geared people.

 

I normally let people know I have offtank ability, most defense boost enhancements also have shield boost, you realize that. Shield generators are active when not in sorseu, just they aren't as effective.

 

Then there is the redoubt augment, which bolsters defense and power. Last I checked, power is a damage boost. There is an enhancement that boosts defense and surge, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find it on upper tier items like columi, tion, or rakata.

 

Or you know, say: "I'm not actually a tank, GF just bugged again. I'll catch you guys later :)". Then ask them to vote kick you and requeue. Or just queue with an actual tank, then it doesn't matter if you get tagged as tank.

 

Point is I actually did manage to tank in my gear without anyone in the group getting killed.

[grallmate]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I could tank in pure DPS gear with a good healer. I'd be an energy sponge for my healer but it could work. Doesn't mean it should be done though. No one is saying you CAN'T do it, people are saying you SHOULDN'T. DPS are not tanks and tanks are not DPS.

 

You can get away with tanking in DPS spec/gear while leveling if you have a good healer or overlevel the content. You can also get away with tanking in DPS gear if you are with a good healer who overgears the content. However, if you run that content with a group who is all on level (or appropriate gear) you WILL NOT succeed when tanking in DPS/Hybrid gear.

 

As a DPS you would get more benefit from stacking Endurance mods if you really want to survive. Increased HP means a guaranteed increase in TTL. Or you could just stack Str augments and passively increase HP. I'm all for DPS chucking on a shield and stance changing to offtank Jarg/Sorno, Fabricator or the second turret in EV when we run with 1 tank but they shouldn't run with the shield all the time because it lowers their effectiveness for very little increase in survivability.

 

Shields are good for tanks because we are always getting hit, so it procs frequently and reduces damage noticeably. DPS get hit infrequently and often a HoT or Sage AoE is enough to top them off. When they're most efficient heal is already enough to top you off you aren't saving them resources by reducing damage more. The opposite is actually true: you're increasing how many resources they have to use because the fight is being extended.

 

As a Guardian you already have plenty of survivability for "oh ****" moments. If you know you're going to need to tank beforehand, use tank gear. If you know you're going to DPS use DPS gear. If you have to swap mid fight for more than 15 seconds, then the fight is probably stuffed anyway and hybrid gear will rarely fix that unless you overgear it already, in which case the DPS set for tanking or the tank set for DPS would also have worked.

 

You need to realize that more people will read this than just you. I don't care what you do so long as it works for you. I do care what advice ends up on the forums because I don't want to see a new generation of bad tanks running around in hybrid gear and blaming their healers because they read on the forums that it works.

[GarfieldJL]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I could tank in pure DPS gear with a good healer. I'd be an energy sponge for my healer but it could work. Doesn't mean it should be done though. No one is saying you CAN'T do it, people are saying you SHOULDN'T. DPS are not tanks and tanks are not DPS.

 

You can get away with tanking in DPS spec/gear while leveling if you have a good healer or overlevel the content. You can also get away with tanking in DPS gear if you are with a good healer who overgears the content. However, if you run that content with a group who is all on level (or appropriate gear) you WILL NOT succeed when tanking in DPS/Hybrid gear.

 

As a DPS you would get more benefit from stacking Endurance mods if you really want to survive. Increased HP means a guaranteed increase in TTL. Or you could just stack Str augments and passively increase HP. I'm all for DPS chucking on a shield and stance changing to offtank Jarg/Sorno, Fabricator or the second turret in EV when we run with 1 tank but they shouldn't run with the shield all the time because it lowers their effectiveness for very little increase in survivability.

 

Shields are good for tanks because we are always getting hit, so it procs frequently and reduces damage noticeably. DPS get hit infrequently and often a HoT or Sage AoE is enough to top them off. When they're most efficient heal is already enough to top you off you aren't saving them resources by reducing damage more. The opposite is actually true: you're increasing how many resources they have to use because the fight is being extended.

 

As a Guardian you already have plenty of survivability for "oh ****" moments. If you know you're going to need to tank beforehand, use tank gear. If you know you're going to DPS use DPS gear. If you have to swap mid fight for more than 15 seconds, then the fight is probably stuffed anyway and hybrid gear will rarely fix that unless you overgear it already, in which case the DPS set for tanking or the tank set for DPS would also have worked.

 

You need to realize that more people will read this than just you. I don't care what you do so long as it works for you. I do care what advice ends up on the forums because I don't want to see a new generation of bad tanks running around in hybrid gear and blaming their healers because they read on the forums that it works.

 

You do realize that there is a shield generator that gives I think +40 power, and another one that gives +x amount crit... There are some shields that actually give some decent dps stats. I normally am using shien, all I have to do to switch into an emergency tank role is switch stances.

 

Believe it or not you don't need to be in sorseu for the shield to block out some hits.

 

As I indicated earlier, my gear setup is within a very narrow window, one wrong upgrade switch and I literally will see either my dps go through the floor for a small survivability increase, or my survivability go through the floor for just a little more dps.

[grallmate]

You do realize that there is a shield generator that gives I think +40 power, and another one that gives +x amount crit... There are some shields that actually give some decent dps stats. I normally am using shien, all I have to do to switch into an emergency tank role is switch stances.

 

Believe it or not you don't need to be in sorseu for the shield to block out some hits.

 

As I indicated earlier, my gear setup is within a very narrow window, one wrong upgrade switch and I literally will see either my dps go through the floor for a small survivability increase, or my survivability go through the floor for just a little more dps.

 

I do realize that. One of the things you're failing to realize is that higher tiered shields have a higher shield rating. What that shield rating translates to is more force power. Between Tionese and Campaign/BH thats +63 force power. Given your crafted shield has a lower rating that the Tionese the difference is going to be larger. Now if you compare the Campaign Shield to the Campaign Power Generator you get +217 extra force power. That is about 50% more force power then you get on the shield.

 

Comparing even Rakata Power Generator and Tionese shield (higher rating than what your using), the difference is +243 force power. Almost 50(!) bonus damage just from force power. Not to mention the higher strength and crit/surge.

 

I know that shields still work in Shien. I run in Shien for the Bonecrusher fight because there is no aggro table and DPS is more useful. I still see my shield going off all the time in that fight but I'm running optimized 61 mods so my shield chance in Shien is around 35%.

[NoaFlux]

I may be way off the mark here but you must consider the word "DPS".

 

For tanks there is some confusion with this word.

 

Damage Per Second can mean anything.

 

To me it means a tank equipped with POWER/WILLPOWER. To some people it means equipping a focus in addition and not having shield. You can have a shield and be DPS tank in a way by having non-absorb gear.

 

So my question is what kind of DPS are you talking about?

[GarfieldJL]

I do realize that. One of the things you're failing to realize is that higher tiered shields have a higher shield rating. What that shield rating translates to is more force power. Between Tionese and Campaign/BH thats +63 force power. Given your crafted shield has a lower rating that the Tionese the difference is going to be larger. Now if you compare the Campaign Shield to the Campaign Power Generator you get +217 extra force power. That is about 50% more force power then you get on the shield.

 

Comparing even Rakata Power Generator and Tionese shield (higher rating than what your using), the difference is +243 force power. Almost 50(!) bonus damage just from force power. Not to mention the higher strength and crit/surge.

 

I know that shields still work in Shien. I run in Shien for the Bonecrusher fight because there is no aggro table and DPS is more useful. I still see my shield going off all the time in that fight but I'm running optimized 61 mods so my shield chance in Shien is around 35%.

 

I'm aware of the higher force ratings, however that doesn't mean the upper tier gear is better, due to the wider variety of stat options that are available from the crafted shield generators.

[wadecounty]

I'm aware of the higher force ratings, however that doesn't mean the upper tier gear is better, due to the wider variety of stat options that are available from the crafted shield generators.

Yes it is, the upper tier also gives you far more secondary stats than the lower tier does.

 

Seriously, I have no idea what you're even trying to argue at this point. If your tank cannot hold aggro and you find yourself holding threat on the boss you're fighting, guess what, he's not a tank. Your group is already fail. If he can keep aggro, there is NO REASON FOR YOU TO HAVE ANY TANKING STATS WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING SHIELD/DEFENSE/ABSORPTION. None.

Edited August 27, 2012 by wadecounty

[GarfieldJL]

Yes it is, the upper tier also gives you far more secondary stats than the lower tier does.

 

Seriously, I have no idea what you're even trying to argue at this point. If your tank cannot hold aggro and you find yourself holding threat on the boss you're fighting, guess what, he's not a tank. Your group is already fail. If he can keep aggro, there is NO REASON FOR YOU TO HAVE ANY TANKING STATS WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING SHIELD/DEFENSE/ABSORPTION. None.

 

Sure there is...

 

In case you hadn't noticed there are quite a few bosses with insane area of effect attacks...

 

Anyways the endgame level shield generators may have higher stats in some areas than the 390 lvl purple shield generators, but the endgame gear overall has less stat boosts.

 

My shield generator boosts:

str

end

power

accuracy

presence

def

 

The accuracy boost alone means that I need 1 maybe 2 fewer accuracy upgrades to get to at least 100% melee accuracy. That means 1 to 2 upgrades that can center on additional defensive or offensive stats aside from accuracy.

 

Plus since I'm not in a group all the time, and actually use companion chars, having the presence boost is nice because it boosts the companion chars' effectiveness.

 

There are other options I could have chosen as well, heck there is likely a +crit, +surge version of the shield generator that I'm using.

 

I'm pulling at least 12% shield chance while in shien form, that's on top of my 15.66% defense chance. That's a 12% shield chance with a 20% damage reduction that I would lose if I went with a regular generator. If I could find decent surge boosts with the defense boost (which do exist but I have yet to see any endgame gear with it), then I would probably be using a regular generator.

[wadecounty]

I want to facepalm so hard right now.

 

If a boss hits you with an AOE, I can almost guarantee its yellow damage. Yellow damage cannot be shielded.

 

If you're gearing to be the best at soloing dailies, nobody cares. Anyone can do dailies. If you're talking about gearing for group content, you're doing it wrong. The end.

Edited August 27, 2012 by wadecounty

[nomoe]

sure it might seem great. yah im getting so many more stats than the higher end stuff. when really its yah im getting so many weak stats spread out that dont do me to good for most things

[GarfieldJL]

I want to facepalm so hard right now.

 

If a boss hits you with an AOE, I can almost guarantee its yellow damage. Yellow damage cannot be shielded.

 

If you're gearing to be the best at soloing dailies, nobody cares. Anyone can do dailies. If you're talking about gearing for group content, you're doing it wrong. The end.

 

I am well aware of that, this gear setup has worked in some hm ops too, I'm well aware of the AoE issues, which pure DPS guardians have similar issues with, that's the reason why I loaded up on defense in the first place...

 

I'm actually currently looking at some enhancements that would boost defense and surge, instead of shield and surge. If I decide to go that route I may ditch the shield generator in favor of a regular generator.

 

Right now though, I seem to be able to dish out a respectible dps, and can say that I can emergency off tank.

[JamieM]

I don't think you should even waste time thinking about this, especially if this is pertaining to pve content. There are very few fights where you will need to be switching in and out of tank mode. Wear tank gear if you will be tanking the entire time, wear dps gear if you are going to be dps.

 

I fully agree with the above. Don't even contemplate this tactic for another second if you want to remain beneficial to your raid group. Without sounding too harsh, your raid setup likely cannot afford it if you show up for a DPS slot wearing tank gear and most leaders would (wisely) boot you. Once you get to BH/Campaign gear you actually have to swap standard Vindicator armorings and mods out for Weaponmaster ones to get the most out of your DPS - the de facto itemisation is that bad. By further gimping yourself by wearing tank gear your contribution to meeting enrage timers would drop by several hundred DPS and probably be worse than that of your Assassin or Powertech tank (or the Republic equivalents).

 

In short, it's a fair question but better to leave the tanking to the actual tanks.

Edited August 28, 2012 by JamieM

[JamieM]

I am well aware of that, this gear setup has worked in some hm ops too, I'm well aware of the AoE issues, which pure DPS guardians have similar issues with, that's the reason why I loaded up on defense in the first place...

 

I'm actually currently looking at some enhancements that would boost defense and surge, instead of shield and surge. If I decide to go that route I may ditch the shield generator in favor of a regular generator.

 

Right now though, I seem to be able to dish out a respectible dps, and can say that I can emergency off tank.

 

Garfield you are still posting on these forums?! There is just no teaching you. I am genuinely intrigued to know if you are a member of a regular raid group because every time I see your posts on the Guardian forums I now expect to see you defending some utterly untenable position (stacking Defence on your DPS set) in the face of shere logic (not stacking defence on your DPS set). In that regard this particular thread doesn't disappoint!

Edited August 28, 2012 by JamieM

[grallmate]

Sure there is...

 

In case you hadn't noticed there are quite a few bosses with insane area of effect attacks...

 

Anyways the endgame level shield generators may have higher stats in some areas than the 390 lvl purple shield generators, but the endgame gear overall has less stat boosts.

 

My shield generator boosts:

str

end

power

accuracy

presence

def

 

The accuracy boost alone means that I need 1 maybe 2 fewer accuracy upgrades to get to at least 100% melee accuracy. That means 1 to 2 upgrades that can center on additional defensive or offensive stats aside from accuracy.

 

Plus since I'm not in a group all the time, and actually use companion chars, having the presence boost is nice because it boosts the companion chars' effectiveness.

 

There are other options I could have chosen as well, heck there is likely a +crit, +surge version of the shield generator that I'm using.

 

I'm pulling at least 12% shield chance while in shien form, that's on top of my 15.66% defense chance. That's a 12% shield chance with a 20% damage reduction that I would lose if I went with a regular generator. If I could find decent surge boosts with the defense boost (which do exist but I have yet to see any endgame gear with it), then I would probably be using a regular generator.

 

Ok, I'm now on the edge of just calling you names and walking away. Listen to logic.

 

- Group PvE (which this is about afaik) has ZERO benefit from Presence. You should NEVER choose presence over other stats for grouping. If you want presence, buy the Human legacy unlock and max your companions, don't use sub par gear.

- 12% shield chance with 20% absorb is a WHOPPING 2.4% reduction against damage that can be shielded.

- The difference in force power between a Tionese shield and a Rakata generator is ~50 bonus damage. Guaranteed to be more than 5% extra bonus damage.

- If you're using a 390 Artifice shield, the difference when using a Rakata generator is closer to 70 bonus damage.

- Dead things deal no damage. You kill it 20% faster and you take 20% less damage. So does your tank.

 

What it comes down to is: I'm really patient with players in game. If I came across you in a PuG I'd just leave (possibly whisper the healer to queue with me again for insta-pop). I'd rather run with a properly geared tank in DPS stance than someone intentionally gimping themselves with gear like yours. Atleast they know their role and how to fill it properly. You are on par with the DPS I see running in tank stance for 'increased survivability' while leveling who then wonder why they're getting killed by the mobs they pull of me.

[GarfieldJL]

Ok, I'm now on the edge of just calling you names and walking away. Listen to logic.

 

- Group PvE (which this is about afaik) has ZERO benefit from Presence. You should NEVER choose presence over other stats for grouping. If you want presence, buy the Human legacy unlock and max your companions, don't use sub par gear.

I don't have 15 different shield generators to swap out for every individual engagement... The shield generator also provides me with some accuracy and power stats... I do know there are a few other decent shield generator loadouts out there, but considering I got my current shield generator augmented and don't feel like paying a price gouging jerk for an augment upgrade or wasting a ton of crafting materials, hoping that a crafted gear piece will result in an augment slot, it's currently what I have.

 

Quite frankly I like being able to do things without having to switch gear.

 

- 12% shield chance with 20% absorb is a WHOPPING 2.4% reduction against damage that can be shielded.

 

You left out the Defense chance, in all assuming that the boss has a 100% accuracy rating, I'm looking at a 15.66% defense chance and a 12.5% shield chance. That translates to a 28.16% chance that I will either see no damage or a 20% damage mitigation.

 

Again my gear is multi-purpose, I like being able to do multiple things in the same gear.

 

- The difference in force power between a Tionese shield and a Rakata generator is ~50 bonus damage. Guaranteed to be more than 5% extra bonus damage.

 

Well of course a power generator of a better level will do better than a shield generator in the dps category...

 

- If you're using a 390 Artifice shield, the difference when using a Rakata generator is closer to 70 bonus damage.

 

A generator leave you rather open from a defensive standpoint, again my gear is put together so I can fulfill multiple roles without switching gear in the middle of an operation, flashpoint, daily mission, etc.

 

- Dead things deal no damage. You kill it 20% faster and you take 20% less damage. So does your tank.

I don't consider killing trash to be a valid measure in this department... Fact of the matter is, the harder critters can do enough damage to seriously endanger or even kill a pure dps guardian in 1 hit (without them being enraged). My armor upgrade slots are rakata and above, I've taken 11k to 12k hits from some ops, and my defense has negated some hits, that's with the target not being enraged. I think you would have taken more damage overall than I would have, difference is I would have walked away, and you wouldn't.

 

Fact of the matter is a pure DPS guardian is a glass canon, you do manage some impressive hits, but you are also extremely easy to kill.

 

What it comes down to is: I'm really patient with players in game. If I came across you in a PuG I'd just leave (possibly whisper the healer to queue with me again for insta-pop). I'd rather run with a properly geared tank in DPS stance than someone intentionally gimping themselves with gear like yours. Atleast they know their role and how to fill it properly. You are on par with the DPS I see running in tank stance for 'increased survivability' while leveling who then wonder why they're getting killed by the mobs they pull of me.

 

Nope, I've seen people like that before, and actually it used to be the tank stance was an effective dps stance due to the armor boost and damage mitigation. However, since the threat boost for sorseu, that attracts some rather undue attention to oneself.

 

Anyways, I always get nervous with a Guardian Tank being in the group, cause they are in my opinion the most worthless tank in the game. I know their weaknesses, and know how those weaknesses can get everyone killed in a PvE group.

 

I'm a dps, I am built to be able to switch to sorseu and emergency off tank if need be, I normally am in shien dps stance. As far as being in an op group with you, quite frankly I wouldn't want to be in an op group with you in any case. I do feel sorry for the healer when you start bashing him/her for the fact you died due to their bad healing, when the real reason is you got clobbered by 1 big hit.

 

I know how close I'm balanced on a knife's edge as far as my gear is concerned, I have got something that works currently.

 

I am in a pretty narrow window currently as far as my gear is concerned, in fact if I switch out my +41 crit crystal for a +41 endurance crystal, my dps goes through the floor. If I switch out 1 defense upgrade with 1 dps upgrade my ability to take hits goes through the floor.

 

There is more than one way to be an effective DPS guardian, you have your way, and I have mine. I will give you credit that you are able to get your way to work for you, but you need to give me credit for getting my own way to work for me.

Edited September 1, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[wadecounty]

I hope nobody listens to anything Garfield is typing. Everything he is saying is terrible information for newcomers, and will lead to people being crappy tanks AND crappy DPS.

[GarfieldJL]

I hope nobody listens to anything Garfield is typing. Everything he is saying is terrible information for newcomers, and will lead to people being crappy tanks AND crappy DPS.

 

*shrugs

 

I've already said that my gear is a balancing act in a very narrow window, and that 1 wrong upgrade will get you killed. If a new player wants to take the effort to try to duplicate what my gear does, that's their decision, however it is a lot of trial and error, and they should be prepared to have a lot of flops until they get the balance down.

 

As far as terrible information, weren't you one of the ones screaming that Guardians were overpowered back when even Bioware admitted that Guardians were underpowered...

 

Also when everyone else was whining about surge being nerfed I actually saw a damage boost cause I hadn't put all my eggs in the proverbial surge basket.

[grallmate]

I don't have 15 different shield generators to swap out for every individual engagement... The shield generator also provides me with some accuracy and power stats... I do know there are a few other decent shield generator loadouts out there, but considering I got my current shield generator augmented and don't feel like paying a price gouging jerk for an augment upgrade or wasting a ton of crafting materials, hoping that a crafted gear piece will result in an augment slot, it's currently what I have.

 

Quite frankly I like being able to do things without having to switch gear.

 

You left out the Defense chance, in all assuming that the boss has a 100% accuracy rating, I'm looking at a 15.66% defense chance and a 12.5% shield chance. That translates to a 28.16% chance that I will either see no damage or a 20% damage mitigation.

 

Again my gear is multi-purpose, I like being able to do multiple things in the same gear.

 

Well of course a power generator of a better level will do better than a shield generator in the dps category...

 

A generator leave you rather open from a defensive standpoint, again my gear is put together so I can fulfill multiple roles without switching gear in the middle of an operation, flashpoint, daily mission, etc.

 

I don't consider killing trash to be a valid measure in this department... Fact of the matter is, the harder critters can do enough damage to seriously endanger or even kill a pure dps guardian in 1 hit (without them being enraged). My armor upgrade slots are rakata and above, I've taken 11k to 12k hits from some ops, and my defense has negated some hits, that's with the target not being enraged. I think you would have taken more damage overall than I would have, difference is I would have walked away, and you wouldn't.

 

Fact of the matter is a pure DPS guardian is a glass canon, you do manage some impressive hits, but you are also extremely easy to kill.

 

Nope, I've seen people like that before, and actually it used to be the tank stance was an effective dps stance due to the armor boost and damage mitigation. However, since the threat boost for sorseu, that attracts some rather undue attention to oneself.

 

Anyways, I always get nervous with a Guardian Tank being in the group, cause they are in my opinion the most worthless tank in the game. I know their weaknesses, and know how those weaknesses can get everyone killed in a PvE group.

 

I'm a dps, I am built to be able to switch to sorseu and emergency off tank if need be, I normally am in shien dps stance. As far as being in an op group with you, quite frankly I wouldn't want to be in an op group with you in any case. I do feel sorry for the healer when you start bashing him/her for the fact you died due to their bad healing, when the real reason is you got clobbered by 1 big hit.

 

I know how close I'm balanced on a knife's edge as far as my gear is concerned, I have got something that works currently.

 

I am in a pretty narrow window currently as far as my gear is concerned, in fact if I switch out my +41 crit crystal for a +41 endurance crystal, my dps goes through the floor. If I switch out 1 defense upgrade with 1 dps upgrade my ability to take hits goes through the floor.

 

There is more than one way to be an effective DPS guardian, you have your way, and I have mine. I will give you credit that you are able to get your way to work for you, but you need to give me credit for getting my own way to work for me.

 

You are ignoring much of what I have written. By trading your shield for a generator you lose 2.4% survivability and gain OVER 50 bonus damage JUST FROM INCREASED FORCE POWER. Much higher when you factor in increased Strength, Power, Crit and/or Surge. Not to mention the increased HP from high Endurance. You are significantly reducing your DPS to get very little increased survivability. You would gain MORE survivability, from being Guarded, which might actually happen if you put out enough DPS to warrant it.

 

I don't really care about having Defence on gear, that's fine. Its not optimal but its not severely reducing your effectiveness. In fact, you'd probably benefit more from swapping your shield rating for Defence and using a generator. 2.4% is tiny, I believe you will get about 5% more Defence if you swap your shield rating for Defence. I don't have your rating numbers, so I can't give you a solid answer, but based on your percentages I think thats about right.

 

All DPS are glass cannons. DPS aren't meant to take hits, that's the tanks role. In terms of the big hits that kill you: those are crits. You can't shield crits so your shield is doing nothing for you there.

 

Most pulls in FPs have a much higher incoming damage than most boss fights. First pull in Red Reaper is a really good example of this. Fights like Mentor and Lorrick it is also VERY important to be putting out as much DPS as possible before you die to unshieldable damage.

 

Also, just to clarify: I am a Guardian TANK in full BiS gear (minus a 61 hilt). Guardians are far from the worst tanks, but there are lots of bad ones out there. The class is not as forgiving as Vanguard tanking because it has a lot less passive survivability and lower threat generation. I've only ever had to call for healing once, and that was because my enure was about to end and I was still under 40%

 

Finally: as I have mentioned previously. If it works for you and your guild, awesome. But that doesn't mean you should be telling other people to do it.

[Dalfurend]

I started lulzing when I saw presence on a shield generator... Or on any gear for that matter.

 

I have come to the conclusion that people have the right to play the game however they want. I am sure some people feel awesome being able to emergency tank and save the day! Even if that situation is rather rare, and they could probably do it without the extra tank gear...

 

But honestly, your contribution to the team will be severely lacking. Guardian dps is already lacking. It can keep up to an extent, but that's all. A good player of most other classes will surpass a good guardian.

 

I don't expect you to believe my words, so if you are really interested, download a parser, I would recommend MOX. Get the other dps on your team in it, and take a look at your damage in comparison. It'll open your eyes. You could also just parse your damage on one of the ops dummies on the bridge deck of the Gav. Post your numbers, I'll post mine, and you can decide for yourself if it still makes sense.

 

So yeah, let's just end this little debate now. The OP disappeared a long time ago anyway.

[Invictos]

I'd gladly heal for Defense Guardian in PvP recruit gear over a vigilance or hybrid Guardian in Columi tank gear.

 

How did you quote me and still not read the quote? A FEW pieces of tank gear is not going to give you those defensive stats. The difference in sheild is small enough to be lacklustre, but 19% defense is not enough to call yourself a tank for HM. My defense guardian had 22% as a fresh 50. If you can't tell the difference between 19% & 25% defense ~ you've never played a healing class.

 

IT IS HUGE.

 

Your defense is not 6% less than a defense specced tank it is (6/25 x 100) = 24% LOWER while vigilance specced in tank gear.

 

The problem with this entire line of discussion is that you're conflating full Vigilance Guardians with hybrid Vigilance/Defense tank builds. The former can tank, in a pinch, given appropriate gear -- because as others have noted, the bulk of a Guardian's survivability comes from Soresu and gear. To the extent that the Defense tree gives you extra survivability on top of Soresu, it does so indirectly -- by increasing your Focus generation, and by giving you an extra panic-button cooldown and an extra single-target control ability.

 

But hybrid tank builds don't have any cut-and-dried numerical survivability disadvantages, relative to Defense builds. There is no disparity between a hybrid's avoidance (defense) relative to a full-Defense build's avoidance, given equivalent gear. A full Defense build has a higher shield chance, but that's offset by the hybrid's extra damage resistance from Commanding Awe. (4% across the board at all times, and an extra 15% while Focused Defense is active.)

 

If anything, hybrid builds are more survivable, in numerical terms, than full Tank specs. And it's not close. (Unremitting, Commanding Awe, 33% more uptime on Blade Barrier.) Full Tank specs arguably compete through ease of resource management and extra ease in applying Sunder debuffs, but unless a given hybrid is piloted by a bad player, he shouldn't be any harder to heal, in principle. The reverse should be true, in fact.

 

In short, your numbers are irrelevant with respect to hybrid tanks. You are correct about full-Vigilance builds that swap to the tank role. But you erred in lumping both together.

[GarfieldJL]

I started lulzing when I saw presence on a shield generator... Or on any gear for that matter.

 

I have come to the conclusion that people have the right to play the game however they want. I am sure some people feel awesome being able to emergency tank and save the day! Even if that situation is rather rare, and they could probably do it without the extra tank gear...

 

But honestly, your contribution to the team will be severely lacking. Guardian dps is already lacking. It can keep up to an extent, but that's all. A good player of most other classes will surpass a good guardian.

 

I don't expect you to believe my words, so if you are really interested, download a parser, I would recommend MOX. Get the other dps on your team in it, and take a look at your damage in comparison. It'll open your eyes. You could also just parse your damage on one of the ops dummies on the bridge deck of the Gav. Post your numbers, I'll post mine, and you can decide for yourself if it still makes sense.

 

So yeah, let's just end this little debate now. The OP disappeared a long time ago anyway.

 

Well the situation is a little more complex than that:

 

The fact is it was the only shield generator i had available at the time when I spent all that money on augment slots, and don't feel like wasting money getting another shield generator augmented.

 

Additionally, I'm currently storing up unassembled offhands and mainhands to try to get enough hilts to actually be able to craft columi or better saber hilts...

 

2nd there is a Defense upgrade enhancement that also boosts surge, and I'm thinking about using that and then going with a generator, but I've only found 1 item thus far that actually has that enhancement (and that's on rakata tank robe torso). Most defense upgrades have shield enhancements on it, which it would make little since to be utilizing those enhancements without a shield generator.

 

There are a few minor alterations I do want to make.

Primarily, Rakata guardian armor mods on my bracers and belt, reason I used them is due to the fact that I was using might armor mods from the dailies so there was a small str boost with the switch, and a substancial endurance boost. So it didn't really hurt me to do the upgrade. Secondary is the idea to replace the defense/shield enhancements with defense/surge enhancements of rakata level or better, then outfitting a power generator or focus on my guardian of appropriate level.

 

However I need to get enough of those enhancements first.

 

Alternatively I could go with a shield generator that provides an added shield boost (or some other boost aside from presence).

 

As it stands my armor is constantly evolving, while what I have works right now, I do have possible plans for tweaking stuff.

[Dalfurend]

Out of curiosity, how are you actually comparing yourself before and after? From what I can see, correct me if I am wrong, you are just theorycrafting. I understand that you may not have a full set of dps gear to compare with your current armor, but from what I am also understanding, you think the mixing of gear (at the very least) does not have a significant impact on dps. So just show us one of your parses, and we can compare it to someone with a similar gear level to you.

 

You may want to consider that the shorter encounters are, the less likely the tank is going to die, and the less likely you will have to take over that role.

 

Whatever, talk is cheap. Show us a parse or stop pretending you know what you are talking about. If I am wrong, and you pull good enough dps, bow before you I will. Also, take a SS of your character sheet, showing your melee and force damage. Do it fully buffed with a stim

 

Upload you combat log here: http://www.torparse.com/upload

 

Once you do this, we can start talking about facts! You have the chance to prove what you are saying.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Dalfurend

[GarfieldJL]

Out of curiosity, how are you actually comparing yourself before and after? From what I can see, correct me if I am wrong, you are just theorycrafting. I understand that you may not have a full set of dps gear to compare with your current armor, but from what I am also understanding, you think the mixing of gear (at the very least) does not have a significant impact on dps. So just show us one of your parses, and we can compare it to someone with a similar gear level to you.

 

You may want to consider that the shorter encounters are, the less likely the tank is going to die, and the less likely you will have to take over that role.

 

Whatever, talk is cheap. Show us a parse or stop pretending you know what you are talking about. If I am wrong, and you pull good enough dps, bow before you I will. Also, take a SS of your character sheet, showing your melee and force damage. Do it fully buffed with a stim

 

Upload you combat log here: http://www.torparse.com/upload

 

Once you do this, we can start talking about facts! You have the chance to prove what you are saying.

 

I never said that I didn't think the gear setup doesn't affect my dps output, quite the contrary my max dps is probably lower than a pure dpser. I've never disputed that point. There will be some key tidbit that you may find of interest at the bottom of my post.

 

What I have been saying is that my DPS is still respectable and enough to get the job done...

 

We are using different operational requirements, the only way I got into hm flashpoints and story mode ops in the past was I could tell people that I was able to offtank, that's the only way a dps guardian could get into groups for a while. Secondly, when I was putting together an earlier version of this armor (pre-lvl 50) the armor I got from maelstrom prison (complete set) was all tank gear and I was a dps, so I spent a long time upgrading and switching to dps, which is where I came across the narrow window.

 

 

I pointed out earlier that I'm a DPS/emergency tank, there are times I have had to play tank for full hm flashpoints.

 

Your set up is to handle a particular mission requirement, which is straight up dps. My set up is DPS with the capability to switch over to playing a tank in under 3 seconds (without gear changes).

 

When you switch to sorseu to try to emergency tank you aren't fully utilizing sorseu's defensive traits, since you use a focus or generator.

 

 

Key items I'm currently working to change:

1. Replace the rakata level guardian armor mods in my bracers and belt with rakata level might armor mods (when I upped the armor from the daily might armor mod to the rakata guardian mod, I didn't lose any strength in the process (gained 3 str per upgrade, and it had a whole lot of endurance). Reason I had to use the guardian armor mods is cause people are charging 1 to 4 million for a might armor mod, I'm more of a casual gamer anymore, so that's outside of my budget range.

2. Finish upgrading gear so the columi level upgrades in certain slots are rakata or black hole level.

3. Actually get around to getting either my smuggler char or imperial agent char to complete their chapter 2.

4. Get the two +presence items replaced with something that boosts a more important stat, like more defense for instance, more power, more crit, surge, etc. Preferably with augment slots. Isn't a critical issue for me atm, but presence isn't helpful in a group op that you don't have your companion.

 

Currently I'm pulling:

Accuracy: 101%

Crit: without smuggler buff of nearly 28%, with smuggler buff it is nearly 33% (that is for melee), I'm getting a substancially higher crit for my blade storm, force sweep, and plasma brand attacks

Surge: I'm pulling nearly 70% in this rating (sitting somewhere between 69 and 70%, surprisingly when everyone was griping about surge being nerfed, I got a buff from the changes.

 

Defense: 15.66% currently, should go higher when I finish the upgrades

Shield Generator: is between 12 and 13% while in shien stance, it goes to 27 to 28% while in sorseu.

 

My damage ratings is in the low 900's range without any stim buffs, but I only have a rakata level might hilt atm, so this rating will go up as I continue to update the armor with black hole level upgrades.

 

 

I seem to recall that for a pure DPS you're looking for a 35% crit chance with the smuggler buff, I'm probably around 2.5% below that mark currently, so I'm not far off there. I also have over 69% surge, I think you guys have about 75% surge maybe slightly higher, but you use a lot more surge upgrades with an ever diminishing return rate.

 

Anyways, my gear saw a significant jump in usability when they released those pvp gear sets, instead of taking the credits, I took the complete set of pvp gear and used those relics instead of ones we can make or get from dailies.

+97 power for instance is nothing to take lightly, the +crit and +surge relic is rather impressive as well. That actually helped in the dps department considerably, I just wish there was a pve version of those kind of relics because it wouldn't surprise me if my damage is being slightly reduced due to expertise on those items.

Edited September 2, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[grallmate]

I give up Garfield, do what you want and ignore logic. A pure DPS set and a recruit Tank set would serve you better than your current set up. The ONLY downside is that if you swap mid fight you have lower survivability, but again: if a DPS needs to tank for longer than 20 seconds the fight is probably a wipe or trivial. Neither of which are really affected by your current gear set up.

 

There are very very few times when your slightly higher mitigation is going to make a difference. Even in Soresu your shield only reduces incoming damage by 6-7% but it also reduces your outgoing damage by (atleast) that much. Since you aren't likely to be reducing incoming damage (on non-trivial fights) below incoming HPS all you do is increase TTL but put out less DPS. So within your TTL you put out less net damage than if you had stayed full DPS with the reduced TTL from being DPS.

 

I'll I'm gonna say is: Enjoy being left out of HM EC because you can't afford to have a DPS who intentionally lowers their output.

[Dalfurend]

Dude, just show us a parse... We can see just how little the gear change would make, right?

 

And wow, you can switch to being an offtank in 3 seconds!? Hitting that soresu button must be pretty far away. I'll give it you, your tanking stats are better than mine, but if the tank - which would still have wwwaaayyy better stats than you - died... Yeah...

 

Also, your defensive stats really aren't that much better than guardians in dps gear... the most important damage reduction comes from the tanking stance, which increases damage reduction by about 15%, which everyone has.

 

Parse! You are losing cred man.

 

Edit:

Wow, you are full of surprises, but I will congratulate you. Yes, despite the expertise, the pvp relics are better than their pve counterparts, for pve. But I need to ask... Are you sure you want to lose 90 something defense for power? And again I ask, you say you gain a considerable dps boost, how do you even know that if you aren't parsing?

Edited September 3, 2012 by Dalfurend