They are already discussing milking the subscribers

[GalacticKegger]

But how do they justify removing content from subscribers one they stop subbing?

 

Under the LOTRO model subscribers KEPT all the content they had when they were subscribers once the game went F2P.

 

SWTOR is saying it will remove content from subscribers that stop subbing.

 

Which again makes it seem like a gouging have your cake and eat it model (for EA), by trying to hit players for stuff they should already own.

Actually, I lost everything in LOTRO when it added F2P because (according to Turbine) my account was listed as inactive during the transition. Seems a server consolidation was also part of the transition as well. So all of my original toons got nuked & I had to start everything from scratch. Turbine also wiped out my DDO character stable as well. Maybe I'm just unlucky in that regard. Edited August 21, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[SikrouDeco]

It had 2 paid expansions by the time it went F2P, the 2nd was just before it went F2P.

 

But people that had bought all that got to keep all that.

 

The also got to keep free zones that had been brought in as part of the books IIRC.

 

Moria - paid

Mirkwood - paid

Enedwaith - free

Rise of Isengard - paid

 

If you went FTP you lost access to some areas/quests you had access to with a paid sub.

Edited August 20, 2012 by SikrouDeco

[Goretzu]

Moria - paid

Mirkwood - paid

Enedwaith - free

Rise of Isengard - paid

 

If you went FTP yolu lost access to some areas/quests you had access to with a paid sub.

 

Siege of Mirkwood was paid for and you kept it too didn't you?

You kept access to the vanilla game too, all MoM, and the free zones already in too didn't you?

 

Which areas did you lose access too that you'd had access too before as a subscriber when it went F2P?

Edited August 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[maxilo]

I know the fans will come in and say... well its an expansion, of course we should pay extra for it. Sorry but 1 planet and a 5 level increase is not an expansion. Its a way to justify milking more money. This is the type of content that we should have gotten all along.

 

hmmm 1 planet and 5 levels is pretty much what i would expect as an expansion imo (ala wow, lotro etc)

pretty standard mmo business

[discosoc]

It had 2 paid expansions by the time it went F2P, the 2nd was just before it went F2P.

 

But people that had bought all that got to keep all that.

 

The also got to keep free zones that had been brought in as part of the books IIRC.

 

You're right, it was right after the 2nd expansion, not before.

 

At any rate, people kept access to the expansions that they paid for, which is exactly my point. The core game because free, but expansions were not. You had to pay for the expansions or have previously paid for them.

 

TOR has no expansions yet, and the core game is going to be free. The main difference is Bioware is limiting end game content for anyone who does not subscribe, which makes sense. There's nothing keeping you from subscribing and going about your MMO life as if nothing changed. In the event that you decide to stop, you still get to play the game, whereas if you were to stop now, you wouldn't even have that option.

[Wayshuba]

That is incorrect, or at least not an accurate argument. Read section 14 for more information.

 

I assume you are actually referring to Section 13, rather than 14 since 14 is the Export Control Laws.

 

That being said, it is still correct as Section 13 of the ToS says specifically that if you purchased the game then the terms of the EUALA apply.

 

If you are referring to the Rights and Reservations under the EUALA, you still have permanently purchased the perpetual license for the software, not requiring an on-going fee.

 

So, I was still correct in my first argument.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Wayshuba

[Goretzu]

hmmm 1 planet and 5 levels is pretty much what i would expect as an expansion imo (ala wow, lotro etc)

pretty standard mmo business

 

Hmm.... 10 levels and ~ 1/2 to the total the land mass of the vanilla game is more standard for a traditional MMORPG "expansion" historically.

 

1 planet and 5 levels is more mini-expansion/adventure pack.

[Goretzu]

You're right, it was right after the 2nd expansion, not before.

 

At any rate, people kept access to the expansions that they paid for, which is exactly my point. The core game because free, but expansions were not. You had to pay for the expansions or have previously paid for them.

 

TOR has no expansions yet, and the core game is going to be free. The main difference is Bioware is limiting end game content for anyone who does not subscribe, which makes sense. There's nothing keeping you from subscribing and going about your MMO life as if nothing changed. In the event that you decide to stop, you still get to play the game, whereas if you were to stop now, you wouldn't even have that option.

 

 

 

But the core game WON'T be free for subscribers that go F2P, which is what I'm saying, its very DIFFERENT to what happened in LOTRO (and along those lines there is actually nothing to say you will keep full access to any bought content either ).

 

It does indeed seem more like AoC's model.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[SikrouDeco]

Siege of Mirkwood was paid for and you kept it too didn't you?

You kept access to the vanilla game too, all MoM, and the free zones already in too didn't you?

 

Which areas did you lose access too that you'd had access too before as a subscriber when it went F2P?

 

SOA, Troll Shaws, Lonelands etc. Main book quests were still playable but not the side quests needed to level. I played from open beta, and ftp may have saved the game, but it ruined it also. It's a casual gamers hangout now. If you like to raid etc, it's a joke. You form a raid and some ftpr's join, they don't have access, etc etc.. You get microtransacted to death. It's like the beatles song "tax man". "If you drive a car I'll tax the street, if you ride a bike I'll tax your feet, cause I'm the tax man". If you want to play a game with no monthly sub try guild wars 2. There is a big difference to going ftp, and never having a monthly sub.

Edited August 20, 2012 by SikrouDeco

[discosoc]

I assume you are actually referring to Section 13, rather than 14 since 14 is the Export Control Laws.

 

That being said, it is still correct as Section 13 of the ToS says specifically that if you purchased the game then the terms of the EUALA apply.

 

So, I was still correct in my first argument.

 

Actually, i just looked again and the link Bioware has up seems outdated, so yours is probably more current

 

It's the Limitations of Warranty and Liability section. Basically says that the service is provided as-is and that Bioware provides the service on a "commercially reasonable" basis.

 

Giving away a game completely for free is hardly a commercially reasonable basis. They can charge whatever they want, whenever they want. The only legal recourse you have is to cancel your service and stop using it.

[SikrouDeco]

The new FTP has even been given a title.

 

Return of the Empire. A new day dawns for the Sith.

 

What you thought Bioware was pro republic? Fools...

[Soluss]

BW has bills to pay, employees to pay, stockholders to please.. you are going to pay for expansions. Sure once in a while there may be a freebie for paid subs, but it's totally acceptable top buy expansions or do without. That said they need to be good expansions, with at least 50 to 60 hours of playime or more needed to complete. If players can finish them in a weekend, then that would be bogus if they cost the usual $40.00 to $50.00. If anyone needs a frame of reference, Dragon Age origins (pc game from bioware) could be finished in a weekend (if you did not do side quests).

 

And thats what I envision Makeb to be. Its 1 planet and 5 levels. How long did Hoth take you, for instance?

 

Also 15 bucks a month, that we already pay, is suppose to include content updates. To date, we havent had much in line of content updating. To come out with an "expansion", after there has hardly been any content updates, to me is poor money grab.

[mothear]

But as things stand they won't be giving you coins to purchase them as a subscriber, they'll simply be giving you access as long as you ARE a subscriber.

 

Unlike LOTRO where you got the content you already had.

 

Nope you get 150 cartel coins per month of subs to 31st July, 200 after that, plus 1000 if you bought the CE.

 

My maths suggest that you will have 1500 assuming a mid November move to F2P

[Tuscad]

And thats what I envision Makeb to be. Its 1 planet and 5 levels. How long did Hoth take you, for instance?

 

Also 15 bucks a month, that we already pay, is suppose to include content updates. To date, we havent had much in line of content updating. To come out with an "expansion", after there has hardly been any content updates, to me is poor money grab.

 

They should have just started started the game out as B2P and then changed it to be subbed based when it wasn't doing well like it is now, at least then i wouldn't be wondering where the hell all of the money I have given them each month has gone.

[Goretzu]

Nope you get 150 cartel coins per month of subs to 31st July, 200 after that, plus 1000 if you bought the CE.

 

My maths suggest that you will have 1500 assuming a mid November move to F2P

 

If they in fact mean that you will have enough cartel coins to outright buy all the content you had access too as a subscriber as a new F2P player then fair enough.

 

However I'd be surprised if all that sold for as little as 1350 cartel coins, massively surprised in fact.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if a FP didn't go for much more than 1000.

[Taorus]

And thats what I envision Makeb to be. Its 1 planet and 5 levels. How long did Hoth take you, for instance?

 

Also 15 bucks a month, that we already pay, is suppose to include content updates. To date, we havent had much in line of content updating. To come out with an "expansion", after there has hardly been any content updates, to me is poor money grab.

 

and yet you felt the need to go off half cocked when you don't have a single clue as to what Makeb ETC will be\include.

[Wayshuba]

Actually, i just looked again and the link Bioware has up seems outdated, so yours is probably more current

 

It's the Limitations of Warranty and Liability section. Basically says that the service is provided as-is and that Bioware provides the service on a "commercially reasonable" basis.

 

Giving away a game completely for free is hardly a commercially reasonable basis. They can charge whatever they want, whenever they want. The only legal recourse you have is to cancel your service and stop using it.

 

I agree with you for the F2Pers. What I am saying is those of us who purchased and subbed for the game should keep what we already paid for when it goes F2P. If we were subbers up to that point, and opt to go F2P, then any future content should be purchased as normal under the model. If we maintain our subs, then future content should be provided as part of that sub. But, they should not be taking away stuff you already have paid for in any event and then expect you to pay for it again if you opt for the F2P route.

 

What I just described is exactly how LOTRO handled it. What you had already paid for you kept, but new stuff had to be purchased or was provided if you maintained a sub (or had purchased a lifetime sub). EA wants to take away stuff we have already paid for, unless we maintain a subscription. Which is complete bullocks.

[discosoc]

But the core game WON'T be free for subscribers that go F2P, which is what I'm saying, its very DIFFERENT to what happened in LOTRO (and along those lines there is actually nothing to say you will keep full access to any bought content either ).

 

It does indeed seem more like AoC's model.

 

LotRO went F2P long after having a successful sub only model with expansions. If you want to go down line by line and itemize what various people did or didn't get for "free" you'll just work yourself into a tizzy fit. The basic principle is the same, however. Give the core game away for free, but charge for new content and end-game stuff.

 

Stay subscribed if that's not good enough for you.

[Soluss]

They should have just started started the game out as B2P and then changed it to be subbed based when it wasn't doing well like it is now, at least then i wouldn't be wondering where the hell all of the money I have given them each month has gone.

 

You dont have to wonder... all that money went towards the new "expansion" and the F2P conversion

[Goretzu]

LotRO went F2P long after having a successful sub only model with expansions. If you want to go down line by line and itemize what various people did or didn't get for "free" you'll just work yourself into a tizzy fit. The basic principle is the same, however. Give the core game away for free, but charge for new content and end-game stuff.

 

Stay subscribed if that's not good enough for you.

 

But that's the point they aren't giving subscribers that bought the core game and paid a sub for it for 1 year the core game for free.

 

You only get it IF you continue your subscription, which is basically charging twice for the same thing.

 

 

In fact there's no guareentee under that system that if you subscribe and have to buy Makeb and then go F2P that you'll have full access to Makeb either.

[Durasturan]

You dont have to wonder... all that money went towards the new "expansion" and the F2P conversion

 

It's an especially interesting question when you consider that massive rounds of layoffs meant their expenses were not nearly as high as they had been previously.

 

So where exactly did this money go?

 

It didn't go to the people that built they game, they were all sacked. It didn't go into the game itself, updates have been sparse and few between.

 

So all that money went to EA and now after not investing back into their investment they are wondering why their investment is doing so poorly...

 

This whole thing really boggles my mind.

[discosoc]

I agree with you for the F2Pers. What I am saying is those of us who purchased and subbed for the game should keep what we already paid for when it goes F2P. If we were subbers up to that point, and opt to go F2P, then any future content should be purchased as normal under the model. If we maintain our subs, then future content should be provided as part of that sub. But, they should not be taking away stuff you already have paid for in any event and then expect you to pay for it again if you opt for the F2P route.

 

What I just described is exactly how LOTRO handled it. What you had already paid for you kept, but new stuff had to be purchased or was provided if you maintained a sub (or had purchased a lifetime sub). EA wants to take away stuff we have already paid for, unless we maintain a subscription. Which is complete bullocks.

 

The thing is, TOR hasn't really been around long enough to for any of us to pay for anything. LotRO had several expansions worth of content, so grandfathering some people in based upon what they subscribed to (meaning they purchased the xpacs) was relevant.

 

With TOR, the only thing that qualifies is end-game stuff like PVP warzones, HM's, and Ops. If TOR was several years old and had a level cap of 60 or 70 now, I could see Bioware giving away older end-game content like Turbine did. TOR is still fairly new, however, and going F2P doesn't mean it's becoming a non-profit charity.

 

Maybe people feel cheated out of paying 50 dollars for a boxed game that becomes free less than a year later; that's a valid complaint. Bioware might decide to reward people who did purchase the game with a chunk of CP or something, who knows. Honestly, I didn't expect them to give away a free month of gameplay earlier this year, but they did. I'm just not holding my breath for it, and I certainly don't expect it to happen from a business stand point.

[Soluss]

and yet you felt the need to go off half cocked when you don't have a single clue as to what Makeb ETC will be\include.

 

Its 1 planet and 5 levels. How long it take you to get from 45 -50. Took me 2 days. Go ahead and pay extra for that, I dont care. To you its money well spent and to me and alot of others its not. To me, its content that we should have gotten all along. See my sig. That was a dev statement... month after month after month... its going to be exciting! Thats what my sub was suppose to pay for. Its not anything close to what we have gotten. 4 months now and we have gotten 1 half baked non repeatable world event.

[discosoc]

But that's the point they aren't giving subscribers that bought the core game and paid a sub for it for 1 year the core game for free.

 

You only get it IF you continue your subscription, which is basically charging twice for the same thing.

 

 

In fact there's no guareentee under that system that if you subscribe and have to buy Makeb and then go F2P that you'll have full access to Makeb either.

 

How is that any different than what you are getting today, right now? It's how MMO sub models work. You pay for the game, and you pay to keep playing it. If you stop paying, you can't keep playing.

 

They are actually doing you a service by giving you ANY access at all to the game when you no longer subscribe.

[Andryah]

In fact there's no guareentee under that system that if you subscribe and have to buy Makeb and then go F2P that you'll have full access to Makeb either.

 

Conversely, there is no guarantee you won't have full acces either.

 

I encourage not getting upset on speculation that is unconfirmed