Roles in Rated Warzones?

[Ruction]

I've constantly been hearing many different views on which classes are and aren't viable as well as which classes are useful for what, so I'd like to find out from players who have actually done Rated Warzones.

(Feel free to post if you haven't done Rated Warzones or don't have a decent rating, but please say that somewhere in your post. I'm looking for answers from people that have good ratings and gear.)

 

1) What classes do and do not have defined roles? For example, what is the role of a pure dps such as a Sniper/GS or Sentinel/Mara in Rated Warzones?

 

2) Which classes are the most wanted in Rated Warzone groups right now, and why?

 

3) What are classes that you WOULD NOT bring to a rated Warzone group with you?

 

Once again, I'm looking for the opinion of High/Moderately High Rated people, but anyone is free to post, just make sure you include that you either don't do Rateds or haven't gotten a high rating yet.

[BiggDirty]

<- 2300

 

Due to the structure of the current warzones, the name of the game in rateds is survivability. Logically, you'd think that a team of healers and tanks would be king, but SWTOR is a strange game in the sense that a lot of the dps classes are very "tanky", and therefore you can get the best of both worlds if you stack the right classes.

 

The only desirable classes currently are:

 

Sentinel (at least 1 must be combat spec for 80% speed buff)

 

Assault Vanguard

 

Shadow in tank stance with dps gear. Mostly 23/1/17 although a 31/0/10 build is acceptable as well.

 

Scoundrel healer

 

Guardian, tank / dps hybrid

 

-----------------------------

 

As far as actual makeup goes, we prefer 2 shadows, 2 scoundrels, 2 sents, 1 vanguard, and 1 other dps.

 

The last dps spot CAN go to a gunslinger, but we definitely prefer sent, guardian, or vanguard.

 

This makeup covers all bases essentially. Your healers will be incredibly difficult to kill due to 3 or 4 of your team having access to taunt, AOE taunt, two guards, 3 pulls, and a buttload of CC.

 

We've had games of huttball where our carrier literally has 8 fully geared players trying to burn him down, and he is taking almost zero damage. You simply cannot DPS through guard, taunt, slow time, and constant CC's and peels. That's 85% damage reduction.

 

On the offensive side of things, your 2 shadows, although they are there primarily for guard/taunt purposes, can also provide very respectable front loaded damage in the form of auto crit projects and FiB's. When you combine this with the ridiculous front loaded burst of your sents and vanguards, it's extremely difficult for your opponent to react fast enough to target switches. If they are not on the ball with their guard switches and taunts, there is no way for their focus target to survive. This is assuming that they even have the correct makeup, which 99% of the time they do not.

 

Assuming you can get the lead in civil war / novare, it's almost impossible for the enemy to take a node from you. Your 2 shadows and 2 scoundrels are so difficult to kill, that the opponent almost has no choice but to try and target switch to one of your dps. However, this does not work either because your sents will simply pop GBTF and force camo, which is a get out of jail free card in rateds. Even if they do manage to wipe your group, and that's a big *if*, they will never be able to do it quickly enough before you respawn and interrupt their cap.

 

This concept also carries over to voidstar. By leaving a shadow/scoundrel or shadow/sent combo on each side, the enemy will never be able to wipe you fast enough considering your sents will always have 80% speed ready to go, in case they need to respond to a side switch. Not only that, if the enemy manages to wipe you on one side, you have FOUR classes who can simply vanish, and then pop out and interrupt while the rest of your team waits for the spawn door to open.

 

In huttball, you will have at least 3 pulls, 4 knockbacks, at least 3 leaps, and constant 80% speed. The only thing you're missing is sage friendly pull, but that's a small price to pay for not having such a squishy liability on your team.

 

What classes won't we bring? Basically anything that isn't on the above list. If we are desperate, we will take a gunslinger or healing sage, but definitely not more than one.

 

Commandos, dps sages, dps scoundrels, and infiltration shadows are absolutely out of the question. These classes bring nothing to the table that the above classes don't already bring and then some.

[Ruction]

Thank you very much, this is exactly the information that I was looking for. Check your forum inbox please.

[Bolanos]

Commandos, dps sages, dps scoundrels, and infiltration shadows are absolutely out of the question. These classes bring nothing to the table that the above classes don't already bring and then some.

 

And this is why I have so much trouble finding a ranked pvp group to get into <sigh>

[foxmob]

And this is why I have so much trouble finding a ranked pvp group to get into <sigh>

 

lol yeah. commando healers are serviceable at least. but not optimal by a long shot. I think the aforementioned optimized grp has one too many stealthers. I'd use a second assault van or sentinal and take my chances w/o the 2 stealths each side.

[Pistols]

Commandos, dps sages, dps scoundrels, and infiltration shadows are absolutely out of the question. These classes bring nothing to the table that the above classes don't already bring and then some.

 

Yeah....no. I lol'd though.

 

OP, good players behind the class composition make Rateds teams good, period. While some classes offer better utility than others, mainly Commando DPS (however fully geared hits hard), you put 8 solid peeps together (who understand OBJECTIVE based PvP) and I promise they will do fine 90% of the time. Don't buy into the hype of (not this class, not this spec, only this). I freakin giggled at the DPS Scoundrel/Sage comment of a no-no...total derp lol.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pistols

[TonyDragonflame]

When such teams join to regular wz, pug players hate game and go to unsub.

[Yeochins]

Yeah....no. I lol'd though.

 

OP, good players behind the class composition make Rateds teams good, period. While some classes offer better utility than others, mainly Commando DPS (however fully geared hits hard), you put 8 solid peeps together (who understand OBJECTIVE based PvP) and I promise they will do fine 90% of the time. Don't buy into the hype of (not this class, not this spec, only this). I freakin giggled at the DPS Scoundrel/Sage comment of a no-no...total derp lol.

 

I chuckled at this.

 

Given two players of equal calibre in Mechanics, Decision Making and awareness, the advantage goes towards select classes.

 

Similarly given two teams that have the same level of skill the advantage goes to the optimized team composition because the classes are mechanically superior.

[drahzaar]

Unfortunately biggdirty's post looks correct :/

[Pistols]

I chuckled at this.

 

Given two players of equal calibre in Mechanics, Decision Making and awareness, the advantage goes towards select classes.

 

Similarly given two teams that have the same level of skill the advantage goes to the optimized team composition because the classes are mechanically superior.

 

I agree most classes offer more utility than others ( I said as much, namely the Commando DPS class), however if you think any other class is an impediment (provided the group make-up is optimal), you simply cannot claim equal footing in the bold. I wouldn't say, roll 8 Marauders, or 6 Maruaders/2 Ops healers like some believe would be auto-win. However, there is no doubt 2 healers/1 Shadow tank/1 Sentinel is the norm atm, as these offer the utility needed. But for the most part any 4 DPS class's can fill the next 4 slots.

 

I'm not talking 4 Scoundrel DPS'ers here, but a mindful mix of any 4 would fine. The Rateds come down to objectives, and those who can execute as a team. It's amazing how many people think DPS wins the games in Rateds, it simply amuses me to say the least. While DPS plays a key role, a group who knows how to utilize an assist train, switch targets effectively, knows how to rotate, and WHEN to CC, etc will do just fine. It's been done already.

 

Edit: One more thing, the reason the bold doesn't concern our team as much, is that it is rare to find similar teams that play that high of a level, the few who did left. If there were more teams we had to go up against that fit our teams level of skill, perhaps we would have to make a few changes, so I'll grant you that in regards to narrowing down the profession field. ATM though, it seems a futile effort to even worry about that, since it's not an issue for us atm.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pistols

[CharterMonkKent]

I chuckled at this.

 

Given two players of equal calibre in Mechanics, Decision Making and awareness, the advantage goes towards select classes.

 

Similarly given two teams that have the same level of skill the advantage goes to the optimized team composition because the classes are mechanically superior.

 

rated or not this is unfortunately the case. skill being equal some classes have more to offer than others in their role. It looks like new skills are coming soon though (as seen in the new WZ video posted in another forum).

 

For instance Merc dps can become epic with just 1 or 2 changes. Power Shield alone would make arsenal sexy

[Pistols]

rated or not this is unfortunately the case. skill being equal some classes have more to offer than others in their role. It looks like new skills are coming soon though (as seen in the new WZ video posted in another forum).

 

For instance Merc dps can become epic with just 1 or 2 changes. Power Shield alone would make arsenal sexy

 

I edited my last post with this:

 

Edit: One more thing, the reason the bold doesn't concern our team as much, is that it is rare to find similar teams that play that high of a level, the few who did left. If there were more teams we had to go up against that fit our teams level of skill, perhaps we would have to make a few changes, so I'll grant you that in regards to narrowing down the profession field. ATM though, it seems a futile effort to even worry about that, since it's not an issue for us atm.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pistols

[CharterMonkKent]

I edited my last post with this:

 

Edit: One more thing, the reason the bold doesn't concern our team as much, is that it is rare to find similar teams that play that high of a level, the few who did left. If there were more teams we had to go up against that fit team level of skill, perhaps we would have to make a few changes, so I'll grant you that in regards to narrowing down the profession field. ATM though, it seems a futile effort to even worry about that, since it's not an issue for us atm.

 

one item that really stands out (for me at least) when choosing the fillin toons in the group... dps off taunts. As of right now I'd lean towards a DPS with off taunts than one without. Unless the dps filler has great utility to offer, like engineer/saboteur.

 

is it wrong that after all my time in game I find dps off taunts better than dps off heals? maybe that's because they are off globals, not sure. Just my feel is that they are more useful utility wise

[Pistols]

one item that really stands out (for me at least) when choosing the fillin toons in the group... dps off taunts. As of right now I'd lean towards a DPS with off taunts than one without. Unless the dps filler has great utility to offer, like engineer/saboteur.

 

is it wrong that after all my time in game I find dps off taunts better than dps off heals? maybe that's because they are off globals, not sure. Just my feel is that they are more useful utility wise

 

Agreed, the DPS off taunts are pretty win, considering peeling is a full-time job. With the variety of maps, I just can't claim one particular group is better than all, especially when players behind the classes are more important than the class themselves (most of them anyways lol). I don't think BiggDirty is wrong by any means, as he is comparing a team composition to another team with equal skill, which in that case I do agree classes will have an impact.

 

However, since that rarely comes into play, the team that knows the map and the objectives better should win out. We all know some classes need help, some classes have more utility than others while doing the same amount of DPS, but I've seen powerful teams pull off wins on other similar teams using mixed matches of classes, simply because they know how to play as a team and do well with all the other bells and whistles of just flat out being good.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pistols

[RogueNights]

The first response to this thread was basically dead on. I Kinda agree with the later post though that often the impact of skill impacts the game more than class composition... will point out that skilled teams tend to be balanced as well, and tend to play alot relatively. Thus although there may be alot of teams w/ variety out there, there is a good chance that you'll be playing against the same old ops, pts, and maras. At least from my experience.

[BiggDirty]

Actually I agree with Pistols. However, I was speaking in terms of 2500+ play. The level of competition in SWTOR is so low at the moment, that you can get away with any combination of dps, and achieve pretty good succcess, as he said.

 

But if you want to beat STS (the best team on Pistol's server) consistently, you'd better consider dropping those dead weight classes, because every bit of advantage you can squeeze out is going to matter.

[Tyrias]

one item that really stands out (for me at least) when choosing the fillin toons in the group... dps off taunts. As of right now I'd lean towards a DPS with off taunts than one without. Unless the dps filler has great utility to offer, like engineer/saboteur.

 

is it wrong that after all my time in game I find dps off taunts better than dps off heals? maybe that's because they are off globals, not sure. Just my feel is that they are more useful utility wise

 

It's not wrong at all.

 

For all intents and purposes, off taunts generally have no cost, are off the GCD and their effects are roughly equal to their tank specced equivalent, there are just less of them to use. Off healing on the other hand tends to cost the user hugely in terms of resources (and extra cast time), and often has very sub-standard output when compared to actual healing.

[Pistols]

Actually I agree with Pistols. However, I was speaking in terms of 2500+ play. The level of competition in SWTOR is so low at the moment, that you can get away with any combination of dps, and achieve pretty good succcess, as he said.

 

But if you want to beat STS (the best team on Pistol's server) consistently, you'd better consider dropping those dead weight classes, because every bit of advantage you can squeeze out is going to matter.

 

We've beaten STS with some of the classes you wouldn't take. And yes, we're mostly a 2500 team.

 

But as you said, there just isn't enough competitive teams running anymore, as EA's only agenda is to run off all the PvP talent as fast as they possible can.

[TheronFett]

Given two players of equal calibre in Mechanics, Decision Making and awareness, the advantage goes towards select classes....Similarly given two teams that have the same level of skill the advantage goes to the optimized team composition because the classes are mechanically superior.

 

Not true at all.

 

The classes are balanced, except for a few minor tweaks. You seem to lack understanding in team/objective based play. Don't feel bad, 95% of the posters on this forum don't get it either.

 

People need to rid themselves of the 1vs1 deathmatch mentality where every class is capable of taking down anyone on the battlefield. It doesn't work that way in TOR. You play as a team and work together, or you lose in rated PvP. Our rated team consistently swaps out players/classes and still manages to win all the time.

 

Controlling the pace of the match and coordination is what wins. Not classes.

Edited August 17, 2012 by TheronFett

[Pistols]

Not true at all.

 

The classes are balanced, except for a few minor tweaks. You seem to lack understanding in team/objective based play. Don't feel bad, 95% of the posters on this forum don't get it either.

 

People need to rid themselves of the 1vs1 deathmatch mentality where every class is capable of taking down anyone on the battlefield. It doesn't work that way in TOR. You play as a team and work together, or you lose in rated PvP. Our rated team consistently swaps out players/classes and still manages to win all the time.

 

Controlling the pace of the match and coordination is what wins. Not classes.

 

After reading this, I had a tingle in my pants, and wish to make-out with you.

 

[CharterMonkKent]

Not true at all.

 

The classes are balanced, except for a few minor tweaks. You seem to lack understanding in team/objective based play. Don't feel bad, 95% of the posters on this forum don't get it either.

 

People need to rid themselves of the 1vs1 deathmatch mentality where every class is capable of taking down anyone on the battlefield. It doesn't work that way in TOR. You play as a team and work together, or you lose in rated PvP. Our rated team consistently swaps out players/classes and still manages to win all the time.

 

Controlling the pace of the match and coordination is what wins. Not classes.

 

I think he is speaking of balance in the manner that Pistols and I were discussion. I could be wrong. But I just got out of a very boring meeting so I want to post something.

 

Why use a filler DPS that has no off taunts?

 

I don't want to get into specifics but I was filling the last two DPS spots on the team and my options were (considering 100% dps balance, that's another discussion):

Rage Jugg

Rage Mara

PT Pyro

Merc Pyro

 

The Jugg and the PT are more advantageous because their off taunts.

[Yeochins]

Not true at all.

 

The classes are balanced, except for a few minor tweaks. You seem to lack understanding in team/objective based play. Don't feel bad, 95% of the posters on this forum don't get it either.

 

People need to rid themselves of the 1vs1 deathmatch mentality where every class is capable of taking down anyone on the battlefield. It doesn't work that way in TOR. You play as a team and work together, or you lose in rated PvP. Our rated team consistently swaps out players/classes and still manages to win all the time.

 

Controlling the pace of the match and coordination is what wins. Not classes.

 

People need to start understanding that the 1 versus 1 deathmatch scenario makes and breaks rated teams class composition. If a class 1 on 1 is superior than another then said person can force unfair trades to an off-point. The moment a class is unviable in 1 versus 1 they become dead weight at holding or forcing movement to capture objectives.

 

You fail to understand to capture any point in a rated game you have to imbalance your opponites to gain a numerical advantage at the desired point to capture. If a class is mechanically inferior (Sorcerer DPS and Commando DPS versus PT, Marauder, Tank assassin) you cannot force that numerical advantage. Why does another team need to send 2 people when one is sufficient enough?

 

 

Don't feel bad that you again are with the 50% of people who don't understand how class mechanics affect strategy and the ability to win.The moment you understand how trading people works in PvP you will suddenly realize everything you say is 100% complete nonsense.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Yeochins

[Pistols]

People need to start understanding that the 1 versus 1 deathmatch scenario makes and breaks rated teams class composition. If a class 1 on 1 is superior than another then said person can force unfair trades to an off-point. The moment a class is unviable in 1 versus 1 they become dead weight at holding or forcing movement to capture objectives.

 

You fail to understand to capture any point in a rated game you have to imbalance your opponites to gain a numerical advantage at the desired point to capture. If a class is mechanically inferior (Sorcerer DPS and Commando DPS versus PT, Marauder, Tank assassin) you cannot force that numerical advantage. Why does another team need to send 2 people when one is sufficient enough?

 

 

Don't feel bad that you again are with the 50% of people who don't understand how class mechanics affect strategy and the ability to win.The moment you understand how trading people works in PvP you will suddenly realize everything you say is 100% complete nonsense.

 

I chuckled at this.

[MidichIorian]

Not true at all.

 

The classes are balanced, except for a few minor tweaks. You seem to lack understanding in team/objective based play. Don't feel bad, 95% of the posters on this forum don't get it either.

 

People need to rid themselves of the 1vs1 deathmatch mentality where every class is capable of taking down anyone on the battlefield. It doesn't work that way in TOR. You play as a team and work together, or you lose in rated PvP. Our rated team consistently swaps out players/classes and still manages to win all the time.

 

Controlling the pace of the match and coordination is what wins. Not classes.

First, 95 % of the posters on these forums arent refering to rateds. While it is possible to swap some classes in rateds I highly doubt that the best teams started out with 2 sorcs and 2 dps mercs and built on that. Most teams will pick a few "must have" classes and then build on that, usually with the intent of avoiding some AC'es.

 

Anyhow, rated, while being the most competitive form, is probably also the one where you have the biggest chance of being successful with a less optimal class. Simply because you have seven people around you who you can count on. It is way worse in normal warzones.

And let's not pretend that pug zones are coordnated, because that only happens once in a 1000 games, but regardless of the lack of coordination it's pretty much a given that you will be targeted by more than one player from time to time. There's nothing you can do to avoid that, it happens. This is where some classes, classes that lack an escape, interrupt or simply are too squishy, are screwed. Those classes need to be given either an escape ability, like some other classes have, or enough dps to make up their other shortcomings.

 

That said, the biggest problem right now isnt the classes in themselves, although some are more favorable than others, but the fact that so many have re-rolled to what people refer to as FotM classes. It makes it really hard for the weaker AC'es/trees to keep up in warzones.

Edited August 17, 2012 by MidichIorian

[BiggDirty]

People need to start understanding that the 1 versus 1 deathmatch scenario makes and breaks rated teams class composition. If a class 1 on 1 is superior than another then said person can force unfair trades to an off-point. The moment a class is unviable in 1 versus 1 they become dead weight at holding or forcing movement to capture objectives.

 

You fail to understand to capture any point in a rated game you have to imbalance your opponites to gain a numerical advantage at the desired point to capture. If a class is mechanically inferior (Sorcerer DPS and Commando DPS versus PT, Marauder, Tank assassin) you cannot force that numerical advantage. Why does another team need to send 2 people when one is sufficient enough?

 

 

Don't feel bad that you again are with the 50% of people who don't understand how class mechanics affect strategy and the ability to win.The moment you understand how trading people works in PvP you will suddenly realize everything you say is 100% complete nonsense.

 

I don't even know what to say to this....

 

By your logic, hybrid operatives are unstoppable in rateds.

 

1v1 viability is 100% irrelevant in rateds, so what you said is basically the exact opposite of reality. Talk about misguided.