Recruit vs. Rakata for starting PvP

[Order-Sixty-Six]

This shouldn't be a discussion of Rakata Vs Recruit, lets phrase this as rakata vs war hero and recruit vs war hero.

 

Even if rakata is better than recruit, war hero is going to annihilate them much quicker than they would recruit.

[L-RANDLE]

This shouldn't be a discussion of Rakata Vs Recruit, lets phrase this as rakata vs war hero and recruit vs war hero.

 

Even if rakata is better than recruit, war hero is going to annihilate them much quicker than they would recruit.

True, but the topic is what it is. Either way you slice it, Rakata will and should give you better damage potential against a WH player, than recruit gear will. OP is saying, "How the hell is that possible since I am in BM/WH?". The OP observations are backed up by my math contributions as to how it is possible. So I guess we can put the heal/damage to rest.

Now,

Why would a WH "annihilate them" any slower in recruit gear? Wait, I know... 14% Mitigation on 6k crits.

 

The price? 3-4K HP please.

 

TTK being what it is, 14% mitigation on recruit gear is a drop in the bucket compared to losing that much HP. The OP said "he had more kills and less deaths", which I assume he was comparing his stats to the RAK player. So given the same relative skill level, there was no difference between the OP @ 1200EXP versus 0EXP player.

 

Here is the concept, imagine these lines are HP and TTK is the time it takes to get from one end to another:

1.

DEAD ________________________ ALIVE

 

2.

DEAD __________________________________________________ ALIVE

 

 

 

1st line= Recruit

2nd line= Rakata

Given the same WH player with the appoximate same attacks/dicerolls, who dies first?

Hint: Can a recruit take 3 crits from a WH? Can a RAK?

Hint 2: Some RAK players have 50% more HP than they would in Recruit (well north of 6K more, I think Oredith had almost a 10K advantage).

 

It's well accepted that Recruits die in three or four GCD when up against certain classes/WH. Would a RAK player? Doubt it. Even if you could do it in the same timeframe, it still proves my point that HP just as good for mitigation as EXP mitigation, because the TTK is identical. Only when being consistantly healed is when it might matter, but even the most powerful HoTs are only hundreds of HP being added back.

 

So let's review,

In regards to Recruit or RAKATA V. WH:

Damage and Heals are worst.

Mitigation is questionable (at best).

 

Take the PvE gear.

Edited August 17, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[randalthorr]

yeah!! if your not in recruit gear, Im not healing you. Makes it harder for us/them.

[L-RANDLE]

yeah!! if your not in recruit gear, Im not healing you. Makes it harder for us/them.

 

Isn't it inherently "hard" to keep a recruit up as well? Just by attention alone, they are "harder" than a Rakata player because you have to babysit their HP 100% of the time, otherwise they are dead. Am I wrong with that assumption? You don't even worry about healing any players(unless "topping off") until you see their HP @50% or less. That means the the Rakata player lasted more globals to get to 50% versus a recruit to get to 50%. Is it "easier" to bring them back to full HP during a battle? Maybe, but I don't see it. I actually have seen some posts where geared healers don't even bother healing recruits because its a lost cause. Recruits are TP that fell in and healers are reaching in, trying to salvage them back to usefulness.

 

It is hard to even justify it on that level, that's why I said it's questionable because your are not being healed 100% of the time and it is damn near impossible to save another player if they are on the brink of dying anyway. Healers are focused on so hardcore that they never can be healing you and only you 100% the time. Do you guys understand how many attacks it would take to make up a 50% gap in HP? Roughly 3 additional globals given the same person/rotation of attacks, and that is being nice about it.

Edited August 17, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[grallmate]

I'm one of those 'n00bs' you guys all see running around in PVE gear in WZ. I roll a Rakata/BH properly itemised Guardian tank. Using my PvE gear I die 3 times in a bad WZ. Usually though, I finish with 0 or 1 death, 100k+ protection and 100k+ damage. In my Recruit gear I'm lucky to die less than 10 times, score more than 50k damage and get more than 50k protection on a good day.

 

I get shredded by full WH Pyro PTs either way but I can stand toe to toe with a full WH Mara in my PvE gear and I can't in my recruit. I won't kill him, but he won't kill me for close to 30 seconds either.

 

In my experience, properly itemized Rakata is definitely better than recruit and about on par with BM. That or I'm just a ninja and make up for the difference with skill. But I use PvE gear so I'm obviously a n00b. PvPers: pick your poison.

[Zoam]

I have always been in the belief that if you're going to do PvP, wear PvP gear. After some reading I found out that the WH relic is actually BiS for PvE for my sniper who I haven't PvPed on since January. Before I went and spent the money on the Recruit gear I played a round in my itemized BH gear.

 

Spent the whole match guarding mid in a CW and was second in damage only to the other sniper that is in full augmented WH gear. If I was wearing Recruit gear, there is no way that I would have been able to burst down players as fast as I was. I would've also had about 7k less health in Recruit gear.

 

From now on when I see someone in a WZ with Rakata or better PVE gear instead of Recruit, I won't think they're going to be nothing but a hindrance. Although, those people in Tionese/Columni/Leveling gear will still get my ire and no heals.

[Maraxuss]

isn't it really a moot point, because the vote kicks begin the moment someone realizes that someone is wearing pve gear, when the starter set of pvp gear is free? and even if not the pve'er will get shat talked so much in the game and general chat that they become known as the pvp noob, that will not conform and cost the team matches, and who wants there character or legacy totally borked like that?????

[Darth_Philar]

isn't it really a moot point, because the vote kicks begin the moment someone realizes that someone is wearing pve gear, when the starter set of pvp gear is free? and even if not the pve'er will get shat talked so much in the game and general chat that they become known as the pvp noob, that will not conform and cost the team matches, and who wants there character or legacy totally borked like that?????

 

1. Vote Kick is for AFK only. Anyone who is participating cannot be kicked (being in combat or getting objective points will prevent the kick, even if every other person in the WZ votes to kick).

 

2. Smack talk in general chat means nothing when the final scoreboard shows up.

[Maraxuss]

1. Vote Kick is for AFK only. Anyone who is participating cannot be kicked (being in combat or getting objective points will prevent the kick, even if every other person in the WZ votes to kick).

 

2. Smack talk in general chat means nothing when the final scoreboard shows up.

 

Never knew that about vote kick for afk...i'm wondering how it is that certain guilds that que for pvp are able to boot someone from the team that they don't want there or they don't like...i hear of this happening atleast 2 or 3 times a day in gen chat.

 

Either way I would be interested in seeing if the hard core raiders, doing top end raids would say anything about people wearing PvP gear to thier raids? Albeit if pve gear and pvp gear as said being relatively equal.

[L-RANDLE]

Never knew that about vote kick for afk...i'm wondering how it is that certain guilds that que for pvp are able to boot someone from the team that they don't want there or they don't like...i hear of this happening atleast 2 or 3 times a day in gen chat.

 

Either way I would be interested in seeing if the hard core raiders, doing top end raids would say anything about people wearing PvP gear to thier raids? Albeit if pve gear and pvp gear as said being relatively equal.

 

Prior to 1.2, players in champ/cent gear were not automatically turned away. I would suspect "HC raiders" would not turn down BM players for HM OPS, at first blush without examining them, and definately not turn down a WH for a HM Denova run. I think the only prereq for HM OPS are HP(~17K, more for tanks) and main over 1600. That's about BM level.

[Mournblood]

Either way I would be interested in seeing if the hard core raiders, doing top end raids would say anything about people wearing PvP gear to thier raids? Albeit if pve gear and pvp gear as said being relatively equal.

 

My guild is primarily PvE focused, but I am primarily PvP focused as a player. I'm in full augmented WH, and at the time of this example, I had only scattered pieces of Columni/Rakata. They needed me to fill in one night on a Denova op as DPS, and when I questioned whether or not I was appropriately geared for that, they explained that full augmented WH > unaugmented Rakata for PvE. Only BH/Camp was better for PvE. Neeldess to say, they were right. I had no DPS performance issues and was even out-DPSing some of our PvE geared DPS.

 

But getting back on topic, my experience is that fully augmented BM is where you need to stop wearing PvE gear for PvP. Up until then, Rakata or higher is definitely better than Recruit gear. But as multiple posters have pointed out, you should have full BM gear in about two weeks if you're religiously doing your WZ daily/weekly. Given equal skill and similar AC matchup, fully augmented BM or WH will beat any BH/Camp PvE gear in PvP. At that point, it has less to do with who has more HP or higher DPS than it does with the damage mitigation from Expertise, of which PvE gear gets NONE beyond armor and abilities.

 

I think the problem most people have with new players in PvP is when they show up not even wearing Recruit or Rakata/BH/Camp. If I see someone wearing full Rakata or better PvE gear in a WZ, I'll assume they don't have fully augmented BM yet, and I won't say anything to them. If they are wearing moddable gear with rank 50/51 augments (Tionese equivalent), or quest greens/blues, then I'll say something to them.

[L-RANDLE]

If they are wearing moddable gear with rank 50/51 augments (Tionese equivalent), or quest greens/blues, then I'll say something to them.

 

Would you say, "Go put on recruit gear"?

 

IDK, recruit is not even a vast improvement over tionese grade stuff. Off the top of my head, if memory serves, it might net a increase of ~10% from a damage and heals perspective, and mitigation versus HP is still pretty much a wash at that level.

Here is an example of me in optimized/unaugmented-energized/tio, Augmented lvl 49 implants/ear, matrix cube, and columi grade relic/offhand.

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORPUREPVE.png

Here I am in Recruit:

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh590/ldogg1579/?action=view&current=SWTORRECRUIT.jpg

Force in Balance: 1249-1313 *1.1662= 1457-1532

HP: 12352

FiB rating (1622MAX) is still ahead of a calculated Recruit one. Since I have a few columi items, I would deduct a few points, but you get the point.

 

Again my main is around 1500 on that pic. I am pretty close to that vaunted +450MAIN threshold. So I guess the moral of the story is if you see someones main over 1500 (at least for sage/sorc class) you don't need to say anything because they are in affect already at recruit level. Anyone else (lower than that), is fair game...

[Mournblood]

Would you say, "Go put on recruit gear"?

 

Recruit gear is free, and it's superior to any Tionese equivalent or quest greens/blues for PvP. There is no argument anyone can reasonably make against that. So when players are showing up for a WZ not even wearing Recruit gear (or Rakata/BH/Camp instead), either they are unaware of the problem they are creating for their team, or they don't care. If it's the former, it's not my job to educate them. If they want to figure it out, they can come to the forums or ask fellow players before showing up to the WZ. It's no different than showing up to an Operation (raid) without being properly geared for it. If it's the latter and they just don't care, no amount of explanation is going to change their attitude. So to answer your question, I simply ask them to leave, or I will. If they choose to stay, I leave before the match starts so that someone else can queue in my place, and I requeue for another match.

[L-RANDLE]

Recruit gear is free, and it's superior to any Tionese equivalent or quest greens/blues for PvP.

But is it "superior" enough to warrant your stance? The answer is "no", in the case of Tionese because they are affecting the team in similar ways as a recruit would, and worst in the case I have shown because they are actually limiting their potential heals/damage output.

 

I don't like seeing undergeared people in WZ either, but there is a point where your stance is justified. It's at MAINSTAT=1500 (and you can probably get there without any Tionese level gear). I don't care whether you use lvl50 greens or lvl49 augmented purples to get to that point. You are at recruit level. No complaints, greifing, or quitting() required.

[Letallis]

As far as I am concerned gear is important but it doesn't make up for clueless. I won't bust on someone for having other gear if they can pull their weight.

[Jherad]

The mitigation vs max hp argument is completely one-sided if you have any healing on your team. The mitigation (ie. expertise) wins every time.

 

But I've given up trying to persuade people, I just enjoy farming people in their PvE gear. 10-12k full autos on scrubs with no expertise for the win.

[L-RANDLE]

The mitigation vs max hp argument is completely one-sided if you have any healing on your team. The mitigation (ie. expertise) wins every time.

 

But I've given up trying to persuade people, I just enjoy farming people in their PvE gear. 10-12k full autos on scrubs with no expertise for the win.

One-sided? I think medpaks and talents make that argument a bit more complex. We touched on that subject.

Isn't it inherently "hard" to keep a recruit up as well? Just by attention alone, they are "harder" than a Rakata player because you have to babysit their HP 100% of the time, otherwise they are dead. Am I wrong with that assumption? You don't even worry about healing any players(unless "topping off") until you see their HP @50% or less. That means the the Rakata player lasted more globals to get to 50% versus a recruit to get to 50%. Is it "easier" to bring them back to full HP during a battle? Maybe, but I don't see it. I actually have seen some posts where geared healers don't even bother healing recruits because its a lost cause. Recruits are TP that fell in and healers are reaching in, trying to salvage them back to usefulness.

 

It is hard to even justify it on that level, that's why I said it's questionable because your are not being healed 100% of the time and it is damn near impossible to save another player if they are on the brink of dying anyway. Healers are focused on so hardcore that they never can be healing you and only you 100% the time. Do you guys understand how many attacks it would take to make up a 50% gap in HP? Roughly 3 additional globals given the same person/rotation of attacks, and that is being nice about it.

 

Do you disagree with any of that?

[Ghostuka]

Well, when I am putting up my guard on someone, I am considering that person's expertise. I would rather put my guard on a recruit than a rakata, because I don't want to share that %20+ damage.

[Jherad]

Do you disagree with any of that?

 

Hell yeah I disagree with that. Not healing until someone is at 50%? Lol. Where does he think he is? A flashpoint? A decent PvP healer starts chainhealing/shielding the moment someone starts to take focus (unless of course he is triaging and decides to let them die / fend for himself). Forget all this 'how many globals to get to 100%' bullhockey - it is utter nonsense.

 

The question is how many resources the healer(s) expends in not letting the person die for say 20 seconds (during which the target will take multiples of their total HP pool in damage). At that point the healer wants to see close to a full health bar on their target at all times.

 

Yes okay, if the only damage you take is a few k here or there, and you're healing yourself with medpacs, fine. You might as well be naked. Under heavy fire, with healing, the expertise wins out, every time.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Jherad

[Larry_Dallas]

Thanks for the quick response, Philar and iNeXxS!

 

When the match ended, they pointed out their end-of-match stats were better than mine, despite my higher-tier PvP gear. I'm a Concealment Operative BM with a few WH pieces, and they're a Sniper in full Rakata, which really prompted my curiosity. I'm wondering where the disparity lies and how game mechanics can affect your results more than gear. (Not just in damage - more kills, less deaths.)

 

I mean, obviously playing for the objectives is more important than bloating your stats, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were also playing with objectives in mind more than stats.

 

I don't know the exact tradeoff point, but yeah, full rakata and above will make up for not having expertise in recruit in most cases. Especially with tanks. An augged campaign tank is going to stay up far, far longer than one in recruit.

[L-RANDLE]

Well, when I am putting up my guard on someone, I am considering that person's expertise. I would rather put my guard on a recruit than a rakata, because I don't want to share that %20+ damage.

 

Well it's only 15%, but who's counting. Anywho.... It's somewhat of a good point, but I think that "guard" in itself makes 15% moot to the point of being somewhat irrelevant.

 

I could also counter with: A Rakata player should make you want to Guard them MORE because of lack of mitigation. Keeping people alive is the point of guard, and keeping a teammates alive is much more important to achieving objectives. You also should want to keep them up longer because all things being equal, a Rakata geared potential DPS/HPS output is higher than a recruits. IDK, Just some food for PVP tankie-tank thought...

[L-RANDLE]

Yes okay, if the only damage you take is a few k here or there, and you're healing yourself with medpacs, fine. You might as well be naked. Under heavy fire, with healing, the expertise wins out, every time.

 

Assuming people are at the same HP level, I agree (EXP), but healers tend to dismiss the time it takes to get to that same HP level, given the two set comparision. Even with focus, it's all about the TTK, and whether mitigation shortens TTK. A good RL test would be to get a gallon of water and drill a 1" hole in it time how long it takes to empty it. The get a half-gallon and 3/4" hole(25% mitigation) and see how long it takes. Now for the, healing aspect, you could run the faucet at a given rate(slow) to see where the numbers fall (which is healing 100% of the time) to get an idea how healing impacts it. Off the top of my head, I would say the first case, half-gallon is empty before the gallon(PVE wins). Second case? Eh? It might matter, if I let it run long enough(PVP wins).

 

But alas, TTK is "short" in PVP, I probably will end up back in the cage before it could actually count for something, because if you are under focus, even while being healed, you are going to die/live, but it really had nothing to do with 15% mitigation. Couple all of that interaction, with the fact that you are never healed 100% of the time and sometimes there are no healers in a game....its makes mitigation questionable. Take the damage..

[TheronFett]

I agree that tanks probably benefit the most from PvE gear, if nothing else, because of the insane HP boost. I can wear either my Rakata/BH gear or BM/WH gear and not see much difference in PvP when rolling as a Powertech tank. Survivability goes up in the PvE gear, and damage goes up in PvP gear.

 

I'll add that it's most noticeable in Huttball. Just try to stop a PT tank in full PvE gear from scoring. Go ahead, I dare ya. All that shield/absorb does make a difference.

 

[Jherad]

But alas, TTK is "short" in PVP, I probably will end up back in the cage before it could actually count for something, because if you are under focus, even while being healed, you are going to die/live, but it really had nothing to do with 15% mitigation. Couple all of that interaction, with the fact that you are never healed 100% of the time and sometimes there are no healers in a game....its makes mitigation questionable. Take the damage..

 

See, its only short without healing. Even in a RWZ, good healing turns anything but the squishiest of squishies into a much tankier prospect. Yes, it has everything to do with 15% mitigation. There is a reason why tanks strive for better mitigation.

 

To use your 'hole in the bucket' analogy, consider instead how much water it would take to prevent each from being empited over a span of time. Make the holes gradually bigger. If your water supply (healing) has a limited throughput (a healer can only output so many heals per second), the bigger bucket will empty first, as the holes get bigger (the damage increases). The total size of the bucket becomes far less meaningful, as time and hole-size increase.

 

Anyway, already spent more effort on this than I'd intended - I'll redirect back to my first post in this thread... Bring on the PvE gear. As long as you're on the other side, please.

[niiall]

how about half and half, thats i did when i changed a pve toon to pvp. bought a few items that made up to about 400 exp but still had high crit , surge and power from teh pve stuff