The gear grind

[Scritchy]

There need to be gear progression in pvp to keep people playing. The solution would be to give people easier access to WH but also create new tier of gear with maybe 5% stat increase for players who do RWZs.

This game hemorrhaging over a million subs in a 6 month period seems to refute the claim that gear progression in PVP keeps people playing.

[kweassa]

This game hemorrhaging over a million subs in a 6 month period seems to refute the claim that gear progression in PVP keeps people playing.

 

I could use the same logic.

 

"This game hemorrhaging over a mil. subs in a 6 month period seems to suggest that the gear whiners for the last 6 months is killing the game"

 

 

I'm sure I need to post no further about boneheaded logic.

[bumpy_anderson]

People are quitting the game because it lacks new content. If you take out gear progression, you will see that number drop off even more. What this boils down to is people want instant satisfaction. You want to have the best right now. I hear many people saying that we want to play many classes according to my mood etc.,. While you guys are leveling up 4+ toons, many of us only have 1 toon that we play. I've got some alts for pre-50 but I've got one toon that I play on a regular basis. Trust me, that guy is geared to the teeth. With that being said, I chose to take one toon and develope his gear/reputation. It all boils down to what MMOs have been and what they should be. Almost all MMOs that I have played include a gear progression element. It gives players something to do while they are waiting for more content.

 

As far as guild wars 2 is concerned, it hasn't released yet. Even when it does, it will not be a good comparison on this. For instance, I'm thinking about picking it up just because its F2P. Does that mean that I prefer that type of pvp? Not really, it just means that I see an entertainment value in a F2P game. I'll surely have a subscription to another MMO as well.

[dcgregorya]

The flaw is simple:

This is an MMO - progression is king, both in PVE and PVP.

If you don't give people the opportunity to improve their toons, they'll stop playing after level 50.

 

Ratings, titles, etc. Rewards take different forms. There's no serious PVP game out there that attracts players on PVP premise that gives advantages to people who win. It's called "rich getting richer". The best part of this game is the story and in the 1-49 ranks, PVP is excellent. The game is built to make you have alts. Why they'd put in a gear grind for level 50 is beyond me, some idiot thought it was a good idea and the reality is it turns people off from PVP. If people don't play PVP, then PVP gear has no value to them and if people refuse to play PVP because of the gear grind, then their level 50 has one less thing to keep them occupied while they play the game.

[dcgregorya]

People are quitting the game because it lacks new content. If you take out gear progression, you will see that number drop off even more.

 

Except you won't. Players hate gear grinds, gear grinds are why people don't play PVP and why people won't play RWZ. My war hero main is not keeping me here, I assure you of that and when GW2 launches it's fairly likely that I'll downgrade to F2P since conveniently I'll have that option at that point.

[dcgregorya]

I could use the same logic.

 

"This game hemorrhaging over a mil. subs in a 6 month period seems to suggest that the gear whiners for the last 6 months is killing the game"

 

 

I'm sure I need to post no further about boneheaded logic.

 

Did you not understand his point? If gear grind "keeps people playing" and people aren't staying here then I guess its not actually keeping anyone playing right?

[Kophar]

Yep, another QQ thread.

 

"I need a reward or incentive to play pvp!"

 

"If you take out pvp gear, the raiders will have the best gear!"

There's a difference between progressing in PvE and in PvP. I will elaborate on that later. And we QQers are proposing taking away gear stats in PvP rather than just taking out expertise.

 

"Progression is a part of MMOs. You see it in PvE all the time!"

Yes, but in PvE, it's progression. In PvP, it's a slaughterhouse. I'll like to draw your attention to whats happening to people in recruit gear using a PvE metaphor: Take your LVL 10 greens and wipe at level 50 content until you get enough Sympathy Commendations to buy yourself some LVL 50 greens. Continue to do this until you're able to easily solo the content. This is not what happens in PvE. For those of you who don't know, in PvE, LVL 1s progress easily to LVL 2, and then to LVL 3, etc. They won't be constantly wiping, and it doesn't feel like a job. PvP can have progression so long as that's what it actually is. Brackets will take out the QQing. It's less about the grind, moreso about the disadvantages people get.

 

"But people who play IRL sports get rewarded when they play all the time! Most of them don't do it for fun!"

Yes, indeed. They play for a reward, but this is a horrible analogy, because the reward is a shiny new car, money, or something that doesn't affect their performance. In PvP, your reward is money (Commendations, it's a currency with monetary value, okay?), that can statistically increase your performance. You will be rewarded for PvP, but not in statistics and gear. In money, maybe, so long as you are unable to buy better gear with it. Another possible reward could be aesthetically pleasing looking cool stuffs. Or, just to do it for fun. Since this is a game, not a job. It feels like a job right now.

 

"But even some sports like the olympics is unfair! How is competing against different countries fair?"

You cannot state that there is an imbalance because one team is better. Competition should be like a science experiment. Many many many constants, and one variable. That variable is what's being measured. If two teams play basketball, and one is severely better, you cannot say that it's unfair. In PvP, skill makes a difference (Or strategy, whatever you want to call it), but so does gear. So the question is, what is PvP measuring? Skill, or gear (Time invested?). If it's the former, gear should become a constant. If it's the latter, then PvP isn't competitive. One of the parts of skill in an MMO - or any RPG for that matter - is gearing up, but making compromises in doing so. I will talk about these compromises later.

 

"But some countries in the olympics have better opportunity to play certain sports!"

Yes, and that's why baseball was removed; the U.S. And Japan one year were the only winners. There's a difference between preparation and ability to prepare. If an country doesn't prepare, it may have a higher chance of losing, yes, but there is no imbalance or unfairness. It is their choice whether or not they're going to practice.

 

However, some countries (Such as the low income ones that make of Africa) are unable to prepare for some sports like baseball; Baseball requires clay, fences (Or at least height and width boundaries), gloves, bats, and a ball. Do you think it's a coincidence that low income people can play soccer well? All you need is a field, some boundaries, a ball, and some goal boundaries. Nothing fancy.

 

In TOR, everyone has the ability to prepare - a computer, and access to queues. If we did server tournaments, lower population servers would be at a disadvantage, as their queues would pop less, and they couldn't practice as much. "Practice" brings me to my next point:

 

"You must practice to be competitive! This means playing and gearing up!"

What are we measuring? Gear or skill? What you practice is what you get; If PvP is a competitive measure of player skill, you practice to gain skill in a controlled environment that mimics the actual event. In layman's terms, If PvP measures skill, then your practice must also measure skill.

 

On the other hand, PvP could be noncompetitive, measuring gear, in which case practice is technically not needed, because this then becomes a stupid battle of math and statistics. Math never lies when done correctly. So yes, gear grind would be practice, if PvP measures gear and time invested. But by definition this cannot be, for PvP is player vs player, not gear vs gear?

 

"You said that gear is a part of skill when making compromises, but you said you want to remove gear?"

Remove gear tiers. You will need to determine how to weight your endurance and strength. Do I want x strength and y endurance, or y strength and x endurance? Both are useful, but for different situations. Choose wisely. The imbalance is made in tiers when the cumulative points of one tier is higher than the cumulative points of another; Having x strength and y endurance, OR x strength and y + 1 endurance. There is, statistically, NO logical reason to be low on endurance when you do not sacrifice strength for it. The gear is, on average, statistically better.

 

"You said that that the cumulative points of the different sets of gears should be equal, but having x endurance may not help defense as much as x strength will help offense?"

Then either one of two things should happen; The scaling for either strength or endurance should be changed such that x endurance will provide the same defense as x strength to provide the same offense. Or, let's say that given the same amount of strength and endurance, x, that the endurance helps defense twice as well as the way x strength will help offense. If this were to be the case, then let gear have 2x strength for x endurance.

 

"Giving out free gear would be welfare!"

Welfare is giving out free things because people are too lazy to work for them. Last time I checked, these equations are true:

SWTOR = GAME

JOBS = WORK

GAMES =/= JOBS

SWTOR =/= JOBS

SWTOR =/= WORK

 

Handing out free gear would not be welfare. It could be welfare if this game was a job. But alas, 'tis a contradiction.

 

I really don't see any flaws in my argument, but I'm sure many of you irrational people will. So please explain them to me.

 

Owh please by the love of god, this is the 4th post reguarding the same topic, sigh...

[Lord_Karsk]

In SWTOR it is far more easy getting the best PvE gear then getting PvP gear.

And in PvE progression you dont have to turn in 1 rakata to get one campain gear like

in PvP were the player have to turn in one Battlemaster gear for one Warhero gear.

 

In PvE one can be in full Rakata/Warhero after just one week. In PvP it takes in general

months to get Warhero ! So same time spendt in takes faaar longer in PvP to progress then

in PvE.Also while lvl up one only get gear at lvl 20 and 40 by only doing PvP.

 

In short PvP in SWTOR is a grind from hell and unrewarding compared to PvE.

[Pvtcarnage]

When you play PvE just pretend it's PvP ok? Or ask BW about the handicap/short bus program.

[dcgregorya]

When you play PvE just pretend it's PvP ok? Or ask BW about the handicap/short bus program.

 

LOL. So playing one character and grinding war hero makes you smarter than the guy you're responding to? Do you realize how dimwitted you sound?

[Pvtcarnage]

LOL. So playing one character and grinding war hero makes you smarter than the guy you're responding to? Do you realize how dimwitted you sound?

 

I think you lack the understanding of my joke which is your folly

[kweassa]

Did you not understand his point? If gear grind "keeps people playing" and people aren't staying here then I guess its not actually keeping anyone playing right?

 

All I understand is the simple truth: terribads whine about gear.

 

Boy it must kill you twirps inside knowing that whatever pile of crap you spew in these forums, they not gonna remove gear from the game.

 

Go on. Join the millions hemorrhages, and see if people care. I mean, how much do you think these boards full of whiney people actually represent, of the general population in SWTOR?

 

Seeing all these melodramatic mumble jumble doomsayers on the boards is interesting, but only up to a certain point.

[Scritchy]

Go on. Join the millions hemorrhages, and see if people care. I mean, how much do you think these boards full of whiney people actually represent, of the general population in SWTOR?

 

Seeing all these melodramatic mumble jumble doomsayers on the boards is interesting, but only up to a certain point.

It should concern you. They already had to do a massive server consolidation because the population was so sparse. Even with the consolidation, people are still quitting in droves and they have to change the fundamental business model of the game to try to save it. If people keep leaving, who are you going to play with?

[kweassa]

It should concern you. They already had to do a massive server consolidation because the population was so sparse. Even with the consolidation, people are still quitting in droves and they have to change the fundamental business model of the game to try to save it. If people keep leaving, who are you going to play with?

 

1. Server consolidation is a common thing in all new launching games. Novelty usually rarely last for 6 months, and usually takes about a year to stabilize to get a general grasp of subscription numbers.

 

2. Quitting in droves as in how? Some of your friends gone? Where's the source? How would you possibly know what the numbers are? You have no idea if F2P was a pre-planned event, nor if PvP is actually the reason for it.

 

Gimme a break, people. Don't make me laugh.

 

Typically, around 5~10% of the general population in any given MMO make up PvP population, unless the game itself is devoid of PvE like GW. You guys have way too high estimation concerning just how 'important' PvP is, and just how important your whiney crusade is.

[islander]

All I understand is the simple truth: terribads whine about gear.

 

Boy it must kill you twirps inside knowing that whatever pile of crap you spew in these forums, they not gonna remove gear from the game.

 

Go on. Join the millions hemorrhages, and see if people care. I mean, how much do you think these boards full of whiney people actually represent, of the general population in SWTOR?

 

Seeing all these melodramatic mumble jumble doomsayers on the boards is interesting, but only up to a certain point.

 

You'll care when this game is down to 10 servers, and you can't get ranked queues but once every 45 minutes.

 

Oh wait, we're already there!

[Siorac]

In SWTOR it is far more easy getting the best PvE gear then getting PvP gear.

And in PvE progression you dont have to turn in 1 rakata to get one campain gear like

in PvP were the player have to turn in one Battlemaster gear for one Warhero gear.

 

In PvE one can be in full Rakata/Warhero after just one week. In PvP it takes in general

months to get Warhero ! So same time spendt in takes faaar longer in PvP to progress then

in PvE.Also while lvl up one only get gear at lvl 20 and 40 by only doing PvP.

 

In short PvP in SWTOR is a grind from hell and unrewarding compared to PvE.

 

No.

 

In PvP, you get gear and rewards even if you constantly lose; in PvE if you fail at the content, you get nothing but repair bills. In PvP you don't have to find seven other people to get the best available gear, you can achieve that by solo queuing all the time.

 

Also, Rakata =/= War Hero. Battlemaster is sure as hell easier and quicker to get than Rakata - and they are each other's equivalent, with level 58 mods. Black Hole/Campaign takes as much grinding as War Hero (in the case of Campaign you're also at the mercy of the gods of RNG).

 

I really don't understand all the complaints about the grind, my Vanguard dinged 50 on Sunday night and I already have War Hero boots, War Hero implant, BM chest, implant, headpiece, belt, armguards, pants and boots. And I haven't played excessive amounts in these past few days. I can be effective even in this gear and I have something to work for.

[Scritchy]

1. Server consolidation is a common thing in all new launching games. Novelty usually rarely last for 6 months, and usually takes about a year to stabilize to get a general grasp of subscription numbers.

 

2. Quitting in droves as in how? Some of your friends gone? Where's the source? How would you possibly know what the numbers are? You have no idea if F2P was a pre-planned event, nor if PvP is actually the reason for it.

 

Gimme a break, people. Don't make me laugh.

 

Typically, around 5~10% of the general population in any given MMO make up PvP population, unless the game itself is devoid of PvE like GW. You guys have way too high estimation concerning just how 'important' PvP is, and just how important your whiney crusade is.

Server consolidation was never a popular thing this early in a game's life cycle until a few years ago (WAR was the first one I saw consolidate servers within a year of launch). Most games had to add servers after launch as more people showed up.

 

Queue pop times are taking long in 50 warzones, but staying about the same in 10-49. People aren't playing like they use to. The fleet is also rarely at 3 instances and when it is, it is in the low 100s instead of almost maxed like it was last month.

 

I guess we'll see when the six month subs are up in a week or so, huh?

 

Edit: I just wanted to add that the people in Warhammer also had your attitude, look where that got them. They are down to one US server and there is rumblings that it is either going to be shutdown or the zones that nobody skirmishes in will go away. Yay, 24/7 Battle of Praag! GO!

Edited August 9, 2012 by Scritchy

[kweassa]

Server consolidation was never a popular thing this early in a game's life cycle until a few years ago (WAR was the first one I saw consolidate servers within a year of launch). Most games had to add servers after launch as more people showed up.

 

Queue pop times are taking long in 50 warzones, but staying about the same in 10-49. People aren't playing like they use to. The fleet is also rarely at 3 instances and when it is, it is in the low 100s instead of almost maxed like it was last month.

 

I guess we'll see when the six month subs are up in a week or so, huh?

 

Edit: I just wanted to add that the people in Warhammer also had your attitude, look where that got them. They are down to one US server and there is rumblings that it is either going to be shutdown or the zones that nobody skirmishes in will go away. Yay, 24/7 Battle of Praag! GO!

 

So jump ship. What's stopping you? The hope that in desparation the developers might start making crappy and stupid changes to the game to satisfy a horde of whining idiots?

 

If something kills the game, its not gear, its not PvP. Its the endless surge of stupid, incompetent and downright lousy band of people who go about ruining the atmosphere, raining down with doomsaying and threat-making, silly tantrums, and making up stupid excuses and reasons in hopes to become something, someone better without breaking sweat.

 

The reality is simple and straightforward. You become as strong as you endeavor in PvP. Those who think they can do so without having to take effort in getting better gear are welcome to try so. Except, we know all of them have failed - hence the endless series of rants and threats.

 

Why are there still playing this game, still making stupid rants, despite all that has been said, told, and threatened already? It's very simple. They've already tried their hand in 'games that don't need gear' and they were simply crushed in there, as they are being crushed in here.

 

In here, those band of idiots can at least get a few wins through their own gear, by beating up people with even lesser gear and preparation. Unfortunately the hypocritic punks never realize that fact. That's why they stay here, and hope to change the game to their liking by making endless rants.

 

But both you know and I know that whiners don't move elsewhere. Those who really move and quit the game, don't leave any posts. They simply pick up their things, and silently go away.

 

That's the hard truth for ya.

Edited August 9, 2012 by kweassa

[Scritchy]

So jump ship. What's stopping you? The hope that in desparation the developers might start making crappy and stupid changes to the game to satisfy a horde of whining idiots?

The insane hope that maybe developers of future MMOs read the forums and see where games like this went wrong so they don't make the same mistake. So people can have a rational discussion without resorting to name calling (oh, guess that doesn't work for you, does it?).

 

If something kills the game, its not gear, its not PvP. Its the endless surge of stupid, incompetent and downright lousy band of people who go about ruining the atmosphere, raining down with doomsaying and threat-making, silly tantrums, and making up stupid excuses and reasons in hopes to become something, someone better without breaking sweat.

It is beyond silly to think forums cause a game to fail. If that were the case, WoW would never have gotten as popular as it was, those forums were an absolute cesspool the few times I went there.

 

The reality is simple and straightforward. You become as strong as you endeavor in PvP. Those who think they can do so without having to take effort in getting better gear are welcome to try so. Except, we know all of them have failed - hence the endless series of rants and threats.

I don't know how many have tried and failed, I find that hard to do since all you have to do is lose 6 warzones a day and you will eventually get geared. The problem is, people don't have fun doing that, so they stop.

 

I don't know about you, but I absolutely HATE curbstomping somebody who has no chance because the gear they are in doesn't compare to mine, yet I have to wear it so I can fight others in augmented War Hero. I don't have fun doing that, and I know they don't have fun being on the receiving end of it. Like I said, when people stop having fun, they quit playing the game. Look where we are now, queue timers are slowing down, ranked warzones are really slowing down and the population is going away.

 

Sounds like it is working swell.

[Zunayson]

So far, the discussion has gravitated to the point of arguing about PvP and PvE.

 

Let me remind you: PvE is progression, PvP is a slaughter house! PvE was, is, and will always be, all about statistics, the time you've played, etc. It's not "Competitive"; The NPC's AI is pretty easy to understand, and so are boss mechanics. It's about overcoming the numbers, and being a coordinated team. You move from low level content in low level gear, and overcome it eventually, and then get rewarded with higher level gear. This higher level gear, does indeed make it easier to play lower level content, but you will only be rewarded in low level gear. This means that to progress in gear, you must progress in content.

 

PvP, on the other hand, is (Or at least should be) competition. The gear should be static, the competition should be, mostly, static. In PvP, you're not fighting to overcome numbers, you should be fighting to overcome player skills. This is one of the many things that PvP or multiplayer has in a game that PvE or singleplayer can never match. It's that I'm on a fair statistical basis, and I'm using my skill to fight another's skill. Not using my skill to play statistics. That's what PvE is about. In the current state, with similarly skilled players being affected by the gear gap, it is as follows: My skills vs the skills of another and his statistical advantages. You either lose, or win. But either way, you still get rewarded. Even as a higher level geared person, you can still play lower level geared players for the same reward.

 

It's a bit like this: You're in rakata gear, and you play columi-grade content for campaign-grade gear. You're then forced to, in your tionese gear, play campaign-grade content, in return for columi. Then you play more campaign-grade content for rakata this time, and then finally! You get your campaign! You steamroll the content at another's expense. I have no problem with having to play the game, like in PvE, for my gear. I do have a problem with working the game. It is not fun to walk into a warzone and get dominated by the same republic WH premade w/ augments (No joke). Focusing everyone one by one, when one person can literally 4-gcd me.

 

TL;DR PvP is about the player vs player, such that the player is equal.

 

PvE is about the player vs environment. See the difference? Environment doesn't have skill. They have statistics, probability, etc. to make up their AI.

[Chimerako]

I have no trouble being effective in PVP under geared and at a low level. if I roll an alt I start pvping @ lvl 10. I don't have any issues really. I've played all the classes, so I would have to assume players skill more than the grid is effecting enjoyment. Stop beating your head against a wall and learn to play a little better.

[Fyda]

I agree that there should be some sort of gear progression, though not in the dimensions SWTor has. Also (like I said in another Thread), Warzones isn't real MMO-PvP for me anymore. It's like League of Legends or Bloodline Champions for me. Warzones have zero connection to the MMO-world, no consequences and no influence. So why the hell a gear progression? Gear progression in GW2's WvWvW is fine because the fights there have motivation, influence and consequences. Imagine if League of Legends had a (big) gear progression (outside the game, like in SWTor).

 

Also gear is fun if there is some sort of customization to it but in SWTor it's just Tier 1 < Tier 2. It has 20 endurance and strength more, so I gonna use it! Surge-rating was the only fun stat and they nerfed it. Gearing in this game is incredible boring, there are no possibilities for experimenting and zero customization. This is why I love GW2, finally a MMO with stat- and talent-customization.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Fyda

[islander]

I have no trouble being effective in PVP under geared and at a low level. if I roll an alt I start pvping @ lvl 10. I don't have any issues really. I've played all the classes, so I would have to assume players skill more than the grid is effecting enjoyment. Stop beating your head against a wall and learn to play a little better.

 

10-49 doesn't have expertise. There is no such thing as gear progression. It's why a lot of the casual to semi-casual pvpers enjoy 10-49 more.

 

The drawback to this, is, well 10-49's are really, really dumb compared to level 50's. For the same reason. Two edges of the same sword, honestly.

Edited August 9, 2012 by islander

[Scritchy]

10-49 doesn't have expertise. There is no such thing as gear progression. It's why a lot of the casual to semi-casual pvpers enjoy 10-49 more.

 

The drawback to this, is, well 10-49's are really, really dumb compared to level 50's. For the same reason. Two edges of the same sword, honestly.

There are 50s rerolling to do the 10-49 warzones all the time. The same 50s that didn't have a clue will be the 10-49s that don't have a clue either.

[CRNphg]

10-49 doesn't have expertise. There is no such thing as gear progression. It's why a lot of the casual to semi-casual pvpers enjoy 10-49 more.

 

The drawback to this, is, well 10-49's are really, really dumb compared to level 50's. For the same reason. Two edges of the same sword, honestly.

 

Actually it does. You could even stack it if you cared about killing newbies in 1-49.

Personally i dispise 1-49 cause people have no idea what they're doing there.

Calling 1-49 equal is also ridiculous.

 

Next thing they will want to ban group queueing cause they are too casual to find other good players or are too casual to get into a pvp guild.