Remove gear stats from PvP please.

[Darth_Philar]

Good point: gear in SWTOR does not correspond to cleats, shoulder pads, gloves, etc. in RL sports, but instead getting the gear corresponds to training.

 

I've noticed that doing the dailies again and again reminds me of working through repeated katas back when I took Tae Kwon Do, except that I don't get nearly as sweaty.

 

Actually, gear equates to more of your money being handed over to Bioware.

 

Gear Grinds are the lazy developer's way of maintaining subscriptions.

Good developers design gameplay mechanics that keep the player involved and thus eliminate the need for grinding.

[Scritchy]

Good point: gear in SWTOR does not correspond to cleats, shoulder pads, gloves, etc. in RL sports, but instead getting the gear corresponds to training.

Then what does leveling equate to? I always felt leveling was the training (which is why they feed you skills slowly, so you can work each one in and learn what it does).

[Nolenthar]

I think we have slight misunderstanding. The idea of what you selected in red is to bring all players of the same class at equal condition where the same ability of all players do the same damage. For example Rail shot of all PT in warzone will do the same damage no matter what gear and level PT have. Of course at the end of the match they have different total damage and healing done depending how well players play.

 

You do know that those games exist ? I have to admit that I don't see the point to have a progression-based game where progression is not possible ?

 

 

Then what does leveling equate to? I always felt leveling was the training (which is why they feed you skills slowly, so you can work each one in and learn what it does).

 

Levelling would be you learning about what you can do, and gearing up would be about training your muscle to do it better/faster/stronger

 

 

As to developers being lazy and creating gear for this reason, magic items already existed in PnP games, and they were also hard to get. So no, that's not really related

[NamikazeNaruto]

You are introducing variables you aren't addressing...like the quality of your opposition. Since your opponent didn't stay the same between your 2 characters, how are we suppose to know you didn't face the world's best marauder or merc?

 

Also you are complaining about having a HUGE gear difference between you and this merc and he BARELY beat you.

 

No one here is saying "gear doesn't matter". We all know it does. I just think people put too much emphasis on how much it affects the game. This is war, you go in giving yourself every advantage. USA is such a huge military power based on their technology....a gear advantage. If your aim sucks, then it doesn't matter how great that gun is, the guy you're firing at with an old springfield will probably take you out.

 

It doesn't matter who they were, that was the very first time I lost to a merc 1v1 ever... before with my previous gear I had never even come close to losing. Also only the best maras/sents could beat me in a 1v1 on the server before. Now I lost 2v1 to a single mara and lost for the very first time to a dps merc. I guess what I'm trying to say is I knew gear made a difference... but I underestimated just HOW MUCH of a difference it makes in this game.

[Brool]

Yes. I have two options:

 

1. Biioware fix PvP by removing gear affect onPvP

2. Quit this game

 

Actually those are not you're options

 

they would be more along the lines of

 

a) go play a different game

b) deal with it and earn you're bm/wh gear.

 

Since bioware is not going to change it, and since they wouldnt be "fixing" anything. It's not broken.

 

Btw. Ill go ahead and state I never did mind the recruit grind on any of my 3 pvp geared toons. It's much much much easier now than it was at launch. that was painful. Infact, I find it easier to gear out a toon for pvp than for pve.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Brool

[Ravashakk]

It doesn't matter who they were, that was the very first time I lost to a merc 1v1 ever... before with my previous gear I had never even come close to losing. Also only the best maras/sents could beat me in a 1v1 on the server before. Now I lost 2v1 to a single mara and lost for the very first time to a dps merc. I guess what I'm trying to say is I knew gear made a difference... but I underestimated just HOW MUCH of a difference it makes in this game.

 

It does matter. I agree that it might be unlikely you faced a God like marauder or Merc skillwise, but from a testing POV you can't leave things like that up in the air. You need a constant to test them against. Like the difference between a raid boss test dummy and a test dummy with a lower level than you. You're going to miss more, and do less dmg on your hits on the raid boss than the lower level dummy. The only way to test it would be change a variable and do them on the same dummy. So when you have your WH gear and crit the low level dummy for 6k, then on your no gear having toon critting the raid boss for 3.5k....don't go crying about how gear made that big of a difference.

[Zunayson]

Not all SWTOR players have access to the same gear, if it was like that I wouldn't create this topic. Just enter any warzone and you will see some players have WH gear and other recruit and BM.

 

People play in professional football league not because of better gear but because of their skills. If you think what people play football for year to get better boots and another 3 years to get even better boots then good luck:)

 

I do not need custom boots cause I am not a footballers, but if I needed i could go into sport shop and buy them and I am sure they won't be worse than boots professional footballers have it just a matter of price even the best boots doesn't cost a lot.

 

People (At least some) Play for money. Money does not make them better at football. Here's the difference

 

The reward for irl sports is a reward worth playing for, but it does bolster your performance unfairly.

The reward for PvP is a reward worth playing for, and bolsters your performance unfairly.

 

If people cannot pvp for money, fun, or any other fair reward, then they shouldn't be pvping.

[NamikazeNaruto]

It does matter. I agree that it might be unlikely you faced a God like marauder or Merc skillwise, but from a testing POV you can't leave things like that up in the air. You need a constant to test them against. Like the difference between a raid boss test dummy and a test dummy with a lower level than you. You're going to miss more, and do less dmg on your hits on the raid boss than the lower level dummy. The only way to test it would be change a variable and do them on the same dummy. So when you have your WH gear and crit the low level dummy for 6k, then on your no gear having toon critting the raid boss for 3.5k....don't go crying about how gear made that big of a difference.

 

Lol ok... I've played many many warzones on this server... Enough to know who the top players are. The guys that beat me were definitely not Godlike players. But hey, you'll just say there was that 0.01% chance that maybe they were some godlike player I did not know about. Seems you're just arguing with me for the sake of argument at this point, I'm done.

[Scritchy]

As to developers being lazy and creating gear for this reason, magic items already existed in PnP games, and they were also hard to get. So no, that's not really related

PNP games were different, they were almost exclusively PVE. The gear was also as hard or as easy as the group wanted it to be. The real difference is that PNP games didn't have subscription fees they were trying to protect by taking the lazy way out and creating gear grinds. Which is easier, creating a hamster wheel or something that is continuously fun?

Edited August 8, 2012 by Scritchy

[Monoth]

Never going to happen OP.....

 

People like having an advantage over other people....

 

Although Personally I wouldn't mind fixed stats for the various classes and we just grind for better looking gear... Also you could have a scoreboard in the space station that showed the top 10 pvp players... stuff like that would give people incentive to keep pvp'ing and still be able to keep everything on a more level playing field...

 

But I doubt it will ever happen....

[Ravashakk]

Lol ok... I've played many many warzones on this server... Enough to know who the top players are. The guys that beat me were definitely not Godlike players. But hey, you'll just say there was that 0.01% chance that maybe they were some godlike player I did not know about. Seems you're just arguing with me for the sake of argument at this point, I'm done.

 

Just pointing out an obvious flaw to your logic. We from the outside looking in don't know how skilled you are or the skill of the opposition. We know your skill is constant essentially, but you changed opponents. I've 1v2ed a Vanguard and sentinel, a sniper and juggernaut, and assassin with a sorc....as a healer. Does that mean that something is wrong if I can't 1v2 every player combination of those classes? No. I expect some players to be of a higher calibur, maybe have slightly better gear, and RNG works in their favor and not mine. On top of that, player mistakes contribute to the outcome of a match. Have you ever accidentally CCed someone that just became full resolve? Or double CC to add more resolve? It has a big impact on how that fight goes, because "balance" as bw puts it, relies on those abilities being used. You just wasted it. Does that make you a terrible player? No, but these variables can turn the tide of a fight. You are just focusing on the fact that playber b out geared player a.

 

If you told me that you dueled playber B 3 times on your geared toon, and 3 times on your non geared toon, and the results were as follows:

 

Player A wins with 85% health left

Player A wins with 90% health left

Player A wins with 92% health left

 

Player B wins with 40% health left

Player B wins with 45% health left

Player B wins with 37% health left

 

...then I'd say that was more than likely the gear disparity.

 

On a side note, I do wish that expertise was just a damage reduction stat.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Ravashakk

[Scritchy]

Although Personally I wouldn't mind fixed stats for the various classes and we just grind for better looking gear... Also you could have a scoreboard in the space station that showed the top 10 pvp players... stuff like that would give people incentive to keep pvp'ing and still be able to keep everything on a more level playing field...

 

But I doubt it will ever happen....

The statues you got in WAR for being one of the top performers of the week were awesome. Playing on people's vanity always works.

[Zunayson]

So you think of "work" when you hear the word "welfare" or "lazy"? Giving everyone gear for nothing would be welfare.

 

Welfare giving people things because they're too lazy to work.

 

Work is for jobs.

 

This is a game.

 

Job=/=game

This = game

This =/=job

job = work

this=/=work

 

Oh wait, I have to work to play to be competitive. I see some maths errors. You may want to check your maths.

[Nolenthar]

PNP games were different, they were almost exclusively PVE. The gear was also as hard or as easy as the group wanted it to be. The real difference is that PNP games didn't have subscription fees they were trying to protect by taking the lazy way out and creating gear grinds. Which is easier, creating a hamster wheel or something that is continuously fun?

 

I don't disagree with you. If you crave your way through EQ forums (if they still exist ?) or DAOC, you'll find plenty of people qqing about the XP grind (or should I say Lineage 2 ? ). I'm myself happy it no longer works like that.

 

However, my point was just that CRPG didn't create loot and race for better gear, and if you thin grinding doesn't make people happy, can you explain me why games like CoD or BF3 (both FPS, which are technically made to be balanced PvP wise, offering to every player the exact same opportunity, damage, skills, etc) end up with gear grind, gear improvement, etc ?

 

I don't deny that the system is there to make sure you want to play that game and continue paying. However you have to keep in mind that doing such things (keep you heavily entertained without any sense of grind) is still technically entirely impossible in a themepark game. That would require way more money than they could dream of being able to get.

 

Because grind, from its pure sense of heavy korean grind to its current sense, as it is seen now by a playerbase is everything which would take you more than 50 hours to get.

 

I would agree the gear gap would be terrible if you couldn't gear yourself in full BM in a couple of weeks (playing casually, 2 days for a hardcore), but I disagree at the moment. WH is hard to get, sure, but you can easily get 700 ranked WZ comms every week just by doing your weekly +4 times the daily (1 daily each week end days + 2 dailies during the week), + the normal wz comms. I would say around 2 or 3 weeks for a piece. I don't know for you, but for me, 2-3 weeks is not a hell, and it's not like everyone and their mothers is a 6 months veteran with fully augmented WH.

[Altheran]

The statues you got in WAR for being one of the top performers of the week were awesome. Playing on people's vanity always works.

 

But it has the flaw of being based on renown points earned, not on real performance so if you had a low rank, you could earn more points than an other player who had better performance but higher rank so he earned less points.

 

On my server, 9 of the 10 "performers of the week" (if not 10 of 10) were always some fresh, new and unknown people who just had been Renown PowerLeveled by guildmates and doing RvE all day.

[Nolenthar]

Welfare giving people things because they're too lazy to work.

 

Work is for jobs.

 

This is a game.

 

Job=/=game

This = game

This =/=job

job = work

this=/=work

 

Oh wait, I have to work to play to be competitive. I see some maths errors. You may want to check your maths.

 

No matter if this game would allow you to fight entirely naked with your hands only, you would still have to "work" to be competitive, to become better, faster, to know the game better than your opponent.

 

Work = exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something;

 

You're working constantly, each time you try to accomplish something. I'm sorry to break it for you. I sincerly hope it doesn't make you sad however.

[Scritchy]

However, my point was just that CRPG didn't create loot and race for better gear, and if you thin grinding doesn't make people happy, can you explain me why games like CoD or BF3 (both FPS, which are technically made to be balanced PvP wise, offering to every player the exact same opportunity, damage, skills, etc) end up with gear grind, gear improvement, etc ?

BF3 adding the gear progression because COD has it and EA is desperately trying to get in on the COD windfall (which is why they ruined the BF franchise, making it something people didn't want). BF didn't start that way, I don't think it was until BFBC2 that they added gear progression, which a lot of people considered the start of the downward spiral of the franchise, focusing more on console than PC gamers.

 

TF2 has no gear progression, yet it was released almost 5 years ago and tons of people still play it. CS has sort of a version of gear progression, but that is based on each individual round of performance as opposed to permanently (I may be incorrect there, it has been a really really long time since I played it).

 

I don't deny that the system is there to make sure you want to play that game and continue paying. However you have to keep in mind that doing such things (keep you heavily entertained without any sense of grind) is still technically entirely impossible in a themepark game. That would require way more money than they could dream of being able to get.

It is possible, you just have to make the game FUN. Add dynamic content instead of static content, add a variety of ways to earn gear or xp as opposed to just one way. Think back to games like... Gauntlet, Super Mario Brothers, the SSI D&D games, the Might and Magic or Bard's Tale series. Those games people kept going back to and playing over and over, for no other reason than they were FUN, not just a grind.

 

I would agree the gear gap would be terrible if you couldn't gear yourself in full BM in a couple of weeks (playing casually, 2 days for a hardcore), but I disagree at the moment. WH is hard to get, sure, but you can easily get 700 ranked WZ comms every week just by doing your weekly +4 times the daily (1 daily each week end days + 2 dailies during the week), + the normal wz comms. I would say around 2 or 3 weeks for a piece. I don't know for you, but for me, 2-3 weeks is not a hell, and it's not like everyone and their mothers is a 6 months veteran with fully augmented WH.

If this game lasts long enough to get more end game content or increased levels, no longer will new players be able to close the gap in a few weeks. That is when the real problem will start to occur, and it is why gear grinds/progression in PVP is ultimately a death sentence. You have to replace the players you lose with new players, or the game just shrinks to nothing (like WAR with it's 1 server).

 

Edit: I was wrong about the Battlefield franchise, it had gear progression in BF2142.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Scritchy

[Darth_Philar]

BF3 adding the gear progression because COD has it and EA is desperately trying to get in on the COD windfall (which is why they ruined the BF franchise, making it something people didn't want). BF didn't start that way, I don't think it was until BFBC2 that they added gear progression, which a lot of people considered the start of the downward spiral of the franchise, focusing more on console than PC gamers.

 

What actually ruined BF3 was the Rent a Server service.

 

I had that game for all of a week before that patch hit and once it did the game instantly became 100% unplayable.

I'd spend over an hour each time I wanted to play trying to find a "normal" server to play on. After 3 days of that nonsense I pitched the game disc in the trash and wrote of the BF series for all of eternity.

[Scritchy]

What actually ruined BF3 was the Rent a Server service.

 

I had that game for all of a week before that patch hit and once it did the game instantly became 100% unplayable.

I'd spend over an hour each time I wanted to play trying to find a "normal" server to play on. After 3 days of that nonsense I pitched the game disc in the trash and wrote of the BF series for all of eternity.

You lasted longer than I did. I quit in Beta and got a full refund. At that point, I made the decision that I wouldn't play any more EA games that required Origin (which saved me from the disaster that ME3 turned out to be I guess). The main reason I didn't play was it felt like a sequel to BFBC2, which I didn't care for at all. It was suppose to be the sequel to BF2, which was an incredible game, and they completely missed the mark as far as I was concerned.

[Jagil]

You can have trainers, friends doctors or anything you like but when athletes goes into competition they have equal equipment. In football they have same boots, in box they have the same gloves. There are standards on sport equipment if you don't meet them you will never be qualified, if you deliberately violate standard on sport equipment you 'll be disqualified.

 

Let's say one boxer put a piece of metal inside his gloves to give advantage over other boxers, it's a typical example of cheating. So you support cheating, right?

 

All very poor examples. If you wanted absolute equality like you are saying then all boxers are to have exactly the same body size, strength and stamina. No advantages from extra arm length, height or fast twitch muscle development, better cardio.

 

What's the reality of boxing though? The boxers that put in the time building up their physical attributes have a significant advantage over those that don't. A lot still comes down to ability and will, but with two equally skilled fighters, the one that spent time buffing up will almost always be the winner.

 

What you're proposing is that every player of a certain class have exactly the same stats. That's exactly what my example above simulates.

 

If you think your idea is good, then why don't you try to put a naked pvp league together and see how popular that is amongst other players? Much better than proposing to force it on all players. I guarantee you that swtor pvp would be empty 1 day after the patch with your new system.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Jagil

[Jagil]

Edit: I was wrong about the Battlefield franchise, it had gear progression in BF2142.

 

It had gear progression in BF2 .... unlocks. They just expanded the upgrade path more with later releases and made it class specific.

 

It wasn't gear progression that killed BF3 for pc, it was because it was a console port and felt like one. Also because it was just BF3, people who were already sick of the older titles realised it was just the same old ****, just a bit more shiny.

[Nolenthar]

It is possible, you just have to make the game FUN. Add dynamic content instead of static content, add a variety of ways to earn gear or xp as opposed to just one way. Think back to games like... Gauntlet, Super Mario Brothers, the SSI D&D games, the Might and Magic or Bard's Tale series. Those games people kept going back to and playing over and over, for no other reason than they were FUN, not just a grind.

 

Because Rift turned out to be a so big success with its dynamic events. That's the whole point bro, randomized events are fun at first, and definitely offer a better replay-ability than "scripted quest", but faster than you think, those dynamic events turn out to be boring as well. SWTOR did offer variety to get gear. PvE, PvP, even space missions somehow allow you to get some stuff. True however, Expertise killed that. I don't like expertise, but I kinda understand where they come from with this idea, but that being said with Battlemaster being easier to get than Rakata, and WH being technically easier to get than Campaign, I don't see where the PvPer would have been spoiled by such a system. But I digress.

 

And Come on mate, don't let melancoly speaking for you. Yes, games like Mario worked well, but it's not because they were so much more fun than SWTOR (they were not). They just came earlier, before, and people gets bored of everything.

WoW is still at the moment the most successful MMORPG, and it still have gear progression, grind, etc, but clearly the new MMORPGs clearly show that you cannot clone the style and succeed. True enough, MMO have to find new stuff to keep players entertained, but that's way harder that you make it sound.

 

If this game lasts long enough to get more end game content or increased levels, no longer will new players be able to close the gap in a few weeks. That is when the real problem will start to occur, and it is why gear grinds/progression in PVP is ultimately a death sentence. You have to replace the players you lose with new players, or the game just shrinks to nothing (like WAR with it's 1 server).

 

Edit: I was wrong about the Battlefield franchise, it had gear progression in BF2142.

 

I entirely agree on that one however. If there is in the game more than 3 tier of PvP gear (2 tier would be better tbh, as most of us agree PvP without Battlemaster is useless), then the new players will never be able to catch up with the veterans. We're not here however.

 

Now, on a game like SWTOR, you have to keep in mind that PvP is about 1% of the content. SWTOR is not a PvP-centered game. PvP eventually requires more than 4 Warzones to keep your PvP-oriented population. Even with balanced gear, you won't solve much past the 2 months bashing each other "with balanced gear".

[Scritchy]

Because Rift turned out to be a so big success with its dynamic events. That's the whole point bro, randomized events are fun at first, and definitely offer a better replay-ability than "scripted quest", but faster than you think, those dynamic events turn out to be boring as well. SWTOR did offer variety to get gear. PvE, PvP, even space missions somehow allow you to get some stuff. True however, Expertise killed that. I don't like expertise, but I kinda understand where they come from with this idea, but that being said with Battlemaster being easier to get than Rakata, and WH being technically easier to get than Campaign, I don't see where the PvPer would have been spoiled by such a system. But I digress.

Rift was screwed from the start based on the leadership team Trion put into place. Anybody who knew what those guys did previously figured the game was going to be linear, quest hub to quest hub with dynamic events barely making a dent in the landscape. They put the producer that killed EQ2 turning it from what the fans wanted into a WoW clone in as... head producer. They put the guy that was in charge of WAR class balancing in as... head of combat balancing.

[Morrolan]

Not another "can we have PVP with even gear please" thread. Obviously people who make threads like this, don't like the idea of any grind for gear, in any game, and really shouldn't play PVP WZ's OR play raids, if they don't like the idea of gear progression.

Its not progression per se its vertical progression. And there are differences between PvE and PvP which make vertical progression more suited to PvE. PvP should be primarily a test of skill, in swtor at lvl 50 its not, and by the time players get on an equal footing with the better players and can test their skill at the top level the grind has turned off a large number of players just when it should be entering the most interesting phase. I'm not even against some vertical progression its just the extent of it.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Morrolan

[DocSinn]

To the OP:

 

Give up. You will convince no one. MMO players do not understand nor do they wish to understand the concept of competitive player vs. player. They dont pvp for the enjoyment of pvp or for the spirit of competition. They do it for gear. If there was no gear, they wouldnt do it. They are not interested in competition. They are interested in making their characters as strong as possible.

 

What they and developers fail to realize is that gear progression pvp is only going to attract a certain amount of people. Even the mighty World of Warcraft could not sustain viable pvp through gear progression. Veteran players will always punish newbs because they have the advantage. They've been playing and grinding gear. Newbs get pummeled and have two choices: 1. Grind the gear also or 2. Stop playing.

 

What MMO PvPers dont realize is that, especially with the console market becoming more and more versatile, most players are going to take Option 2. The truth is right in front of you. Rated PvP que times are terrible. SWTOR PvP on a whole is frowned upon by the community. MMO subscriptions ACROSS THE BOARD are down. Only a handful of games are able to maintain thier playerbase without going F2P.

 

FPS shooters sell in the hundreds of millions. There are tens of millions of players. Because despite their flaws(cheaters, exploits, etc) the PvP is based on your performance, not how long you grinded gear.

 

But you arent going to convince the MMO community(at least not this one) of this. So stop trying. Play until you stop having fun. When its no longer fun, quit. Talk with your money. But you are wasting your time here.....

Edited August 9, 2012 by DocSinn