Bioware its not a market shift, its your failure to live up to promises

[Hambunctious]

No he didn't There's tons of stories about Boba Fett after the events of Episode 6.

 

LOL, if GL says he died, and he did say that, then I don't care what some writer did with their own SW universe. What they write in the EU is totally seperate from the original.

[Kaisernick]

WoW is just the best value for your money in the MMO market.

 

People aren't going to keep paying 15 bucks a month when they could get better value else where. SW:ToR tried with story and it failed. They are giving away the story for free now and you PAY for the game style elements that made WoW famous.

 

Which WoW has WAY WAY more of.

 

sure waste your money doing text based quests that are grindy listen to people talk utter crap and behave like 8 year olds (thougth to be fair 8 year olds are more mature) only to get to the end and have the same armor as every other one of your class and do the raids and hm dungons that people left wow for.

[Kleve]

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html

 

This article sums it up quite succintly.

 

You can make excuses all you want, saying that the MMO market has shifted to F2P, but the reality is that the failure of SWTOR to reach its potential is 100% on you.

 

You promised frequent content and story updates.

You had a very large team.

You did not deliver.

What happened?

 

7 Months in and you have only added one medium size content update, basic features that should have been in at launch and NO story updates at all. What happened to story as a new MMO pillar? What happened to all this supposed story you wrote.

 

Let this be a lesson to your EA overlords (although you know they will simply do the same thing over and over) STOP RUSHING OUT GAMES BEFORE THEY ARE FINISHED.

Where high profile high potential games are concerned, you will make MORE money by polishing and actually finishing a game rather than releasing a half finished crappy product. You will make MORE money by building brand loyalty rather than destroying it by releasing crap. What is so difficult to understand about this? While you're at it please fire your management and hire people that actually understand how to run a game business.

 

I love you. I meant it. I really, truly, deeply, sincerely and erotically love you.

[Lt_Latency]

So you believe there is only room in the MMO market for one big P2P MMO?

 

If they are all basically the same game at the core, yes.

 

All most all these games follow the same model. Yes they have small things that make them different but the basic core is the very close.

 

 

This is even true outside of P2P

 

RTS = Starcraft

FPS = CoD

 

 

Lots of geners are also domminted by one titles

[Kleve]

Except they promised frequent content updates and did not deliver.

 

For Christsake, they took the servers down TWICE every week to patch. How more frequent do you want your 'updates'?

[Lt_Latency]

sure waste your money doing text based quests that are grindy listen to people talk utter crap and behave like 8 year olds (thougth to be fair 8 year olds are more mature) only to get to the end and have the same armor as every other one of your class and do the raids and hm dungons that people left wow for.

 

The problem is the story only last so long. Most people don't play many toons.

 

Then you are left look at stuff like this.

 

if you are a PvPer

 

4 warzones (only 8 players)

 

or

 

9+ warzones(10-40players)

Arena

World PvP areas

World built for people to run into each other.

 

This is when your money start to look like it might be spent better somewhere esle

Edited August 1, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[Kaisernick]

For Christsake, they took the servers down TWICE every week to patch. How more frequent do you want your 'updates'?

patches are not content there bug fixes.

if u read the article you see that they promised CONTENT almost every mounth something which we didnt get if anything they removed more per mounth than they did add.

[Gidoru]

Quality is subjective. Some enjoy a game, while others don't.

Quality is not entirely subjective. Some things are objectively of superior quality. For instance, the strength of a metal, Steel is of better quality than Copper. In other areas most peope generally agree upon what is better quality and whether warranted or not this acceptance is relevant to a products success.

 

What is better quality, polyester or silk?

What is better quality, a Standard Def TV or a HD TV?

What is better quality a Saturn or a Porche?

 

Ask most people these questions and they will overwhelming suggest that the former is of better quality.

 

Now this being said, the quality of a game is somewhat more difficult to define but there are certainly factors that go into this consideration and i will not go into examining this.

 

World of Warcraft is the only P2P MMO ever that has reached those numbers. I don't believe a P2P MMO will ever reach those again. WoW is the exception to the rule. It was a freak that no one expected and no one could replicate.

Once again, no MMO is a good as WoW. This is why WoW has retained so many of its subscribers over time. Furthermore, the fact that something has not happened is not evidence that it will never happen or could not have happened under different circumstances. SWTOR had a chance to be successfull however due to Biowares failures it is not.

 

There is a reason why the big MMO's coming out are F2P (Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2). I personally believe that a full P2P MMO is an out of date concept in the MMO environment and a hybrid of the two is much more suitable. I've only come to these conclusion from the facts that I've seen.

The fact that WoW is still the most successful MMO by a large margin and is still using a subscription model shows that the model itself is not the problem.

Most MMOs that are F2P are inferior games that cannot compete, why would you pay a subscripition for a game that is worse than WoW when you can simply play WoW?

Also it is in response to your saying it is not due to a marketing shift. I disagree and believe thats the direction MMO's are going.

Except i didnt say this. What i said was that they are using it as an excuse while the true blame lies with the choices they made and their failure to live up to their promises.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Redundant]

If they are all basically the same game at the core, yes.

 

All most all these games follow the same model. Yes they have small things that make them different but the basic core is the very close.

 

 

This is even true outside of P2P

 

RTS = Starcraft

FPS = CoD

 

 

Lots of geners are also domminted by one titles

 

Ahh I see. You believe that if something came out that was very different to the standard MMO formula of Get quest, complete and hand in, gear grind etc... It could rival WoW?

 

Interesting. I don't think I could disagree with that. Something very different could bring in a lot of players, just due to the fact that its different. I'm sure many of us enjoy the tried and true method of questing but something fresh would be nice.

 

I mean the reason I feel that F2P is the future of MMO's is because there are very few companies out there that would risk something different. And as the years have proven, you try to go up against WoW using the same formula and your not going to be as successful.

[Kaisernick]

The problem is the story only last so long. Most people don't play many toons.

 

Then you are left look at stuff like this.

 

if you are a PvPer

 

4 warzones (only 8 players)

 

or

 

9+ warzones(10-40players)

Arena

World PvP areas

World built for people to run into each other.

 

This is when your money start to look like it might be spent better somewhere esle

 

i dont disagree that wow has more end game but they are 8 or more years old

and i dont disagree that TOR's endgame was awful it goes from amazing story to typical mmo grind.

 

but i still wouldnt waste any more money on wow id rather not play a mmo, which is my plan.

[Kleve]

patches are not content there bug fixes.

if u read the article you see that they promised CONTENT almost every mounth something which we didnt get if anything they removed more per mounth than they did add.

 

I was being sarcastic I was poking fun at the constant bungling they've done.

 

I was agreeing Gidoru's assertion, they haven't REALLY provided any new content AT ALL.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Kleve

[AshlaBoga]

I think it was the lack of endgame that killed SWTOR:

 

PvP? 4 WZs.... get's boring after you've done them all +100 times.

 

PvE? 3 Ops, a couple of HM flashpoints. And 1 decent world boss.

 

What killed SWTOR?

 

The lack of content.

[Andryah]

No, it represents a market shift.

 

You represent a whiny self-entitled section of the fanbase, OP.

 

Nailed it! Nailed it right there.

[FeelFlow]

I'd love to know what exactly happened in the development of TOR.

 

Yeah, it probably was released too early.

 

But they also made some bad decisions - I remember reading an interview around the fall of 2011 where they were saying something like that they didn't need a LFG tool. Hmm, I mean... Really?

 

And who decided to mix up WoWs armour with the SW IP?

 

And let's not mention the worst mistake.... Not being able to pull down your Jedi robe hood!

Edited August 1, 2012 by FeelFlow

[Kaisernick]

I was being sarcastic I was poking fun at the constant bungling they've done.

 

I was agreeing Gidoru's assertion, they haven't REALLY provided any new content AT ALL.

 

fair enougth i apolgise sarcasam is hard to read

 

I think it was the lack of endgame that killed SWTOR:

 

PvP? 4 WZs.... get's boring after you've done them all +100 times.

 

PvE? 3 Ops, a couple of HM flashpoints. And 1 decent world boss.

 

What killed SWTOR?

 

The lack of content.

agreed the leveling was perfect could not have been better and its something that any future mmo developer should consider.

but yes the fact that once thats over you go to endless grinding for gear that exisists i all other mmos and that people are sick and tierd of was really what killed it.

i did a few HM FP on my main but my 3 other alts that i got to lvl 50 i never even touched any endgame i just played a different class for their story.

[Gidoru]

 

But they also made some bad decisions - I remember reading an interview around the fall of 2011 where they were saying something like that they didn't need a LFG tool. Hmm, I mean... Really?

 

This was probably just a PR move, they knew it was a feature people wanted and it wasnt ready, so rather than say its not finished yet, they merely say its not needed.

[Kharnis]

Nailed it! Nailed it right there.

 

If by "nailed it," you mean "completely failed to understand why the game tanked" and "in no way understands what the term self-entitled actually means," then yes. He most certainly nailed it.

[Mallorik]

The same thing that killed swtor is the same thing that killed every other AAA mmo that came out since wow was released. they released an inferior half done product to compete with a sucessful established polished product.

 

I dont understand why so many people think its a trend to f2p that is killing these games. If there were even one example of a well made finished game that had all or even most of the mmo features considered staples of the genre i might believe that theory, but there are none.

 

Most of the AAA mmos that have been released and failed since wow have released with a huge turn out, millions of people bought and played them for a few months knowing that they were a monthly sub game, the people left because the game wasnt good enough to justify a monthly sub, if the trend was towards f2p why would almost 2 million people buy and play swtor knowing that it wasnt f2p?

 

In no other industry do people release inferior products to compete with their superior competition then scratch their heads when they fail, what makes people fall for the excuses of companies that obviously screwed up when it comes to mmos?

 

Could you imagine someone releasing a smart phone without a touch screen feature or wi-fi access then saying the reason nobody is buying it over the iphone is because its not free?

[Crimson_Merc]

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html

 

This article sums it up quite succintly.

 

You can make excuses all you want, saying that the MMO market has shifted to F2P, but the reality is that the failure of SWTOR to reach its potential is 100% on you.

 

You promised frequent content and story updates.

You had a very large team.

You did not deliver.

What happened?

 

7 Months in and you have only added one medium size content update, basic features that should have been in at launch and NO story updates at all. What happened to story as a new MMO pillar? What happened to all this supposed story you wrote.

 

Let this be a lesson to your EA overlords (although you know they will simply do the same thing over and over) STOP RUSHING OUT GAMES BEFORE THEY ARE FINISHED.

Where high profile high potential games are concerned, you will make MORE money by polishing and actually finishing a game rather than releasing a half finished crappy product. You will make MORE money by building brand loyalty rather than destroying it by releasing crap. What is so difficult to understand about this? While you're at it please fire your management and hire people that actually understand how to run a game business.

 

This is why I canceled my sub. Bioware are liars and this game is crap compared to the KOTOR games. They don't even have a lot of the game mechanics that made those games awesome! I am staying away from all Bioware in the feature because now I only associate them with disappointment and failure.

[Andryah]

Something very different could bring in a lot of players, just due to the fact that its different. I'm sure many of us enjoy the tried and true method of questing but something fresh would be nice.

 

I don't agree.

 

TSW for example is very different then WoW in many ways. The problem is it is too different, so it is and will always be a niche game for people who accept and enjoy that it is fundamentally different in it's approach to MMOs. The number one QQ in TSW is "it's tooo hard", "I need access to all my abilities", "I don't want to have to think seriously about making an effective skill build" etc. etc.

 

See, what happens is a company offers an genuine alternative style of play in an MMO and the locusts hop from WoW or a WoWesque MMO and then demand it be changed to match what they are used to instead of embracing change and enjoying it. An other example: people whine all the time about wanting out of "forced trinity play", yet when they are faced with the flexibility and capability in a game like TSW what they dois quickly figure out how to contrain their play and the play of group mates right back into the trinity.

 

Honestly, you cannot take most MMO players at their word for what they want. They either don't know, are unwilling to embrace, or are just being impulsively flippant.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Andryah

[krystianswtor]

You can say the market shifted but the truth is you cant say BW lived up to their promises because that would be a lie

[Gidoru]

The same thing that killed swtor is the same thing that killed every other AAA mmo that came out since wow was released. they released an inferior half done product to compete with a sucessful established polished product.

 

I dont understand why so many people think its a trend to f2p that is killing these games. If there were even one example of a well made finished game that had all or even most of the mmo features considered staples of the genre i might believe that theory, but there are none.

 

Most of the AAA mmos that have been released and failed since wow have released with a huge turn out, millions of people bought and played them for a few months knowing that they were a monthly sub game, the people left because the game wasnt good enough to justify a monthly sub, if the trend was towards f2p why would almost 2 million people buy and play swtor knowing that it wasnt f2p?

 

Could you imagine someone releasing a smart phone without a touch screen feature or wi-fi access then saying the reason nobody is buying it over the iphone is because its not free?

 

Pretty much this, thanks.

 

In no other industry do people release inferior products to compete with their superior competition then scratch their heads when they fail, what makes people fall for the excuses of companies that obviously screwed up when it comes to mmos?

The auto industry and the recent bail outs come to mind, but generally speaking ya.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Mallorik]

This was probably just a PR move, they knew it was a feature people wanted and it wasnt ready, so rather than say its not finished yet, they merely say its not needed.

 

No, they really thought that. just like they thought dual specs werent something they needed or a combat window was a bad thing to have in an mmo. This is the reason the game tanked, because the people making the decisions had absolutely no idea what mmo players wanted in a game.

[Hambunctious]

The same thing that killed swtor is the same thing that killed every other AAA mmo that came out since wow was released. they released an inferior half done product to compete with a sucessful established polished product.

 

I dont understand why so many people think its a trend to f2p that is killing these games. If there were even one example of a well made finished game that had all or even most of the mmo features considered staples of the genre i might believe that theory, but there are none.

 

Most of the AAA mmos that have been released and failed since wow have released with a huge turn out, millions of people bought and played them for a few months knowing that they were a monthly sub game, the people left because the game wasnt good enough to justify a monthly sub, if the trend was towards f2p why would almost 2 million people buy and play swtor knowing that it wasnt f2p?

 

In no other industry do people release inferior products to compete with their superior competition then scratch their heads when they fail, what makes people fall for the excuses of companies that obviously screwed up when it comes to mmos?

 

Could you imagine someone releasing a smart phone without a touch screen feature or wi-fi access then saying the reason nobody is buying it over the iphone is because its not free?

 

^This guy nailed it. It has nothing to do with being "self entitled". If it was good enough, many more people would pay to play. End of story

[Sobur]

Yeah how dare bioware not start off with the same amount of content as a mmo that has been around for 10 years. j/k People get butt hurt way too easy, there could of been good and bad reasons they didn't release everything they said would be out by now. Also no mmo is bullet proof, WOW is losing alot of subscribers and also check wow guild activity 2 months after a new expansion. lol

 

Anyways so far i think they are doing a good job and alot of cool stuff is on the horizon.