why do people think sorc are bad ?

[warultima]

 

As it stands, in a full length voidstar I can still put up 250-300k damage while healing 200. Still, I'm at a point where I'm wondering if maybe I should just give up healing and try full DPS for a bit. Is it the 13/28 spec I read about?

 

To go DPS in PvP you actually have 3 choices.

 

1. 31 Madness: One of the highest dps spec sorcs have thats viable in PvP. You can also spec into having a little bit of self healing from your dot crit. Creeping Darkness while the damage is pretty laughable its your bread and butter spell and your only reliable root on short CD. Creeping also provides you as a 3rd form of dots that can also crits which result in self healing. More suspectible to melee training you is its main drawback, force issue in sustained combat. You can use the rest of the points to get better bubble and reduced cost going into lightning or go corruption to get faster Dark Infusion cast and make it (Dark Infusion/Dark Heal) 75% resistance to push backs.

 

2. 13/28: Its also one of the most popular spec that's also capable of outputting max dps as sorc. This spec is like the middle ground of "Death Lightning" and "31 Madness" spec. You retain maximum dot damage from madness tree. At expense of "mainly" your creeping darkness. In return you get to pick up electric binding aka root on knock back and 50% chance for affliction crit to proc lightning barrage. This spec is better against multiple melee training you due to aoe roots, also force issue in long sustained battle.

 

3. Death Ligntning: There's a few variations to this spec, base spec 0/21/20. Goal of this spec is to pick up almost all the control abilities sorcs have (mainly in lightning tree). Biggest advantage of this spec is "Backslash" the ghetto 3 second aoe CC on Static Barrier break. Best spec to shake melee train as the cost of no ranged root from creeping as well as 30% surge bonus to all your dots and your death field. This spec is gaining popularity rightnow due to more melee FotM rightnow and overall melee domination in WZ. The drawback of this spec as mentioned is lower overall damage. You are basically a dot class with no surge bonus attached to your dots. Good part aside from having sorc's most OP'ed CC at your disposal is you also have nearly unlimited force.

Edited August 3, 2012 by warultima

[islander]

Thank you sir! Wish I could upvote you reddit style.

 

I'm still undecided, but figure I should really try this out. I really like the 17 point madness/corruption I run now though... I guess on Fatman I'm just been a bit surprised at how few operative and especially merc healers I see/get grouped with. Everyone cries about sorcerers, yet seems like there are 3 in every warzone (myself included) nonetheless.

Edited August 3, 2012 by islander

[PloGreen]

Sorcs are easiest to kill, that is why people/teams focus them down first. This would be okay if we could do PT burst, but we don't.

 

Less survivability than PT/Maurader, with less burst than PT/Mauarader. I am not sure why people keep arguing this point. Sorcs need a burst buff or defensive buff, we can't keep having the worst of both sides.

 

Sorc/sage are a hybrid class in that they can still heal and dps even if they do not spec into heals. This is the part people forget. We are not a pure dps class, we are not a burst damage class. We do not have hard defensive cooldowns because of that reason. Im not saying all is perfect but you will never get burst like a pt or mara, pointless to ask for it.

[Nocadoj]

Sorc/sage are a hybrid class in that they can still heal and dps even if they do not spec into heals. This is the part people forget. We are not a pure dps class, we are not a burst damage class. We do not have hard defensive cooldowns because of that reason. Im not saying all is perfect but you will never get burst like a pt or mara, pointless to ask for it.

 

By your logic, PTs are a hybrid class because they can guard, so why do they have the highest burst?

 

Mauraders are acceptable by your logic, so no beef there.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Nocadoj

[islander]

Sorc/sage are a hybrid class in that they can still heal and dps even if they do not spec into heals. This is the part people forget. We are not a pure dps class, we are not a burst damage class. We do not have hard defensive cooldowns because of that reason. Im not saying all is perfect but you will never get burst like a pt or mara, pointless to ask for it.

 

Mostly agree here. Name another class that can, if they aren't bad, hit 200k/200k in a voidstar reliably?

I typically get in the 425-525k range for full length ones, with the actual split varying depending on my group composition and how aggressively I get focused by the opponent. My personal preference is 2/3 healing 1/3 damage dealing...but sometimes warzone group distributions dictate differently.

 

Still, we could use a modest defensive buff, maybe something like taking static field and giving you a temporary armor buff while it's up (this would only apply to you...not the others you bubble)

Edited August 3, 2012 by islander

[PloGreen]

To go DPS in PvP you actually have 3 choices.

 

1. 31 Madness: One of the highest dps spec sorcs have thats viable in PvP. You can also spec into having a little bit of self healing from your dot crit. Creeping Darkness while the damage is pretty laughable its your bread and butter spell and your only reliable root on short CD. Creeping also provides you as a 3rd form of dots that can also crits which result in self healing. More suspectible to melee training you is its main drawback, force issue in sustained combat. You can use the rest of the points to get better bubble and reduced cost going into lightning or go corruption to get faster Dark Infusion cast and make it (Dark Infusion/Dark Heal) 75% resistance to push backs.

 

2. 13/28: Its also one of the most popular spec that's also capable of outputting max dps as sorc. This spec is like the middle ground of "Death Lightning" and "31 Madness" spec. You retain maximum dot damage from madness tree. At expense of "mainly" your creeping darkness. In return you get to pick up electric binding aka root on knock back and 50% chance for affliction crit to proc lightning barrage. This spec is better against multiple melee training you due to aoe roots, also force issue in long sustained battle.

 

3. Death Ligntning: There's a few variations to this spec, base spec 0/21/20. Goal of this spec is to pick up almost all the control abilities sorcs have (mainly in lightning tree). Biggest advantage of this spec is "Backslash" the ghetto 3 second aoe CC on Static Barrier break. Best spec to shake melee train as the cost of no ranged root from creeping as well as 30% surge bonus to all your dots and your death field. This spec is gaining popularity rightnow due to more melee FotM rightnow and overall melee domination in WZ. The drawback of this spec as mentioned is lower overall damage. You are basically a dot class with no surge bonus attached to your dots. Good part aside from having sorc's most OP'ed CC at your disposal is you also have nearly unlimited force.

 

Some more advice. Pick up the 2 set heal bonus from war hero gear, swap out the mods so you get a 17 second force shield reactivation instead of 20.

 

My hybrid spec is a bit different, in that I put 2 points into more crit and drop one in tele effusion, and dont bother with tele wave proc from aoe or whatever - not worth the dps loss (imo). I do this to make up for crit loss and to push out a bit more power. Crit sits at around 35% over 300 surge - 880 bonus damage or so. Swapping mods and min maxing are vital to getting the most out of hybrid but you will live longer as hybrid because of bubble mez stun (against melee).

Edited August 3, 2012 by PloGreen

[islander]

Some more advice. Pick up the 2 set heal bonus from war hero gear, swap out the mods so you get a 17 second force shield instead of 20.

 

My hybrid spec is a bit different, in that I put 2 points into more crit and drop one in tele effusion, and dont bother with tele wave proc from aoe or whatever - not worth the dps loss (imo).

 

That's good because I've always run with both the 17 second CD and the 2 set pve bonus that drops innervate to 7.5 seconds. For the longest time, up until maybe a month ago, I stuck with 31 point corruption.

 

Just got tired of being a pinata (edit: that also hit like a wet noodle).

Edited August 3, 2012 by islander

[PloGreen]

By your logic, PTs are a hybrid class because they can guard, so why do they have the highest burst?

 

Mauraders are acceptable by your logic, so no beef there.

 

You want to hit like a mara or pt when our mechanics are totally different? Ok..

[Nocadoj]

You want to hit like a mara or pt when our mechanics are totally different? Ok..

 

Not necessarily, I just feel that we need one or the other. More survivability or more burst, I don't care which.

 

In addition, mechanics can be different and have the same results, so I don't understand where you are going with that.

 

Just because a ranged Glass Cannon has a ranged mechanic(s), doesn't mean a melee Glass Cannon that has a melee mechanic(s) should do less or more.

 

A good example of this is Operative Healers vs Sorc Healers, completely different playstyles and mechanics. Is there any reason for one to be better than the other?

Edited August 3, 2012 by Nocadoj

[TonyDragonflame]

Sorcs such amazing, what need nerf!

[PloGreen]

Mostly agree here. Name another class that can, if they aren't bad, hit 200k/200k in a voidstar reliably?

I typically get in the 425-525k range for full length ones, with the actual split varying depending on my group composition and how aggressively I get focused by the opponent. My personal preference is 2/3 healing 1/3 damage dealing...but sometimes warzone group distributions dictate differently.

 

Still, we could use a modest defensive buff, maybe something like taking static field and giving you a temporary armor buff while it's up (this would only apply to you...not the others you bubble)

 

To be honest its very hard to make changes to sage/sorc without tipping it into op territory. I don't think we are in a great place right now, but I think if adjustments are made there will still be a trade off.

 

People complain about both defences, and lack of burst. We only ever had aoe burst in tele wave proc, that got canned. Full telekinesis has average spike damage, but its too immobile and takes far too long to setup damage to be viable in pvp.

 

Balance is too weak in terms of force resources and is very weak against melee trains, despite having a really nice root in sever force.

 

So you are left with hybrid and that signicantly reduces your dps output on your dots. However the better force resources, cc, etc are more valuable to your team in that you can shield your team mates without worrying about dropping too much force. You essentially play the class as support and pressure.

 

I would like to see either some reorganization of talents or possibly only one of the following:-

 

A skill for balance that allows incoming damage to be converted into force, an absorb if u will.

 

2 min cooldown in combat force regen (a bit like evocate in wow, still interuptable etc).

 

A life draining/force leeching mechanic (channeled spell).

 

Main problem is basically the 31 point balance tree that is very strong in pvp is totally worthless when your force runs out so quickly and the survivability is extremely poor unless you spec hybrid - in which case your dps takes a 30% reduction on periodic criticals.

[PloGreen]

Not necessarily, I just feel that we need one or the other. More survivability or more burst, I don't care which.

 

In addition, mechanics can be different and have the same results, so I don't understand where you are going with that.

 

Just because a ranged Glass Cannon has a ranged mechanic(s), doesn't mean a melee Glass Cannon that has a melee mechanic(s) should do less or more.

 

A good example of this is Operative Healers vs Sorc Healers, completely different playstyles and mechanics. Is there any reason for one to be better than the other?

 

When have sages ever been glass cannons? They dont do burst, they do sustained pressure and situational aoe. They are more akin to disc priests crossed with ele shamans than mages.

 

If we were meant to have hard defensive cooldowns we would have them - we dont because we can heal ourselves, bubble ourselves and our allies. The nearest class comparable to maras in terms of hard defensive cooldowns in ranged is probably a sniper/gunslinger - they do considerable burst and have good defences - but they cannot heal themselves or their allies.

 

If you want comparable mechanics to that of a pt or mara in terms of defences and burst, then you will have to lose something else - a nerf to heals, or dps - otherwise we become the new fotm class and will be op. What we need is a skill to give us better force resources, or some reorganization of the trees so people dont have to gimp their dps just so they can survive multiple maras etc.

[Nocadoj]

When have sages ever been glass cannons? They dont do burst, they do sustained pressure and situational aoe. They are more akin to disc priests crossed with ele shamans than mages.

 

Healer Sorc, Disc priest yes. But DPS Sorc no, more like Shadow Priest without dispersion, or even Affliction Lock without soul link/port/fear.

 

So I guess we are Glass Pressure Players? When our dots can be dispelled easily. Exciting. Affliction Locks are pressure play classes because of Unstable Affliction, but we have no such ability and our "pressure" can be cleansed.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Regular Warzones aren't the problem, Rated Warzones where you are constantly trained/rooted/snared is the problem. Not as much burst as Maurader or PT and not as much survival as Maurader.

 

We are suppose to be the glass cannons but has no cannon and surely has the glass.

 

I typically top damage and medals in Warzones as well, mainly because people in regulars have no idea what they are doing. I feel like more of a reliability in Rateds because I require so much attention from the rest of my team in regards to peels guards taunts cleanses. It is just easier for teams to bring in a Sniper, PT, Maurader and not have to worry as much about all that stuff.

 

We have the lowest survivability out of any DPS, in fact. Without a single defensive cooldown, not counting shield for obvious reasons (it being on GCD and it being more of a solo mechanic, as it removes the ability of the sage healer to cast it on you)

[PloGreen]

Healer Sorc, Disc priest yes. But DPS Sorc no, more like Shadow Priest without dispersion, or even Affliction Lock without soul link/port/fear.

 

So I guess we are Glass Pressure Players? When our dots can be dispelled easily. Exciting. Affliction Locks are pressure play classes because of Unstable Affliction, but we have no such ability and our "pressure" can be cleansed.

 

Whether you like it or not, we are not a burst class. Im not having a go just pointing it out. They removed tele wave on proc because they did not want us to have aoe burst. I dont think we will ever get burst/dots/heals all at once - this is why the middle tree is more spikey and the balance tree is more dot/periodic based. The nearest thing we have to burst now is force in balance/deathfield and that is used to increase dot damage as well - typically hitting between 3.5 to 4.2k for me. I dont think we will get more burst without losing something else.

[Nocadoj]

Whether you like it or not, we are not a burst class. Im not having a go just pointing it out. They removed tele wave on proc because they did not want us to have aoe burst. I dont think we will ever get burst/dots/heals all at once - this is why the middle tree is more spikey and the balance tree is more dot/periodic based. The nearest thing we have to burst now is force in balance/deathfield and that is used to increase dot damage as well - typically hitting between 3.5 to 4.2k for me. I dont think we will get more burst without losing something else.

 

I agree about us not having burst, and that is fine as long as we get some survivability. Most good teams that I have tried to play on already have a Sorc Healer and do not wish to bring another Sorc DPS because we require the same amount of peels/tank attention as the other healers. I can't seem to convince people to bring a Sorc DPS over a Marauder because they do just as much damage, more burst, and require less team defense to sustain.

 

Is it possible to have a good Sorc DPS on a good rwz team, yes. Is it easier and more effective to just bring a good Marauder or PT instead, yes.

 

DoT pressure can be countered by cleanses, pure burst damage can't.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Nocadoj

[PloGreen]

I agree about us not having burst, and that is fine as long as we get some survivability. Most good teams that I have tried to play on already have a Sorc Healer and do not wish to bring another Sorc DPS because we require the same amount of peels/tank attention as the other healers. I can't seem to convince people to bring a Sorc DPS over a Marauder because they do just as much damage, more burst, and require less team defense to sustain.

 

Is it possible to have a good Sorc DPS on a good rwz team, yes. Is it easier and more effective to just bring a good Marauder or PT instead, yes.

 

DoT pressure can be countered by cleanses, pure burst damage can't.

 

Unfortunatley much of the pvp community probably agree with what you say and to a point so do I. The only drawback of course being that a mara cannot friendly pull, shield their team mates or off heal (though they can do small dot heals in the right specs for their team mates). The only way to "cleanse" burst damage is to cc/los/interupt where appropriate - which is a strength of a sage, especially hybrid sages. Unfortunatley the same thing can be done to us in that we are easily interupted/cced and first to be focused - hence why so many sages are speccing hybrid - for survival and better force resources.

 

So the class does need looking at, but personally I would rather they look at force resources in balance before giving us a hard defensive cooldown. I would rather give out more dps or give me a force leech skill - i dont want an "oh ****" skill so i can just stand there and soak damage - I think a hard defensive cooldown gos against the idea of the class personally. If the defensive cooldown converted incoming damage into force then ye thats more like it, but something like UR/defence screen I think is the wrong way to go.

[Bolanos]

DPS sage's need a damage boost. As it stands right now, we have the weakest armor and we hit the softest. All of you say kite them around, but there is no time for kiting in PvP. It takes us from 30 seconds to 45 seconds to solo one person if there is no one else on the field to interrupt. It takes ALL OTHER CLASSES less then 10 seconds to take down a sage, and lots of times it happens in less then 5 seconds, like from an ops with the stupid acid blade.

 

Our biggest problem is we can't do damage that is comparable to any other class. We start hitting people for UNDER 1k, normally around 500 to 850 points per tick on a channeled cast while other classes are doing twice that. Don't believe me, look at this video:

 

DPS Sage's are far from being balanced. It's also not fair that we are the only class that requires babysitting on the PvP field if we want to survive. Even tanks who have the best armor and hit points do more damage then a DPS Sage.

 

I've always played Wizards in all the other MMO's, I like the range, play Sniper in shooter games, which is why I went with sage, but it looks like we should have gone with shadow if we wanted to be a DPS class although you can only do the dps from half the range. And everyone that say's that we do damage from 30m out, please, everyone that PvP knows that distance in this game is a joke! there are so many gap closers around and everyong is running with sprint on that makes it a joke. Yes, sprint, not force run, you now get sprint at level 1 I believe and that's enough to close the gap. So you understand what 30m does...Your 30m away from me, I hit Tele Throw (pebbles), and if your moving towards me, by the time my channeling is done, your already on top of me landing the first hit. So while we are doing 750 damage per second, your doing upwards of 1k per second, yea, I can see the balance there Look at the video, look at the damage discrepancy and tell me if that is actually Balanced! That there is every day PvP for a dps sage

[warultima]

DPS sage's need a damage boost. As it stands right now, we have the weakest armor and we hit the softest. All of you say kite them around, but there is no time for kiting in PvP. It takes us from 30 seconds to 45 seconds to solo one person if there is no one else on the field to interrupt. It takes ALL OTHER CLASSES less then 10 seconds to take down a sage, and lots of times it happens in less then 5 seconds, like from an ops with the stupid acid blade.

 

Our biggest problem is we can't do damage that is comparable to any other class. We start hitting people for UNDER 1k, normally around 500 to 850 points per tick on a channeled cast while other classes are doing twice that. Don't believe me, look at this video:

 

DPS Sage's are far from being balanced. It's also not fair that we are the only class that requires babysitting on the PvP field if we want to survive. Even tanks who have the best armor and hit points do more damage then a DPS Sage.

 

I've always played Wizards in all the other MMO's, I like the range, play Sniper in shooter games, which is why I went with sage, but it looks like we should have gone with shadow if we wanted to be a DPS class although you can only do the dps from half the range. And everyone that say's that we do damage from 30m out, please, everyone that PvP knows that distance in this game is a joke! there are so many gap closers around and everyong is running with sprint on that makes it a joke. Yes, sprint, not force run, you now get sprint at level 1 I believe and that's enough to close the gap. So you understand what 30m does...Your 30m away from me, I hit Tele Throw (pebbles), and if your moving towards me, by the time my channeling is done, your already on top of me landing the first hit. So while we are doing 750 damage per second, your doing upwards of 1k per second, yea, I can see the balance there Look at the video, look at the damage discrepancy and tell me if that is actually Balanced! That there is every day PvP for a dps sage

 

I still feel sympathy extremely strongly to those who playing Assassin/Shadow, Mara/Sent, as well as PT/VG that still having such a hard time against a sorc or sage.