Bioware, please don't give up, we love TOR!

[NinjaApacHe]

You really need to step back and look at what people are saying. Here in the forums and with their wallets. SWTOR is failing badly. And part of the reason for that is because the devs wear the same blinders you do.

 

Noone here wants SWTOR to fail. They are telling the devs what is wrong with their product. But if the devs continue to wear the same blinders you do, then this game will continue to fail. More people are leaving this game every day.

 

Is that what you want?

 

SWTOR is not failing, if people who are playing it are enjoying it. Servers are now full and life is good in the realms. What's the meaning of success for you? More numbers than WoW? Forget it. I've always been an elitist, and WoW is everything but a place for elitists. It's for the mass. You need no brain to play it, no immagination, no nothing. Your life has to be voted to the nihilism God.

 

 

EDIT: I changes the last sentence cause I'm italian and confused some english terms.

Edited July 27, 2012 by NinjaApacHe

[Rafaman]

Even though I see no evidence that BW has given up, I agree with the intent of the post OP. Plenty of us here to make this game profitable and worth the effort to maintain.

[--Grim--]

Ahahahah, no just tired of "Engame is killing SWTOR".

 

You don't like the truth... got it.

 

Take your blinders off son. SWTOR's endgame is bad, the sooner the devs acknowledge that and fix it, the sooner they can stop some of the bleeding.

 

Of course, that isn't the only problem with SWTOR, but fixing it requres the least resources and gets the most bang for the buck.

 

 

And btw, I have you beat in age... and mmo pedigree (muds). I'll just leave it at that.

Edited July 27, 2012 by --Grim--

[DarthTHC]

SWTOR is not failing, if people who are playing it are enjoying it. Servers are now full and life is good in the realms. What's the meaning of success for you? More numbers than WoW? Forget it. I've always been an elitist, and WoW is everything but a place for elitists. It's for the mass. You need no brain to play it, no immagination, no nothing. Your life as to be voted to the annihilation God.

 

I don't know what that last sentence means...

 

The first sentence, SWTOR does seem to be failing...

 

EA has released a significant portion of the development team, including some leaders on that team. Yes, all games release development staff upon release. But these releases seem pretty large in comparison to team size. We don't know for sure what's happening, but we can reliably assume that games that are thriving don't release a significant number of resources and might even add them.

 

EA has completely ceased communicating about new features and content and timeframes for same. (But if you can find anything in the past few weeks to refute that, please do link it.) While this may mean nothing has changed (that's their communication "style"), it has been much longer than usual since we've heard anything. Games that are thriving tend to have regular publish cycles in which new features and/or content are released and the publishers of those games tend to communicate with their communities about what's coming and when.

 

Notice the word "seems" way up there. There's no way to be certain. Given the lack of certainty, we can either take what EA says at face value... but wait they haven't said anything... or discern from their actions the truth of the matter. Actions, not words because words are cheap and actions are usually reliable.

 

It's a good skill to have - distilling meaning behind actions while treating any words with skepticism. It's a skill learned over time, generally, and leads to wisdom.

Edited July 27, 2012 by DarthTHC

[NinjaApacHe]

And btw, I have you beat in age.

 

Then I like you! Finally an old guy!!!!

[--Grim--]

SWTOR is not failing, if people who are playing it are enjoying it. Servers are now full and life is good in the realms. What's the meaning of success for you? More numbers than WoW? Forget it. I've always been an elitist, and WoW is everything but a place for elitists. It's for the mass. You need no brain to play it, no immagination, no nothing. Your life as to be voted to the annihilation God.

 

The servers were full, but even those new "full" servers are continuing to lose players.

 

I don't care about WoW numbers. Success for SWTOR is a stable playerbase that can pay for expanded content and the LucasArts license fee. No matter what you want to believe, the playerbase is still declining. The LucasArts license fee is very substantial. None of us know the exact number, but anyone that has followed this game, knows it to be a major overhead addition to their bottom line.

Edited July 27, 2012 by --Grim--

[Lateris]

I love the game and will stick with it. I just want to see it grow in terms of content and move away from the feedback that copied the wow design. Our community and BioWare are better than Blizzards wow. I say we come together as a community for this.

[NinjaApacHe]

The servers were full, but even those new "full" servers are continuing to lose players.

 

I don't care about WoW numbers. Success for SWTOR is a stable playerbase that can pay for expanded content and the LucasArts license fee. No matter what you want to believe, the playerbase is still declining. The LucasArts license fee is very substantial. None of us know the exact number, but anyone that has followed this game, knows it to be a major overhead addition to their bottom line.

 

I do not see them losing numbers. Always 3 istances of fleet during prime times on my server right since merge.

[Fornix]

Almost everyone's endgame is more fun than SWTOR's. EQ, EQ2, WoW, AoC, etc, etc,, all of them have a more interesting endgame that has variety and depth.

 

SWTOR's endgame sucks and you know it. The same boring dailies over and over and a couple flashpoints. None of which are that challenging or fun.

 

Besides that there is nothing else to do. Crafting is pointless, minigames are nonexistant, world PvP is a joke. etc etc.

 

Yes, and of those games which you mention, how many have been on the market for just 7 months?

 

In a later on post you mention Naxxramas as an example of a good WoW raid, however, you appear to be forgetting that Naxxramas didn't get introduced until patch 1.11 in june 2006; roughly 18 months after the game's initial launch.

 

When WoW hit the market, we got Onyxia, 1 boss dragon's lair, and MC with about 8 bosses. Then in march 2005, roughly 5 months after the game's launch we yet didn't recieve any new raid, but 2 new outdoor world bosses.

 

In May 2005, 7 months post launch, WoW recieved it's first event, and PvP honor got introduced. And not till July 2006 did Blackwing lair get introduced with about 8 bosses, 9 months post launch.

 

 

As some people don't seem to understand however, you can't crank 12 years of development time into a 3-4 year development cycle. Sure you can pace up a little bit, but miracles aint going to happen. So far, SWTOR has been on a faster release rate than WoW had. The overall number of raid encounters and raid bosses is higher, the number of world bosses is bigger, the number of warzones is more and in terms of events we had the first event sooner after launch.

[Diktat]

I do not see them losing numbers. Always 3 istances of fleet during prime times on my server right since merge.

in my server we had 2 full instances at merge, we even had queues. Yesterday at 9 pm we had 1 full instance and only 56 players in teh second. I know it not because I'm checking how many players are in the game, but because happened that I logged directely in that second instance and I was shocked by that low number in fleet at a peak hour until I realized I was in the second instance.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Diktat

[--Grim--]

Yes, and of those games which you mention, how many have been on the market for just 7 months?

 

In a later on post you mention Naxxramas as an example of a good WoW raid, however, you appear to be forgetting that Naxxramas didn't get introduced until patch 1.11 in june 2006; roughly 18 months after the game's initial launch.

 

When WoW hit the market, we got Onyxia, 1 boss dragon's lair, and MC with about 8 bosses. Then in march 2005, roughly 5 months after the game's launch we yet didn't recieve any new raid, but 2 new outdoor world bosses.

 

In May 2005, 7 months post launch, WoW recieved it's first event, and PvP honor got introduced. And not till July 2006 did Blackwing lair get introduced with about 8 bosses, 9 months post launch.

 

 

As some people don't seem to understand however, you can't crank 12 years of development time into a 3-4 year development cycle. Sure you can pace up a little bit, but miracles aint going to happen. So far, SWTOR has been on a faster release rate than WoW had. The overall number of raid encounters and raid bosses is higher, the number of world bosses is bigger, the number of warzones is more and in terms of events we had the first event sooner after launch.

 

Actually, someone else posted about Naxxramas. I'm not much of a WoW fan. Only played it a couple months.

 

But as a rebuttal to your point, just look at Rift. I did play Rift for almost a year. Right out of the gate Rift had much more raid content and endgame content than SWTOR. They are also doing very well. And they release new content all the time.

 

Rift is a new game that succeeded because they understand that mmo players don't want excuses, they want results.

[Fornix]

in my server we had 2 full instances at merge, we even had queues. Yesterday at 9 pm we had 1 full instance and only 56 players in teh second. I know it not because I'm checking how many players are in the game, but because happened that I logged directely in that second instance and I was shocked by that low number in fleet at a peak hour until I realized I was in the second instance.

 

MMO player numbers always tend to come in peaks, that's nothing new really. Land a patch and players resub again to give it a look, start doing the new things for rewards, etc. As soon as they run through the content, they'll put it down on a low pitch again.

 

Once 1.4 hits, you'll probably see some servers as full again on that day.

 

 

Actually, someone else posted about Naxxramas. I'm not much of a WoW fan. Only played it a couple months.

 

But as a rebuttal to your point, just look at Rift. I did play Rift for almost a year. Right out of the gate Rift had much more raid content and endgame content than SWTOR. They are also doing very well. And they release new content all the time.

 

Rift is a new game that succeeded because they understand that mmo players don't want excuses, they want results.

 

Rift succeeded in your opinion, however if you'd ask the people who are having a go at TOR on these forums, Rift will be considered a major fail considering the massive drop in number of subscribers.

 

Additionaly, Rift and SWTOR are two very different styled games, which allowed for Rift to quickly pump out some new encounters rapidly. Whereas SWTOR is expected to deliver more story oriented content as well. BioWare is most probably having people working on that alongside as well.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Fornix

[DarthTHC]

Actually, someone else posted about Naxxramas. I'm not much of a WoW fan. Only played it a couple months.

 

But as a rebuttal to your point, just look at Rift. I did play Rift for almost a year. Right out of the gate Rift had much more raid content and endgame content than SWTOR. They are also doing very well. And they release new content all the time.

 

Rift is a new game that succeeded because they understand that mmo players don't want excuses, they want results.

 

Early in Rift's existence, there was an issue in which a lot of accounts were being stolen. The forums were in an uproar over it with fanboys saying that peoples' computers were compromised and IT pros describing how that couldn't possibly be the case.

 

Then along came a true IT/networking pro who demonstrated to the developers exactly how to get into anyone's account, any time, without knowing their password, without putting any software on their computer. You could literally pick any player you wanted and get into their account once you knew the flaw.

 

To their extreme credit, the Rift developers worked closely with this guy for the next few hours and issued a patch that fixed the problem (that was obviously in their code) within hours of that.

 

Results. Open-mindedness. Communication. Action.

 

What do you think would happen if SWTOR had a similar issue?

 

Too bad I dislike Rift's artwork and can't get into its lore.

[Holden_Dissent]

Actually, someone else posted about Naxxramas. I'm not much of a WoW fan. Only played it a couple months.

 

But as a rebuttal to your point, just look at Rift. I did play Rift for almost a year. Right out of the gate Rift had much more raid content and endgame content than SWTOR. They are also doing very well. And they release new content all the time.

 

Rift is a new game that succeeded because they understand that mmo players don't want excuses, they want results.

 

Rift did not start with more content. They also were missing what people call "several staples for an MMO" at release.

 

I liked Rift and played it for a long time too. They added stuff quicker than any MMO in history. If Rift is doing "very well" then SWTOR is doing phenomenal.

[--Grim--]

Early in Rift's existence, there was an issue in which a lot of accounts were being stolen. The forums were in an uproar over it with fanboys saying that peoples' computers were compromised and IT pros describing how that couldn't possibly be the case.

 

Then along came a true IT/networking pro who demonstrated to the developers exactly how to get into anyone's account, any time, without knowing their password, without putting any software on their computer. You could literally pick any player you wanted and get into their account once you knew the flaw.

 

To their extreme credit, the Rift developers worked closely with this guy for the next few hours and issued a patch that fixed the problem (that was obviously in their code) within hours of that.

 

Results. Open-mindedness. Communication. Action.

 

What do you think would happen if SWTOR had a similar issue?

 

Too bad I dislike Rift's artwork and can't get into its lore.

 

Hah.. yeah those were strange days. I remember a hacker getting on and spouting world messages accross everyone's screeen.

 

But the Rift Devs were very open and very professional about it. And they addressed those issues in a way that the community applauded.

 

I really like the way they dealt with the inevitable server population declines every mmo (except WoW) goes through. They just up and offered free transfers to everyone, once a week, to the server of your choice. And you can still do that. Very cool. And they offered those very soon after they were needed.

Edited July 27, 2012 by --Grim--

[Fardarter]

Hah.. yeah those were strange days. I remember a hacker getting on and spouting world messages accross everyone's screeen.

 

But the Rift Devs were very open and very professional about it. And they addressed those issues in a way that the community applauded.

 

I really like the way they dealt with the inevitable server population declines every mmo (except WoW) goes through. They just up and offered free transfers to everyone, once a week, to the server of your choice. And you can still do that. Very cool. And they offered those very soon after they were needed.

 

AND said transfers take literally 30 seconds, all you need to do is empty your mailbox. this works really well with cross server group finder. If you meet some good peeps you would like to run with again in the future you can all hop to the same server and guild up. Its great design and implementation.

 

Really not fair to compare rift to swtor though. rifts dev team runs laps around swtor's team. That isn't opinion its a fact.

[DarthTHC]

AND said transfers take literally 30 seconds, all you need to do is empty your mailbox. this works really well with cross server group finder. If you meet some good peeps you would like to run with again in the future you can all hop to the same server and guild up. Its great design and implementation.

 

Really not fair to compare rift to swtor though. rifts dev team runs laps around swtor's team. That isn't opinion its a fact.

 

To their credit, SWTOR transfers take about the same amount of time and there have been no reports of technical glitches. So congrats to the SWTOR devs on one feature implemented technically soundly.

[Jmann_]

The game lost a TON of subs. I think there might be more problems than you are willing to admit?

 

agreed, They locked 90% of the servers, and the remaining subbed players just filled the remaining 10% to STANDARD pop... But people still keep calling us doomsayers and haters.

[Fardarter]

MMO player numbers always tend to come in peaks, that's nothing new really. Land a patch and players resub again to give it a look, start doing the new things for rewards, etc. As soon as they run through the content, they'll put it down on a low pitch again.

 

Once 1.4 hits, you'll probably see some servers as full again on that day.

 

 

 

 

Rift succeeded in your opinion, however if you'd ask the people who are having a go at TOR on these forums, Rift will be considered a major fail considering the massive drop in number of subscribers.

 

Additionaly, Rift and SWTOR are two very different styled games, which allowed for Rift to quickly pump out some new encounters rapidly. Whereas SWTOR is expected to deliver more story oriented content as well. BioWare is most probably having people working on that alongside as well.

 

Rift being a success isn't opinion its a fact. Look at the cost of that game vs the number of subs. Look at the content they have added. It's all about scale, swtor SHOULD have MILLIONS of subs and it doesn't. Rift was a low budget title with an unknown world made by a fledgling company. SWTOR was a huge budget game with the star wars IP made by one of the largest game companies on the planet. SWTOR should have blow rift away and yet it hasn't? I don't resent people for defending swtor tooth and nail but honestly if it was such a success it would have more subs and people wouldnt be getting fired or laid off right now.

 

I really hope this game is successful in the long term, I am rooting for it. I just refuse to gloss over its many faults and pretend it is the greatest thing ever, it's not .

[flyersfan]

Almost everyone's endgame is more fun than SWTOR's. EQ, EQ2, WoW, AoC, etc, etc,, all of them have a more interesting endgame that has variety and depth.

 

SWTOR's endgame sucks and you know it. The same boring dailies over and over and a couple flashpoints. None of which are that challenging or fun.

 

Besides that there is nothing else to do. Crafting is pointless, minigames are nonexistant, world PvP is a joke. etc etc.

 

All I ever hear about other games is that they have raids and dungeons, which are equivalent to SW:TOR's Operations and Flashpoints. From what I can tell, they're very similar in terms of PvE endgame content.

 

Open world PvP's failure is a planet design choice that can be fixed in the future. With the new planet and raised level cap, everyone will be on Makeb and BioWare can use that opportunity to make open world PvP fun. PvP right now is based on Warzones, which are still fun. There are only four and they can get old, but they're still fun to play. When I want a change of pace, I queue up in the Group Finder for my Black Hole commendations. It's not bad.

 

Crafting needs a pretty big overhaul. It's quite boring and anything that I make can be replaced shortly after hitting 50. I also can't go to a bench and craft, so I need to rely on my slaves. That whole system should be looked at very closely by the developers.

 

As for minigames, we need Pazaak and some sort of racing. These things were in KotOR and should've been added to SW:TOR. It's really stupid that they weren't included from the beginning.

[VarKoE]

AND said transfers take literally 30 seconds, all you need to do is empty your mailbox. this works really well with cross server group finder. If you meet some good peeps you would like to run with again in the future you can all hop to the same server and guild up. Its great design and implementation.

 

Really not fair to compare rift to swtor though. rifts dev team runs laps around swtor's team. That isn't opinion its a fact.

 

Fact eh. What track and post times and screenshot or it did not happen.

 

Maybe we could even get a rematch since olympics are starting.

[Celebrus]

What do you think would happen if SWTOR had a similar issue?

 

Too bad I dislike Rift's artwork and can't get into its lore.

 

If SWToR had a similar issue they would have closed his thread repeatedly until temp banning him for misuse of the forums and then ignored the issue until they could fix it behind closed doors without ever making an open statement acknowledging the problem.

 

So it would probably have been 2-3 months late, it would probably have lost a few tens of thousands of subs, but who cares? It's Star Wars, and we're riding this IP into the ground.

[Fardarter]

If SWToR had a similar issue they would have closed his thread repeatedly until temp banning him for misuse of the forums and then ignored the issue until they could fix it behind closed doors without ever making an open statement acknowledging the problem.

 

So it would probably have been 2-3 months late, it would probably have lost a few tens of thousands of subs, but who cares? It's Star Wars, and we're riding this IP into the ground.

 

I am no computer expert but I really think its the game engine or a lack of tools for developers to use to implement changes efficiently or a combination of both. It just seems in this game that things that appear on our end to be minor take forever to fix and sometimes even after a fix still have problems. I refuse to believe there aren't talented people on the other end working hard so maybe they what they have to work with is the problem.

 

Basically I don't think there are any simple fixes in swtor if there were most of the stuff many of us reported in beta as problems never would have made it to live. I think there triage going on even now and they simply can't get to everything fast enough.

[Fornix]

I am no computer expert but I really think its the game engine or a lack of tools for developers to use to implement changes efficiently or a combination of both. It just seems in this game that things that appear on our end to be minor take forever to fix and sometimes even after a fix still have problems. I refuse to believe there aren't talented people on the other end working hard so maybe they what they have to work with is the problem.

 

Basically I don't think there are any simple fixes in swtor if there were most of the stuff many of us reported in beta as problems never would have made it to live. I think there triage going on even now and they simply can't get to everything fast enough.

 

The problem most likely isn't the engine. They have a good functioning base engine for it which allows the devs to work on an area the same time, and improved on that engine over the past years.

 

No, the problem much more likely lies within team size, chain of command and too much bureaucracy. It's just like with any major company really. Work on something with a team of 5? Things tend to go rapid, people are easily reached and decisions can be made quickly.

 

Have a group of 30 people working on different aspects? You'll need to start organizing meetings to keep on track, have people aim for the same direction, get approval from those taking leadership in this process, etc.

 

Work with 200 people, there's usually several departments and not at least 2 chains of command to go by to seek approval. Ideas can be created within a group, they need to be discussed with seniority. They in turn need to discuss the idea again with their boss.

 

The same will go for TOR.

 

The guys doing raids for example can come up with cool ideas, discuss this amongst each other. Then they'll have to discuss it with whoever is in charge of lead raid design. He'll discuss it with the lead game developer. And depending on the bigger the change, the bigger the need for the lead game developer to probably need to discuss it even further.

 

And just like with any major company, those things take time. Appointments will need to be made, etc. A simple idea could quickly take 3 weeks to be shot down, and a good idea could easily take 3 months to get final approval.

[Sathid]

I'm 46, playing MMOs since UO. Whats your pedigree Sir?

 

Wait a second i am 42 and i know from a maturity level i would not name one of my toon's Tupakh,sorry but i do not believe you.