Standard Warzones, War Hero and you!

[Calypsonight]

Hello Worms and Germs,

 

Before I begin I would like to say that this is not in anyway a QQ thread. This is instead a thread in which a issue has come from the ranked war zones and I think needs to be looked into. So the formality's are out of the way let us begin.

 

 

 

War hero players / War hero Premades in standard PVP matches. I feel do to the HUGE gear leap that this set provides can throw off the balance in a standard match. What can we do about it you ask? Well worry not I have a idea.

 

 

Tier 1 PVP Matching -

Recruit / Battlemaster

 

Tier 2 PVP matching-

Battlemaster / War - Hero

 

Tier 3 PVP Matching-

War - Hero

 

====================

 

How difficult could it be to balance the PVP matching in this game? Is it possible we could have a gear check if you will that determines your stats and puts you up against others that may be similar? As of right now if a Pug goes against a War hero premade (It's been very common here lately) the likely hood of doing ANYTHING is going to be impossible. Point in example is pug side vrs War Hero premade - Pug 0 / Premade War Hero 600 with 0 deaths.

 

 

 

Any ideas and opinions are very much welcome.

 

Thanks you

[Daiyukie]

Only with cross-server queues.

[Entropicus]

They'd have to initiate a gear score type of stat and the disable any equipping in the WZ to prevent people from queuing in recruit and then swapping out.

[WickedImage]

 

 

 

PVP matching-

Recruit / Battlemaster

 

Rated PVP Matching-

War - Hero

 

 

fixed...

[lpsmash]

Don't separate by gear, it's too complicated. Someone could be full WH with a recruit bracer and what would he be? Or someone could be wearing a few pieces of PvP gear?

 

The only thing like this that could work is matching by valor rank, since there's little difference with this stat. Of couse, someone could be valor 50 and almost still recruit and another valor 20 and full BM (haven't done the math on how much valor it gives you to farm the whole BM set, tbh, but you get the idea). But it is safe to assume that someone with valor rank 90 has all WH gear.

 

Also, since the PvP is grind based, there has to be a perk to having the best gear in the game, whether you like it or not. People who have grinded WH have done so, not only to compete against equally geared players, but also to crush less geared player.

 

I think the best solution is to lower the amount of time it takes to get WH gear by doing normal WZs. Being able to augment all your gear has already greatly diminished the gap between WH and BM.

[Daiyukie]

I think the best solution is to lower the amount of time it takes to get WH gear by doing normal WZs. Being able to augment all your gear has already greatly diminished the gap between WH and BM.

 

The gap between BM and WH, small as it is, is exactly the same with or without augments, because having +18 main stat on BM and +18 main stat on WH retains the exact same gap between those two pieces, they're just both higher now.

[lpsmash]

The gap between BM and WH, small as it is, is exactly the same with or without augments, because having +18 main stat on BM and +18 main stat on WH retains the exact same gap between those two pieces, they're just both higher now.

 

Yes, but it wasn't worth it to rip the mods off BM gear (especially since you lost set bonuses and 100k) in an already augmented piece (usually 200k credits) and put an augment in it (75k).

 

Also, it diminishes the stats difference as a percentage of total stats. Let's say I gain + 40 strength (just an example) from wearing WH instead of BM, but I go from 1500 to 1540.

 

If augments make my strength go from 1500 to 1600 and WH still only adds 40 str, then I got from 1600 to 1640, so the increase is smaller in terms of percentage.

 

And the fact that you can augment all your gear make the "base stats" (assuming you have all your BM gear augmented, which you should) much higher, further making the difference between WH and BM negligible.

 

The only really big advantage that WH has over BM is the quality of stats, such as crit, surge and power instead of accuracy, power and crit.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lpsmash

[Daiyukie]

Yes, but it wasn't worth it to rip the mods off BM gear (especially since you lost set bonuses and 100k) in an already augmented piece (usually 200k credits) and put an augment in it (75k).

... What? It was always worth it to get augments, before 1.3 I had my pistol, hat, chest and legs orange-augmented with BM armoring-mod-enhancement, keeping two-piece PvE set bonus.

Also, it diminishes the stats difference as a percentage of total stats. Let's say I gain + 40 strength (just an example) from wearing WH instead of BM, but I go from 1500 to 1540.

 

If augments make my strength go from 1500 to 1600 and WH still only adds 40 str, then I got from 1600 to 1640, so the increase is smaller in terms of percentage.

Except the difference in main stat from BM to WH is in the range of -5 to +6. If my WH gear gave me +40 cunning per piece then I'd agree that WH players have a huge advantage.

 

As it is, it looks like:

 

Augmented BM = 85 End, 110 Cunning, 40 Power, 51 Surge

Augmented WH= 100 End, 116 Cunning, 42 Power, 53 Surge

 

And the fact that you can augment all your gear make the "base stats" (assuming you have all your BM gear augmented, which you should) much higher, further making the difference between WH and BM negligible.

 

The only really big advantage that WH has over BM is the quality of stats, such as crit, surge and power instead of accuracy, power and crit.

14 x 18 = 252

Add 252 of chosen stat to BM gear, add 252 to WH gear. Note that the difference when subtracted is still the same. Facepalm.

[lpsmash]

14 x 18 = 252

Add 252 of chosen stat to BM gear, add 252 to WH gear. Note that the difference when subtracted is still the same. Facepalm.

 

Are you kidding me? Of course the value, in raw numbers stays the same... But raw numbers aren't much when there's nothing to compare them to.

 

If I say I gain +48 "stat X", how do you know if it's a good upgrade or not? You look at my total stat X, or how much of stat X I had on that piece of gear. If I gain +48 from that piece of gear, but my total of stat X is 1000034949548 instead of 1000034949500, it's not as much of an upgrade as if I go from 100 to 148, is it?

 

So, the fact that you can augment ALL of your gear means you have more stats overall and the Gap between BM and WH is not as big, i.e. it's less of an upgrade than it was before, i.e. gear matters less because augments are "free stats" that don't change with gear level.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lpsmash

[Daiyukie]

Are you kidding me? Of course the value, in raw numbers stays the same... But raw numbers aren't much when there's nothing to compare them to.

 

If I say I gain +48 "stat X", how do you know if it's a good upgrade or not? You look at my total stat X, or how much of stat X I had on that piece of gear. If I gain +48 from that piece of gear, but my total of stat X is 1000034949548 instead of 1000034949500, it's not as much of an upgrade as if I go from 100 to 148, is it?

 

So, the fact that you can augment ALL of your gear means you have more stats overall and the Gap between BM and WH is not as big, i.e. it's less of an upgrade than it was before, i.e. gear matters less because augments are "free stats" that don't change with gear level.

 

And I'm assuming you're augmenting intelligently, i.e. using power or main stat augments, which means that adding the same amount of power or mainstat to BM and WH has no impact on the gap between stats.

 

Unaugmented: 1600-1500= 100

Augmented: 1852-1752= 100

 

Gap is the same.

[khalfani]

And I'm assuming you're augmenting intelligently, i.e. using power or main stat augments, which means that adding the same amount of power or mainstat to BM and WH has no impact on the gap between stats.

 

Unaugmented: 1600-1500= 100

Augmented: 1852-1752= 100

 

Gap is the same.

Stop using math to support your argument.

How dare you introduce logic into this thread!

[Kajuana]

I think he's trying to say, you wouldn't dish out 150K-200K to augment BM gear. (of which 80K you will not get back if you change gear) Unless you are happy with how you look.

[lpsmash]

And I'm assuming you're augmenting intelligently, i.e. using power or main stat augments, which means that adding the same amount of power or mainstat to BM and WH has no impact on the gap between stats.

 

Unaugmented: 1600-1500= 100

Augmented: 1852-1752= 100

 

Gap is the same.

 

I don't think you understand what I mean at all. If you have a great amount of a stat, let's say 100,000,000,000,000, then adding 100 to it won't make as much of a difference as if you add 100 to 1500. I hope you agree with this. Raw numbers don't always mean the same when comparing values.

 

By increasing the stats altogether, via augments, we diminish the impact of getting WH gear. Yes, you get the same raw number increase when going from BM to WH, but that increase is less significant, because everyone have better stats.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lpsmash

[SteffizleESQ]

And I'm assuming you're augmenting intelligently, i.e. using power or main stat augments, which means that adding the same amount of power or mainstat to BM and WH has no impact on the gap between stats.

 

Unaugmented: 1600-1500= 100

Augmented: 1852-1752= 100

 

Gap is the same.

 

Way to use math the wrong way... Try using percentages and you might look like you know what you're talking about.

 

Unaugmented BM>WH... 1500>1600 = 100 point increase... WH is a 6.67% increase (the math goes... 1600/1500-100)

 

Augmented BM>WH... 1752>1852 = 100 point increase still, but WH is 5.71% increase (1852/1752-100)

[lpsmash]

Way to use math the wrong way... Try using percentages and you might look like you know what you're talking about.

 

Unaugmented BM>WH... 1500>1600 = 100 point increase... WH is a 6.67% increase (the math goes... 1600/1500-100)

 

Augmented BM>WH... 1752>1852 = 100 point increase still, but WH is 5.71% increase (1852/1752-100)

 

Thank you. Glad someone understands this, I was going mad.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lpsmash

[Acupunk]

Why are people not comparing Unaugmented BM and Augmented WH. Some of us have no guilds and are poor, especially pugers. What is the % difference between the 2?

 

I mostly only pvp due to limited time, the credit return in that is poor at best. I play to pvp and have fun not figure out spend time to farm so I can figure out/afford to augment.

[lpsmash]

Why are people not comparing Unaugmented BM and Augmented WH. Some of us have no guilds and are poor, especially pugers. What is the % difference between the 2?

 

I mostly only pvp due to limited time, the credit return in that is poor at best. I play to pvp and have fun not figure out spend time to farm so I can figure out/afford to augment.

 

Well then you are out of luck. It is a greater gap than before if you can't afford augments, because players with WH gear will have more augments (relics, implants, etc.).

[Daiyukie]

I don't think you understand what I mean at all. If you have a great amount of a stat, let's say 100,000,000,000,000, then adding 100 to it won't make as much of a difference as if you add 100 to 1500. I hope you agree with this. Raw numbers don't always mean the same when comparing values.

 

By increasing the stats altogether, via augments, we diminish the impact of getting WH gear. Yes, you get the same raw number increase when going from BM to WH, but that increase is less significant, because everyone have better stats.

Using realistic numbers would help, but yes obviously the same additive increase to a higher number is less significant than adding it to a lower number. The actual gap is still the same in terms of upgrade... From a BM Armoring to a WH armoring, you gain 3 endurance and 2 main stat. The augment is equal on both sides, so you can ignore it.

[SteffizleESQ]

Using realistic numbers would help, but yes obviously the same additive increase to a higher number is less significant than adding it to a lower number. The actual gap is still the same in terms of upgrade... From a BM Armoring to a WH armoring, you gain 3 endurance and 2 main stat. The augment is equal on both sides, so you can ignore it.

 

L2Math... The higher overall stats added from 14 Augments makes the upgrade from 14/14 augmented BM to 14/14 augmented WH less significant than the upgrade from 0/14 augmented BM to 0/14 augmented WH. Using the more realistic numbers that YOU provided, it was 0.86% less significant. That really doesn't mean much overall, but still a difference.

 

You don't just get to ignore the augments... I'll be happy to try and explain it in several other ways if you still don't get it.

[Daiyukie]

Way to use math the wrong way... Try using percentages and you might look like you know what you're talking about.

 

Unaugmented BM>WH... 1500>1600 = 100 point increase... WH is a 6.67% increase (the math goes... 1600/1500-100)

 

Augmented BM>WH... 1752>1852 = 100 point increase still, but WH is 5.71% increase (1852/1752-100)

 

I can certainly grant you that, though it's an insignificant difference and what matters when calculating damage or healing is the raw stat, not the % difference between your gear. You're still getting an additive increase when going to WH that will be the same regardless of your current stat number, as with the BM to WH armoring example.

[ArchangelLBC]

The argument that fully augmented BM is a bigger buff over unaugmented BM than fully augmented War Hero is over unaugmented War Hero, as a % increase is completely true and completely irrelevent imo. The original difference isn't enough to matter.

 

 

Anyway this is all besides the point. The point is that as long as the queue is taking members only from your server that implementing a gear score for better matchmaking won't do much but make queue wait times longer meaning everyone without war hero waits longer for their war hero gear cause they can't PVP at all. Once it goes cross server I'm fine with that.

[Daiyukie]

Only with cross-server queues.

 

Second post of thread, thanks for the agreement sir =p All these "implement gear tiers" and such will slow down queues. It was the same story with the "we want Ranked queues" crowd when most servers were Light population; queue times would be nonexistant. Then we get server merges, everyone does Ranked for about two days, gets stomped by the couple teams that actually have skill and crawl back to their Unranked warzones and cry about gear disparity.

 

So now you have "gear score", "tiered warzones", "gear-based matchmaking" complaints when the actual problem is communication, organization and skill. I proved that over the weekend when we got some Ranked pops finally and got destroyed, prompting our tank to ragequit for like the 5th time out of our Ranked group and forcing me to structure things since the PvP-focused Guildmaster wasn't around. I split our 8 into two groups, gave them separate target markers, called a global marker and discussed.

 

The strategy point is the only thing we now have to focus on with these changes, because everyone is at least half War Hero, most of us full, and we all know how to work our class. After implementing my structure, we went from getting roflstomped to being instantly on par with the other Pub group we were going against. Everyone was still wearing the same gear and had the same skill, so all those babies who are afraid of Ranked Queue now; work on communication. That's all there is to it, objectives are held by proper play, not stats.

[lpsmash]

The argument that fully augmented BM is a bigger buff over unaugmented BM than fully augmented War Hero is over unaugmented War Hero, as a % increase is completely true and completely irrelevent imo. The original difference isn't enough to matter.

 

 

Anyway this is all besides the point. The point is that as long as the queue is taking members only from your server that implementing a gear score for better matchmaking won't do much but make queue wait times longer meaning everyone without war hero waits longer for their war hero gear cause they can't PVP at all. Once it goes cross server I'm fine with that.

 

The point I was making (on first page) with the diminished gap between BM and WH (since you can augment all your gear in 1.3, and it is easier to do so) was that only those in recruit gear really have a huge disadvantage and separating the WH from all the others wouldn't be so beneficial, because the BM geared player, with augments (and a few WH pieces here and there, maybe), can compete against WH player. At least, the fight is much less one-sided, mainly because of the augments that diminish the gap between WH and BM gear.

 

The only ones that are screwed are recruits, because it's not worth it to augment recruit gear and those who cannot afford augments for whatever reasons. Also, it is noteworthy that BM gear is not that long to grind, at least when compared to how long it is to grind WH. Talking about a few thousand wz comms next to a few tens of thousand wz comms. The WH weapons take about 6 times as many comms (if you convert from normal to ranked) as the BM weapon.

 

Finally, just augment your BM gear (even blue augments aren't so bad) and you should be able to compete.

 

If you're wearing recruit, you're still ****ed, and even more so considering that almost every players won't augment their recruit gear, the gap between BM and recruit is even higher than before. I don't think a special queue for the recruit would solve anything.

 

Being able to buy BM gear before level 50 with WZ comms or raising the WZ comms cap to something like 6000 would fix a few of these issues.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lpsmash

[ArchangelLBC]

Second post of thread, thanks for the agreement sir =p

 

Oh I know. I felt it was an excellent point and needed to be emphasized and expanded upon. You made it early. I feel it should now be made often =P

 

Being able to buy BM gear before level 50 with WZ comms or raising the WZ comms cap to something like 6000 would fix a few of these issues.

 

As someone who didn't PVP once at all before 50 on either of my toons I agree with this change. It doesn't take long to grind out BM, but man does that grind suck. I'm not touching my shadow again till I can give her full BM.

[Feeblezak]

This would kill pvp.