Astarica Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 This got me thinking further on the issue. When you think about it, Expertise is really a lazy way of separating PvE from PvP. The better way of making the separation would be via the content itself. Make the endgame PvE and PvP content distinctively different. So that different stats, skills, and even ACs are emphasized in the two different formats. The rewards you receive in each area then reflect the needs for the content to be completed. You would therefore tailor make the gear sets for each endgame style to perform better in that setting. So the PvE gear gives you the edge you need to kick azz in an endgame raid. The PvP set gives you the edge you need to do better in PvP. In each set, include mods/enhancements that peeps on both sides would desire so they appeal to min/maxers. Suddenly, you have more players exploring all of the endgame content and PvPing overall. This is a better solution and it would work. Just look at all the carebears that PvP right now for their WH relic, or the PvPers that carebear it up to get armor mods for their orange belts. The barrier is completely unnecessary if the Devs would simply put a little more effort into better endgame design. Um that sounds exactly like WoW's resilence (a stat that is far more useful in PvP than PvE) and WoW is scrapping their system to do Expertise instead. At any rate let's say for the sake of argument accuracy is king in PvP and surge is king in PvE and gear are all itemized to follow this design. Then you'd just have people complain saying their accuracy gear they got from PvP is no good in PvE so they got to grind a set of Surge gear for PvE, or vice versa. Now repalce the word 'accuracy' with 'expertise' and you get exactly the same scenario we started with except we have different nouns that replaced where expertise used to occupy. There's no difference between somehow designing such that PvP favors a certain stats, or just inventing a new stat that is needed for PvP. In the end people are going to complain why do they have to get this whatever stat for PvP because you can't get that from doing PvE, and if you can get it from PvE you've gear progression issues. Now, maybe gear progression itself is a problem, but that is way out of our hands. It is pretty much unfathomable to see MMORPGs do away with this two path of gear progression. Sure, if Campaign and WH gear is sold for 1 credit on a vendor you wouldn't need Expertise at all. For that matter you wouldn't even need the two set of gear to begin with because you can just make one set that does everything if you're giving them away for free. It's even possible that this is actually a good idea but this isn't something we have control over and I don't see such a scenario coming true anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 There's no difference between somehow designing such that PvP favors a certain stats, or just inventing a new stat that is needed for PvP. There are two major differences actually: - An artificial barrier of entry - Balancing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTryHard Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 It is called a time sink. End game content is called a time sink. In most MMO it is gear. Level 1-49 has lots of pve, quests, and stories for content but it is not possible to create those kinds of content every 3 months just to keep subscription money flowing. So MMO companies created gear grinds which are easier to implement. You have to pay the time or the time sink to enjoy the game. If lots of people will pay $15 a month for a game with no time sink or no content, just warzones and endless pvp, then there will be no need for gear grinds. Unfortunately, people will not pay $15 for just endless pvp and warzone experiences. Did you read my post even? I never said anything about removing the PvP gear, I merely suggested that the gap between tiers was made less noticeable, thus making it so you wouldn't have to suffer as much to get to the point where you have balanced PvP. For "grindy" people like you this would also satisfy because there would still be gear progression but it just would make it less "gear > skill"y. L2Read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) The better way of making the separation would be via the content itself. Make the endgame PvE and PvP content distinctively different. So that different stats, skills, and even ACs are emphasized in the two different formats. The rewards you receive in each area then reflect the needs for the content to be completed. You would therefore tailor make the gear sets for each endgame style to perform better in that setting. So the PvE gear gives you the edge you need to kick azz in an endgame raid. The PvP set gives you the edge you need to do better in PvP. In each set, include mods/enhancements that peeps on both sides would desire so they appeal to min/maxers. Suddenly, you have more players exploring all of the endgame content and PvPing overall. This is a better solution and it would work. Just look at all the carebears that PvP right now for their WH relic, or the PvPers that carebear it up to get armor mods for their orange belts. The barrier is completely unnecessary if the Devs would simply put a little more effort into better endgame design. Different stats emphasized in PVP over PVE: Expertise, DPS stats for tank over shield/absorb Different Skills emphasized in PVP over PVE: AoE 8s CCs, 4s stuns, Stealth. Different ACs emphasized in PVP over PVE: DPS PTs/VGs and DPS Operatives/Scoundrels do very very well in PVP but are generally considered inferior to Ranged DPS like Gunnery Commandos/Arsenal Mercs, DPS Sorcs/Sages in PVE. In general DPS which focus more on sustained damage are preferred over pure burst classes in PVE, whereas in PVP its the ability to burst that matters. Different gear to help you conquer the specific Content: War Hero and Battle Master in PVP, Campaign/Black Hole and Rakata in PVE. What you've described is literally the system they have right now. Edited July 27, 2012 by ArchangelLBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iTryHard Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Blah blah blah, carebear, blah blah blah I like how you call people who PvE carebears, nice touch there buddy, hate this kind of attitude in "serious" or "hardcore" PvPers looking down on anything that's not PvP. Not saying anything bad about PvP in general (I like it and play it) but I don't see why you need to insult those who like to do PvE content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donniemac Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 ok so you take expertise out of the equation lets say does that mean that a PT in recruit gear is going to beat say an operative in BM gear when the BM Stats are higher in all categories ? When is PVP going to come down to the skill of the players ? WE ALL HAVE THE SAME GEAR RATINGS AT DIFFERENT TIERS. Your gonna get rolled if your up against a team that knows its role and does it as a team.. I dont actually understand how taking expertise out is going to help.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_Chrome Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I agree! At level 50 pvp there is absolutely no skill involved! It is Gear vs Gear. Bioware should add a buff (like the level 49 buff) for level 50 that makes all stats the same for all players. This way there wont be - he has 100 Willpower more than me... he has 100 expertise more than me... it will be purely skill based as it should be. PVP level 10-49: fun PVP level 50: frustrating i agree with you about expertise, although as a good pvper i adjust to the rules of the system available and maximize my performance within those rules...i disagree with you about 10 -49 pvp thought...it is not at all fun and very frustrating where as 50 pvp and especially rated pvp. it feels it is real competition where more peopole understand mechanics and such and the only frustrating thing about 50 pvp is people not gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Let's say you somehow designed a game where PvP emphasizes accuracy (maybe everyone has 90% innate evade in PvP, including against friendly heals that requires accuracy to overcome) and PvE game emphasizes surge by making surge 5 times more powerful. By extension of the gearing concept you'd expect accuracy gear only come from PvP and surge gear from PvE. You implement a system like that and you're going to have the PvE guys post "why the heck does my heal for 15K miss on myself in PvP???' and the PvP guys will post "My 190% accuracy is useless in PvE and every mob has a mechanism that requires a crit of 15K to affect it which I can never hit in PvP gear). Okay this is fairly contrived but it's definitely possible to design a game so that this is the natural outcome. Then what? It's exactly the same argument about Expertise except Expertise is replaced by a different noun. Artificial or not, if you make PvP and PvE gear then there's going to be the guys who don't want to grind out a second set of gear when they already have a set of gear. Whatever you choose to call the stat that distinguishes these two set of gears is irrelevent as long as it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PowerReaper Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) This thread is still going on? lmao. Just get your Battlemaster, it takes less then 3 days if you grind it out . . . maybe not even. Edited July 27, 2012 by PowerReaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Whatever you choose to call the stat that distinguishes these two set of gears is irrelevent as long as it exists. Just to clarify some of your points, if I may. Expertise has very little to do with why PVP is in its current state. Allowing ANY gear into PVP is the real source of angst, and class balance is a close second. On the pecking order, its a distant third, and almost fourth since the grind is on the heels or ahead on some scorecards. IMO, the simplest solution is to strip all stats to zero (so base attack rating is the only thing you bring to the table) and set/give EXP @ entry level to make TTK a certain level (say 50%/30%/20%) with incremental increases the more you play. Each class/spec would get its own "custom EXP" portions to try to keep everyone in line (within 5%). Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What you've described is literally the system they have right now. Not at all. See response above. Expertise is an additional layer in the game. As such, it introduces an entire layer of its own problems and issues when implemented. I like how you call people who PvE carebears, nice touch there buddy, hate this kind of attitude in "serious" or "hardcore" PvPers looking down on anything that's not PvP. Not saying anything bad about PvP in general (I like it and play it) but I don't see why you need to insult those who like to do PvE content. Wasn't intending to insult anyone. PvErs are what they are. Guess I could have just called them "PvErs" instead of carebears. Whatever. I dont actually understand how taking expertise out is going to help.. Because it removes the barrier of entry. Artificial or not, if you make PvP and PvE gear then there's going to be the guys who don't want to grind out a second set of gear when they already have a set of gear. Whatever you choose to call the stat that distinguishes these two set of gears is irrelevent as long as it exists. Stats are only one angle to approach the difference. Devs could also emphasize different skills and ACs. There certainly are ACs and skills that absolutely are never used in PvP for the most part and vice versa. Anyway, it's just a suggestion. Other games already do this by the way, like LOTRO, and it works pretty well. Even this game already does it partially with different sets of gear designated for different ACs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Stats are only one angle to approach the difference. Devs could also emphasize different skills and ACs. There certainly are ACs and skills that absolutely are never used in PvP for the most part and vice versa. Anyway, it's just a suggestion. Other games already do this by the way, like LOTRO, and it works pretty well. Even this game already does it partially with different sets of gear designated for different ACs. Well the PvP/PvE set bonuses are pretty different and they're presumably trying to emphasize different skil sets, but then this just creates the exact same problem. For example the 4 piece bonus for BH is +15% to Railshot. It'd be pretty much unthinkable to play without that for Pyro PT, so having a 4 piece set is a must for them. Therefore you can make the exact same argument of 'why do I have to grind this gear' if you came from a PvE background, since your PvE set bonus is no way competitive in PvP so you must have it. If you've multiple sets of gear then it has to take some nontrivial amount of time to get more than one set of gear (otherwise just make the first set capable of doing everything and you'll be done). And people will always complain about having to grind twice, which isn't necessarily unjustified either. I actually don't mind if you just have one set gear fits all world, but that seems absolutely impossible looking at MMORPG history. If there must be two set of gear, I think Expertise is about as good as it can be. A better solution would be to have one set of gear, but that doesn't appear to be an option we can choose. Edited July 27, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 If there must be two set of gear, I think Expertise is about as good as it can be. A better solution would be to have one set of gear, but that doesn't appear to be an option we can choose. This is actually a good point and something that has occurred to me as well. There doesn't even have to be two sets of gear anymore or even pieces of gear. At this stage, with gear being as flexible as it is now, BW could just introduce specific mods/enhancements for PvE or PvP endgame similar to what gearing up was like 1-49. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 This is actually a good point and something that has occurred to me as well. There doesn't even have to be two sets of gear anymore or even pieces of gear. At this stage, with gear being as flexible as it is now, BW could just introduce specific mods/enhancements for PvE or PvP endgame similar to what gearing up was like 1-49. Again, specific mods/enhancments for PVE and PVP are EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE NOW. You say that gear is an artificial barrier to entry but fact is that with BM gear being rakata level outside the stats on the armorings and barrels/hilts (which emphasizes the PVP stat called Expertise), that even if they stripped the PVP stats from the gear right now and just made the stats completely equitable with Rakata there'd be a huge gear disparity between fresh 50s and those that have spent the time to grind out BM (which doesn't take long), with the addendum that now players don't have to grind out HM EV/KP and SM EC for the gear needed to go into HM EC (though arguably the set bonuses in PVE gear are better for certain classes). The barrier to entry is there period the second you have different tiers of gear with upper tiers being sufficiently better than the lowest tiers. If you want a game where gear doesn't come up then this isn't the genre you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikeru Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 This is actually a good point and something that has occurred to me as well. There doesn't even have to be two sets of gear anymore or even pieces of gear. At this stage, with gear being as flexible as it is now, BW could just introduce specific mods/enhancements for PvE or PvP endgame similar to what gearing up was like 1-49. I would suggest Heroes of Newerth or Defense of the Ancients 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Again, specific mods/enhancments for PVE and PVP are EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE NOW. +Expertise. Expertise is the issue. You say that gear is an artificial barrier to entry No. I did not say that. Expertise creates an artificial barrier of entry in PvP. Not gear. That fact actually can't be disputed. It's intended to do so by design. If you want a game where gear doesn't come up then this isn't the genre you're looking for. At no time have I ever stated that gear is the problem or that there should be no gear grind. In fact, what I have suggested is essentially an alternative gear grind. lol I would say more to you at this point, but then I'd just be trollin'. You have sort of misunderstood everything. lol I would suggest Heroes of Newerth or Defense of the Ancients 2. Why? I like this game. I would simply prefer for it to be more about skill than about gear. By the way, changing the setup would not be for myself, per se, because my two mains are pretty well geared. One is full WH +Augments, the other is full BM +Augments w/ partial WH. So any change would not impact me much. I've already done the grind on both of my mains. The point is to get more peeps PvPing in SWTOR and keep them here. The current state of Expertise and its associated gear grind just turns people off and doesn't make for enough good fights. That's why Expertise is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 If they get rid of Expertise overnight and just make War Hero exactly equal to Campaign gear, people would still complain about how now they're totally owned by a guy wearing full Campaign (or WH, no difference between the two) and still have grind one of two ways to have a shot. As long as there is a 'best' gear that you don't have, you obviously have to grind it out to get it. This is true even if there is only one set of gear because there are always going to be guys who don't have that 1 set of gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 +Expertise. Expertise is the issue. That's what makes it PVP specific. The mods/enhancements are all either exactly the same stats as their rakata/BH counterparts or minus 1 to each stat, and then they have expertise to make them PVP specific. The expertise also guarantees they aren't as useful in PVE (though really it's the armorings and hilts/barrels that make the big difference). No. I did not say that. Expertise creates an artificial barrier of entry in PvP. Not gear. That fact actually can't be disputed. It's intended to do so by design. It provides no more of a barrier to entry than the actual stats disparity between recruit and battle master, and in the meantime it keeps people from coming in with full augmented campaign gear (or Black Hole modded Rakata) and rolling over fresh 50s. The barrier to entry is still there for fresh 50s. It's just also there for PVE players who have never PVPd before. At no time have I ever stated that gear is the problem or that there should be no gear grind. In fact, what I have suggested is essentially an alternative gear grind. lol And my point is that the alternative gear grind is not significantly different from the current gear grind we have right now. You have sort of misunderstood everything Then that's your fault for not making how your proposed system would be any different in any real way other than what we'd call the stat that differentiates the PVP mods and enhancements from the PVE enhancements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scritchy Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 If you want a game where gear doesn't come up then this isn't the genre you're looking for. You mean this isn't the game for you. Some games in this genre have done it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 You mean this isn't the game for you. Some games in this genre have done it right. Virtually any MMORPG that is somewhat successful have a system of gear grind for two set of gear. I'm not saying grinding two set of gear is necessarily the best but like I said this part isn't up to debate so far as the players are concerned. Nobody is willing to try anything different from the '1 set of gear for PvP and 1 set of gear for PvE', and if you got two set of gear it has to take nontrivial amount of effort to get both sets (or they might as well just have one if it's trivial to get both, just have one set that does everything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scritchy Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Virtually any MMORPG that is somewhat successful have a system of gear grind for two set of gear. I'm not saying grinding two set of gear is necessarily the best but like I said this part isn't up to debate so far as the players are concerned. Nobody is willing to try anything different from the '1 set of gear for PvP and 1 set of gear for PvE', and if you got two set of gear it has to take nontrivial amount of effort to get both sets (or they might as well just have one if it's trivial to get both, just have one set that does everything). Define successful, because I can only think of three games that have two sets of gear grinds and one is definitely not successful and another is bleeding subs like a hemophiliac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Define successful, because I can only think of three games that have two sets of gear grinds and one is definitely not successful and another is bleeding subs like a hemophiliac. And the games that don't have such thing would be the ones you've to look up on Massively to just know that they exist. Bleeding subs is better than a game that never had the subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scritchy Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) And the games that don't have such thing would be the ones you've to look up on Massively to just know that they exist. Bleeding subs is better than a game that never had the subs. DAOC, UO, EQ, EQ2, SWG, Aion are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. You can certainly call some of those successful. The ones with 2 sets of gear grind? WAR, SWTOR, WOW. You can call one successful. Edited July 28, 2012 by Scritchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikeru Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 DAOC, UO, EQ, EQ2, SWG, Aion are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. You can certainly call some of those successful. The ones with 2 sets of gear grind? WAR, SWTOR, WOW. You can call one successful. Define success o.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scritchy Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Define success o.O Not losing more than half your playerbase in 3 months (hi WAR!)? Not contracting to a handful of servers 7 months after release? Both of those are pretty good definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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