why is Quinn so fail?

[Veeius]

I have an assassin tank, and a jugg tank. The assassin tank has NO trouble soloing h2's, she's in orange gear with level 50 purple inserts (that she got by doing old enemies and freeing the fallen), my jugg is in 3 rakata/2 columi.

 

My assassin never gets in trouble. My jugg... 20 seconds into the fight I can tell you, almost to the second, when he's going to die.

 

I use retaliation whenever it's up, I use scream on cd (both spec'd). I've tried using tank gear, dps gear, and even pvp gear (for the heal) on intercede). I've tried chilling scream kiting, I've tried focusing them down, intimidating roar.

 

Why is my crappily geared assassin - that I don't use correctly (whut u mean force lighting heals?) more durable in the same fights than my decently geared warrior?

 

The only conclusion I can draw is that for some reason Talios is a better healer than Quinn, which is odd, but I seem to see a LOT more green numbers on talios than quinn. Quinn heals for bigger numbers (which makes sense, because he's in full tionese instead of Talios' "lol I've been a 50 for 10 minutes" gear, but Quinn seems to waste a lot more time adding his 8 dps.

 

Also - my undergeared sin seems to do A LOT more damage, which may have something to do with the problem.

 

If it's something I'm doing wrong - which is entirely possible, can anyone think of something obvious that would allow Quinn to keep me alive when soloing a couple elites?

[Canis_Anubis]

Dark Charge >>> Sonic Barrier. That is all.

[Hizoka]

different classes are different

[Shinaa]

I don't think you're doing something wrong or could do something diffrent.

The companions shouldn't be the issue either, because as far as I have seen it on my toons and read from other souces, the healing companions are pretty much the same, just diffrent names and animations for their spells.

It's just the difference between the two classes, Assassins/Shadows do have more damage output for one, there was so much discussion about it on PTS forum, Bioware just didn't care.

Also the selfhealing of Assassins/Shadows is alot more useful when soloing/questing, because those mobs do not hit quite as hard as an operation boss. The numbers were tweaked for them, so that their healing can make up the difference in lower armor/mitigation, but that also means, the weaker your target gets, the stronger your selfheals become, to the point where you might even heal enough to survive anything, where a juggernaut/guardian would die.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Shinaa

[Metajedi]

1,50 no problem at all

[RendValor]

It's not the companion that's "so fail"

[Veeius]

different classes are different

 

That's an excuse for me not to have pretty lighting coming out of my fingertips. It's not an excuse to allow one ac to easily do h2's and the other ac's to utterly fail at it.

[Veeius]

It's not the companion that's "so fail"

That's very helpful, ethug. Why don't you go cruise highschools and look cool because you have a car.

[Craxim]

I have an assassin tank, and a jugg tank. The assassin tank has NO trouble soloing h2's, she's in orange gear with level 50 purple inserts (that she got by doing old enemies and freeing the fallen), my jugg is in 3 rakata/2 columi.

 

My assassin never gets in trouble. My jugg... 20 seconds into the fight I can tell you, almost to the second, when he's going to die.

 

I use retaliation whenever it's up, I use scream on cd (both spec'd). I've tried using tank gear, dps gear, and even pvp gear (for the heal) on intercede). I've tried chilling scream kiting, I've tried focusing them down, intimidating roar.

 

Why is my crappily geared assassin - that I don't use correctly (whut u mean force lighting heals?) more durable in the same fights than my decently geared warrior?

 

The only conclusion I can draw is that for some reason Talios is a better healer than Quinn, which is odd, but I seem to see a LOT more green numbers on talios than quinn. Quinn heals for bigger numbers (which makes sense, because he's in full tionese instead of Talios' "lol I've been a 50 for 10 minutes" gear, but Quinn seems to waste a lot more time adding his 8 dps.

 

Also - my undergeared sin seems to do A LOT more damage, which may have something to do with the problem.

 

If it's something I'm doing wrong - which is entirely possible, can anyone think of something obvious that would allow Quinn to keep me alive when soloing a couple elites?

 

It's not Quinn, it's the Juggernaut class. Right now they lack in almost every aspect. Utility, mitigation, damage, etc. Both Sins and PTs bring something much more substantial to any group or part of the game, and Juggernauts bring nothing but standard generic melee tank. I love the Juggernaut class, it's a very complex class to play and very fun, but it's so bad that I've decided to level a Sin tank and play on it instead until the Juggernaut gets brought in line with where it needs to be. My only advice to your situation is to try tank gear with a hybrid tank spec, the damage mitigation from Force Charge plus the better DPS might help your personal situation.

[darthtrunkmonkey]

different classes are different

 

but i like comparing apples to oranges

[Veeius]

but i like comparing apples to oranges

 

 

No, again, There's apples and oranges, then there's 1983 chevy chevette, and 2012 lamborghini - and while the metric for success being "exceed 130 miles per hour or die."

 

I'm ok with no flashy lightning from my fingertips. I'm not okay with 1 tank getting stealth, a cc, heals, and does more damage, with my ac getting... well, none of that. "different classes are different" should equate to "ok, well, sins get stealth, pt's get a cc, juggs get heals" Not "sins get stealth, cc, heals, and do the most damage, and juggs and pts... uh, well, they get to jump 20 feet."

[Griad]

I have both an assassin tank specced with full blackhole gear and a jugger in vengece build with almost full blackhole gear aswell, i would never make it through a H2 in the black hole on my jugger.

 

Here is the thing that i think is the main issue, 1 min stuns juggers dont have any and sith assassin have mind trap which basicly makes u able to fight 1 less elite and with the carbon stream from healer comp thats basicly 2 mobs out of the picture while i kill the other 2 elites fast and much faster on assassin mainly because my AOE attack wither hits soo hard in dps gear and debuffs the mobs and this is here where the self heal also comes handy and force shroud + lower CD on deflection.

 

I just think that assassin is just as BW described them a lone wolf which is why they are more handy for soloing.

 

Now on the other hand their deception dps build is sad compared to vengence spec and rather useless compared to most other counter parts on other classes.

[Dhariq]

It all boils down to game designers who believes that mitigation in percent can be balanced with a almost set self heal for Assassins and that it will work across the board. They are just plain clueless since this is mathematically impossible. In any low incomming damage situation the Assassin will rule and in a high damage he will not because the set number will only be balanced at a set number of incomming damage.

1.3 tuned this set number down, but it is still alot more than a h2 dish out but less than a 16 man hm kephess (the persons doing this were the one shouting "how can you nerf the weakest tank"). So will it ever work across the board? Of cause not as it is mathmatically impossible. Designera failed basic math.

So be happy that you have a good endgame tank class and let the Sin rule when soloing his h2's.

[DiLune]

I have had issues with Quinn as well. His attacks are longer ranged than his heals. So you can out leap his range so he is basically spending his time DPSing. I also turned off his carbonizing stream because it has an ungodly long channel.

 

Make him passive so he closes in, (I often start the fight with him on passive so he runs in while I am leaping) then attack again and he'll at least be in healing range for you.

[ManiacalShen]

I'm glad this isn't just me. My first character was a Mercenary, and I did H2s on her all the time (namely outdoor ones), with Mako at her side. Imagine my surprise when I started leveling an Immortal Jugg and just failed spectacularly at H2s. I didn't even attempt it again after the first several failures. The Jugg's lack of 1-min CC hurts, even if the Jugg isn't squishy like the Merc.

 

Could be different at 50, of course, but I haven't tried it out.

[MysticTrunks]

Because Quin is this guy.

 

[Elyx]

Now...on the general note of the Jugg class being able to solo "solo" content....they do fine. comparing them as the level can be tough, as the two classes mature differently.

juggs grow into their skills much later then assassins do (mid 30's). I've played both. At end game, both are competitive DPS (Juggs are actually one of the Top DPS, given circumstances and gearing). So as a class, they can do what needs to be done.

 

Now, in regards to comparing them to other classes....Bio sold them a bit short. Problem is....Bio doesn't balance things based on whether you can solo content thats made for 2+ peeps or not. they consider solo content only. So if you look at it a different way...juggs are the truely balanced ones, and assassins are OP.

 

...except, the playing field is allot more even once you get into group content (where those CC's and self-heals matter less). Not sure If I'm going to be able to convince everyone of this, but the Jugg actually does just fine. I've leveled 2 of them to 50, and have a few more scattered across multiple servers, in addition to my Assassin and Shadow (and PT....Op...Merc...i got allot of toons.). I find my jugg no more difficult to level and play then my other classes....more fun actually. The challenge comes into play when you try to challenge yourself (like with h2+ content). the jugg simple isn't set up to do that. Which i don't like honestly...it makes the jugg look underpowered in comparison. not sure how they can ultimately balance that out. give is a simple CC perhaps? like the Assassin (cannot cast when in combat, ranged with cast timer...whatever works).

 

But I think at that point every Assassin in the game would start whining about how OP we are, since our defensive CD's are so much better then theirs (according to all the gripers in the Assassin forums), and we have better armor (cause we KNOW how awesome that is....yeah....). and we get our own bubble! cause its so amazing... and then we get a CC now? Bio must love us, cause they hate assassins....

 

Whatever. point is, juggs are behind from a perspective of higher performance in solo situations...but only when doing challenging content. leveling solo to 50 isn't a race, and honestly after leveling 2 juggs I don't feel that they are worse then any other class in solo work. good example is the champion I killed on quesh (ranged guy, can't remember his name). had quinn in tow, solo'ed him, finished with around 80% health left. and he was my level (one above at the time actually). so for solo work, even against tough mobs, the Jugg can do fine.

 

you certainly need to know the class though...whereas on my merc and Assassin/Shadow i can pretty much spam whatever and survive. The problem with heroic situations, is they're really set up to require some form of CC...or some form of extra healing (beyond companions)....I think the idea was to make multiple classes desired. but then they went and gave every other class but the jugg the ability to control those extra mobs. and offheal themselves. Heck, even Mauraders (or sentinels) have a CC and healing abilities that surpass the Juggs. So for me its a mixed bag. i have no issues with my jugg...but then I'll turn around and find that my assassin can do 2 man content my jugg can't.

 

irritating, but not game breaking. If Jugg's were ranking the lowest on DPS results (they're not), or they were regarded as the worst tanks (overall most people dont think so), then id be worried.

[coldserpent]

I'm glad this isn't just me. My first character was a Mercenary, and I did H2s on her all the time (namely outdoor ones), with Mako at her side. Imagine my surprise when I started leveling an Immortal Jugg and just failed spectacularly at H2s. I didn't even attempt it again after the first several failures. The Jugg's lack of 1-min CC hurts, even if the Jugg isn't squishy like the Merc.

 

Could be different at 50, of course, but I haven't tried it out.

 

The biggest reason is that leveling solely as Immortal and trying to do Heroic 2+s or whatever. Dealing damage is like watching paint dry. If you went Vengeance or Rage, sure, you lose out on some survivability, but you can actually deal damage, thus not having Quinn sit there all day. Treat each fight as though it were a dps race, and it would be more fun.

 

It wasn't bad to level as Immortal spec before patch 1.3, back when you had a harder hitting Backhand, more damage while in Soresu Stance(from Single Saber Mastery), and Crushing Blow wasn't a turd of an ability like it is now).

[Jayshames]

Yeah assassin tanks are better at tanking than jugg that is all.

[Icebergy]

Its not Quinn. Shadow/Assassin tanks are just that much stronger than Jugg/Guards.

[coldserpent]

I'm glad this isn't just me. My first character was a Mercenary, and I did H2s on her all the time (namely outdoor ones), with Mako at her side. Imagine my surprise when I started leveling an Immortal Jugg and just failed spectacularly at H2s. I didn't even attempt it again after the first several failures. The Jugg's lack of 1-min CC hurts, even if the Jugg isn't squishy like the Merc.

 

Could be different at 50, of course, but I haven't tried it out.

 

The biggest reason is that leveling solely as Immortal and trying to do Heroic 2+s or whatever. Dealing damage is like watching paint dry. If you went Vengeance or Rage, sure, you lose out on some survivability, but you can actually deal damage, thus not having Quinn sit there all day. Treat each fight as though it were a dps race, and it would be more fun.

 

It wasn't bad to level as Immortal spec before patch 1.3, back when you had a harder hitting Backhand, more damage while in Soresu Stance(from Single Saber Mastery), and Crushing Blow wasn't a turd of an ability like it is now).

[Icebergy]

irritating, but not game breaking. If Jugg's were ranking the lowest on DPS results (they're not), or they were regarded as the worst tanks (overall most people dont think so), then id be worried.

 

Err...they are. If you ask anyone except the people that play assassin/shadow tanks, they will all tell you that assassin/shadows are the best, followed closely by powertech/vanguards, with jugg/guards quite a bit behind.

[DiLune]

Err...they are. If you ask anyone except the people that play assassin/shadow tanks, they will all tell you that assassin/shadows are the best, followed closely by powertech/vanguards, with jugg/guards quite a bit behind.

 

The nerf bat hit them so hard they are barely #1 anymore. They're still feeling the sting.

[Elyx]

Err...they are. If you ask anyone except the people that play assassin/shadow tanks, they will all tell you that assassin/shadows are the best, followed closely by powertech/vanguards, with jugg/guards quite a bit behind.

 

Err...they are what? worst DPS? no, they're not the worst DPS.

 

The worst tanks?

I'll bet that we can find people on the forums that will disagree. and "best" is a measure of what? can jugg's not do the current content as tanks? am I missing something? My guild seems to have no issues bringing a jugg tank along for HM EC. I could care less about NM content...but there are juggs that are doing that as well.

 

And it seems like the people that play assassins think that juggs are better...and juggs think assassins are better. problem is, there are people on both side of the fence. I'm not saying that Jugg's are perfect...the disparity between them and other classes atm irritates me as well. But I simply disagree with those who are extreme and say jugg's are broke. were not. we can do the same content tanking that the others can. Not as easy, I'll admit...but that's an ongoing fight with Bio.

[ManiacalShen]

The biggest reason is that leveling solely as Immortal and trying to do Heroic 2+s or whatever. Dealing damage is like watching paint dry. If you went Vengeance or Rage, sure, you lose out on some survivability, but you can actually deal damage, thus not having Quinn sit there all day. Treat each fight as though it were a dps race, and it would be more fun.

 

It wasn't bad to level as Immortal spec before patch 1.3, back when you had a harder hitting Backhand, more damage while in Soresu Stance(from Single Saber Mastery), and Crushing Blow wasn't a turd of an ability like it is now).

 

Ha, well, too late now. XD I'm level 50 and am working on my gear so I can do Ops. Sure would have been nice to have dual spec for the reasons you mentioned, but my consolation is how gloriously quick it is for me to get a Groupfinder Queue to pop. Tanks are the rate-limiting step on my server.