PloGreen Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What class are you and how were you geared at the time? On another note, isnt it somewhat peculiar that the more melee'ish AC out of sorcs and shadows has the higher force lightning damage output, significally higher even? That's something I¨ll never understand. That annoys the hell out of me to to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What class are you and how were you geared at the time? On another note, isnt it somewhat peculiar that the more melee'ish AC out of sorcs and shadows has the higher force lightning damage output, significally higher even? That's something I¨ll never understand. WH Scoundrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roiz Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I think sorc/sage is not underpowered in PvP, it is just not playable. All attacks on the move restricted due to bad force management. Force in balance doesn't have proper target selection. All sages can do is to root them selves for long casting/ channeling abilities and wait until PT or mara came to kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 The best strategy for fighting a Mara is to run away lol. If that isn't an option, don't use DoTs since you will need your Mezz to shut down the Mara when he pops UR. Save your knockback for Ravage. Use Force Slow every time it is off CD. Your Stun should be used to burn off his Cloak of Pain. Watch his Resolve bar like a hawk. If you fill it you are dead. Leap has a minimum range, so it is possible to kite them within that distance and prevent them from using it. There is also a shorter ranged jump (rage spec) that requires rage though, so they may use that. Saber throw and Dispatch both have max ranges, but no min. If you are using your CC for his defensives and ravage- what do you have for when he leaps to you, chain roots you and/or simply hugs you while whittling away your health? Also, annihilation can have a no range leap while carnage has a root on the throw meaning there is virtually no deadzone- and kiting within 5-9m (distance that a mara can't attack or leap when completely unspecced) is impossible unless the mara was dropped on his head multiple times. You need to rely on the marauder both being terrible (sorry, but you have to be extremely bad to be kited within a 4m range by a class that relies 90% on channels/cast spells to do damage) and on being rage specced. At the same time, a lightning sorc relies on affliction for double speed FL, and is a turret spec (very immobile) while a madness sorc relies heavily on dots, very heavily- yet you're saying not to dot a mara so you can use WW on undying yet instant WW is in a spec that relies almost entirely on dots. How do you intend to get a mara to near death exactly without using dots? Shock doesn't hit all that hard, FL keeps you in place which against a mara means you're dead, and death field has a very long CD- you'd have to spend pretty much a minute using shock, DF and force slow to get a mara even close to dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 If you are using your CC for his defensives and ravage- what do you have for when he leaps to you, chain roots you and/or simply hugs you while whittling away your health? Also, annihilation can have a no range leap while carnage has a root on the throw meaning there is virtually no deadzone- and kiting within 5-9m (distance that a mara can't attack or leap when completely unspecced) is impossible unless the mara was dropped on his head multiple times. You need to rely on the marauder both being terrible (sorry, but you have to be extremely bad to be kited within a 4m range by a class that relies 90% on channels/cast spells to do damage) and on being rage specced. At the same time, a lightning sorc relies on affliction for double speed FL, and is a turret spec (very immobile) while a madness sorc relies heavily on dots, very heavily- yet you're saying not to dot a mara so you can use WW on undying yet instant WW is in a spec that relies almost entirely on dots. How do you intend to get a mara to near death exactly without using dots? Shock doesn't hit all that hard, FL keeps you in place which against a mara means you're dead, and death field has a very long CD- you'd have to spend pretty much a minute using shock, DF and force slow to get a mara even close to dead. Rage spec has a second leap that has no min range. You need to rely on them being Carnage for min range kiting, which I did not recomment, I merely pointed it out that it could be done in theory. No one plays lol lightning spec in PvP for the very reason that they are immobile and squishy leading to guaranteed death in 1v1 match ups. The object of fighting a Marauder is not to kill him, it is to stay alive long enough for him to either give up and switch targets or for help to arrive. If you want to kill a Marauder you need to play at an elite skill level and hope he is an undergeared noob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PloGreen Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 The object of fighting a Marauder is not to kill him, it is to stay alive long enough for him to either give up and switch targets or for help to arrive. If you want to kill a Marauder you need to play at an elite skill level and hope he is an undergeared noob. I actually agree with this, since mainly I engage maras in defensive mode. Maras are good at killing sages, so you have to do everything right to frustrate a mara ( get em to blow their cooldowns etc, keep distance try not to max resolve, keep him snared), cc and rely on team-mates. Not often I kill one that is competent without assistance. I honestly believe they are a hard counter to sage, but I do not think they are god mode because their stronger defensive cooldowns can be countered with stuns. You have to try and look at it from the point of view of style of play - a mara is in the thick of it most of the time, so therefore they will get beat on alot, they need defensive cooldowns to do the job they were designed to do. Comparing the two toolsets - we have tools to kite maras but not to do it effectively against certain specs, and like the above poster says - its more a case of buying time for assistance or kicking the crap out of a complete muppet who does not understand maras. Also, it helps if you have 17 second shield set bonus from heals set, and being hybrid tele/lbalance deffo helps against melee trains. We are good against healers though - lots of interupts, pressure and cc is a bad news for healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I actually agree with this, since mainly I engage maras in defensive mode. Maras are good at killing sages, so you have to do everything right to frustrate a mara ( get em to blow their cooldowns etc, keep distance try not to max resolve, keep him snared), cc and rely on team-mates. Not often I kill one that is competent without assistance. I honestly believe they are a hard counter to sage, but I do not think they are god mode because their stronger defensive cooldowns can be countered with stuns. You have to try and look at it from the point of view of style of play - a mara is in the thick of it most of the time, so therefore they will get beat on alot, they need defensive cooldowns to do the job they were designed to do. Comparing the two toolsets - we have tools to kite maras but not to do it effectively against certain specs, and like the above poster says - its more a case of buying time for assistance or kicking the crap out of a complete muppet who does not understand maras. Also, it helps if you have 17 second shield set bonus from heals set, and being hybrid tele/lbalance deffo helps against melee trains. We are good against healers though - lots of interupts, pressure and cc is a bad news for healers. Marauders are only "god mode" when people use their Resolve Effects to "kite" them. If you whitebar a Marauder then he gets to use his best abilities with no repercussions. That is why I recommend saving your CC for the big ugly effects (UR, Cloak, Ravage). If you use your CC on these effects, you neuter the Marauder's effectiveness and can proceed to stalemate him long enough for help (or his attention to wane). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PloGreen Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Marauders are only "god mode" when people use their Resolve Effects to "kite" them. If you whitebar a Marauder then he gets to use his best abilities with no repercussions. That is why I recommend saving your CC for the big ugly effects (UR, Cloak, Ravage). If you use your CC on these effects, you neuter the Marauder's effectiveness and can proceed to stalemate him long enough for help (or his attention to wane). Yup. Its very easy to white bar a mara. You cant really kite them as such, if you use either of your decent stuns to kite a mara his resolve bar is three quarters full. Sever force helps but im not speccing full balance because lack of bubble mezz stun and major force depletion issues. Basically you are describing what I do anyway, more or less. Saving the cc for ur, cloak etc. Iam geared enough and experienced enough not to waste them or fill his resolve. Must be painful for sages that are not fully geared though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 The object of fighting a Marauder is not to kill him, it is to stay alive long enough for him to either give up and switch targets or for help to arrive. If you want to kill a Marauder you need to play at an elite skill level and hope he is an undergeared noob. That's mostly true. Any sorc of any spec isn't beating carnage, for instance, unless the carnage mara's a fool or "an undergeared noob". But if you string him along for long enough to frustrate him into popping predation or long enough that he gets peeled by a teammate, chances are he stops focusing you and looks for softer targets on the next life. I do want to point out that madness CAN beat annihilation regularly, so long as you don't make any mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Dallas Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I actually agree with this, since mainly I engage maras in defensive mode. Maras are good at killing sages, so you have to do everything right to frustrate a mara ( get em to blow their cooldowns etc, keep distance try not to max resolve, keep him snared), cc and rely on team-mates. Not often I kill one that is competent without assistance. I honestly believe they are a hard counter to sage, but I do not think they are god mode because their stronger defensive cooldowns can be countered with stuns. You have to try and look at it from the point of view of style of play - a mara is in the thick of it most of the time, so therefore they will get beat on alot, they need defensive cooldowns to do the job they were designed to do. Comparing the two toolsets - we have tools to kite maras but not to do it effectively against certain specs, and like the above poster says - its more a case of buying time for assistance or kicking the crap out of a complete muppet who does not understand maras. Also, it helps if you have 17 second shield set bonus from heals set, and being hybrid tele/lbalance deffo helps against melee trains. We are good against healers though - lots of interupts, pressure and cc is a bad news for healers. PVPing with my op healer I flipping HATE getting harrassed by balance sages (the hybrids, thankfully, don't hit single targets hard enough to be a nuisance). Evasion doesn't help, can't stealth escape due to uncleansable dots and the 2 second root on a 9 second cooldown (along with sprint) makes it nearly impossible to range or line of sight them. They can't really finish the job, but it's probably the most irritating class to have on you. A pyro will run out of heat and defang themselves eventually, and all warrior specs (mara and jugg) can be healed through, cleansed (if annihilation), then stealth escaped to a safer area. There's just no end of the tunnel with the madness/balance types unless you have outside assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Sorc (wall if text warning) From my own experience I tend to find myself running away more than anything. I love being a caster (obvious why I made a sorc) casters since the dawn of dawn have been hard hitters with low health and armor we all know this as a Glass Cannon. Was that design intent for the Sorc? Sometimes I wonder what our design really is. If we were designed to well... die then I'd say Bioware did a pretty good job. I've had my fair share of MMO experiences and while I'm not an elite on everything I do I like to think with the amount of time I put into my class, gearing it and learning my spec and learning other classes (in pvp you can't survive as a caster unless you know the other classes dmg/defense CD's and such duuuuh) I'm pretty good at what I do. In SWTOR what I do is DoT run Dot run Force Lightning. That's it. I hear the argument for Rock Paper whatever I'm sorry have you played an MMO? This isn't how it works. Melee should beat a caster/ranged if they get close caster/ranged should beat a melee at ranged. In between is where player skill comes into play. At this point it takes no player skill to kill a sorc and if you say it does your either the PVP happy class or a very very elite sorc and I must say congrats on that. Bottom Line- We should be designed to die in a few hits but have some dmg mitigation/escape cds AND put out massive damage. So far we are just designed to die. This is an outstanding post portraying the current situation flawlessly. The bold underlined part below is particularly true. This isn't how it works. Melee should beat a caster/ranged if they get close caster/ranged should beat a melee at ranged. In between is where player skill comes into play. At this point it takes no player skill to kill a sorc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil_Santa Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 That's mostly true. Any sorc of any spec isn't beating carnage, for instance, unless the carnage mara's a fool or "an undergeared noob". But if you string him along for long enough to frustrate him into popping predation or long enough that he gets peeled by a teammate, chances are he stops focusing you and looks for softer targets on the next life. I do want to point out that madness CAN beat annihilation regularly, so long as you don't make any mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGLC-707eI The marauder in the 3rd clip is a carnage marauder on one of the top PVP teams on The Bastion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 We're a glass canon without the glass, our CC is single target, our damage makes us immobile yet we have no defensives and must stay mobile all the time, our mez is instant in a tree where all our damage is dots and thus we cannot use it on someone we're in combat with, we have no natural roots. But, frankly- that we do the worst burst in the game as the easiest target to burst down is simply atrocious and no intelligent dev could have possibly missed that- so the only conclusion is that BW's entire pvp team is completely out of the loop. Doesn't really matter though- almost every sorc has left the game by now, GW2 and the rest are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warultima Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PGLC-707eI The marauder in the 3rd clip is a carnage marauder on one of the top PVP teams on The Bastion. You serious think so? He did it wrong. I am afraid if that marauder is one of the tops in the Bastion... Not saying hes not good, but at very least lol he did it so wrong there. Other than that nice video, too much pocket heal in the end by multiple healer burst healing on you most of the time. Edited July 27, 2012 by warultima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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