Sage/Sorc do you think you are underpowered?

[xoaxie]

Mara/sents are strongly defending how they are perfectly balanced, are they overpowered? Or is it a case of underpowered sages/sorce? Let us hear your opinions.

[Darth_Philar]

Mara/sents are strongly defending how they are perfectly balanced, are they overpowered? Or is it a case of underpowered sages/sorce? Let us hear your opinions.

 

As one of both, I'd say a little of both.

 

To elaborate: Marauder DCDs are slightly too powerful and one of them should be nerfed. Sorcerers have no DCDs and need at least one.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[xoaxie]

As one of both, I'd say a little of both.

 

To elaborate: Marauder DCDs are slightly too powerful and one of them should be nerfed. Sorcerers have no DCDs and need at least one.

 

Just curious, since you play both, have you been able to create, a good defensive stratigy against maras/sents? Playing my sorce, I can solo most, but the good maras/sents just punish me.

[xoaxie]

As it is, if I see them back up, I run at them, seems they need some distance to throw sword, or leap. Or am I just waisting my chance to flee?

[Darth_Philar]

Just curious, since you play both, have you been able to create, a good defensive stratigy against maras/sents? Playing my sorce, I can solo most, but the good maras/sents just punish me.

 

The best strategy for fighting a Mara is to run away lol.

If that isn't an option, don't use DoTs since you will need your Mezz to shut down the Mara when he pops UR.

Save your knockback for Ravage.

Use Force Slow every time it is off CD.

Your Stun should be used to burn off his Cloak of Pain.

Watch his Resolve bar like a hawk. If you fill it you are dead.

 

Leap has a minimum range, so it is possible to kite them within that distance and prevent them from using it. There is also a shorter ranged jump (rage spec) that requires rage though, so they may use that.

 

Saber throw and Dispatch both have max ranges, but no min.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[madtycoon]

This coming from a healer sage POV

 

The side tree Mara/Sent specs are easier to kite/solo as knockback root spec. The middle tree spec is much harder to tank. Their camo breaks your root and you won't be able to get away from them with all their roots, plus their ravage can get you into execute range easily, where you won't be able to recover from.

 

I don't think sages are underpowered at all. If you factor in peels, they can live pretty well and output almost as much as scoundrels (being cast dependant though) and stop more damage (when factoring in force cleanses). Salvation/Revif spec can output more than scoundrels, if their team can keep them alive, imo.

 

If Pyro/Assault Techs/Vangaurds burst was brought down to earth or counterable (cast time on rail shot or something), then sage/sorcs would even do better.

[Darth_Philar]

This coming from a healer sage POV

 

The side tree Mara/Sent specs are easier to kite/solo as knockback root spec. The middle tree spec is much harder to tank. Their camo breaks your root and you won't be able to get away from them with all their roots, plus their ravage can get you into execute range easily, where you won't be able to recover from.

 

I don't think sages are underpowered at all. If you factor in peels, they can live pretty well and output almost as much as scoundrels (being cast dependant though) and stop more damage (when factoring in force cleanses). Salvation/Revif spec can output more than scoundrels, if their team can keep them alive, imo.

 

If Pyro/Assault Techs/Vangaurds burst was brought down to earth or counterable (cast time on rail shot or something), then sage/sorcs would even do better.

 

Sorc/Sage is underpowered if you consider that no other class needs a peel to DPS. Healing will always require a peel, but to DPS? That's just poor design.

 

Fact is, we are supposed to be casters, but in order to cast one must stand still. Standing still means death 100% of the time if you are being targeted. It's a Catch-22.

[ccoolmint]

Sorc/Sage is underpowered if you consider that no other class needs a peel to DPS. Healing will always require a peel, but to DPS? That's just poor design.

 

Fact is, we are supposed to be casters, but in order to cast one must stand still. Standing still means death 100% of the time if you are being targeted. It's a Catch-22.

 

this, our class is just designed very poorly.

[madtycoon]

Sorc/Sage is underpowered if you consider that no other class needs a peel to DPS. Healing will always require a peel, but to DPS? That's just poor design.

 

Fact is, we are supposed to be casters, but in order to cast one must stand still. Standing still means death 100% of the time if you are being targeted. It's a Catch-22.

 

I was talking healer specs. DPS needs a dispersion type cooldown imo.

[Tragamite]

Mara/sents are strongly defending how they are perfectly balanced, are they overpowered? Or is it a case of underpowered sages/sorce? Let us hear your opinions.

 

No Sorc is not underpowered vs the Mara because the sorc is not the Anti-Mara! People it IS paper, rock, scissors regaurdless of how you want it. If every class could 1v1 every class with an equal chance of damage, survivability and healing then NO ONE WILL WIN!

 

If you want equality against all classes then your asking really for all classes to be the same! They are not! And IMHO this game would be way worse off if they were!

 

As I have played against and with a variety of classes what I have found is something like this

 

Jugg<Sin, Sin<Merc, Merc<Mara, Mara<Sniper, Sniper<Sorc, Sorc<PT, PT<Ops, Ops<Jugg

 

What I mean with this is that a Jugg vs Sin the Sin should win around 75% straight up. And essentially that goes for every class. When played right and to the full potential of a class you CAN kill ANYONE but not EVERYONE! You get lucky against your anti-class and you pull off an upset yet close victory and then get slaughtered by someone else as that class and you are left wonder what happened you should have nuked them so we come on the forums and QQ, Nerf this its OP!

 

Most every class against another class is around 50% 1v1 except where I noted above. However, it is not a straight up 50%. In some cases it is a 60-40 split +/-. Tanks feel like they can jump into a group and kill everything with barely taking any damage cause that is how it worked in PvE, yet in PvE the Tank didn't really do anything except maintain aggro. A healer kept him alive without a scratch, and his DPSers killed all the Mobs or Boss. A Tank with that Tank mentality jumps into PvP and gets nuked by 2 DPSers and thinks WTH? I should have lasted longer dealt more damage or whatever cause they usually can, when they have the team support.

 

This is the case with all classes, a Mara without a healer is just medium armor and any one can focus them down quickly if they have the advantage!

 

People QQ and base their prowess on their supposed 1v1 matchups in WZs on Out in the world. Just cause you got the advantage or went against someone not so good on that class doesn't mean you can kill that class 100% of the time you are matched up with them! In fact no class has that absolute!

 

PvP is a oganized function, without support you have to see yourself as vulnerable to anyone. Matched up with any alternate class with a like minded player on the other end, same gear and base stats and see who wins out of 100+ matches you will find that I'm really close on what I am saying here. However, too often we find ourselves outnumberd, starting on the defensive, against different playing styles and differently geared opponents. Crying OP cause they have the advantage but never claiming YOU need a nerf because you are OP and are winning 90% of your matchup is just lame. When you are on top you love your character but when you get beat it is just because the class is OP is not helping anyone.

 

You've seen the chatter in PvP "Focus Target," "Move here!" "Attack this" because it is team oriented! If it wasn't and the classes were not balanced you would hear "Ok I want The Mara on Left, right and mid cause you are the OP class and will kill everything that is out there!"

 

When you get into a WZ and see that you have 5 Mara and 3 Snipers because they or FotM you can actually expect to get rolled by a good compositioned team with 2 tanks 2 heals and 4 DPS. It Just wont work for you in the long run! So after you run a PuG and you got your butts kicked look at your composition, Healers vs Healers, Protection vs Protection and then Damage vs Damage. Know your role and play as a team and on the streets always travel with a buddy! (Hopefully you can run faster then them so you can get away while they trash 'em!)

[Laforet]

Sorc/Sage is underpowered if you consider that no other class needs a peel to DPS. Healing will always require a peel, but to DPS? That's just poor design.

 

Fact is, we are supposed to be casters, but in order to cast one must stand still. Standing still means death 100% of the time if you are being targeted. It's a Catch-22.

 

This.

[Nocadoj]

The best strategy for fighting a Mara is to run away lol.

If that isn't an option, don't use DoTs since you will need your Mezz to shut down the Mara when he pops UR.

Save your knockback for Ravage.

Use Force Slow every time it is off CD.

Your Stun should be used to burn off his Cloak of Pain.

Watch his Resolve bar like a hawk. If you fill it you are dead.

 

Leap has a minimum range, so it is possible to kite them within that distance and prevent them from using it. There is also a shorter ranged jump (rage spec) that requires rage though, so they may use that.

 

Saber throw and Dispatch both have max ranges, but no min.

 

1v1 Marauders are beatable as long as you have all your cooldowns available. Sages dont need a buff due to 1v1 but due to RWZ.

 

Sages are currently too squishy, with little burst damage. Marauders/Sentinels on the other hand, have more burst and a ton better defensive cooldowns.

 

Sages have to play defensively at the expense of offense, aka kiting losing. Marauders on the other hand, can pop their blade barrier and still play offensive.

[SinnedWill]

Sorc/Sage long duration DoT's are a bit underpowered in end-game pvp.

 

As a madness sorc. I rarely come out of a 1v1 with marauders/sents (of any spec) with less than 80% hp. They're easily countered once you know how each spec plays and don't freak out the moment they charge to you (i.e. don't knockback or stun immediately - resolve is your biggest foe as a sorcerer against a marauder and you will need to time them perfectly to turn the marauder DPS into garbage and time your stun to completely bypass their undying rage).

[Teambo]

Sorc/Sage long duration DoT's are a bit underpowered in end-game pvp.

 

As a madness sorc. I rarely come out of a 1v1 with marauders/sents (of any spec) with less than 80% hp. They're easily countered once you know how each spec plays and don't freak out the moment they charge to you (i.e. don't knockback or stun immediately - resolve is your biggest foe as a sorcerer against a marauder and you will need to time them perfectly to turn the marauder DPS into garbage and time your stun to completely bypass their undying rage).

 

Could you please elaborate on your strategy to take on a mara/Sent on 1Vs1 and come out with more than 80% of hp? I have taken a few on 1vs1 (mostly undergeared) and usually this works if I have a good LoS / kiting area and a bit of luck with crits. What do you do when they charge you if you dont stun/knockback? Chance are if you root them and force speed they will leap to you and take your health off quickly.

[SlimsPicken]

Sorcerers/sages need force cloak equivalent.

 

They also need a couple more meters on their KB and possibly a slow/root attached. Wouldnt mind seeing force speed on a 20 sec cooldown base either... but thats asking alot, Id be happy with just force cloak and the KB boost.

 

Damage wise they are fine, just cant really kite - especially without terrain around at all times. Try to maintain distance as a sorc/sage on flat ground and youre dead vs melee, which shouldnt be the case- you should be able to compete on equal footing without terrain being the one and only defense you have.

[Xerain]

Why is everyone complaining about 1v1's in an objective based group play pvp environment?

[Annex]

1v1 Marauders are beatable as long as you have all your cooldowns available. Sages dont need a buff due to 1v1 but due to RWZ. .

 

What cds? Sorcs have none!

 

Revive does not have a cd.

[MidichIorian]

Two problems:

 

1. Damage mitigation is seemingly stuck at lvl 49 for lvl 50 sorcs/sages, regardless of gear, while damage output isnt increased to the same extent, or so it seems. I've played high 40's PT'es, maras and other powerful classes in the 1-49 enough times to notice the significant difference compared to the 50 bracket.

So, based on the 1-49 bracket, I wouldnt say that there is class imbalance. The problem is, IMO, that sorcs/sages do not scale well with expertise and attribute min/maxing. This leaves us in a position where LOS is the main factor for success. The problem is just that we're currently in minority in the 50 bracket, on behalf of the majority of former sorcs/sages not having what it takes, so whenever one of the other classes see a sorc/sage linger in the background it instantly becomes a target. Kiting is fine in OW, it does not work as well when there are seven other enemies around and most of them can close the gap rather quickly or slow us down.

 

2. The community. While BW is responsible for the core mechanics it's ulltimately up to the community to decide how enjoyable this game is going to be. It is currently not very enjoyable unless you play one of the classes the majority has rolled and plays on in the 50 bracket. With diversity it would have been perfectly fine to play on a sorc/sage, with six pt'es/maras on every enemy team...not so much. The second one catches you and another jumps in you're dead in 2 GCD'es. The thing is that I'm perfectly fine with dying fast, my problem is that if I'm going to die that fast when caught I want to be able to be top dps when left alone. Sorcs/sages are currently not top dps'es unless you count accumulated dot damage, something that in reality does nothing.

 

Solution: Things have changed since pre-1.2, a time when sorcs/sages were refered to as OP. We are, with the new expertise curve and people stacking power, in relation, much more squishy. Hence, our dps should be brought back to pre-1.2 settings. I'm not sure if I would want the same dynamics as pre-1.2 but I want burst and perhaps most of all better force economy. The latter is important because I constantly find myself in a position where I could have fought back IF it hadnt been for the fact that I've lived for more than a minute and is now down to zero force. It's hard to successfully kite someone when all I have in my arsenal is FL and affliction.

We need something that makes other classes think twice before they attack because we're currently at a point where anyone will jump us, knowing that they will win unless the sorc/sage has most things off CD, has a lot of force and is played by a significally better player than themselves. It's basically a win-win scenario for the opponents because even if the sorc/sage would fulfill those three requirements it won't have the burst to burn someone down so they can always get away if everything els fails.

 

tl_dr- I do, as a sorc/sage, NOT want an extra defensive CD. I want burst and a bigger force pool so I can be the DPS I specced to be. A defensive CD won't change much other than that I will be out of force longer and just as squishy, while not having any burst, when it's on CD.

Edited July 24, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Rothirian]

I'd like to see this from a pvp perspective. Sorcerers aren't that underpowered but we have to deal with Sentinels and they are overpowered against the sorcerer. I can't even "battle" a sentinel properly. I'm dead in 5 seconds and I do know how to play.. So I wonder if they could be nerfed without the QQ

[Nocadoj]

What cds? Sorcs have none!

 

Revive does not have a cd.

 

Force Lift, Force Stun, Bubble, Force Speed, Force Slow, AoE Knockback, Self Heals, Sever Force.

 

Enough tools to handle a Marauder 1v1.

 

But again, 1v1 is not the problem nor is End Game PvP balanced around it. RWZ is the problem, due to our inability burst like a PT/Marauder, less survivability than PT/Marauder, and harder to play than PT/marauder.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Nocadoj

[kcol]

It's never 1v1 in a warzone on a Sage. If I actually get the chance to 1v1 a Mara I can rip him apart, but as soon as they think they are going to lose even with their DCD's, the Mara calls his Mara/PT/Jug friend and it's insta-death. I actually have a harder time against PT's, the tank spec or pyro.

[vimm]

I'm happy with my Sorcerer.

[kcol]

I'm happy with my Sorcerer.

 

And I agree or I wouldn't play mine. I think people need to look at the strengths of the Sage/Sorc and not focus so much on the weaknesses. I get into trouble with mine interupting healers which draws ALOT of attention from the opposing teams heavy hitters.

[MidichIorian]

Force Lift, Force Stun, Bubble, Force Speed, Force Slow, AoE Knockback, Self Heals, Sever Force.

 

Enough tools to handle a Marauder 1v1.

Yes ONE mara and assuming that you have everything off CD. I don't know what game you're playing but there are six pt'es/maras and usually some sneaky OP and a sniper on the opposite team in my wz'es. If you constantly have everything off CD you're either doing it wrong or you're simply playing clueless opponents. My games basically consists of me kiting person after person. Two maras and you're down to pretty much zero force. Gone are the days when you could save force by spamming force lighting for wrath from one spot.

Add to this that no one thinks a sage/sorc is stupid enough to play as dps in the 50 bracket so as soon as they see you they'll jump you, thinking that you are a healer.

 

Aoe knockback requires points in the lightning tree to be able to root.

 

Sever requires full balance/madness and is a crap ability to take since it steals deathfield crits from better dots.

 

Force speed =/= immunity to roots, slow and pulls. It's never useful against people who know what they're doing. Might work to lose LOS, assuming that you're not in the open. There arent that many things to hide behind in 3 of the wz'es.

 

Self heals, stupid to waste points on in the current enviroment. Getting 200 HP every now and then does not change much when you're getting hit for 4K back to back.

 

Bubble takes one crit and then you're deionized. You can't even have a sage/sorc healer throw another one on you.

 

Force lift is only good for running away. It's not an offensive ability IMO.

 

Force stun has a long CD unless you waste points on it.

 

You are talking about a 93 point spec.

Edited July 24, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Monterone]

That's a tough one for a sorc... if you're going against one of the newer marauders who haven't learned quite how to play it yet, you may be able to kite them effectively and actually cast abilities a few times.

 

If you're going against a good marauder you need to run. Not run away and hide, but run and los... and then heal. And do that a lot. Slow them whenever you can, knockback, root, sprint away and los, then toss a couple of small heals, or a large and then a small heal (I use recklessness on heals if under half health), depending how far you are and how good your los location is. Keep any dots you have available up all the time, and use instant damage like shock/project when you can.

 

I currently run a madness/lightning hybrid so if I see 1.5 sec FL/TT proc up, that's about the only thing I'll stop for and actually cast, and it may also proc for an instant CD/MC in that 1.5 sec.

 

Bottom line is, you won't out-dps a good marauder no matter what, and you won't outlast or outlive one so your number one tactics is kite, run, los and heal.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Monterone