Deception Sin is Broken

[Gidoru]

Shinarika stacks power, as do the other good shadows. Its really not even a question. If you're stacking crit, you're doing it wrong and gimping your burst.

 

Im not saying that Shinarika is bad, but honestly anyone can edit a video together from a bunch of Warzones in which you use recklessness and crit your main attacks and do insane burst. Do many warzones and you can find many individual instances where you blow someone up really fast. Edit these together and you have a video that looks cool certainly, but doesnt represent the class the other 90% of the time. This does not make the player or the class good.

 

Admittedly ive only seen one of his videos and it was just a series of fights, most of which involve him critting, meaning that in most of them he had recklessness. If a class is only good every 1.5 min for one round of burst then its not very good at all.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Gidoru

[Skolops]

Im not saying that Shinarika is bad, but honestly anyone can edit a video together from a bunch of Warzones in which you use recklessness and crit your main attacks and do insane burst. Do many warzones and you can find many individual instances where you blow someone up really fast. Edit these together and you have a video that looks cool certainly, but doesnt represent the class the other 90% of the time. This does not make the player or the class good.

 

Admittedly ive only seen one of his videos and it was just a series of fights, most of which involve him critting, meaning that in most of them he had recklessness. If a class is only good every 1.5 min for one round of burst then its not very good at all.

 

Shinarika is good. I have seen enough of her to know, and she doesn't just put up short vidoes of big hits.

 

However, whether she is good or not is not ultimately as important in this discussion. What is important is the results her gear produces, which are not debatable and are good.

 

As to a class only being able to burst ever minute or so (with the set bonus)... well, that is precisely why many people think the spec is underpowered. If you stack crit and get more frequent bursts, they're really only as good as most the other DPS class' normal, non -burst rotations. If you stack power and get bursts that are actually good, then you can only do it once in a while.

[JahDux]

Guys...guys...chill....it is broken.

 

For a mellee dps pvp oriented spec it creates a character with less burst power than other mellees as well as overall dd, less utility and survivabilty.

 

I played months and months of Deception, im full wh optimized, play a lot and not half bad and its by far my favourite spec, but ultimately respeced darkness cuz it was just not working.

 

PS: L2P doesn't apply here sorry, I'll teach you how to play it if you wanna, dont be mad. But you'll just come to the same conclusion as I did.

[Aehgo]

I think you can use shinarika as a good example,as she is an awesome player.

She used deception in her latest video,you can see 6k crits etc,you can also see recklessness.She stacked power,so she needed the recklessness in order to crit,otherwise you would see the shock hitting for 2k,Maul 2.5k,discharge 3k etc..Compare this to her tank/hybrid vidoes((Although its kinda hard due to patch changes)),you can see she does almost the same/better damage,alot more survivablity and utility..

But see BW will not buff the deception tree,instead they will nerf the hybrid and darkness trees/

Edited July 25, 2012 by Aehgo

[Gidoru]

Shinarika is good. I have seen enough of her to know, and she doesn't just put up short vidoes of big hits.

 

However, whether she is good or not is not ultimately as important in this discussion. What is important is the results her gear produces, which are not debatable and are good.

 

As to a class only being able to burst ever minute or so (with the set bonus)... well, that is precisely why many people think the spec is underpowered. If you stack crit and get more frequent bursts, they're really only as good as most the other DPS class' normal, non -burst rotations. If you stack power and get bursts that are actually good, then you can only do it once in a while.

 

That was pretty much my point. Doing consistent burst only every minute is not good in the sense that the spec doesnt perform well all-around, particularly in team based play. The survivability is also some of the worst in the game. Full Madness as well as Darkness are quite a bit better. Although for my tastes Darkness is far too easy and simple of a spec.

[Ahhmyface]

Enough.

 

Watching low-qual players debate mechanics just makes my head hurt. That guy with all the "PRO" tips just made my rofl all over myself because his lack of experience is glaringly obvious.

 

Let's establish a few base facts:

 

1. Very few players play deception

2. Of the few that do, very few highly ranked teams run one of them

3. Hence, if you ranked class/spec combinations by average rating, would put deception sins somewhere near the bottom of the pile.

4. Stacking crit or power doesn't matter. They both give dps, and the difference is not going to be significant enough to notice, let alone make or break a spec.

5. Your hero, Shinarika, has posted on several occasions that deception is underpowered, so using her as your example is really frigging stupid.

 

Now we can pretend that they're just an enigma that nobody, among thousands and thousands of experienced pvpers who have tried, has been able to crack. Or, we can take the astronomically higher probability that the spec is just not a great choice when compared to alternative trees and classes.

 

It's not just about class balance either. High level metagame is very biased towards the win-the-big-battle-then-hold strategy. Which almost instantaneously excludes niche classes like deception sins. You need big damage dealers, powerful heals, and strong defense. Deception sins have difficulty contributing to big battles because of their vulnerabilities. Even on the 1v1 front, you don't have the dps to take out half the classes in a 1v1, and you can only defend well in very specialized (out of combat solo door mindtrapping) situations. You're mobile, but you're not a leaper, and you're not strong enough to carry a ball. Worst of all, your supposed dps never comes even close to several classes that can lob shots from the safety of 20m, nestled tight between healers and tanks. You don't have any clutch abilities that will save you from being focused like some classes (cough, marauder). And you don't have a pull, something both powertechs and tankasins have, and is 100% required for ranked play.

 

It's my opinion that deception is a weak spec, exacerbated by overpowered PT and marauders. Were those 2 classes more in line, I think you could argue inclusion of a deception sin. But as it stands, you have to outplay by a wide margin to give the same performance.

 

If any deception sins or infil shadows who are RANKED would like to debate this fact, you're welcome to. Random pubs with theorycraft can save it, thanks.

[Skolops]

That was pretty much my point. Doing consistent burst only every minute is not good in the sense that the spec doesnt perform well all-around, particularly in team based play. The survivability is also some of the worst in the game. Full Madness as well as Darkness are quite a bit better. Although for my tastes Darkness is far too easy and simple of a spec.

 

Ehh, I've always had a much easier time surviving in Deception than Madness. I think the main reason may be that Madness requires more "noticable uptime" on a target. That may sound funny, seeing as how in your face Voltaic slash is, but in the end with Deception I am still killing people fast enough that even when someone else comes to get me, I'm now fighting 1 on 1 instead of 2 on 1, whereas in Madness I am wailing on a guy waiting for a proc when a second man comes in to help.

[Skolops]

Enough.

 

Watching low-qual players debate mechanics just makes my head hurt. That guy with all the "PRO" tips just made my rofl all over myself because his lack of experience is glaringly obvious.

 

Let's establish a few base facts:

 

1. Very few players play deception

2. Of the few that do, very few highly ranked teams run one of them

3. Hence, if you ranked class/spec combinations by average rating, would put deception sins somewhere near the bottom of the pile.

4. Stacking crit or power doesn't matter. They both give dps, and the difference is not going to be significant enough to notice, let alone make or break a spec.

5. Your hero, Shinarika, has posted on several occasions that deception is underpowered, so using her as your example is really frigging stupid.

 

Now we can pretend that they're just an enigma that nobody, among thousands and thousands of experienced pvpers who have tried, has been able to crack. Or, we can take the astronomically higher probability that the spec is just not a great choice when compared to alternative trees and classes.

 

It's not just about class balance either. High level metagame is very biased towards the win-the-big-battle-then-hold strategy. Which almost instantaneously excludes niche classes like deception sins. You need big damage dealers, powerful heals, and strong defense. Deception sins have difficulty contributing to big battles because of their vulnerabilities. Even on the 1v1 front, you don't have the dps to take out half the classes in a 1v1, and you can only defend well in very specialized (out of combat solo door mindtrapping) situations. You're mobile, but you're not a leaper, and you're not strong enough to carry a ball. Worst of all, your supposed dps never comes even close to several classes that can lob shots from the safety of 20m, nestled tight between healers and tanks. You don't have any clutch abilities that will save you from being focused like some classes (cough, marauder). And you don't have a pull, something both powertechs and tankasins have, and is 100% required for ranked play.

 

It's my opinion that deception is a weak spec, exacerbated by overpowered PT and marauders. Were those 2 classes more in line, I think you could argue inclusion of a deception sin. But as it stands, you have to outplay by a wide margin to give the same performance.

 

If any deception sins or infil shadows who are RANKED would like to debate this fact, you're welcome to. Random pubs with theorycraft can save it, thanks.

 

Please check the ego at the door - especially if you are going to try to assert some authority on the basis of a meager 1400 rating..

 

Now, moving on... nobody has ever listed Shinarika as a "hero" in support of Deception. She was brought up only once that I know of, to cite her gearing strategy, and no more.

 

As to that gearing, the fact is that stacking power will produce more DPS than crit. It is not an irrelevant point and one which very much makes a tremendous difference in the spec.

[upzie]

Please check the ego at the door - especially if you are going to try to assert some authority on the basis of a meager 1400 rating..

 

Now, moving on... nobody has ever listed Shinarika as a "hero" in support of Deception. She was brought up only once that I know of, to cite her gearing strategy, and no more.

 

As to that gearing, the fact is that stacking power will produce more DPS than crit. It is not an irrelevant point and one which very much makes a tremendous difference in the spec.

 

He's right though

[Skolops]

He's right though

 

No, he's actually really not. Shin has tested it and come to this conclusion, I have as well, as have many others. Stacking crit is just bad gearing if you want to play anything other than Madness.

[upzie]

No, he's actually really not. Shin has tested it and come to this conclusion, I have as well, as have many others. Stacking crit is just bad gearing if you want to play anything other than Madness.

 

Doesnt matter if you stack crit or power, Deception sins are bad in rwz.

 

And yes power > crit for Deception, but look above, it doesnt matter for rwz, because your still not as valuable as another class/specc. As I mentioned in my first post, the only reason to bring a deception sin is if you have specificly tailored tacs for the specc, or if you pref the player over the class/specc.

 

So in general his post is pretty spot on.

Edited July 25, 2012 by upzie

[stephenalandavie]

Better survivability? lmfao do you get the point of deception/infiltration at all??

[Laforet]

Enough.

 

Watching low-qual players debate mechanics just makes my head hurt. That guy with all the "PRO" tips just made my rofl all over myself because his lack of experience is glaringly obvious.

 

Let's establish a few base facts:

 

1. Very few players play deception

2. Of the few that do, very few highly ranked teams run one of them

3. Hence, if you ranked class/spec combinations by average rating, would put deception sins somewhere near the bottom of the pile.

4. Stacking crit or power doesn't matter. They both give dps, and the difference is not going to be significant enough to notice, let alone make or break a spec.

5. Your hero, Shinarika, has posted on several occasions that deception is underpowered, so using her as your example is really frigging stupid.

 

Now we can pretend that they're just an enigma that nobody, among thousands and thousands of experienced pvpers who have tried, has been able to crack. Or, we can take the astronomically higher probability that the spec is just not a great choice when compared to alternative trees and classes.

 

It's not just about class balance either. High level metagame is very biased towards the win-the-big-battle-then-hold strategy. Which almost instantaneously excludes niche classes like deception sins. You need big damage dealers, powerful heals, and strong defense. Deception sins have difficulty contributing to big battles because of their vulnerabilities. Even on the 1v1 front, you don't have the dps to take out half the classes in a 1v1, and you can only defend well in very specialized (out of combat solo door mindtrapping) situations. You're mobile, but you're not a leaper, and you're not strong enough to carry a ball. Worst of all, your supposed dps never comes even close to several classes that can lob shots from the safety of 20m, nestled tight between healers and tanks. You don't have any clutch abilities that will save you from being focused like some classes (cough, marauder). And you don't have a pull, something both powertechs and tankasins have, and is 100% required for ranked play.

 

It's my opinion that deception is a weak spec, exacerbated by overpowered PT and marauders. Were those 2 classes more in line, I think you could argue inclusion of a deception sin. But as it stands, you have to outplay by a wide margin to give the same performance.

 

If any deception sins or infil shadows who are RANKED would like to debate this fact, you're welcome to. Random pubs with theorycraft can save it, thanks.

 

 

/clap

 

The same argument can be made to any AC/spec who isnt mara, pyropt, OP healer and tankasins.

 

These 4 ACs/builds do everything that is required to win RWZs (with the exception of friendly pulls) and they do BETTER than any other build/AC in the game.

 

You can compstomp anything if you build a team with the aforementioned classes, even without friendly pulls huttball with 3-4 enemy pulls (stacking tankasins and ptechs) will be cake because the enemy will never score.

 

Sure, if you know a great sniper throw him there, same for a GREAT sorc for some friendly pull love, smart juggs might be nice on some maps, but far from mandatory as tankasins. The aforementioned ACs/specs do all the heavy lifting that is required to win RWZs with MEDIOCRE players running them.

 

Fail game design makes for fail PvP.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Laforet

[Skolops]

Doesnt matter if you stack crit or power, Deception sins are bad in rwz.

 

And yes power > crit for Deception, but look above, it doesnt matter for rwz, because your still not as valuable as another class/specc. As I mentioned in my first post, the only reason to bring a deception sin is if you have specificly tailored tacs for the specc, or if you pref the player over the class/specc.

 

So in general his post is pretty spot on.

 

Ok, well if by "he's right" you meant about that, I would agree generally, with a few exceptions. A well geared and well played Deception Shadow can be very dangerous at a solo guarded node and make it harder for the other team to be or even just feel safe leaving one man there.

 

I'm not saying they are great, but there is a certain utility to them if they are played a particular way.

[Daiyukie]

As to gearing, its the bad assassins whostack crit - or at least the ones who will perform sub optimally. Stacking power and surge will give you that giant burst. Stacking crit just gives you a more frequent wet paper towel burst. Shinarika stacks power, as do the other good shadows. Its really not even a question. If you're stacking crit, you're doing it wrong and gimping your burst.

 

Shinarika also doesn't play Deception. Higher crit than 15% is required for Deception.

[Skolops]

Shinarika also doesn't play Deception. Higher crit than 15% is required for Deception.

 

She plays all three specs and rotates them as she has interest, or something along those lines. She even has videos up of playing it since 1.3. She has also posted a lot and made videos on the subject, much of which I have seen and read. When she does comment on it, she has said very clearly that for Infiltration (Deception) she wants to stack power and get crit as low as even 20%. I was actually personally involved in one of the discussions where she defends this decision so I remember it clearly.

[Gidoru]

Ehh, I've always had a much easier time surviving in Deception than Madness. I think the main reason may be that Madness requires more "noticable uptime" on a target. That may sound funny, seeing as how in your face Voltaic slash is, but in the end with Deception I am still killing people fast enough that even when someone else comes to get me, I'm now fighting 1 on 1 instead of 2 on 1, whereas in Madness I am wailing on a guy waiting for a proc when a second man comes in to help.

 

Madness has substantially better survivability than Deception. If you think Madness doesnt kill people quickly then you're doing it wrong.

Using the Sorc Mystic 2 set you heal for a substantial amount, its not uncommon to regularly get 75k healing medal and you can quite often get 100k + healing in longer games.

Furthermore Madness has an extra stun and better utility with Creeping Terror root which allows you to kite melee classes and root kiters in place.

Being a Madness Assassins since launch and casually playing Deception every so often for fun i notice a substantial loss in survivability.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Gidoru

[Skolops]

Madness has substantially better survivability than Deception. If you think Madness doesnt kill people quickly then you're doing it wrong.

Using the Sorc Mystic 2 set you heal for a substantial amount, its not uncommon to regularly get 75k healing medal and you can quite often get 100k + healing in longer games.

Furthermore Madness has an extra stun and better utility with Creeping Terror root which allows you to kite melee classes and root kiters in place.

Being a Madness Assassins since launch and casually playing Deception every so often for fun i notice a substantial loss in survivability.

 

More than likely my gear is causing the problems, as I do not have nearly the crit rating to properly run Madness.

 

That said, anytime I have ever played balance I am very often killed before I can actually get two double strikes off to even hope to proc anything - and I'm not exaggerating (and I'm also pretty skilled on the other two specs so I don't think it's just me being bad). Given that, I have a hard time thinking there's even really time for the healing to kick in to help me out. It's not even like I can lift anyone to help me out given how many people are on me.

 

When I play the other two specs - including Infiltration - I do far better.

[Ahhmyface]

I'm not going to debate pow vs crit, that's not the point. You can download simulation craft for yourself and try it out. Or you can do the math.

 

500 power is 115 bonus damage. Let's pretend crit has literally 0 benefit, and all deception sins have been stacking crit. Giving them all 115 bonus damage isn't going to do anything, and the class will still be underpowred.

 

point stands.

 

fyi, 1400 rating is pretty damn good for deception. Even though that rating is laughable for any other class, I'm probably the highest deception sin on my server, and I barely play anymore. This is why my challenge stands to anybody who plays ranked to disagree with me. If anything my pathetic rating supports my point. Where are all the high ranked deception sins telling me to L2P?

Edited July 25, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Skolops]

I'm not going to debate pow vs crit, that's not the point. You can download simulation craft for yourself and try it out. Or you can do the math.

 

500 power is 115 bonus damage. Let's pretend crit has literally 0 benefit, and all deception sins have been stacking crit. Giving them all 115 bonus damage isn't going to do anything, and the class will still be underpowred.

 

point stands.

 

fyi, 1400 rating is pretty damn good for deception. Even though that rating is laughable for any other class, I'm probably the highest deception sin on my server, and I barely play anymore.

 

I can tell you from experience of having geared it both ways that the difference between a 30% crit rating and 400 power and a 20% crit rating with 850 power is HUGE, in favor of the latter.

 

You also need to keep in mind that its not the score you get at the end of the warzone that matters for a Deception Assassin - its the kills, and you're going to get a heck of a lot more kills with power over crit.

 

Stacking power lets you take down that healer. Stacking crit lets you raise that healer's final score.

[Ahhmyface]

I can tell you from experience of having geared it both ways that the difference between a 30% crit rating and 400 power and a 20% crit rating with 850 power is HUGE, in favor of the latter.

 

You also need to keep in mind that its not the score you get at the end of the warzone that matters for a Deception Assassin - its the kills, and you're going to get a heck of a lot more kills with power over crit.

 

Stacking power lets you take down that healer. Stacking crit lets you raise that healer's final score.

 

115 damage does not let you take down anything. Quit deluding yourself.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[BambulaGTS]

Honestly, all that talks about stealth burst classes (operative - gimme gap closer, deception - gimme mobility) sounds unjustified.

 

So if you stealth folks recive something that reduce your downtime and will have more uptime on your targets (gap closers, mobility etc), why you should keep your burst?

 

You know, lightning pew pew autoslow on target bla bla bla is not so bursty, guess why? Cause the target is kinda limited in escape mechanisms.

 

Less uptime = more burst. Less burst = better range, more tools to decrease enemy mobility/increase your mobility to have that uptime.

Edited July 25, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[upzie]

Actually after having sleept and had abit time to give it some thought I believe that if swtor would fix their incombat system, so it was not broken as ****, then deception assassins would proberly be pretty solid, but beeing forced to stay in combat for 30+ secs after you break stealth is broken as ****. If they fixed like wow, lets say 5 sec w/o player interaction would take you out of combat, then I could see deception beeing alot more viable from that alone, since you would be able to utilize Dark Embrace on a regulaer basis, wich would give you the dmg your looking for, and be able to setup burst on a competetive basis.

[Sookster]

I've played all 3 specs and a handful of hybrids and I keep sticking to madness (either 7/3/31 or 3/7/31), I have 1084 max weapon dmg, 41-42% crit, 73-74% surge, 470-520 power depending on the gear I flip between. Stacking more power than crit is the trick to being able to do any damage on any spec, stalker gear adds waaaaaaaaaaay too much crit (36% after operative buff is about as far as you should go).

 

Even then, deception is just.... garbage, it takes too long to setup and has no defense while setting up, so you absolutely must catch the target by surprise to get the upper hand in pvp.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Sookster

[Skolops]

115 damage does not let you take down anything. Quit deluding yourself.

 

You just don't know what you're talking about, you really don't. Have you played with 400 power, and also with 800, and seen the difference? I have.

 

Did you know what power affects different abilities differently, and will boost, say, Project more than it does Clairvoyant Strike? I don't think you did, because if so you couldn't have assigned a flat damage boost to what power gives you.

 

Have you considered how power plays in when considering a crit, as well as the extra crit bonus from the Deception tree? I'll give you an example:

 

At 1490 Willpower, 400 power, and with a Battlemaster Hilt, Project can hit for 2770 damage, give or take (using the actual formulas that the game does to calculate everything).

 

If we up the power by your 500, that goes from 2770 to 3039, a gain of about 270 which is significant and does add up. Now keep in mind that this is a non critical hit, so you will be seeing this gain with every Project you do. A critical hit, on the other hand, can go from 6233 all the way to 6838, which, yes, can be the difference between a burst killing a target and not killing it.

 

On top of this, it is also affecting your Force Breach, bringing (with the same stats) a standard hit from 1992 damage with 400 power to 2192 with 900 for a gain of 200, and a critical hit from 4483 to 4933 for a gain of 460. That means over an extra 1000 damage in your burst, which can be the difference between killing a healer and not.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Skolops