Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[AlyxDinas]

After watching videos of GW2 PvP, the gameplay looks incredibly smooth and lag-free.

 

Structured, sure. Although I admit to having no major issues with warzones in this game. Lag still comes in WvWvW but that's sort of to be expected. No matter how much a developer tells you they can do 100 v. 100 players, there's always system strain.

 

I laugh at all this. I have fun in TOR still. I'll have fun in GW2. We should all be so lucky to have as many games out there that we enjoy.

[Necrosov]

Structured, sure. Although I admit to having no major issues with warzones in this game. Lag still comes in WvWvW but that's sort of to be expected. No matter how much a developer tells you they can do 100 v. 100 players, there's always system strain.

 

I laugh at all this. I have fun in TOR still. I'll have fun in GW2. We should all be so lucky to have as many games out there that we enjoy.

 

Perhaps if you have very low end computer it will lag a lot. I personally had no slow down with 100 ppl on my screen while spells were going off like 4th of july fireworks and trebuchets, catapults, ballistas were raining death down on the keeps we were fighting at.. My computer is not the greatest either : AMD FX-6100 6 core 3.3ghz, 8gb ddr3 nvidia 9800gt 64-bit OS. The game wasn't optimized yet either from what I read on the forums. Just food for thought. I was really impressed with how well the game ran.

[Astarica]

ArenaNet made enough money from the original Guild Wars that they were able to keep pay to win out of it yet still be able to spend as long as they need to perfect the sequel. They know people will spend a few dollars on certain things, which are completely unnecessary to play the game, or provide alternate means to obtain those items. It isn't a new philosophy for them, they've been living it since they were formed in 2000. They are a bunch of gamers, not a bunch of MBAs. That new philosophy you are talking about has been around for a while, you just haven't seen it.

 

Oh, and one of the things they are actually concerned about in their games is fun. http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success They don't need that grinding nonsense to keep people paying, if people aren't having fun they won't spend money.

 

Greed is greed. It's like you ask an pro sports athelete why does he care he makes $30 million an year instead of $20 million since to you it's both a stupid amount of money, but the athlete sure cares about the difference between $20 and $30 milion. I can easily say ArenaNet didn't make that much money off Guild Wars because Guild Wars sucked as opposed to some motive to not want to make a lot of money. Trion is the only company I've seen that's willing to take less money and that's probably a pure business decision (less money is still better than no money) so until the company proves they're willing to take less money as opposed to just incapable of making money, I'm going to assume all of them operates on the 'rip the player off' model.

 

Literally every dev has talked about something similar as GW2 did and I won't put much stock into such things. You can probably ad lib these statements without even any understanding of the genre.

 

By the way the whole thing about 'non intrusive cash shop' or whatever the latest incarnation of these buzzwords really means 'our devs were dumb and created a useless cash shop that no one wants'. EQ2 is probably the best example of this, where they gave away too much free stuff and the deals from the cash shop are all extremely favorable to the player. So the end result is that you can play the full game while paying virtually nothing. Now that's a good deal for the players but it's probably not very good on the bottom line for SOE. Sure, devs do make mistakes but you shouldn't count on them screwing up the cash shop in favor of the players. If it happens feel free to take advantage of it but don't count on such generosity, and if the game turns out to be successful it will be remedied eventually, unless you've a case where the game maker is actually interested in delivering a good product for cheap as opposed to just talking about it.

[Katsuragisama]

Greed is greed. It's like you ask an pro sports athelete why does he care he makes $30 million an year instead of $20 million since to you it's both a stupid amount of money, but the athlete sure cares about the difference between $20 and $30 milion.

 

While true, I feel that unless they are completely acting, or maybe I'm an idiot, they feel passionate about the games they make. They've also been playing GW2 for the past 3 years, testing it themselves. They figure, "If we think its fun, then I'm sure our customers will too." Instead of the general presumption that, "If we push it out early, while missing features, we can sucker in some players to regain some of our investment, and patch it up later." Which I think is the general idea behind many MMO companies today. After watching "ArenaNet's MMO Manifesto", "Guild Wars 2 Developer Talk - Eurogamer 2011", "ArenaNet Community Open House Video". So I feel pretty confident in putting some faith in them. It wont be blind faith, mind you, but it will be more faith than most MMO/game developing companies get in my mind lately.

 

And if athletes are passionate about the sport they play, I dont think we'd hear some of them whine so much over making a little less money.

[kyube]

That's nonsense - there's absolutely an objectivity to what's good or bad. Consider one person coming in with a nice trumpet in working order and another coming in with a beat up old thing with rusty valves and a warped body - the first player's is going to sound vastly superior.

As for the gear, of course stock WH and BM gear is not really all that ideal for most classes, but the point is everyone can get that gear eventually just by spending time, whereas something like a Naga mouse may be completely inaccessible to a player because of real-world financial circumstances.

Somewhere my philosophy professor is face palming so hard that he most likely pushed his hand through his head. Since you have zero knowledge of this subject I won’t even attempt to explain this concept to you. And what good is that wh gear that you finally customized to bis status when a week earlier conqueror gear came out?TIme is scarce so there are people pvp'ing right now who cannot get the best possible gear.

 

I hardly notice very many bugs these days, and I really don't enjoy large scale PvP, so it doesn't bother me. This goes back to my original point that those the most excited about and likely to go to GW2 are those who are craving large scale world PvP.

Just today:

Booted to the desktop twice.

Performance is still absolutely shocking in a voidstar match. I'm playing on a 680gtx sli btw.

Multiple ui lock ups / ops chat not working/ general unresponsiveness of the ui.

8th member is still sometimes missing in the ops frame.....seriously bio?

While accepting the pvp queu i got booted to the character screen twice.

 

And this is just from today......these bioware coders have to go back to school.

 

You seem to be conceding my point: gear grinding isn't a problem, because those players with skill don't really need it to compete. Those skilled, good players don't really need the top of the line, best gear to succeed, and can just hop into PvP and do well. So why all the hype about GW2's bolstering, then? Which brings me too a later point...

You have a nasty habit of cherry picking arguments. Earlier I posted this when someone else claimed gear doesn’t matter at all.

To make this argument even clearer. If you have a match between the two best teams in swtor pvp in the world. You give the best team in the world just recruit gear nothing else, and you give the number two of the world augmented wh gear and of course you give them the ability to min max their armor trough mod customization. And of course the Team composition is the same. There's no doubt in my mind that in a best of 3 the number 2 team will win.

Today I had absolutely no problem killing wh geared people on my newly geared assassin, since they were all backpedalling / clickers with 0 knowledge of the game. The point still stands that I was at a disadvantage at the start which shouldn’t be the case.

Are you quite certain about this, as virtually everyone I know is of the understanding that the party members' rankings are taken into consideration when matchmaking.

Only while hot joining a game.

 

Arenanet has already nerfed the crap out of some of the classes in GW2 to the point that some are considering them unplayable for structured PvP. Don't kld yourself - you're not getting anything in GW2 you don't get in any other MMO, including huge, class breaking nerf bats. .

Hell the meta game might shift which could mean that your class is no longer needed in the team. No problem within 5 minutes you got a lvl 80 of another class, and all the gear you earned on your former char can be accessed by the new char. But yeah a 70 hour grind is much more preferable over a situation like that.

I think in the end you're going to be quite disillusioned by this game - whether you like TOR, think it's awful, or not. I myself will play it a little bit both to try something new out and because I like the setting, but I doubt very highly I'll get my desire for competitive PvP satisfied through it, and I doubt even moreso that it will still be considered a haven for hardcore PvPers after a few months in.

Again already explained why hardcore pvp’ers will stay. If you want to ignore it fine, but it managed to keep people attached to the game for years.

 

I just don't think "achievement"-wear is enticing to many. Do you know how much interest I have in wearing that operation title, or the ranked war hero gear? Zero. Getting that next regular WH piece, though? Oh baby, bring it on!

This game is not meant for you then.

Why are people calling GW2 F2P? You have to buy the game. A real F2P is like LoL. With that said, eventually the first GW1 had those P2W elements, I'm not sure why the second one won't be any different. I'm sure it won't at first, but people are kind of fooling themselves if it eventually won't.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store it was not p2w at all. Claiming you had to buy the expansion to be competitive is like complaining that you have to buy the eventual expansion to this game to keep doing ranked matches. Or let’s make it even better, complaining that you won’t be able to do arena in wow because you didn’t buy the expansion. Guess I missed the news when WoW went p2w.

 

The "art" of GW2 is exactly what will keep alot of people from playing it.

 

In GW2 you can essentially be:

 

a tree

a lizard

a mouse

a dog

a cat

 

Sounds dumb as hell to me. Have fun with your stupid game that will attract the furries off the internet like noobs to the star wars forums qq'ing about balance

I sure hope the rumor about those cat people won’t become reality. And there is nothing resembling a mouse/dog/lizard in gw2. But keep fighting the good fight against those furies.

Yep, another fail Korean base game that sucks the money outta your wallet for more bling bling. If this is what this generation of so called gamers want then by all means leave the real rpg mmo games alone and never come back to real gaming far as a mmo is concerned.

I get so sick of people thinking FTP and cash shop games are the real deal, rpg games since EQ was never like this and it should never be like this.

Its a greedy mmo crowd out here and games like GW2 will suck you dry for your cash, you can bet that.

If you think mico-transaction is the only thing GW2 has in store then you have no idea what they are going to try to do.

 

There is a intention to FTP, its called money leech.

Arena net is not a Korean company. And it’s rather funny you mention “real mmo” since a lot of people see swtor as a single player game with some 8 player minigames mixed in. A sort of bigger diablo 3 if you will. Honestly have you people never played dota 2 or team fortress 2. That greedy Valve really sucked the player base dry with p2w games, ooooo wait…

I also frankly do not trust the developers that this will not be coming feature which somehow impacts spvp down the line or that a real money will not in some way come into the picture. As others have pointed out, they are in this to make money and eventually they will start to tighten the noose.

Spvp is the lifeblood of that game, everything tells us that they most likely go the way valve model of f2p and not EA’s play4free. Yeah hopefully swtor never goes f2p cause if it does then based on EA’s play4 free model I can actually see the birth of a new p2w game.

Everything I'm saying is coming directly from blogs videos and articles, often from the developers themselves. On top of that there are plenty of other posters in this and other topics to have played the beta and are saying the same and even far worse things than I am.

Those players are trolls and are even more misinformed then you. Not saying that there isnt anyone who has some honest feedback but people who claim it sucks cause of w/e arent good sources.Honestly I praise you for all the research you’re trying to do for a game that’s most likely not your cup of tea, but there’s a limit to what you can know without playing the beta’s. At the moment it’s almost like explaining a gold fish how Amsterdam looks like.

By the way the whole thing about 'non-intrusive cash shop' or whatever the latest incarnation of these buzzwords really means 'our devs were dumb and created a useless cash shop that no one wants'. EQ2 is probably the best example of this, where they gave away too much free stuff and the deals from the cash shop are all extremely favorable to the player. So the end result is that you can play the full game while paying virtually nothing. Now that's a good deal for the players but it's probably not very good on the bottom line for SOE. Sure, devs do make mistakes but you shouldn't count on them screwing up the cash shop in favor of the players. If it happens feel free to take advantage of it but don't count on such generosity and if the game turns out to be successful it will be remedied eventually, unless you've a case where the game maker is actually interested in delivering a good product for cheap as opposed to just talking about it.

Valve is the best example of a company which has a non-intrusive cash shop and still makes money. Gw2 is exactly the same at the moment and if history teaches us anything, then that model will last.

Edited July 31, 2012 by kyube

[Skolops]

Somewhere my philosophy professor is face palming so hard that he most likely pushed his hand through his head. Since you have zero knowledge of this subject I won’t even attempt to explain this concept to you. And what good is that wh gear that you finally customized to bis status when a week earlier conqueror gear came out?TIme is scarce so there are people pvp'ing right now who cannot get the best possible gear.

 

 

Trust me, I understand philosophy quite well, and there isn't anything in my posts which does not at least constitute a strong argument, whether or not everything meets the standard for logical rigor - if anything anyone posts in a subject of this complexity could even hope to do so.

 

 

Just today:

Booted to the desktop twice.

Performance is still absolutely shocking in a voidstar match. I'm playing on a 680gtx sli btw.

Multiple ui lock ups / ops chat not working/ general unresponsiveness of the ui.

8th member is still sometimes missing in the ops frame.....seriously bio?

While accepting the pvp queu i got booted to the character screen twice.

 

The only one of those issues I have is the occasional ops frame absence. As to the others, I could say that your system or personal connection must be at fault. Is that necessarily true? Well, no, but its the same defense someone made of GW2 a few posts up when another member indicated that GW2 was laggy during play.

 

You have a nasty habit of cherry picking arguments. Earlier I posted this when someone else claimed gear doesn’t matter at all.

 

Today I had absolutely no problem killing wh geared people on my newly geared assassin, since they were all backpedalling / clickers with 0 knowledge of the game. The point still stands that I was at a disadvantage at the start which shouldn’t be the case.

 

I must say you have seem to have a nasty practice of failing to read everything I have written. I say this because I have consistently - very consistently, in fact, to the degree that I cannot fathom how you would miss it - said that gear does constitute an advantage and that given two players of equal skill in a one on one, the better geared player should win. I have never claimed otherwise. What I have said is that they are wrong who claim that lower tier gear is such a disadvantage that a player with lower tier gear have no ability to win in a warzone, contribute, make plays, be effective, or have fun. Just as a minor league player joining his big league team for the first time may not be able to be the centerpiece to the franchise, a recruit geared player will probably not be able to be the star or cornerstone on which a warzone turns. However, just like the minor leaguer, he can help out, play his part, make a difference, and contribute to the team's success as he moves his way up the ladder.

 

Yes, you need to gear up, but the reality is that you can make an impact while you do that, and, in fact, by the time you have Battlemaster - which the most casual of players should be able to get in very short order - you are more than sufficient to do very, very well in warzones, whether against recruit geared or WH geared opponents.

 

Hell the meta game might shift which could mean that your class is no longer needed in the team. No problem within 5 minutes you got a lvl 80 of another class, and all the gear you earned on your former char can be accessed by the new char. But yeah a 70 hour grind is much more preferable over a situation like that.

 

To me, it is, and for a number of reasons.

 

First, think of how good Sentinels and Guardians are now. Now, some may claim they're OP and others assert that they're not, but that's an issue for another day. What matters is that we can all agree they're good and classes that you'd want in your team makeup. Imagine if, at the time of release when these classes were considered garbage, the majority of those who had rolled one abandoned them and moved onto other classes. Had that happened, it would be the case that either we would never have discovered the tremendous power and utility of these classes, or that it would have taken a considerably longer time, throwing an entire range of other balance issues into a very different place from where they are today as well. This is the kind of scenario that could happen in a game with a system like GW2.

 

Look at, if you would be familiar with the example, the case of Protoss in StarCraft 2. Upon the game's release, it was considered to be a severely underpowered race, though there were also many elements of it which were unexplored. Months and months and months later, players began to discover just how powerful certain units and mechanics were, bringing the race into a very strong position. In a game like GW2 where there is little incentive not to simply roll the class perceived as the strongest or best and jump right in, we will see similar situations - months and months of class A, B, and/or C being underused instead of those who picked them at first figuring them out and showing us how they can be used well.

 

It makes for a stagnant game, and the potential for large balancing issues over time. Heck, look at the way we are allll of a sudden starting to see nothing but sentinels and vanguards in every warzone, and think about how bad this is for the game and the quality of the PvP. GW2 caters perfectly to this kind of situation. I can virtually guarantee that we will see stretches where the sPvP and WvW is filled with nothing but Mesmers, stretches of Elementalists, stretches where you never, ever see a Ranger but see Engineers at every turn. It's going to be stupid.

 

Second, I am kindof bummed about how my experience is going to be in GW2. I am a player who first rolled a Sorceror, and enjoyed it, but back then I didn't really understand this game at all. I rolled a BH with friends, and did that for a while. I eventually wanted to try Republic so I made a Shadow, and in that period of time started to come to really understand the game, the class, and PvP. Eventually I wanted a Scoundrel, so I made one, and then a Guardian, and a Slinger, and so on. Each one, I leveled entirely legitimately (no botting or anything else), and while I skipped the repetitive planet cutscenes for each toon, I always watched the class stuff. I got to understand how to PvP with each class in the lowbie warzones and had a lot of fun doing so. Each one of these that I enjoyed enough to get to 50, I did, and I began to earn the gear for that toon.

 

Now when I play a given one of these characters on a given day, there's something special about it. All of that work I put into it and all of the "getting to know" the character I did in leveling mean something to me. I am happier to play the class because of all I put into it. There's a connection there. This will be severely missed when my toons are just random "shells" that I made 5 minutes ago and never had to get to "know," never had to gear, just never had to really put any work into. It will honestly take a HUGE part of my enjoyment away from playing them, and I think that - whether they realize it or not - this will be true for many, many people.

[fungihoujo]

This will be severely missed when my toons are just random "shells" that I made 5 minutes ago and never had to get to "know," never had to gear, just never had to really put any work into. It will honestly take a HUGE part of my enjoyment away from playing them, and I think that - whether they realize it or not - this will be true for many, many people.

 

Yet, there is hundreds of hours of pvp in order to get even a moderate selection of cosmetic items- and far more than there would be to get WH gear to max out what's currently available.

 

And there's also 80 levels of pve progression if you want to level- as in SWTOR levelling off pvp is not very practical you likely did your levelling in pve- well, there's a lot of pve there.

 

Difference is- you do not HAVE to if you do not WANT to- so it all comes down to a simple- do you actually enjoy doing that grind, taking the time to earn something, or are you only doing it because you have no choice if you want to play the game? If you honestly like the grind as you say- then it is still there, it just won't give you a huge advantage over other players- so if you want to beat someone in pvp who you can't, your choice isn't to spend five times as long as they do playing, your choice is to get better.

 

And I don't see how making a character in five minutes is an issue for you- since you won't do that for new FOTM classes. If you are able to staunchly defend the balance in this game as you do, and say only bad players are saying there is imbalance as you are- then there's no imbalance out there that would be able to phase you. If you want to keep your character and keep building it up, do so- if you want to reroll every time there's a FOTM, you can do that too- what is your problem with everyone having the option to enjoy what they want in the game? Are you really that desperate to have everyone using an outdated and widely hated grind progression system that you can't stand it when some people get to play as they want to?

 

 

And for what you said about people rerolling to good classes in GW2 being a problem- how so? Look how well that worked for SWTOR- it worked so well it got the population to drop by 25% in a month- that's beneficial to anyone how exactly? And you still have the same thing- pretty much everyone is now a marauder or PT, or an op healer- recent high RWZ ratings showed marauders were more common than DPS of ALL other classes except for PTs combined- that's terrible balancing.

 

Will we see the same problem in GW2? Yes, balance is always tough, it's always an issue- but the more important thing is whether or not we'll see half a year response time to huge balance issues- if they can respond a bit faster than that at least the game will be better than SWTOR.

Edited July 31, 2012 by fungihoujo

[mangarrage]

The "art" of GW2 is exactly what will keep alot of people from playing it.

 

In GW2 you can essentially be:

 

a tree

a lizard

a mouse

a dog

a cat

 

Sounds dumb as hell to me. Have fun with your stupid game that will attract the furries off the internet like noobs to the star wars forums qq'ing about balance

 

I kinda more or less see Silvari as a tree, Asura as a mouse, and maybe stretching Charr can be a dog, but what is the lizard and a cat?

May want to take 20seconds or go to go to the website and look at the classes

 

And even if you above falsehood was correct, do you honestly think that having the options of being a human, a human with a little metal on the face, a blue human, a green human, a red human, a human with a veil, or a grey human is better options?

kind of amusing

[Jadescythe]

The only one of those issues I have is the occasional ops frame absence. As to the others, I could say that your system or personal connection must be at fault. Is that necessarily true? Well, no, but its the same defense someone made of GW2 a few posts up when another member indicated that GW2 was laggy during play.

 

Warzones have significant lag spikes, especially VS. This isn't an individual problem, it happens to everyone in my vent while grouped. I have not heard of people getting kicked nearly as often, but if the engine is having a hard time with keeping a warzone going, why would I expect open world PVP to work again?

 

First, think of how good Sentinels and Guardians are now. Now, some may claim they're OP and others assert that they're not, but that's an issue for another day. What matters is that we can all agree they're good and classes that you'd want in your team makeup. Imagine if, at the time of release when these classes were considered garbage, the majority of those who had rolled one abandoned them and moved onto other classes. Had that happened, it would be the case that either we would never have discovered the tremendous power and utility of these classes, or that it would have taken a considerably longer time, throwing an entire range of other balance issues into a very different place from where they are today as well. This is the kind of scenario that could happen in a game with a system like GW2.

 

Look at, if you would be familiar with the example, the case of Protoss in StarCraft 2. Upon the game's release, it was considered to be a severely underpowered race, though there were also many elements of it which were unexplored. Months and months and months later, players began to discover just how powerful certain units and mechanics were, bringing the race into a very strong position. In a game like GW2 where there is little incentive not to simply roll the class perceived as the strongest or best and jump right in, we will see similar situations - months and months of class A, B, and/or C being underused instead of those who picked them at first figuring them out and showing us how they can be used well.

 

It makes for a stagnant game, and the potential for large balancing issues over time. Heck, look at the way we are allll of a sudden starting to see nothing but sentinels and vanguards in every warzone, and think about how bad this is for the game and the quality of the PvP. GW2 caters perfectly to this kind of situation. I can virtually guarantee that we will see stretches where the sPvP and WvW is filled with nothing but Mesmers, stretches of Elementalists, stretches where you never, ever see a Ranger but see Engineers at every turn. It's going to be stupid.

 

Second, I am kindof bummed about how my experience is going to be in GW2. I am a player who first rolled a Sorceror, and enjoyed it, but back then I didn't really understand this game at all. I rolled a BH with friends, and did that for a while. I eventually wanted to try Republic so I made a Shadow, and in that period of time started to come to really understand the game, the class, and PvP. Eventually I wanted a Scoundrel, so I made one, and then a Guardian, and a Slinger, and so on. Each one, I leveled entirely legitimately (no botting or anything else), and while I skipped the repetitive planet cutscenes for each toon, I always watched the class stuff. I got to understand how to PvP with each class in the lowbie warzones and had a lot of fun doing so. Each one of these that I enjoyed enough to get to 50, I did, and I began to earn the gear for that toon.

 

Now when I play a given one of these characters on a given day, there's something special about it. All of that work I put into it and all of the "getting to know" the character I did in leveling mean something to me. I am happier to play the class because of all I put into it. There's a connection there. This will be severely missed when my toons are just random "shells" that I made 5 minutes ago and never had to get to "know," never had to gear, just never had to really put any work into. It will honestly take a HUGE part of my enjoyment away from playing them, and I think that - whether they realize it or not - this will be true for many, many people.

 

I assume you know all of what I am about to say based on the research you have been doing, but I suppose it's worth bringing up anyway based on the points you have made. First, each character gets their own personal story that will function like class quests, albeit not with all of the bells and whistles, but still with voice acting and it actually changes based on decisions that you make. Whether or not this works significantly is yet to be seen, but you could certainly level characters of each race with different professions and get the same type of experience you have here.

 

I have the same hesitation as you in regards to FOTM classes being rolled by everyone, but the more I think about it, the less I believe it will be a problem (also note that it is a problem in SWTOR even with a serious gear grind). sPVP will be the only environment in which everyone is given everything (level 80 with all abilities, same gear, etc), so players will still level the characters they want without having to worry about being a DPS merc in sPVP. WvWvW is just going to be for enjoyment and bragging rights, I don't think class balance will really matter to people in this type of environment (especially since any level can enter and get a lowbie warzone style bolster to compete).

 

Essentially, they are trying to make sPVP easier to compete in and allow you to take on a variety of roles. Now it doesn't matter if your mara isn't logged in tonight, someone else can log onto theirs and fill that role. Or if you need a break from playing a support role sorc, you can roll a DPS machine in a PT. Don't get me wrong, I have been a proponent of expertise in this game because it is necessary to keep PVE and PVP separate and you can't eff over everyone who already spent all that time getting WH gear. GW2 took that need out of the equation by giving everyone the same gear at the start. We'll have to see if players enjoy this or not (I've always liked being able to choose what stats I want to stack) when the game comes out, but there are plenty of other options in the game to grind for and keep you busy.

[Nyaara]

Cya in a few months when ArenaNet and GW2 will be garbage by the same blablabla people.

 

Some humans will never learn. Thats a fact.

[Jadescythe]

Cya in a few months when ArenaNet and GW2 will be garbage by the same blablabla people.

 

Some humans will never learn. Thats a fact.

 

I don't understand why everyone like this has the GW2 or SWTOR mindset. Is there something preventing me from playing both? Also, when did we start talking about how bad SWTOR is here? GW2 is a different game, it has a different feel, and it has different mechanics. That doesn't mean anyone thinks SWTOR is garbage, it just means things can be done multiple ways. Both games will have their positives and their negatives, but as long as they are keeping me entertained I will keep playing. Could GW2 be the death of SWTOR PVP? I hope not, but it's possible any new game could drag enough people away to kill it. I just wouldn't expect a lot of people queuing on SWTOR for about a week after 8/25.

[xxIncubixx]

These threads are pointless for a few reasons

 

1 u will just be flamed by the fanboys of bioware, even tho u bring up valid points .

 

2. As far as pvp is concerned this game is a mess. Only the Fotm people are happy atm

 

3. Bioware is so slow to change anything even if it is blatantly out of wack .

 

4. I think the solution is to nerf operatives again. they are much more OP than Ptechs ...

 

lol GW2 is the same already on beta... necros and rangers ftw!

[Katsuragisama]

Cya in a few months when ArenaNet and GW2 will be garbage by the same blablabla people.

 

Some humans will never learn. Thats a fact.

 

Granted some people are going to think it sucks. Some people are too conditioned to enjoying gear grind for stats instead of playing the game for fun, so they dont fall behind. I came across a video of someone playing the Mesmer class a couple days ago. Watching them click skills during PvP, I could only stand to watch so much. The bads who are used to standing in one place and clicking skills will come back to TOR. But I think for the most part, many of the PvP base in this game will be gone.

 

That, and if you look around, many people are concerned with bugs (that have existed since launch), transfers, their server being rebooted every 5 seconds cause chat crashed, etc, etc. All the while BioWare is silent. Even if they dont goto GW2, customer service fail is just gonna push more people away from this game.

[mangarrage]

Cya in a few months when ArenaNet and GW2 will be garbage by the same blablabla people.

 

Some humans will never learn. Thats a fact.

 

You are certainly not out of the realm of possibility, being that games over the last 5 years at least have been a disappointment, but I can personally say for me, I will not be back.

I always look forward not backwards. GW2 isn't the second coming by any stretch. And no one really knows how it will be in 3 mos or 6mos, but we do know what this game is after 6mo and we do know they havent announced anything that can keep me.

I do find it rather amusing that people think they will get alot of people back. How many people went back to warhammer or rift, AoC or Vanguard.

There are alot of games on the horizon for many types of players, trying out something new is always preferable to paying for failure

[xxIncubixx]

its free... free = simply garbage lol always has been and always will be, and lets be honest here, the cash shop isnt controlled by Arena net, its controlled by NCsoft period. Which means they want to make money. So they will add stuff later on that will make people use it, thats the shareholders aim. They dont care if it is balanced or if itsnt balance all they want is money simple as that.

 

Right now of couse the cash shop is more or less not that great. why? because well if it had already lets say... supah healing pots or something like that many people wouldnt even touch the game.

 

I give... 2 to 3 weeks for people to get bored of Guild wars 2, only some Hardcore players will stay there, and some random casuals that no one cares about.

[Necrosov]

Hater's always gonna hate.

[Katsuragisama]

its free... free = simply garbage lol always has been and always will be, and lets be honest here, the cash shop isnt controlled by Arena net, its controlled by NCsoft period. Which means they want to make money. So they will add stuff later on that will make people use it, thats the shareholders aim. They dont care if it is balanced or if itsnt balance all they want is money simple as that.

 

Right now of couse the cash shop is more or less not that great. why? because well if it had already lets say... supah healing pots or something like that many people wouldnt even touch the game.

 

I give... 2 to 3 weeks for people to get bored of Guild wars 2, only some Hardcore players will stay there, and some random casuals that no one cares about.

 

I simply love this mindset of B2P/F2P == Garbage. Really, unless you've actually played a game, or even give it a chance, you might as well stay quiet. Or bash it, while you keep throwing money at BioWare hoping that they fix the bugs and add content Soon™, just because you're throwing $15/mo at them.

 

That said, I think mangarrage made quite a few points you could try taking to mind.

 

There are alot of games on the horizon for many types of players, trying out something new is always preferable to paying for failure

 

Quoted for truth, and win!

Edited July 31, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Necrosov]

oops didnt mean to repost Edited July 31, 2012 by Necrosov
Didnt mean to post again

[Skolops]

Yet, there is hundreds of hours of pvp in order to get even a moderate selection of cosmetic items- and far more than there would be to get WH gear to max out what's currently available.

 

And there's also 80 levels of pve progression if you want to level- as in SWTOR levelling off pvp is not very practical you likely did your levelling in pve- well, there's a lot of pve there.

 

Difference is- you do not HAVE to if you do not WANT to- so it all comes down to a simple- do you actually enjoy doing that grind, taking the time to earn something, or are you only doing it because you have no choice if you want to play the game? If you honestly like the grind as you say- then it is still there, it just won't give you a huge advantage over other players- so if you want to beat someone in pvp who you can't, your choice isn't to spend five times as long as they do playing, your choice is to get better.

 

And I don't see how making a character in five minutes is an issue for you- since you won't do that for new FOTM classes. If you are able to staunchly defend the balance in this game as you do, and say only bad players are saying there is imbalance as you are- then there's no imbalance out there that would be able to phase you. If you want to keep your character and keep building it up, do so- if you want to reroll every time there's a FOTM, you can do that too- what is your problem with everyone having the option to enjoy what they want in the game? Are you really that desperate to have everyone using an outdated and widely hated grind progression system that you can't stand it when some people get to play as they want to?

 

 

And for what you said about people rerolling to good classes in GW2 being a problem- how so? Look how well that worked for SWTOR- it worked so well it got the population to drop by 25% in a month- that's beneficial to anyone how exactly? And you still have the same thing- pretty much everyone is now a marauder or PT, or an op healer- recent high RWZ ratings showed marauders were more common than DPS of ALL other classes except for PTs combined- that's terrible balancing.

 

Will we see the same problem in GW2? Yes, balance is always tough, it's always an issue- but the more important thing is whether or not we'll see half a year response time to huge balance issues- if they can respond a bit faster than that at least the game will be better than SWTOR.

 

The problem is that when making a new level 80 toon takes 5 minutes, they would have to produce balance patches on a continuum to keep up with the FOTM rolling. There will still be teams made up of all or mostly FOTM, but instead of flavor of the month, it will be flavor of the minute.

 

As for the connection to the character, I will likely enjoy leveling the character, that much is true. The problem is that once you enter the Mists "lobby" area, whatever your character was is replaced by this faceless shell of a character, with gear etc. that is ultimately entirely disconnected from the time you've put into that character, whether it be 5 minutes or 500 hours. On top of that, you don't even get to appreciate your look, as its replaced by ugly cartoonish red and blue shading.

[Astarica]

I simply love this mindset of B2P/F2P == Garbage. Really, unless you've actually played a game, or even give it a chance, you might as well stay quiet. Or bash it, while you keep throwing money at BioWare hoping that they fix the bugs and add content Soon™, just because you're throwing $15/mo at them.

 

That said, I think mangarrage made quite a few points you could try taking to mind.

 

 

 

Quoted for truth, and win!

 

Well there are two issues people get confused when it comes to MMORPGs.

 

1. Although MMORPGs are very expensive, usually it's expensive because they spent money on the wrong things.

2. Even as expensive as MMORPGs are, they make even more money than they cost or people wouldn't continue to make new ones and keep stuff with 2 servers running.

 

Let's say WoW takes $500 million to make (it did not). You can see from Blizzard's financial statement that it makes about $1 billion per year for quite a few years during its prime (that's what the "MMORPG" entry is). Even if $500 million an year is spent on maintaining WoW, that means it recovered its budget of $500 million after one year in its prime and from then on it's making $500 million per year. That money sure isn't going back to WoW's development.

 

You usually hear something like $50-$100 millon quoted as the budget for a major MMORPG title. While that's a large chunk of investment, 1 million subscribers at $15/month for 1 year is $180 million and that doesn't include the box sales either. Sure there's infrastrcuture and whatever but it just doesn't cost that much money to provide that. The $15/month is basically collusion amongst all game companies and part of it is because people are stupid. Let's say someone loan me $100 million and I made the most awesome MMORPG ever after 5 years, and it's going to be a sub-based game. If I decided that to give back something to the community and charge $5/month, the game is probably going to flop because everyone will say, "This game must suck since they're going cheap". So I should charge the standard $15/month instead. Really we only have our stupidity to blame here. You can have a perfectly good sub-based game at $5 a month or even $1 a month but everyone who complains about $15/month too much will just say, 'this game is charging $1/month so it must suck', which is why no one does that.

[Necrosov]

Ahh theorycrafting is so FUN! Sounds to me like you just want to hate the game no matter what.

[Skolops]

Warzones have significant lag spikes, especially VS. This isn't an individual problem, it happens to everyone in my vent while grouped. I have not heard of people getting kicked nearly as often, but if the engine is having a hard time with keeping a warzone going, why would I expect open world PVP to work again?

 

 

 

I assume you know all of what I am about to say based on the research you have been doing, but I suppose it's worth bringing up anyway based on the points you have made. First, each character gets their own personal story that will function like class quests, albeit not with all of the bells and whistles, but still with voice acting and it actually changes based on decisions that you make. Whether or not this works significantly is yet to be seen, but you could certainly level characters of each race with different professions and get the same type of experience you have here.

 

I have the same hesitation as you in regards to FOTM classes being rolled by everyone, but the more I think about it, the less I believe it will be a problem (also note that it is a problem in SWTOR even with a serious gear grind). sPVP will be the only environment in which everyone is given everything (level 80 with all abilities, same gear, etc), so players will still level the characters they want without having to worry about being a DPS merc in sPVP. WvWvW is just going to be for enjoyment and bragging rights, I don't think class balance will really matter to people in this type of environment (especially since any level can enter and get a lowbie warzone style bolster to compete).

 

Essentially, they are trying to make sPVP easier to compete in and allow you to take on a variety of roles. Now it doesn't matter if your mara isn't logged in tonight, someone else can log onto theirs and fill that role. Or if you need a break from playing a support role sorc, you can roll a DPS machine in a PT. Don't get me wrong, I have been a proponent of expertise in this game because it is necessary to keep PVE and PVP separate and you can't eff over everyone who already spent all that time getting WH gear. GW2 took that need out of the equation by giving everyone the same gear at the start. We'll have to see if players enjoy this or not (I've always liked being able to choose what stats I want to stack) when the game comes out, but there are plenty of other options in the game to grind for and keep you busy.

 

Well, don't worry about stat stacking. As I understand it, you will be able to essentially min/max your gear, at least to some degree, choose what are basically set bonuses, etc. As a person who LOVES to min max his gear and to try different specs constantly to the degree that I'm broke, I am looking forward to how GW2 allows this more readily. At the same time, I'm somewhat disappointed in their talent tree equivalent, as it seems more limited than SWtOR's is. Now I know others will come in and say it actually provides more choices and variety, but I just don't see it this way when I look at how it works.

 

As for the "connection" to the character, the problem is not so much that there will be no personal story or leveling experience or whatnot, as there will be. The problem I have is that all of that is very disconnected from the sPvP, and in at least two ways. First, if you want to simply create a new toon an rush him straight into the sPvP you can, meaning that you skip all of that leveling stuff, at least at first. Now in SWtOR, I could be leveling while participating in lowbie WZs so that by the time I hit max level, I had gotten to know my toon through all of that. The lowbie WZs are not the same as the 50s, which simply feel more "final," or something in any case. In GW2, there isn't that option. Your level 15 goes straight into the big league, level 80 PvP. It would be like if my level 23 sage could be bolstered in gear and talents to enter a levl 50 warzone - I wouldn't really want it. I'd feel as if I'd missed an experience in the lowbies.

 

Second, even if I've got a character I've leveled all the way to 80 and put all kinds of time into, when I enter that PvP lobby, he changes. His clothes change, etc. He just won't feel like the same person, because of how radically separate they are keeping these two aspects of the game.

[Skolops]

Granted some people are going to think it sucks. Some people are too conditioned to enjoying gear grind for stats instead of playing the game for fun, so they dont fall behind. I came across a video of someone playing the Mesmer class a couple days ago. Watching them click skills during PvP, I could only stand to watch so much. The bads who are used to standing in one place and clicking skills will come back to TOR. But I think for the most part, many of the PvP base in this game will be gone.

 

That, and if you look around, many people are concerned with bugs (that have existed since launch), transfers, their server being rebooted every 5 seconds cause chat crashed, etc, etc. All the while BioWare is silent. Even if they dont goto GW2, customer service fail is just gonna push more people away from this game.

 

If there are really bads like this in TOR (and I've seen them, so there are at least some), then they're only allowed to be bads because of other bads not kicking their butts for this stuff.

 

In any case, I think everyone is going to be very dissapointed and frustrated by how many awful, awful players are polluting the sPvP in GW2 - not to mention how many absolute trolls work very hard to ruin the WvW.

[kcol]

Even if they dont goto GW2, customer service fail is just gonna push more people away from this game.

 

Agreed with this one point over all else stated in this thread. CS in this game has been by far, the single most unimpressive experience I have had in an MMO. From day one it has sucked. The total lack of an ability to actually "speak" to someone in game or out of game is inexcusable and screams to me "We want your money, don't care about you or your problems with our product".

[BARSAL]

A little late to the party but the OP brings up very good points without being a GW2 spokesman. To all the haters what he is saying is a lot of the pvp problems can be solved in a reasonable amount of time but what exactly are they doing right now? This is probably exactly why rateds took so long to release however, because they knew their class balance is terribad.