Expertise cap?

[krarom]

Hi was wondering if there is a expertise cap for a dps sorcerer? I have 1200exp mentioned but not sure if accurate, or is it always better to stack expertise (if the ratio is right for instanse the power crystal-exp crystal).

 

Best regards

krarom

[Skolops]

Hi was wondering if there is a expertise cap for a dps sorcerer? I have 1200exp mentioned but not sure if accurate, or is it always better to stack expertise (if the ratio is right for instanse the power crystal-exp crystal).

 

Best regards

krarom

 

Ok, here are the numbers with the current post 1.2 formulas. I have a mathematics degree and I have run them very thoroughly so trust me this is how it works. All of the numbers were run considering an opponent with full War Hero gear levels of expertise Make sure you read it ALL though before, because it isn't just a cut and dry easy answer.

 

For pure DPS, it works this way:

 

> ~700 expertise, power gives you more DPS point for point than expertise.

 

> ~1050 expertise, Main stat gives you more DPS point for point than expertise

 

This is true no matter how much expertise your opponent has. Even if the opponent still had 50,000 expertise, it still doesn't make a difference.

 

However, keep in mind that what you're gaining in DPS, you're giving up in survivability. The question is how much of a tradeoff you're willing to make for your prefernces, playstyle, class, and role.

 

For example, as an Infiltration Shadow one might be very willing to sacrifice all kinds of survivability because you are going to die pretty fast anyways and you're role is to do as much damage as you can first. As a Guardian tank spec, you're going to be a lot more concerned with having more expertise.

 

The question then is how much survivability do you sacrifice?

 

Well for starters, you should never go with the power number. Stacking onloy 700 expertise would be an absolutely idiotic idea and get you insta-killed.

 

What about the 1050 number, though? Well, once you hit 1050 it works basically 1 to 1 in terms of DPS gained and survivability lost. In other words, if you sacrifice enough expertise to gain an extra 60 damage per hit of a given strength, you are also taking that same amount of extra damage from an opponent giving you a hit of that value.

 

For example, if you sacrifice some expertise and as a result a 2000 damage hit from you will hit for 2060, that means that any 2000 hits from opponents in WH gear will also hit you for 2060, more or less.

 

So with these facts, it really comes down to what you think will work best for you.

[Daikeru]

Snip

 

Why is there a Power limit? o.O Expertise is only supposed to replace the main stat and endurance. Power works like critical, surge, etc you can build them alongside stats.

[Asphen]

Why is there a Power limit? o.O Expertise is only supposed to replace the main stat and endurance. Power works like critical, surge, etc you can build them alongside stats.

 

lol

 

 

This has to also be 'that guy' that's always yelling what to do in ops chat, while score 53k damage for the entire wz, with 9 deaths.

[Daikeru]

lol

 

 

This has to also be 'that guy' that's always yelling what to do in ops chat, while score 53k damage for the entire wz, with 9 deaths.

 

Are you referring to me or the guy that I replied to? That doesn't answer my question either So if you would please be so kind? (^_^)

[Ghostuka]

For pure DPS, it works this way:

 

> ~700 expertise, power gives you more DPS point for point than expertise.

 

> ~1050 expertise, Main stat gives you more DPS point for point than expertise

 

This is true no matter how much expertise your opponent has. Even if the opponent still had 50,000 expertise, it still doesn't make a difference.

 

Okay, I have not really run the numbers but this does not seem right to me. For once, expertise gives you % damage boost, whereas power and main stat give you numerical increase. Expertise vs Power/Main stat should not be comparable, no?

[Funick]

Okay, I have not really run the numbers but this does not seem right to me. For once, expertise gives you % damage boost, whereas power and main stat give you numerical increase. Expertise vs Power/Main stat should not be comparable, no?

 

well technically yes you are correct, expertise multiplies the linear boosts from power/main stat so comparing them in a vacuum doesn't work, I think he was simply ballparking with reasonable amounts of power/main stat and ignoring the complications of crit chance increase from main stat.

 

Can think of damage premitigation as

(expertise multiplier)*(crit/surge multiplier)*[(ability scaler)*(bonus damage) + (base damage)]

 

 

expertise multiplier is simply 1 + expertise %

crit/surge multiplier is simply 1+critchance%*surge%

ability scaler is the linear relation between bonus damage and tool tip damage of your ability.

bonus damage is primary/force/tech depending on ability. If dual wielding also have a .3*secondary that gets added in

base damage is base damage depending on ability.

 

main stat effects both bonus damage and crit chance%

power only effects bonus damage

expertise only effects expertise%

 

so yeah its not simply a question of DR for choosing stats, its also an issue of them multiplying each other. regardless main point is that for pure dps an otherwise full WH should definitely get orange belt/bracers with 61 pve armorings and power crystals possibly BH offhand although you are sacrificing survivability.

[netskink]

I have one toon with full wh and another with 1300+ expertise. The other two are 1250+ expertise.

 

Say what you will, but every bit of expertise I get buffs my toons.

 

My understanding is that when two toons enter combat, the expertise for attack bonus is compared against the expertise dmg reduction of the opponent. The difference is the dmg multiplier. The more you have the better. Its that simple.

 

Also, as a healer on a different toon. I'm better off using my weak dps to kill an opponent that heal my teammate if the opponent has greater expertise than my teammate.

[Skolops]

OOk, so first of all, I NEVER said there's a power limit. Re-read my post perhaps, as I think you misunderstood something. Power scales linearly from zero to infinity.

 

Now as to experrise being a percentage multiplier, this is exactly correct. The thing is, precisely because of this there is a balance between increasing the multiplier and increasing the base to be multiplied. For example, an expertise boost of 25% with a base of 800 dmg will be more than a 35% multiplier on a 600 base.

 

Now the confusion comes in because when 1.2 came out, some people got the idea that expertise is linear now with no diminishing returns, which is inaccurate. Its FAR more linear than it was pre-1.2, but it still does start to flatten out little by little over time. The mathematical question is when, if ever, does the linear rate of power and mainstat catch up?

 

The issue of critic as raised by another poster is not relevant to this question, either. It IS a valid question when balancing power and mainstat, but expertise will always work off of the end result of these two stats - a higher critic chance wont make your expertise bonus more or less important; they're two entirely different steps in the process.

 

Now a little basic algebra shows that for Dps, after 700 expertise the rate that power increases the overall dmg * expertise bonus formula outpaces additional expertise, and after 1050ish expertise the mainstat adds more to the final result.

[Tragamite]

No there is NO cap on expertise except to which your gear has.

 

What people are saying here is on the return for having expertise. Expertise gives you a bonus to damage, healing and defence ONLY for PvP. So when facing an opponent player who has the exact ammount of epertise you have your bonus is negated by their defense as is their damage negated by your defense.

 

At that point the combat then takes your base stats against their base stats. Now when your expertise is higher then the enemy player you are facing your defense reduces more damage and your damage deals more through their defense. HOWEVER, it is here that you want to look at damage vs survivability. Higher expertise vs lower expertise is only a slight improvement in damage vs better improvement in survivability.

 

So if you want to deal raw damage then expertise is not your primary stat even for PvP. Tanks need expertise and defense while healers need expertise and base stat. Damage you can play with more than the other 2 play types.

 

It is not "bad" for you to max out expertise as when you go against someone with none you will DESTROY them but if your looking for rated you will really need to consider survivabilty vs damage!

[kitsinni]

As I understand expertise, if you have 1200 and I have 1300 that is the same as you having 0 and me having 100, they cancel eachother out. Even that will give me close to 2% more damage on every attack I do against you and you will do 1.5% or something close to that less damage to me on every attack.

 

So if you have 700 and I have 1300, that power is not going to make up for it. I am going to be doing almost 10% increased damage against you while you are doing less damage to me. 500 power is not going to give you enough bonus damage to make up for me doing 10%ish more damage to you, while you do less damage to me.

 

This doesn't even begin to address the situation when multiple people are attacking you, as the damage reduction is going to be to al of them at a % base.

[Skolops]

Actually Tragamite there is a cap, its just very high. The formula has a peak limit. I don't remember what it is, but I believe it may be 50%. You're correct though that, for what is accessible now, the gear available cant begin to approach this value.

 

Id also agree about the tank vs Dps distinction. My thinking has been to encourage pure dpsers to feel comfortable maxing at 1150 exlertise or to get more if they prefer, and for tanks to get at least 1250 before sacrificing any.

[Skolops]

As I understand expertise, if you have 1200 and I have 1300 that is the same as you having 0 and me having 100, they cancel eachother out. Even that will give me close to 2% more damage on every attack I do against you and you will do 1.5% or something close to that less damage to me on every attack.

 

So if you have 700 and I have 1300, that power is not going to make up for it. I am going to be doing almost 10% increased damage against you while you are doing less damage to me. 500 power is not going to give you enough bonus damage to make up for me doing 10%ish more damage to you, while you do less damage to me.

 

This doesn't even begin to address the situation when multiple people are attacking you, as the damage reduction is going to be to al of them at a % base.

 

I tested it against theotetical opponents of 1100 (BMish), 1284 (most single wielding full WH), and even 50,000 expertise. Even if the opponent has 50,000 expertise, once you have 700 a single point of power always gives more Dps than of expertise.

 

Its because that added power - which is strong in itself - is being multiplied by the already existing boost from the 700 e pertise and at this point the combination of what dmg boost you alresdy have and the added flat dmg from power outpaces increasing the multiplier while keeping the base lesser.

[islander]

As I understand expertise, if you have 1200 and I have 1300 that is the same as you having 0 and me having 100, they cancel eachother out. Even that will give me close to 2% more damage on every attack I do against you and you will do 1.5% or something close to that less damage to me on every attack.

 

So if you have 700 and I have 1300, that power is not going to make up for it. I am going to be doing almost 10% increased damage against you while you are doing less damage to me. 500 power is not going to give you enough bonus damage to make up for me doing 10%ish more damage to you, while you do less damage to me.

 

This doesn't even begin to address the situation when multiple people are attacking you, as the damage reduction is going to be to al of them at a % base.

 

This is my own thinking. I can't imagine ever not using anything but expertise. Dead DPS is zero DPS.

[Skolops]

You are correct, however, that the survivability of only 700 expertise would be abysmal and outweigh any Dps gains. Ultimately this isn't a real concern, as there's no way to cut expertise so low to gain straight power.

[kitsinni]

You are correct, however, that the survivability of only 700 expertise would be abysmal and outweigh any Dps gains. Ultimately this isn't a real concern, as there's no way to cut expertise so low to gain straight power.

 

When you are calculating your DPS gain from power over expertise after 700 are you calculating in the 7% or so damage reduction you will face against a 1300+ expertise opponent?

[kitsinni]

Your expertise numbers for full WH are off you are going to be above 1320 even without dual wield. I think you get to 1322 or 1323 if I remember correctly and 1360 with DW.

[kitsinni]

Its because that added power - which is strong in itself - is being multiplied by the already existing boost from the 700 e pertise and at this point the combination of what dmg boost you alresdy have and the added flat dmg from power outpaces increasing the multiplier while keeping the base lesser.

 

I don't think this is correct either. If you are at 700 expertise facing me with 1300 then your bonus damage is 0% and mine is like 10%. This would only be correct if you were facing someone with 0 expertise.You also have to calculate in a significant amount of damage reduction against me.

[vimm]

lol

 

 

This has to also be 'that guy' that's always yelling what to do in ops chat, while score 53k damage for the entire wz, with 9 deaths.

 

Where did this come from?

[SweetOldBob]

Hi was wondering if there is a expertise cap for a dps sorcerer? I have 1200exp mentioned but not sure if accurate, or is it always better to stack expertise (if the ratio is right for instanse the power crystal-exp crystal).

 

Here's a graph that a fellow put together to compare expertise in 1.15 and 1.2: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282.

 

At least in 1.2, the graph of damage increase as expertise increases is pretty close to linear. I.e, ain't even much of a soft cap in a reasonable range of expertise ( up to 2500, maybe beyond).

 

On a side note, I have read, although can't verify, that you are better off stacking your character's main stat (strength, aim, whatever) rather than power.

[Skolops]

I don't think this is correct either. If you are at 700 expertise facing me with 1300 then your bonus damage is 0% and mine is like 10%. This would only be correct if you were facing someone with 0 expertise.You also have to calculate in a significant amount of damage reduction against me.

 

Again, I used a. Opponent of up to 50,000 expertise. After 700, it didn't matter even up to 50k.

 

As for wy numbers, I got it by totalling every piece of gear my shadow could get at the time - just after 1.2. Whether it should 1200 or 1300 or 1400 though, it doesn't matter. I tested opponent sup to 50k expertise.

[Skolops]

Here's a graph that a fellow put together to compare expertise in 1.15 and 1.2: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282.

 

At least in 1.2, the graph of damage increase as expertise increases is pretty close to linear. I.e, ain't even much of a soft cap in a reasonable range of expertise ( up to 2500, maybe beyond).

 

On a side note, I have read, although can't verify, that you are better off stacking your character's main stat (strength, aim, whatever) rather than power.

 

Its class spec and gear strategy specific. Power gives significantly more dmg than mainstat, but mainstat gives a tiny bit of crit. Classes with autocrit rotations (smash jugg for instance) would almost gladly have zero mainstat if they could have it all in power. Classes using dots want more mainstat because of the need for crits in their specs. Ultimately its trying to balance, but because of how little crit mainstat really adds, power is better for most specs than mainstat.

[Skolops]

I can provide some specific examples for the curious when I get home.

[kitsinni]

Again, I used a. Opponent of up to 50,000 expertise. After 700, it didn't matter even up to 50k.

 

As for wy numbers, I got it by totalling every piece of gear my shadow could get at the time - just after 1.2. Whether it should 1200 or 1300 or 1400 though, it doesn't matter. I tested opponent sup to 50k expertise.

 

I'm confused because you said earlier that the reason the power was better was because of the experise multiplier. If someone with 700 expertise was against an opponent of more than 700 expertise their multiplier would go away. If I understand the mechanics correctly someone with 700 expertise aginst 1300 would calculate their damage with no multiplyer from expertise and would have to subtract the 500 expertise worth of damage absorption from the other person. So you would have to run the calculations as someone with 0 expertise but higher power against someone with 500 expertise and lower power. Maybe that is how you did it and I just read it wrong.

 

So to clarify I'm saying it would not be Player A with more power and the 700 expertise multiplyer vs. Player B with 1300 expertise multiplyer and it would become Player A with more power and 0 expertise vs. Player B with 500 expertise multiplyer and damage reduction.

 

Again this could be how you did it and I just read it wrong. Not trying to pick on you this stuff interests me.

[Skolops]

Kitsinni the way you're describing it isn't exactly how the math works in practice if I am correct. I'm just thinking on the fly so ill write a more in depth reply when I get home to my spreadsheet.