And some people try to claim Powertechs are fine

[KBSIP]

I'm not going to respond to this, because every single item you listed has been answered or explicitly addressed in this thread - which you have now demonstrated you have not read - in various degrees of detail. If you are genuinely interested in having a serious discussion about this, please read the thread and then respond again.

 

its all information that should have been edited into your first post. you're a failure at managing your own discussion, and you're a failure at your class.

[Gidoru]

I'm not going to respond to this, because every single item you listed has been answered or explicitly addressed in this thread - which you have now demonstrated you have not read - in various degrees of detail. If you are genuinely interested in having a serious discussion about this, please read the thread and then respond again.

 

Honestly making PTs are OP threads is a waste of time. Many have been made and the outcome is always the same; you will get a stream of mediocre players coming into your thread defending PTs to their dying breath because playing an overpowered class allows them to actually kill people in PvP.

 

Every decent player already knows Powertechs are overpowered.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gidoru

[KBSIP]

Honestly making PT threads are OP threads is a waste of time. Many have been made and the outcome is the same. You will get nothing but a stream of mediocre players coming into your thread defending PTs to their dying breath.

 

 

Every decent player already knows Powertechs are overpowered.

 

a gunslinger complaining about a powertech is strictly a player skill issue. say what you will about powertechs, marauders, whatever. the sniper/GS is the HARD counter to PT's in the pyro spec, especially caught in the open without LoS at their disposal. the problem with this thread is that its using an anecdote of a gunslinger playing poorly and engaging two burster DPS that out geared him/her to try and solo cap a node at the last minute. its about as relevant to discussions of class balance as me running through my history of duels.

[Skolops]

a gunslinger complaining about a powertech is strictly a player skill issue. say what you will about powertechs, marauders, whatever. the sniper/GS is the HARD counter to PT's in the pyro spec, especially caught in the open without LoS at their disposal. the problem with this thread is that its using an anecdote of a gunslinger playing poorly and engaging two burster DPS that out geared him/her to try and solo cap a node at the last minute. its about as relevant to discussions of class balance as me running through my history of duels.

 

You're missing the entire point of this thread, which I have stated multiple times. The point is not that 2 Powertechs beat a gunslinger when the Gunslinger engaged them in non- ideal circumstances. The point is that even with 4 defensive cooldowns the pyrotech burst was still so strong that 2 of them were able to outright kill a player.

[iNeXxS]

You're missing the entire point of this thread, which I have stated multiple times. The point is not that 2 Powertechs beat a gunslinger when the Gunslinger engaged them in non- ideal circumstances. The point is that even with 4 defensive cooldowns the pyrotech burst was still so strong that 2 of them were able to outright kill a player.

 

An under geared player shouldn't be able to 2v1 a couple of geared players, no matter the classes.

[Gidoru]

a gunslinger complaining about a powertech is strictly a player skill issue. say what you will about powertechs, marauders, whatever. the sniper/GS is the HARD counter to PT's in the pyro spec, especially caught in the open without LoS at their disposal. the problem with this thread is that its using an anecdote of a gunslinger playing poorly and engaging two burster DPS that out geared him/her to try and solo cap a node at the last minute. its about as relevant to discussions of class balance as me running through my history of duels.

 

Actually I think it is quite relevant. The problem is most of you are misunderstanding the point the op is trying to make.

 

He is not saying that he attacked 2 Powertechs and expected to win therefore Powertechs are overpowered.

 

What he is trying to saying is that he attacked 2 Powertechs and died almost instantly. He died much faster than he would have if he had faced any 2 other DPS classes.

 

Even in full WH gear if a single Powertech crits with his 3 ability opening, you've lost basically 40-50% of your HP in about 4 seconds from 30m with all instant cast abilities. Add in a second Powertech and you have someone dying in 4 seconds.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gidoru

[Skolops]

An under geared player shouldn't be able to 2v1 a couple of geared players, no matter the classes.

 

Again, stated multiple times and even very strongly implied in the post you're quoting(!!) - I expected to lose the fight. I took the fight only because there were 20 seconds left in the warzone and I could either spend them fighting or standing there doing nothing. What I did not expect was to have a Battlemaster geared player downed by a single burst by any two players in a world without relics or adrenals.

[KBSIP]

You're missing the entire point of this thread, which I have stated multiple times. The point is not that 2 Powertechs beat a gunslinger when the Gunslinger engaged them in non- ideal circumstances. The point is that even with 4 defensive cooldowns the pyrotech burst was still so strong that 2 of them were able to outright kill a player.

 

you realize they could have popped offensive cooldowns of their own to counter, right? cooldowns tip the balance in 1v1's effectively, in 2v1's cooldowns are generally meaningless if you're against competent players. pop evasion? they'll use tech damage. as an assassin pop force shroud? okay, unloads and rapid shots filler till it falls off.

 

what exactly are you defining as a defensive, as well? your cover? 20% extra defense. nice, but not a life saver.

shield probe? absorbs a paltry amount of damage when set up against a pair of bursters.

entrench/hunker down? CC immunity, no other significant benefit to resisting single target damage.

 

so, really you used ONE significant defensive cooldown (evasion).

 

what went unused; enagaging at max range, rooting, knockbacks, shatter shots, debilitate if they were in melee range.

 

seriously, you're a RANGED dps, and you didn't take advantage of the range part. I don't see why a range should ever survive a 2v1 if they step into melee range, ever. maybe a 1v1 if they're smart with KB/root, 2v1 and its a brain fart.

[Molokia]

If anything they should buff pyro-techs.. I mean here I am in CW, I see grass undefended (or so I think) and I go to take it. Then, two Shadows jump me!! I died, I mean wth! I should no die 2 v 1!! It's not fair, fix this Bioware!

[KBSIP]

Actually I think it is quite relevant. The problem is most of you are misunderstanding the point the op is trying to make.

 

He is not saying that he attacked 2 Powertechs and expected to win therefore Powertechs are overpowered.

 

What he is trying to saying is that he attacked 2 Powertechs and died almost instantly. He died much faster than he would have if he had faced any 2 other DPS classes.

 

Even in full WH gear if a single Powertech crits with his 3 ability opening, you've lost basically 40-50% of your HP in about 4 seconds. Add in a second Powertech and you have someone dying in 4 seconds.

 

 

except that the OP says they popped evasion, which means no railshot. no railshot is a 60% loss on damage for the PT's, and a huge cut to burst. which means the window is much LONGER than the OP admitted initially. this includes the fact that the OP didn't engage fully until AFTER they had been marked with a detonator, which is another knock against them as that is essentially 2 free GCD's, or 3 seconds, in which the OP was simply waiting to take damage.

 

I stand by my statement, put in two infiltration assassins, two DPS operatives, two marauders and the OP would have died just as fast, ESPECIALLY if he gave them the same 3 second grace period he gave to the powertechs.

[iNeXxS]

What he is trying to saying is that he attacked 2 Powertechs and died almost instantly. He died much faster than he would have if he had faced any 2 other DPS classes.

 

Lets see how long a BM geared player of any DPS spec can last against 2 well geared Anni/Combat Marauders, MM Snipers, Smash Juggs, and Concealment Ops.

[Skolops]

you realize they could have popped offensive cooldowns of their own to counter, right? cooldowns tip the balance in 1v1's effectively, in 2v1's cooldowns are generally meaningless if you're against competent players. pop evasion? they'll use tech damage. as an assassin pop force shroud? okay, unloads and rapid shots filler till it falls off.

 

what exactly are you defining as a defensive, as well? your cover? 20% extra defense. nice, but not a life saver.

shield probe? absorbs a paltry amount of damage when set up against a pair of bursters.

entrench/hunker down? CC immunity, no other significant benefit to resisting single target damage.

 

so, really you used ONE significant defensive cooldown (evasion).

 

what went unused; enagaging at max range, rooting, knockbacks, shatter shots, debilitate if they were in melee range.

 

seriously, you're a RANGED dps, and you didn't take advantage of the range part. I don't see why a range should ever survive a 2v1 if they step into melee range, ever. maybe a 1v1 if they're smart with KB/root, 2v1 and its a brain fart.

 

You're once again either lacking in understanding or willingly choosing to misrepresent things. My survival is not at question here. It is simply the utterly silly rapidity with which they killed me that is.

 

Furthermore, I must correct your misunderstandings.

 

I used defense screen, which absorbs far more damage than you may realize. I once had a very good scoundrel healer tell me that he doesn't spec into improving it because it can only absorb something like 900 damage total. I was quite certain he was wrong, so I looked it up, and he was, despite his very high skill level with his class. The amount of damage they can absorb is quite good.

 

I also used Scrambling field, which absorbs a flat 20% of all damage coming in. If you really played a sniper/gunslinger, you would know this.

 

Now, I did not have ballistic dampers, which would absorb another 30% of incoming damage, but given that you have shown you didn't really read the thread I believe you probably did not know that I did not have these.

[Gidoru]

except that the OP says they popped evasion, which means no railshot. no railshot is a 60% loss on damage for the PT's, and a huge cut to burst. which means the window is much LONGER than the OP admitted initially. this includes the fact that the OP didn't engage fully until AFTER they had been marked with a detonator, which is another knock against them as that is essentially 2 free GCD's, or 3 seconds, in which the OP was simply waiting to take damage.

 

Evasion is only 3 seconds. Which honestly is a trival duration.

 

If both PTs opened up with Incendiary Missle, Thermal Detonator, Railshot his Evasion would have expired by the time they got to using Railshot. This is the most common rotation i have personally seen PTs using. I suppose if you really want you can criticize him for not timing his Evasion properly.

 

I stand by my statement, put in two infiltration assassins, two DPS operatives, two marauders and the OP would have died just as fast, ESPECIALLY if he gave them the same 3 second grace period he gave to the powertechs.

Except this isnt true.

It takes a Deception Assassin 2 globals to even begin their burst. During which time they can easily be knocked back and immobilized. Between this and Flashbang + stun, yes the Sniper will die pretty fast, but not in 4 seconds.

The same thing generally applies for the other classes.

 

The primary difference here is that Powertechs do their intial burst from 30m. A Sniper cannot stun or knock them back until they close in, but being as there were 2, he died before that even happened.

 

I do agree 3 seconds is a bit of an exaggeration. Even if only 1 used Incendiary Missle it had to be atleast 4-5 seconds.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gidoru

[Elboc]

By no means do I think powertech's damage is fine, but this testimony is not very convincing. Sorry.

 

This.

[Skolops]

except that the OP says they popped evasion, which means no railshot. no railshot is a 60% loss on damage for the PT's, and a huge cut to burst. which means the window is much LONGER than the OP admitted initially. this includes the fact that the OP didn't engage fully until AFTER they had been marked with a detonator, which is another knock against them as that is essentially 2 free GCD's, or 3 seconds, in which the OP was simply waiting to take damage.

 

I stand by my statement, put in two infiltration assassins, two DPS operatives, two marauders and the OP would have died just as fast, ESPECIALLY if he gave them the same 3 second grace period he gave to the powertechs.

 

I've said multiple times that it's not about the total time I was near them. It's about the burst. Between getting that thermal detonator on me and the actual burst, they landed nothing else on me.

 

So I got detonator on me, then a few seconds of nothing, then the burst, which could have been something as simple as the basic attack proccing a burn into double rail shot.

[KBSIP]

after reading the account of the fight in the middle of the thread the duration is, in fact, grossly exaggerated. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP simply ignored their health while they were being shot, but the OP went through the following actions;

 

1) engaged first PT with a legshot and got tagged with a TD (fight starts, first GCD)

 

2) travel time for GS to get inside the area surrounding turret, pops into cover after seeing second PT, pops into cover and drops 20% DR cooldown, and the root has expired by now (5 seconds unless degaussed or CC breakered)

 

3) flashbang attempt (next GCD, + 1.5 seconds)

 

4) attempted freighter flyby - dead.

 

minimum time of encounter - 6.5 seconds, assuming 0 ability delay, server lag, or reflex lag.

 

potential duration - 7 to 10 seconds.

[Skolops]

Evasion is only 3 seconds. Which honestly is a trival duration.

 

If both PTs opened up with Incendiary Missle, Thermal Detonator, Railshot his Evasion would have expired by the time they got to using Railshot. This is the most common rotation i have personally seen PTs using. I suppose if you really want you can criticize him for not timing his Evasion properly.

 

 

Yes, it's possible that I hit my dodge when I got the detonator on me rather than saving it for the right time. As my Shadow has been my main for a very long time, I'm used to instinctively hitting my resilience at this time, which I have on the same key. I sincerely don't remember and I honestly doubt I remembered when I wrote the original post.

 

Nonetheless, my concern is about the burst capabilities of the Pyrotech, not really what happens if an attack is missed. Yes, certainly if you have your defense chance cooldown up, you can deal with a powertechs initial burst, though of course it can proc so often that this only helps marginally.

 

Rather, my concern is how strong it was through the absorb and 20% damage reduction I had up at the time.

[Skolops]

after reading the account of the fight in the middle of the thread the duration is, in fact, grossly exaggerated. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP simply ignored their health while they were being shot, but the OP went through the following actions;

 

1) engaged first PT with a legshot and got tagged with a TD (fight starts, first GCD)

 

2) travel time for GS to get inside the area surrounding turret, pops into cover after seeing second PT, pops into cover and drops 20% DR cooldown, and the root has expired by now (5 seconds unless degaussed or CC breakered)

 

3) flashbang attempt (next GCD, + 1.5 seconds)

 

4) attempted freighter flyby - dead.

 

minimum time of encounter - 6.5 seconds, assuming 0 ability delay, server lag, or reflex lag.

 

potential duration - 7 to 10 seconds.

 

I've never said otherwise. Yes, the total encounter was quite possibly 7 seconds long. However, there were only 1, 2, or at most 3 GCDs over which time they were actually inflicting damage on me. All those seconds when I was walking from one place to the next and not being shot or damaged in any way? I don't care about that, of course, and it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is what happened as soon as they started actually shooting.

[Skolops]

after reading the account of the fight in the middle of the thread the duration is, in fact, grossly exaggerated. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP simply ignored their health while they were being shot, but the OP went through the following actions;

 

1) engaged first PT with a legshot and got tagged with a TD (fight starts, first GCD)

 

2) travel time for GS to get inside the area surrounding turret, pops into cover after seeing second PT, pops into cover and drops 20% DR cooldown, and the root has expired by now (5 seconds unless degaussed or CC breakered)

 

3) flashbang attempt (next GCD, + 1.5 seconds)

 

4) attempted freighter flyby - dead.

 

minimum time of encounter - 6.5 seconds, assuming 0 ability delay, server lag, or reflex lag.

 

potential duration - 7 to 10 seconds.

 

I've never said otherwise. Yes, the total encounter was quite possibly 7 seconds long. However, there were only 1, 2, or at most 3 GCDs over which time they were actually inflicting damage on me. All those seconds when I was walking from one place to the next and not being shot or damaged in any way? I don't care about that, of course, and it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is what happened as soon as they started actually shooting.

[FourTwent]

I just entered a warzone near the end with my Gunslinger. I found my team losing so I decided to go try to solo a point as it was really all there was left to do. As I approached the point I saw they had 2 powertechs guarding it, so I knew it was not a likely opportunity for success but hey, what else is there to do but give it a go?

 

As soon as I got anywhere near it, one of the powertechs got his thermal detonator on me and the other was running over, so I popped every single defensive cooldown I had - which are off the GCD, btw - and proceded to fire a single instant cast shot before literally dying.

 

That's right, 2 powertechs were able to nuke my 16k HP - not all the way there, by any means, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination, either - in a basically a single GCD.

 

So yes, pay no attention to powertechs. They're completely fine and in no need whatsoever of a nerf.

 

makes you wish you had that operative stabbing you in the back now doesn't it?

[Skolops]

makes you wish you had that operative stabbing you in the back now doesn't it?

 

Not really, not really.

[RangKer]

I just entered a warzone near the end with my Gunslinger. I found my team losing so I decided to go try to solo a point as it was really all there was left to do. As I approached the point I saw they had 2 powertechs guarding it, so I knew it was not a likely opportunity for success but hey, what else is there to do but give it a go?

 

As soon as I got anywhere near it, one of the powertechs got his thermal detonator on me and the other was running over, so I popped every single defensive cooldown I had - which are off the GCD, btw - and proceded to fire a single instant cast shot before literally dying.

 

That's right, 2 powertechs were able to nuke my 16k HP - not all the way there, by any means, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination, either - in a basically a single GCD.

 

So yes, pay no attention to powertechs. They're completely fine and in no need whatsoever of a nerf.

 

Hell on My BH/Merc 28/0/13 + Pocket healer I tend to do great against PTs. Vast majority of the time I get ignored and allowed to turret the poor SoBs in to pile of ash and tears - well when it is Imp vs Imp lol.

Edited July 20, 2012 by RangKer

[Zoiks]

I just entered a warzone near the end with my Gunslinger. I found my team losing so I decided to go try to solo a point as it was really all there was left to do. As I approached the point I saw they had 2 powertechs guarding it, so I knew it was not a likely opportunity for success but hey, what else is there to do but give it a go?

 

As soon as I got anywhere near it, one of the powertechs got his thermal detonator on me and the other was running over, so I popped every single defensive cooldown I had - which are off the GCD, btw - and proceded to fire a single instant cast shot before literally dying.

 

That's right, 2 powertechs were able to nuke my 16k HP - not all the way there, by any means, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination, either - in a basically a single GCD.

 

So yes, pay no attention to powertechs. They're completely fine and in no need whatsoever of a nerf.

 

There is literally no way they could have done that in a single gcd. From what you describe it was a minimum of 2 gcd, and likely your perceptions were incorrect.

 

Thermal detonator can't set up rail shot, so that would leave them with nothing that could do that kind of instant damage. Even with 2 TDs, followed by 2 FAs, that's likely not 16k damage and would have been painfully obvious what just happened. Now 2 RSs after 2 IMs and 2 TDs that could do it pretty easily, but then we're talking 3 gcd, and pretty much any 2 competent dps can pull that off.

 

So either a) you're wrong about what happened, or b) they used some kind of hack and it has nothing to do with pyrotechs being overpowered or not. Also, just a little advice, you're a gunslinger, use your extra range, that would have guaranteed at least a single shot.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Zoiks

[Roiz]

Thermal

 

As for the original poster, QQing about how you got zerged in a 2vs1 scenario against 2 Powertechs with only 16k HP is laughable. You're not going to win in that situation 99.5% of the time. Slingers aren't exactly known for their defensive survivability. Given what I know about the PT opening rotation (and I do, because I have one) you got nuked with Incendiary Round, Thermal Detonator, and Rail Shot...probably coming from both PTs at the same time.

 

Really, it's just semantics. You would've died in 1.5 seconds or 5, it really doesn't matter.

 

Just an hour ago i killed two sages at my sniper, they have full WH gear , but I was in BM gear with 2 WH.

It was clear 2v1 situation and i have worse gear. I was in clear field in Novare coast and popped all my defencive CD and entrench. With lucky crits first sorc died in 4 shots, After second sorc died I had about half of my health.

 

I am sure if it was two pyro PT I died in few seconds.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Roiz

[iphobia]

An under geared player shouldn't be able to 2v1 a couple of geared players, no matter the classes.

 

--> gear > class > skill

 

That's exactly what's wrong with PvP in this game.

 

No matter how good you are, as long as you don't have the gear and/or play a gimped class, you won't be able to get the same results as players with a balanced/overpowered class and full gear do.

 

If you are very good and your enemies are bad-mediocre, you should be able to win a 1v2, or at least have a chance to do so (if all have more or less the same gear).

 

If you are very good and your enemy is bad-mediocre, you should be able to win against him, even if he has significantly better gear than you.

 

Getting killed within a few globals by 2 monkeys hitting their 3 buttons each is no fun at all and there is 0 skill involved.

It just shows the ridiculous TTK we have right now and how strong this class/spec is compared to others at the moment.

Edited July 20, 2012 by iphobia