remove heals from dps commano

[DarkSideTOR]

I love my Commando. First class I leveled to 50, does great in PVE, great utility in raids, etc.

I even did the War Hero gear grind hoping that my class would eventually receive some much needed attention in future patches, and make it more viable for PVP. Still waiting Bioware...

 

I have and always have been a dps Commando, I have no desire to be a healer, but I'm finding how miserable it is to do RWZ matches as dps Commando and just getting rolled by teams stacked with Vanguard/Sentinels/Healers. Every single ranked match I'm in we face teams with damn near the same composition. Do you developers even watch the performance of teams in ranked games? it doesn't seem like it to me.

 

If we ask for Sent/Van nerfs to bring them down to our levels we get ignored or told " QQ more tis fine L2P lololol" so fine, don't nerf them but ffs gives us some more tools or buff the abilities we do have so we can perform at their levels.

 

I would DEFINITELY give up my ability to heal for more/better defensive tools. Put some abilities on the Assault tree that reduce healing but increase our armor, gives us elemental/internal damage reduction, root, interrupt.

Make others fear Commandos in PVP, instead of what we are now, an easy kill.

[pudim]

I agree as I am much more useful as a assault commando with heals than I am as a sole combat medic

[Mistress_Ivi]

Whilst Vanguard carries the smaller weapon - it doesn't make sense for a Tank to also have access to massive heals they could use on themselves... because that would mean, aoe/aoe/taunt/heal/heal/heal ...wouldn't work out fairly for the other classes.

 

Healer commando's have the option to use heavy weapons or rifles, without any downside - and from a pvp point of view, the appearance of a rifle grants them a small window of safety from the other side ( until they see you healing ).

 

If you hate the abilities so much, it really is quite simple. Remove them from your toolbar - end of. If you've chosen the DPS spec like alot of SORC/SAGES do then that is what you are; accept the advanced class has 2 options and move on.

Removing heals from the class will *not* benefit the class as a whole and you have to remember one thing - Not everyone who selects Commando does it for the DPS - some like the massive weapon and others like the healing side of things... and all 3 types of healer have strengths and weaknesses over the others.

[DarkSideTOR]

Whilst Vanguard carries the smaller weapon - it doesn't make sense for a Tank to also have access to massive heals they could use on themselves... because that would mean, aoe/aoe/taunt/heal/heal/heal ...wouldn't work out fairly for the other classes.

 

Healer commando's have the option to use heavy weapons or rifles, without any downside - and from a pvp point of view, the appearance of a rifle grants them a small window of safety from the other side ( until they see you healing ).

 

If you hate the abilities so much, it really is quite simple. Remove them from your toolbar - end of. If you've chosen the DPS spec like alot of SORC/SAGES do then that is what you are; accept the advanced class has 2 options and move on.

Removing heals from the class will *not* benefit the class as a whole and you have to remember one thing - Not everyone who selects Commando does it for the DPS - some like the massive weapon and others like the healing side of things... and all 3 types of healer have strengths and weaknesses over the others.

 

I think you totally missed the point the OP was trying to make. We've been told by Devs that we "have too many utilities" in our arsenal so we don't need basic abilities like an interrupt that every other class has, and it's the reason they are probably apprehensive about buffing our class.

 

What the OP was saying is to lock out heals if that's the reason you think we would all of the sudden become the most powerful FOTM class. Even though as DPS spec I can tell you, healing is a nice small little perk to have, but nowhere near as usefull as all other classes would have you believe. It eats your ammo superfast if you're not heal spec'd and most of the time the heal doesn't crit, now you used up 3 ammo, a GCD, for 2k hp which a Watchman Sentinel can take away with a couple of ticks of his cauterize dot. That is assuming you actually cast a heal in combat, since every single class out there will immediately interrupt you when they see you trying to heal.

 

We'd give up healing for more defensive utilities is what we're asking.

[Soljin]

doesn't make one bit of sense why i have these two skills that i hardly ever use. I don't want them, and if this is the reason that my dps and survivability is so lackluster then I say get rid of them. I want to be a dps, not an off healer, if I wanted to be a healer I would have picked it. But I didn't, I picked assault spec because gunnery just gets shut down and can't get skills off in pvp post 1.2. my main top tier skill in assault spec in pre 50 pvp hits for like 1-2 k less than what i'm seeing other classes hit me for. And this is a skill that has a 3-4 second pre tick before it even works.. ugh.

 

This is silly, look at the boards, noone is happy with their dps spec commando, at least not in pvp, theyre awful compared to every other advanced class. Remove the 2 baby heals, and the crap cleanse that I never use if this is the hindrance for actually making our dps viable in pvp.

 

I agree with this in the sense that those two heals are definately one of the main reasons the class suffers in its DPS role...That and we have "Heavy armor". Pyro/assault the heals are pretty much just a way to juke the interupt every other AC has...and for Gunnery/Arsenal you can get a heal off true...But in a fight its really just a sign that your losing the fight and need to run and hide...you cannot heal through dmg your just prolonging your defeat by one, best case scenario two GCD's...because they are hitting you for what your healing in one shot.

 

I dont see this happening realisticly...but the idea behind this is sound...the heals are holding our AC back just because they are there..even though they are pretty much useless and really only good to counter the interupt every Class has that we were never given.....Or you can hide and heal yourslef up....Which everyone else can do with the out of combat self recuperation. Sure sometimes you get stuck in combat and can heal up when others would have to wait a few seconds but that is not worth it.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Soljin

[Elyx]

I understand your premise. logic is sound, and it makes sense, so I agree with you in that context. Only issue is Bio's stance on balance. they've stated many times that they won't balance purely for PvP. Of course, they've also made changes due to their PvP impact...but it's usually something that wouldn't affect PvE gameplay.

 

So from a PvP perspective, it makes sense. but the heals in PvE actually help (I play many other classes in Pve that do not have those heals, And i miss them a great deal). so towards your title I would say, "no".

 

But your point....that the Merc/Cmdo needs something to balance out their limitations in PvP. an interrupt or something to bring to the table would help allot. Plus the interrupt can only benefit PvE as well. just ran Battle of ilum the other day with 3 mercs, and a relatively new tank (jugg). the last boss was a pain...either lag or inexperience was keeping the jugg from getting the AoE insta-deaths. after 3 wipes we gave up with no other interrupts available. I really felt it at that point....merc could use an interrupt badly. even if it was on a longer CD.

[ArchangelLBC]

I understand your premise. logic is sound, and it makes sense, so I agree with you in that context. Only issue is Bio's stance on balance. they've stated many times that they won't balance purely for PvP. Of course, they've also made changes due to their PvP impact...but it's usually something that wouldn't affect PvE gameplay.

 

So from a PvP perspective, it makes sense. but the heals in PvE actually help (I play many other classes in Pve that do not have those heals, And i miss them a great deal). so towards your title I would say, "no".

 

But your point....that the Merc/Cmdo needs something to balance out their limitations in PvP. an interrupt or something to bring to the table would help allot. Plus the interrupt can only benefit PvE as well. just ran Battle of ilum the other day with 3 mercs, and a relatively new tank (jugg). the last boss was a pain...either lag or inexperience was keeping the jugg from getting the AoE insta-deaths. after 3 wipes we gave up with no other interrupts available. I really felt it at that point....merc could use an interrupt badly. even if it was on a longer CD.

 

What's funny is that the original grav nerf is seen as largely a PVP fix, and yet this had huge implications in PVE because the changes they made to demo round and curtain of fire didn't really balance out the damage, especially after they "fixed" demo round. I basically went from 1.2 (especially 1.2c) to 1.3 feeling like I had to work twice as hard just to get middle of the road. With the changes in 1.3 (fixing deadly cannon to work for Full Auto, and changing the accuracy talent to armor pen for full auto and HiB) I feel like our damage has finally been fixed.

 

Adding extra utility like Hold the Line, baseline roots/snares and other such changes would do nothing for PVE, and would just effect PVP giving us huge boosts to survivability simply by giving us tools to keep enemies at range while still keeping us squishy for when others DO get to us. That's the kind of change I want, and somehow heals are keeping that from happening (mostly I think that was just a crap answer btw to avoid admitting they designed the class badly for PVP).

[Soljin]

What's funny is that the original grav nerf is seen as largely a PVP fix, and yet this had huge implications in PVE because the changes they made to demo round and curtain of fire didn't really balance out the damage, especially after they "fixed" demo round. I basically went from 1.2 (especially 1.2c) to 1.3 feeling like I had to work twice as hard just to get middle of the road. With the changes in 1.3 (fixing deadly cannon to work for Full Auto, and changing the accuracy talent to armor pen for full auto and HiB) I feel like our damage has finally been fixed.

 

Adding extra utility like Hold the Line, baseline roots/snares and other such changes would do nothing for PVE, and would just effect PVP giving us huge boosts to survivability simply by giving us tools to keep enemies at range while still keeping us squishy for when others DO get to us. That's the kind of change I want, and somehow heals are keeping that from happening (mostly I think that was just a crap answer btw to avoid admitting they designed the class badly for PVP).

 

/agree Biggest problem for the AC is having no way to hold range to get our dmg out. Wether you throw a CD on TM/PS but make it instant(to equal same TM/PS per time pass)...Or give us interupt, snare, root....it doesnt effect PvE its only effects PvP.

[Targarion]

doesn't make one bit of sense why i have these two skills that i hardly ever use. I don't want them, and if this is the reason that my dps and survivability is so lackluster then I say get rid of them. I want to be a dps, not an off healer, if I wanted to be a healer I would have picked it. But I didn't, I picked assault spec because gunnery just gets shut down and can't get skills off in pvp post 1.2. my main top tier skill in assault spec in pre 50 pvp hits for like 1-2 k less than what i'm seeing other classes hit me for. And this is a skill that has a 3-4 second pre tick before it even works.. ugh.

 

This is silly, look at the boards, noone is happy with their dps spec commando, at least not in pvp, theyre awful compared to every other advanced class. Remove the 2 baby heals, and the crap cleanse that I never use if this is the hindrance for actually making our dps viable in pvp.

 

Ok so heres the problem with your argument, "I". You see when you say "I" you actually imply that you speak only for yourself and not the rest of us trooper playing mob. Well "I" don't have a problem with the Trooper class and "I" actually like my medic abilities. So who should BW listen to, really?

 

Yes if you seriously wanted to avoid any kind of healing ability then you should have probably picked jedi knight or at least a trooper then a vanguard.

 

To take a commando's healing ability away turns a commando essentially into a vanguard.

 

And I am sorry if it hurts, but a commando is a healing class, and you probably should have done your homework before rolling as one if you can't dps with your commando.

 

Sorry I don't find your aurgment logical, but that's my two cents.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Targarion

[BlastingGravy]

And I am sorry if it hurts, but a commando is a healing class, and you probably should have done your homework before rolling as one if you can't dps with your commando.

 

This is what I've been thinking for the entirety of the thread. If you care so much about the having or not having heals, then why did you make a commando in the first place?

[ArchangelLBC]

Ok so heres the problem with your argument, "I". You see when you say "I" you actually imply that you speak only for yourself and not the rest of us trooper playing mob. Well "I" don't have a problem with the Trooper class and "I" actually like my medic abilities. So who should BW listen to, really?

 

Yes if you seriously wanted to avoid any kind of healing ability then you should have probably picked jedi knight or at least a trooper then a vanguard.

 

To take a commando's healing ability away turns a commando essentially into a vanguard.

 

And I am sorry if it hurts, but a commando is a healing class, and you probably should have done your homework before rolling as one if you can't dps with your commando.

 

Sorry I don't find your aurgment logical, but that's my two cents.

 

Commando is not just a healing class no more than vanguard is just a tanking class. 4 of the 6 Trooper AC skill trees are completely DPS focused. You've missed the point of this entire thread which is that BW has said that the reason for Commando's complete lack of utility in PVP is because they have heals. While, as I've said, this completely ignores the fact that scoundrels and sages have plenty of utility despite the fact that they have heals, the fact is that as long as that's BW's stance many of us would actually trade our heals in for that added utility. It's mostly a frustration thing, but fact is that in PVP your heals are mostly there to cheese a 2.5k healing medal, maybe heal yourself up while still in combat.

[xxIncubixx]

This is what I've been thinking for the entirety of the thread. If you care so much about the having or not having heals, then why did you make a commando in the first place?

 

so vanguard should only be able to tank. diference is that Vanguard is Overpowered and Commando is just trash, sad but true. And before you start blabling , i have a powertech with battlemaster and a war hero commando, and the diference is just sad... even with worse equipment the powertech blows the commando out of the water. sad state this game is on.

Edited August 1, 2012 by xxIncubixx

[BlastingGravy]

Commando is not just a healing class no more than vanguard is just a tanking class. 4 of the 6 Trooper AC skill trees are completely DPS focused. You've missed the point of this entire thread which is that BW has said that the reason for Commando's complete lack of utility in PVP is because they have heals. While, as I've said, this completely ignores the fact that scoundrels and sages have plenty of utility despite the fact that they have heals, the fact is that as long as that's BW's stance many of us would actually trade our heals in for that added utility. It's mostly a frustration thing, but fact is that in PVP your heals are mostly there to cheese a 2.5k healing medal, maybe heal yourself up while still in combat.

 

Yes, because DPS scoundrels and sages seem perfectly content with how they do in PVP. Scoundrels complain about lack of a gap closer and sustained damage. Sages complain about being too easy to kill. I'm willing to bet that many of them would gladly trade those problems for a lack of the mythical "utility" you speak of. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I suppose.

[xxIncubixx]

Yes, because DPS scoundrels and sages seem perfectly content with how they do in PVP. Scoundrels complain about lack of a gap closer and sustained damage. Sages complain about being too easy to kill. I'm willing to bet that many of them would gladly trade those problems for a lack of the mythical "utility" you speak of. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I suppose.

the problem is right now the grass is indeed greener, on vanguard and marauder.

[Elyx]

the problem is right now the grass is indeed greener, on vanguard and marauder.

 

Hehe it's always greener man. One of my favorite forum past-times is hoping between the class forums, and comparing how many threads there are about how "their" class is the "worst" and no one wants them....and they have nothing special to bring to the table...and their DPS is worse then everyone else...

 

And the funniest thing is you can often see mirror threads, almost word for word...in each forum...

 

if you took it to heart, every class sucks, and every class is the worst DPS...and the worst tank...and Bio hates them...

[Mayeh]

You know, when I use my stock strike or concussive charge, it tends to interrupt what people are doing. I use them to interrupt healers while knocking them further and further from the combat area. You can't interrupt people who are immune to knock backs but count to three and the Sith who leaped to you is no longer immune. I love playing my Gunnery Spec in PvP.

[ArchangelLBC]

Yes, because DPS scoundrels and sages seem perfectly content with how they do in PVP. Scoundrels complain about lack of a gap closer and sustained damage. Sages complain about being too easy to kill. I'm willing to bet that many of them would gladly trade those problems for a lack of the mythical "utility" you speak of. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I suppose.

 

Now imagine how they would be with no interrupt, stealth (for scoundrels), speed boost and rescue (sages), or snares/roots (both classes).

 

Sages lack burst but they're quite a good kiting class, and rescue is quite the powerful tool in Hutt Ball.

 

Scoundrels are absolutely devastating in the right hands. They complain because after their burst is done they're sucking hind teat, but it's pretty good burst and the alphastrike means they're always doing it while the opponent can't really respond.

 

We're very easy to kill, have no way to reliably kite, and STILL have no utility.

 

You know, when I use my stock strike or concussive charge, it tends to interrupt what people are doing. I use them to interrupt healers while knocking them further and further from the combat area. You can't interrupt people who are immune to knock backs but count to three and the Sith who leaped to you is no longer immune. I love playing my Gunnery Spec in PvP.

 

Knockback also doesn't affect anyone with a full resolve bar, and that doesn't disappear in 3 seconds.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[Baarabas]

The time to cast heals is what makes them utterly useless, in both PvP and PvE. If they were instant cast and just on cooldown, then we'd have a decent 'utility' skill...but they aren't...and as the OP says, I'd rather have some utility than worthless heals that take far too long to cast.

 

Agreed

[BlastingGravy]

Now imagine how they would be with no interrupt, stealth (for scoundrels), speed boost and rescue (sages), or snares/roots (both classes).

 

Sages lack burst but they're quite a good kiting class, and rescue is quite the powerful tool in Hutt Ball.

 

Scoundrels are absolutely devastating in the right hands. They complain because after their burst is done they're sucking hind teat, but it's pretty good burst and the alphastrike means they're always doing it while the opponent can't really respond.

 

You're missing the point. No sage is going to complain that rescue is useless, and no scoundrel is going to complain that stealth is underpowered. The point is that they are complaining about problems that commandos don't have. This means that commandos do have attributes that make up for their lack of so-called "utility." It's easy to make sages and scoundrels look better when you only list their strengths and yet only list the commandos' weaknesses.

 

For the record, I do agree that commandos not having an interrupt is stupid and pointless, but none of the other complaints have any merit.

 

We're very easy to kill, have no way to reliably kite, and STILL have no utility.

Now you're just being silly. I might be willing to grant that sages are a bit better at kiting, but saying that you're easy to kill stretching credulity to its limits. Edited August 2, 2012 by BlastingGravy

[ArchangelLBC]

You're missing the point. No sage is going to complain that rescue is useless, and no scoundrel is going to complain that stealth is underpowered. The point is that they are complaining about problems that commandos don't have. This means that commandos do have attributes that make up for their lack of so-called "utility." It's easy to make sages and scoundrels look better when you only list their strengths and yet only list the commandos' weaknesses.

 

For the record, I do agree that commandos not having an interrupt is stupid and pointless, but none of the other complaints have any merit.

 

 

They might be arguing about problems commandos don't have (at least the argument from sages that they don't have good burst is certainly a problem commando doesn't have depending on spec and how much set up time they're allowed.) They might also be arguing about problems that we also have that we haven't gotten around to worrying about because of our crippling lack of utility.

 

The original point was that those classes have heals AND additional utility. Exactly which attributes do you feel commandos have that make up for our lack of utility? Our amazing ability to self root for long periods of time in order to set up the middle of the road burst we have? (Gunnery, and to a lesser but non trivial amount Assault). Our lack of any abilities to reliably keep enemies at range so we can do the damage we're capable of? (One baseline knockback that doesn't keep anyone at range long enough to even get a full cast off, and a talented knockback which is even more mediocre? At least concussion charge hits multiple people).

 

Sorry but playing commando pretty much feels like all strength and no weakness, unless you're left to your own devices, and pretty much any DPS can perform well when left to their own devices. I am more than willing to entertain a full list of all three classes strengths and weaknesses in all DPS specs if we want to do a really thorough comparison. I'll need you to be detailed about the other two classes.

 

Does alot of it spring from a little envy without focusing on the fact that those classes have problems too? Yeah I have to admit it does, but that doesn't make it any easier to see the upside of commando. If anything all three classes sound like they need serious buffs in PVP.

 

Now you're just being silly. I might be willing to grant that sages are a bit better at kiting, but saying that you're easy to kill stretching credulity to its limits.

 

Now you're just being woefully ignorant, trolling, or are in possession of some great secret to commando survival in warzone environments. I personally feel like I fold like a cheap card table whenever someone gives me a stern glance, and I wish I was the only one that felt that way since then I could just chalk it up to the fact that I suck at PVP. I don't need to be stunlocked by an operative to get bursted down without being able to reasonably respond. Any class with an interrupt can do that. I often feel like the squishiest of the squish, and again I'm not alone in that assessment of commandos.

 

Also a BIT better? You do realize that the only reliable snare we have that actually lets us run away is on a 20-25s cooldown (assuming you have the set bonus), requires them to already be in melee range of us to use, is on the resolve bar, and only lasts for 4 seconds right?

[AshlaBoga]

I'll accept that there may be some dps issues, but survivability issues? I'm fairly certain that isn't something a Commando struggles with.

[GrantyJPS]

I'll accept that there may be some dps issues, but survivability issues? I'm fairly certain that isn't something a Commando struggles with.

 

Actually I find the opposite. I have no issue with our damage but the total inability to get away from melee (closers on lower CD than our openers, more and better snares/roots) is what holds this AC back.

[Chaoskyx]

I'll accept that there may be some dps issues, but survivability issues? I'm fairly certain that isn't something a Commando struggles with.

 

What is this I don't even.

 

You've got those backwards. Our DPS is okay, but survivability is where we have major issues. For instance, we have no reliable way to kite/escape melee, nor do we have the defenses to deal with their damage, so they eat us alive.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Chaoskyx

[BlastingGravy]

The original point was that those classes have heals AND additional utility. Exactly which attributes do you feel commandos have that make up for our lack of utility?

Compared to other healing classes? Heavy armor, better defensive cooldowns, multiple knockbacks (if gunnery), an armor debuff that benifits the whole team (if gunnery) a constantly applicable slow that doesn't interrupt your rotation (if assault).

Our amazing ability to self root for long periods of time in order to set up the middle of the road burst we have? (Gunnery, and to a lesser but non trivial amount Assault).

This is less of a problem for sages how?

Our lack of any abilities to reliably keep enemies at range so we can do the damage we're capable of? (One baseline knockback that doesn't keep anyone at range long enough to even get a full cast off, and a talented knockback which is even more mediocre? At least concussion charge hits multiple people).

I'm not sure how your knockback is somehow worse than a sage's. Your second knockback isn't mediocre when you compare it to the second knockback of any other class. Assuming you're gunnery, of course.

Now you're just being woefully ignorant, trolling, or are in possession of some great secret to commando survival in warzone environments. I personally feel like I fold like a cheap card table whenever someone gives me a stern glance, and I wish I was the only one that felt that way since then I could just chalk it up to the fact that I suck at PVP. I don't need to be stunlocked by an operative to get bursted down without being able to reasonably respond. Any class with an interrupt can do that. I often feel like the squishiest of the squish, and again I'm not alone in that assessment of commandos.

I'm sorry that that's how you "feel." But can you explain how it is logically possible for a class with heavy armor and better defensive cooldowns to be "squishier" than a sage?

Also a BIT better? You do realize that the only reliable snare we have that actually lets us run away is on a 20-25s cooldown (assuming you have the set bonus), requires them to already be in melee range of us to use, is on the resolve bar, and only lasts for 4 seconds right?

If you are assault, you have one of the most reliable snares in the game. You can keep it up constantly, and it's applied as part of your normal rotation. Compare that to force slow which can be applied for only half the time, and requires an extra global cooldown to apply. Which makes me wonder, which spec do you play? My guess would be gunnery, given what you've said so far. If so, you should switch to assault, because it has far, far fewer of the problems you are describing. Assault is pretty obviously the superior PvP spec.

[ArchangelLBC]

Compared to other healing classes? Heavy armor, better defensive cooldowns, multiple knockbacks (if gunnery), an armor debuff that benifits the whole team (if gunnery) a constantly applicable slow that doesn't interrupt your rotation (if assault).

 

Believe it or not, heavy armor just isn't that much of an advantage, especially not with the many skills and abilities which either bypass armor entirely, or allow classes to gain significant amounts of armor penetration. People always seem surprised when we say that heavy armor just isn't all that. It doesn't allow us to facetank anything for significantly longer than the other healing classes, but we don't get the escapes they do (disappearing act and force speed).

 

Scoundrels get Dodge (nullifies the biggest part of the burst from Assault Vanguards/ Pyro PTs, probably takes quite a bit of skill to use this way), and Defense Screen. Would you care to comment on the overall effectiveness of Defense Screen? It sure SOUNDS better than Energy Shield which is a flat 25% DR for 12 seconds, but it could, likely is, limited in how much damage it absorbs. Our other defensive cool down is Adrenaline Rush which frankly isn't all that good, any heavy DPS is going to out DPS Adrenaline Rush.

 

Sages got kinda screwed on defensive cooldowns, but force armor is a very proactive form of defense since defenders have to chew through it before they can really start damaging you. It's easily enough to eat almost the entire first HiB if it crits from an Assault Commando (and all of the upfront damage of the Incend Round I had to use to set that up) and all of it if the HiB doesn't crit. If they're using it smart they can have it on and have Force imbalance almost done so they can reapply it to themselves almost immediately at the beginning of an encounter which can keep them from going into the hole on damage. Also, this skill is one of the best utility skills in their arsenal since they can spread it around to their teammates and rack up very nice healing numbers just by using Force Armor on teammates whenever possible, and since its instant they can do it without greatly slowing them down.

 

I already mentioned Disappearing Act and Vanish, but sage in particular has that great kiting ability while still doing damage through DoTs and that is absolutely a form of survivability.

 

Commandos are like Vanguards in that our only real escape is to kill our opponent. We win or we die. Vanguards do this better though since their abilities to reset HiB are all instant, and Neural Surge can really buy them some time to get their damage out. If Full Auto doesn't proc IA then we're stuck with Charged Bolts which has a 2s cast time (1.5s if you spec into muzzle fluting in the Gunnery Tree), which suffers from the same problems Grav Round has as far as being shutdown.

 

This is less of a problem for sages how?

 

Sages can DoT and run respectably well if Balance Spec, and in general have the ability to keep enemies at range while they go through those long induction times. Telekinetic Spec arguably has some of the problems of Gunnery, but it's knockback roots the enemy, and on inspection seems to have quite a lot of potential for burst as well as having a 35m range (yes that 5m difference can help a ton). Would need more comments from sages. Balance's reliance on DoTs is a valid concern in an environment where burst is at a premium, but it's certainly more mobile.

I know they used to have a really good hybrid spec. Dunno if that's still viable though.

 

I'm not sure how your knockback is somehow worse than a sage's. Your second knockback isn't mediocre when you compare it to the second knockback of any other class. Assuming you're gunnery, of course.

 

The ability to spec their knockback to root their opponents is huge for sages who need time to cast. Don't think it isn't. I'll trade the second knockback talented on stockstrike for that alone, and sages get a baseline snare.

 

I'm sorry that that's how you "feel." But can you explain how it is logically possible for a class with heavy armor and better defensive cooldowns to be "squishier" than a sage?

 

I've kinda gone over it above basically better kiting abilities, and just the ability to actually run from an encounter instead of being forced to stand and fight. In addition, Force Armor isn't going to be confused with an Honest to God defensive cooldown, but it's still very powerful as a defensive tool.

 

If you are assault, you have one of the most reliable snares in the game. You can keep it up constantly, and it's applied as part of your normal rotation. Compare that to force slow which can be applied for only half the time, and requires an extra global cooldown to apply. Which makes me wonder, which spec do you play? My guess would be gunnery, given what you've said so far. If so, you should switch to assault, because it has far, far fewer of the problems you are describing. Assault is pretty obviously the superior PvP spec.

 

I think this is showing your Vanguard background. THEY get the 100% applied snare on an ability that is part of their normal rotation to keep proccing Ionic Accelerator. Commandos don't get that for our secondary IA proccing ability, Charged Bolts. It has the same baseline chance to proc Plasma Cell that every other skill has. If we want to reliably spread our DoTs around we have to rely on the 50% more expensive Incendiary Round, or spam Hammer Shot, which at least hits multiple times so has a better chance of proccing IA.

 

For the record, I've played both specs in PVP, and switch back and forth several times a week. I switch to Assault when I know I'll have a few days before I have to raid again, I'll stay gunnery if I'm going to have to raid again soon. I agree absolutely that Assault is better in PVP, and needs much less help to bring it up to snuff, but after the initial burst it still suffers from self rooting issues unless we want to proc IA once every 15 seconds (or if Full Auto fails to proc it).

Edited August 3, 2012 by ArchangelLBC