Need & Greed

[iamthehoyden]

For my two cents:

 

I'd like to see a 2 hour window where BOP items can be traded among the group members who were there for the loot drop. It would fix the issue of accidentally clicking Need, and would make it clear that the person's lying in cases where they say "oops, didn't mean to" but did it on purpose.

 

In the end, however, if you are in a group, and you have major issues with the way they're needing/greeding then /ignore and drop group. There are enough fundamental differences between how people use the system that really it's better not to run with people you're diametrically opposed to.

 

Do I wish I could assume people were honorable enough to only need when the item as a whole is an upgrade for their player character in their current spec? Sure. But there are enough people out there who view "I'm able to" as "I have a right to" that I'll reserve judgement till I see them in action.

[crunchbarry]

Need for your character. Greed for everything else. And no, marauders can't need on heavy armor unless they ask permission first.

 

If you need for your stupid companion or alt you are a ninja looter and loot whore.

[ZeroOneNine]

While I do run into some people, especially now given the group finder, who roll need for nearly everything and greed if it is heading for the GTN, it is rare. If they get called out on it and it turns out that it wasn't by accident, they go on my ignore list and groupfinder doesn't pair me with them anymore - problem solved.

 

Other than that, normally when I'm in a group we need on:

1.) Items that your current toon actually needs - hence the name of the button

2.) Speeders

3.) High level crafting mats, but only if your toon can use it

 

Everything else is greed. Also, it never hurts to ask your group if you are unsure.

[BobaTed]

Now you are getting it.

 

You wouldnt believe how many richards there are in the world.

 

Actually, you probably would.

So, basically, it's just a matter of perspective in the BCA case. Got it.

 

I generally play by "nice guy" rules, but personally, I couldn't bring myself to fault anyone for rolling "need" on BCA. It's too useful to too many people for anyone to trust to a "greed" roll, if they actually want it. And if anyone gets bent over it, well, they're the richard as far as I'm concerned.

[Newyankalt]

I agree and crew skill scchamtics I mean there was an artifice 400 schematic and some trooper just went and said need like *** why would a trooper need artfice.

[Kyriosgundam]

First thread for me so here goes.

 

First off let me say I tried to find a suggestion thread, and if there is one that I didn't find, feel free to smack me on the head and give me directions.

 

With that out of the way I am wondering if the current Need & Greed system is good enough. I understand the general idea of it, with the honor system people roll need only when they actually need something. But does it work like this?

 

I play a Juggernaut and I'm so sick and tired of Marauders rolling need on Heavy Armor either because they don't realize they can't use it or because they justify need rolling by saying they will pry out the mods and use them. Is that a valid reason for need rolling, just to get the mods? Earlier this day I lost the Foeseeker's Body Armor to a Marauder who I think didn't even speak english at all. So his reason for need rolling is unknown.

 

And I understand rolling for companions is fine when no one else needs the item, but I've seen piles upon piles of people naming people that have need rolled gear for companions when someone else needed it for their own character. Some would say this is ok, others would not.

 

Anyway I digress, I would like to see a system where you could not press if the stats / armor type didn't match your class, the button being greyed out. Failing that I would at least want to see a system where you couldn't press need if you couldn't equip the item.

 

I know the honor system with Need & Greed is widely acknowledged but the internet tends to turn people into, less nice people, so many perfectly good guys could be screwed by a minor number of people that don't care whether or not they themselves can actually use the item in question.

 

This dragged on, and may have a "whiny" tone to it, I am aware. But I excuse myself for that seeing as it's not 10 minutes ago since I experienced this yet again.

 

Would love to hear other opinions on the matter of the current loot system.

 

I agree I have lost alot of potentially good gear to players who's actual characters dont need it and they give the "Oh my companion needs it excuse". Only to see the mods they stripped out of it on the Galactic Trade Network for sale. If they wanted credits just hit the greed option its not that hard. I experienced it the last time I was online lucky this time it went to someone who needed it more than I did. However people hitting need for gear they cant even use happens way more often than it should.

[Newyankalt]

There's always the vote to kick option as well to needers like that.

[Rafael_Peres]

Vote for kick.

That's it.

[Philmors]

I suggest voting to kick those players then. It would be one thing if he asked if he can roll need on stuff for his companion and the class for that gear says it's okay, it's another to just roll without asking.

[Sarx]

Personally, I don't feel very strongly about how loot is rolled, as long as it's a fair roll. If the group I'm in wants to allow Need for companions, fine, if not that's fine too. The best thing to do is talk about it before you get started.

 

What frustrates me is that there are so many players who have a set way of doing loot and believe that their method is automatically the "proper" or best way to do it, and anyone who thinks otherwise must be stupid or lacking common sense.

 

The fact is, there is no official guide to need and greed. To me it seems like the obvious way to do it would be that you hit need for anything you actually plan to use (even if for companion, off spec, mods, etc) and you only hit greed if you plan to sell it. Seems to me this is why the greed icon is a credit symbol.

 

Now, I realize the community generally does not do it this way, which is why I prefer to talk about it before the run.

 

They could solve the problem by adding a third category, let's call it "want." Then Need could be changed to only allow rolls if you can use the item on your current character. "Want" could basically be what Need is now, but maybe add a feature that prevents the item from being sold on the GTN. Maybe make anything looted this way bound to legacy.

[Ratajack]

"All thats necessary for the forces of evil to win is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

 

It may be a bit over the top for a game but the point remains.

 

I suppose anyone can justify themselves to you and youll just check thier self justifications against the current rulebook.

 

Rulebooks, BTW, dont always specify everything. Thats where societies own morals of right and wrong come to play. Thats how a vast majority of players just happen to not roll on items they wont use without having to establish a long list of rules before every run. Thats where the word "Common" in Common Courtesy comes from. Compassion, generosity, altruism ...

 

Its sad that you defend those without it but I guess there is nothing in the rulebook about that. I suppose its good enough that you ignore them. May not be much, but in the end its all we can do in the long run. Youre just passive and nonconfrontational about it but its a punishment ... a tiny, insignificant one, but a punishment none the less.

 

Maybe this is a bit over the top as well, but aren't those the very principles upon which the United States of America were founded? We have an established set of rules(laws) and if a person abides by those rules, who am I or you to say that just because we disagree with the values they hold that they are any more or less "right" than we are?

 

The "rules" for rolling on items were established by BW. Some players wish to impose their own set of rules overriding the ones already set by the developers, citing common courtesy, etc. I choose to apply my own set of values to my actions, while allowing others the freedom follow their own path, so long as they abide by the established rules(laws).

 

In my opinion, ignoring a player is not a punishment. It is an exercise of my right not to interact with a person whose values I do not share, the same right I exercise in real life. I choose to socialize with people whose values I do share, but we do not impose our values on others.

 

It is possible to be "passive and non-confrontational" while still maintaining my own values. If a person chooses not to follow the rules, either by hacking, or some other method of "cheating", then I will report them. In a like manner, if a person chooses to break the laws, or put me or others at risk, then I take the appropriate action against them as well.

[Ratajack]

I agree and crew skill scchamtics I mean there was an artifice 400 schematic and some trooper just went and said need like *** why would a trooper need artfice.

 

While artifice may seem to be an unusual choice for a trooper, it is possible that the trooper was indeed an artificer. With being able to mail cross faction to alts, he may have had the other crafting professions covered by other toons on one faction or the other.

[Khevar]

So basically it's just another rule people made up and that other people are supposed to "get" because it's "common sense" or "common courtesy." But why is it fair? I'm saying it isn't - precisely because anyone who plays nice and "greeds" probably will lose out to anyone who plays mean and "needs."

 

...

The first op I ever did, the group leader explained it as such:

 

1. If it is gear your primary character can wear, you NEED it.

2. If it's an end-boss gear drop (e.g. Columi token) for a different class currently present, you PASS on it.

3. If it is gear your companion can wear, you GREED it.

4. If it is a crafting material, everyone GREEDS it.

 

It sounded so logical to me that the clouds parted, and a beam of sunlight shown down onto my character while a choir of Jedi angels sang a hymn.

 

Ever since, I always operate according to these rules in every pug, every guild raid, every op.

 

And by a curious coincidence, every skilled player I've had to good fortune to group with has followed the exact same rules.

 

So yeah, "common sense", "common courtesy", everyone should "get". I'm actually baffled that this idea doesn't make sense to everyone. Ah, well.

Edited July 18, 2012 by JeffKretz

[BobaTed]

It sounded so logical to me that the clouds parted, and a beam of sunlight shown down onto my character while a choir of Jedi angels sang a hymn.

 

Ever since, I always operate according to these rules in every pug, every guild raid, every op.

 

And by a curious coincidence, every skilled player I've had to good fortune to group with has followed the exact same rules.

 

So yeah, "common sense", "common courtesy", everyone should "get". I'm actually baffled that this idea doesn't make sense to everyone. Ah, well.

Sure, sounds nice and all, and it's nice to be nice, but all that goes away when someone rolls "need." That's the problem, and that's my point. The current need/greed system does not intrinsically support being nice, nor does it prevent greed - and all the etiquette and all the social censure in the world are only so much wet tissue paper to someone who decides to be economically rational.

 

I'm just as baffled that anyone doesn't see that, and that people keep defending a broken system and the fundamentally unenforceable player-made code of behavior created around it. Why not just remove the issue? Life is simpler and more enjoyable that way.

[Haggardbr]

I didn't even read the whole thing but I'm pretty sure what's this about.

 

I'll tell what's my behavior in these cases.

 

On the Empire side I play a Sniper and an Operative so I'm pretty aware that all orange medium armor gear with cunning mods is for my class.

 

So, if I don't have the item yet or if it does give me a good improvement in stats I will roll need for it or if it's an item I was looking for but it didn't drop on the first attempts I tried.

 

That's one point.

 

Buuuut if I reroll a flashpoint or heroic to help other people I will ALWAYS PASS OR GREED items I already have or that won't give me any improvement.

 

When I don't do that instantly I wait people to roll their parts and if everyone chooses "greed" I still ask if I can need the item for a companion, since I couldn't use with alts as flashpoint drops are BoP.

 

If people used to act like this, things would be a lot better.

 

When guildmates and I are running some heroics that they may have and we let a "stranger" join us to do his heroics too and this "stranger" starts needing everything, we stop a little and tell the person to stop needing everything she sees and look for the stats before.

 

If the person keeps this kind of behavior we just kick them from the group and call out a companion to take his place.

 

Per example, it's been days that I'm rolling Mando Raiders flashpoint after that Clan Varad Militia Rifle and when I find a group I already tell them that I just need the damn rifle that drops from the last boss. On that note, everything else that comes I tend to "greed".

 

To me it's just a matter of common sense and knowing the basic stats for your class.

 

Constantly in the chats of early worlds I see people asking around what's the main stats for a trooper / BH and so on.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Haggardbr

[Khevar]

Sure, sounds nice and all, and it's nice to be nice, but all that goes away when someone rolls "need." That's the problem, and that's my point. The current need/greed system does not intrinsically support being nice, nor does it prevent greed - and all the etiquette and all the social censure in the world are only so much wet tissue paper to someone who decides to be economically rational.

 

I'm just as baffled that anyone doesn't see that, and that people keep defending a broken system and the fundamentally unenforceable player-made code of behavior created around it. Why not just remove the issue? Life is simpler and more enjoyable that way.

This is a fair point.

 

However, I've done many many pug hard mode flashpoints. And one pug op. Only twice was someone needing unnecessarily. Both times the player was asked in group chat to not do that and they promptly stopped.

 

Now perhaps your experiences are different. Maybe you've been grouped with a lot of rude people trying to steal your gear. I don't know.

 

Honestly, if the loot rules were changed and it forced people to follow the rules that I already do it wouldn't affect me one bit. In other words, add enforced loot rules or don't -- I don't really mind either way.

 

But let's be realistic here. If someone:

 

1. Needs unnecessarily

2. Is asked to stop doing it in chat, and

3. Continues to do so

 

Why would you want to group with them anyway? These are the only type of people that would be "fixed" by this enforced loot rule.

Edited July 18, 2012 by JeffKretz

[MbaxterBeau]

First thread for me so here goes.

 

First off let me say I tried to find a suggestion thread, and if there is one that I didn't find, feel free to smack me on the head and give me directions.

 

With that out of the way I am wondering if the current Need & Greed system is good enough. I understand the general idea of it, with the honor system people roll need only when they actually need something. But does it work like this?

 

I play a Juggernaut and I'm so sick and tired of Marauders rolling need on Heavy Armor either because they don't realize they can't use it or because they justify need rolling by saying they will pry out the mods and use them. Is that a valid reason for need rolling, just to get the mods? Earlier this day I lost the Foeseeker's Body Armor to a Marauder who I think didn't even speak english at all. So his reason for need rolling is unknown.

 

And I understand rolling for companions is fine when no one else needs the item, but I've seen piles upon piles of people naming people that have need rolled gear for companions when someone else needed it for their own character. Some would say this is ok, others would not.

 

Anyway I digress, I would like to see a system where you could not press if the stats / armor type didn't match your class, the button being greyed out. Failing that I would at least want to see a system where you couldn't press need if you couldn't equip the item.

 

I know the honor system with Need & Greed is widely acknowledged but the internet tends to turn people into, less nice people, so many perfectly good guys could be screwed by a minor number of people that don't care whether or not they themselves can actually use the item in question.

 

This dragged on, and may have a "whiny" tone to it, I am aware. But I excuse myself for that seeing as it's not 10 minutes ago since I experienced this yet again.

 

Would love to hear other opinions on the matter of the current loot system.

 

What server are you on? If you're on the imp side of the fatman server this rarely happens when I heal hardmodes. You are welcome to que in group finder with me and if this happens we can just kick them from the group

[BobaTed]

Now perhaps your experiences are different. Maybe you've been grouped with a lot of rude people trying to steal your gear. I don't know.

There are very few people that I've grouped with whom I would call rude. However, my experience has been that when I play "nice" with a need/greed setup, the chances are very high that I won't get anything I can actually use. It's almost never any one person's fault either. It's just that the deck is stacked against the nice guy unless everyone rolls "greed" or everyone rolls "need."

 

Why would you want to group with them anyway? These are the only type of people that would be "fixed" by this enforced loot rule.

First, /kicking and /ignoring them only work after-the-fact, and only after you've already gotten ticked off enough to /kick or /ignore. It may be rare, and I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not my idea of a good time if/when it does happen.

 

Second, a habitual "needer" might otherwise be a lot of fun to play with if not given the chance to ninja loot. In one fairly extreme case (in another game), I had a blast teaming with this guy who knew his stuff and kept the team laughing with his jokes - until I realized he was rolling "need" on everything, even though everything was under-level for him. Kind of put a damper on things. But rather than put him on my /ignore list, I just made a mental note to "need" everything myself if we teamed again.

 

I'm sure we've all known people in games and IRL who have undesirable qualities, but whom we're nonetheless happy to call "friend" if those negative traits can be avoided (or made fun of). Granted, some of those in-game negatives can't be avoided easily (bad tanks, healers, dps, attitudes...) - but some can. This is one of them. Why invite drama when you don't need to?