Lethality vs. Engineering vs. MM for PvE Ops

[Saferai]

Why do people constantly post about their numbers with spec x and how its better than spec y without actually posting some parses? -_-

[Infalliable]

Why do people constantly post about their numbers with spec x and how its better than spec y without actually posting some parses? -_-

 

...or stats, or test conditions (e.g., duration, dummy or specific boss, buffs, etc.), or skill priority/rotation, or specific build. These things make a quite substantial difference in parse numbers and are required for people to make sense of the data point.

 

This is why I don't think it's overly useful to compare yourself to most posted parse numbers. It's better to compare to your own parses and try to improve your performance, irrespective of a "posted" number.

[Somokon]

Yeah something is definately off with those simcraft priority lists

 

I don't know how to actually program those things myself but i'm pretty sure I can read them well enough and I'm seeing 2 major flaws with both specs. Series of Shots is weighted far to high in both cases and I wanted to look into why and I found this.

 

MM : Average FT Interval of 7.98s... Surely if the sim is showing the 'ideal' situation that should be rather close to 6s (though not exactly as it would be delayed by the SV burst rotation every 45s as Tibbel mentions in his compendium). 37 followthroughs in a 5min fight is just bad. This one should be easy enough to fix... just add in a higher priority of snipe if followthrough buff isnt up or has a duration of less than 1.5s and if followthroughs cooldown is < 1.5s

 

Then the real biggy with lethality : An average interval on cull of 19.38s... say what?! Yet rifle shot with only an average of 7s intervals... definately something wrong there if the sim is using cull less than half of what is available... 15 culls in a 5 min encounter is utterly terrible

 

They are pretty simple to understand and write. Basically the sim will start at the top of the list, and move down until it finds an action that it can use and satifies the 'if=...' check. Anything on cooldown or buffs that are already up are automatically skipped. Once it performs an action, it starts at the top of the list again.

 

Yeah when I investigated why lethality was simming so low I noticed the cull intervals as well. For followthrough however, is there any proof out there that dps is maximized when followthrough uses are maximized? I don't play marksman so I don't know how cooldowns line up, but this is definitely not a trivial assertion to make.

 

I wouldn't dismiss simcraft so readily just because the default action lists are bad though. It just means we need to work to improve them!

 

EDIT:

This action list gives Lethality a dps of 1744

actions=stim,type=exotech_skill
actions+=/coordination
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/take_cover,if=buff.take_cover.down
actions+=/shatter_shot,if=buff.shatter_shot.remains<1.5
actions+=/use_relics
actions+=/power_potion
actions+=/adrenaline_probe,if=energy<=66
actions+=/target_acquired,if=energy<=100
actions+=/corrosive_grenade,if=dot.corrosive_grenade.remains<=3
actions+=/corrosive_dart,if=dot.corrosive_dart.remains<=3
actions+=/orbital_strike,if=energy>=81
actions+=/weakening_blast
actions+=/cull,if=energy>=91&(dot.corrosive_dart.ticking|dot.corrosive_dart_weak.ticking)&(dot.corrosive_grenade.ticking|dot.corrosive_grenade_weak.ticking)
actions+=/series_of_shots,if=energy>=81
actions+=/takedown,if=energy>=81
actions+=/explosive_probe,if=energy>=86
actions+=/rifle_shot

Edited July 17, 2012 by Somokon

[Jonespiano]

When the DoTs are up and WB ticks are available, Cull is Lethality's top DPS ability, even higher than Orbital Strike on a single target, and due to the energy recovery from critical yellow ticks and nearly 50% typical crit chance for poison effects, it isn't bad for DPE either. Series of Shots is near the top in both DPS and DPE so it should be next. The priority lists put them far too low.

[Mancer]

Which spec is the best for PVP? How does Lethality hold up there and is it a long set up before you can do damage?

[Truescopes]

Which spec is the best for PVP? How does Lethality hold up there and is it a long set up before you can do damage?

 

All the specs are very viable right now for pvp aswell as some hybrid ones.

I personally run lethality right now and find it very good in pvp, the set up time is just as long as it takes you to apply the 2 dots and weakening blast. I get a lot higher damage than I did when using marksman and the ability to kite, especially on other snipers is just amazing.

[Jonespiano]

That's a discussion for a separate thread. Lethality does have a setup time, but it also has the benefit of persistence. If your DoTs aren't cleansed and your target doesn't die, they will continue to tick for a ridiculously long time even if you get focused down thanks to Lingering Toxins. I believe that Interrogation Probe vanishes if you are killed (so that you are able to reapply it on revival).

[Jonespiano]

Personally, I ran Lethality on an Ops dummy and I feel like I still have work to do figuring it out. I was running 2020 Cunning, 38% buffed crit chance, 65% crit multiplier, 102% accuracy, and parsed at exactly 1200 dps. I was using Explosive Probe, but left Snipe off my bar and didn't use Orbital Strike. I used Overload Shot instead as an instant energy dump if I was close to capped and all my casts and channels were on cooldown. The energy efficiency was wonderful - I could go forever without going below 60 - but it didn't equate to high damage somehow.

 

I was letting the Weak CD and CG run the full duration and fall off before I reapplied, because from a pure energy efficiency standpoint, you want each ability to apply its full effect before you start the cycle again, and I prefer to use the extra GCD's for Culls rather than reapplying the DoTs. WB was used on cooldown, and Cull whenever it was up with 85+ energy.

 

Even though I'm still learning, though, I ran a HM Foundry with this spec and the healer thanked me for being an "epic DPS." I was pulling aggro off the tank on every pull, probably because I was critting so often, to the point that he guarded me. I took to fighting in 10m range like an Operative, even getting in to use my Shiv at times, so he could see what was going on more easily. We had HK-47 to 25% before he summoned adds, and the other DPS was in a combination of Tio and Columi. HK was dead before he even had the chance to hide in his pod.

 

In real-world situations, I like being able to get my rotation going while I'm still running. It's the same reason why I prefer Lethality Operative to Concealment. I can be in the completely wrong place and still open properly, and then I can get into cover to use my stationary attacks like Cull, Explosive Probe, Orbital Strike, Series of Shots at my leisure.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Jonespiano

[theangryllama]

I was letting the Weak CD and CG run the full duration and fall off before I reapplied, because from a pure energy efficiency standpoint, you want each ability to apply its full effect before you start the cycle again, and I prefer to use the extra GCD's for Culls rather than reapplying the DoTs.

 

Thats your dps problem... lingering lasts for 9s from the 21 and 18s dots. So for 1/3 of the time you are losing 85% of the damage from abilities that should be worth over 30% of your total damage. Whilst damage per energy is a valid concern it isn't the be all and end all and you are simply taking to much of a dps hit by letting these tick down. Lingering should be taken for pvp purposes (cleanses and the 15% less DoT damage) and for the rare moments you do screw up and energy starve yourself.

 

You say you would prefer to use the extra GCD's for culls rather than reapplying but at no point if you are using a proper rotation would reapplying interfere with a cull CD instead you are opting to use them instead of fillers. Considering the fillers you should be using are Orbital, Ambush, SoS and EP reapplying the DoT's is better than all.

[Jonespiano]

Thats your dps problem... lingering lasts for 9s from the 21 and 18s dots. So for 1/3 of the time you are losing 85% of the damage from abilities that should be worth over 30% of your total damage. Whilst damage per energy is a valid concern it isn't the be all and end all and you are simply taking to much of a dps hit by letting these tick down. Lingering should be taken for pvp purposes (cleanses and the 15% less DoT damage) and for the rare moments you do screw up and energy starve yourself.

 

You say you would prefer to use the extra GCD's for culls rather than reapplying but at no point if you are using a proper rotation would reapplying interfere with a cull CD instead you are opting to use them instead of fillers. Considering the fillers you should be using are Orbital, Ambush, SoS and EP reapplying the DoT's is better than all.

 

Each tick of Weak CD and CG do 25% as much as the ticks of the original effect, and at the same speed, so it's not as drastic of a reduction as you say it is. (It's 15% of the total dmg over 9s instead of 21/18.) But I can see where you're coming from. It's also a waste if those ticks are consuming WB charges, since it's 30% more damage starting from 75% less.

 

Well, my damage parse was clearly not where it needs to be, so what can I say? I'll take the advice. Maybe I don't even need to take Lingering Toxins, and can put the points into Hold Your Ground for the CD reduction on Shield Probe to make the build less squishy.

[DSafana]

Each tick of Weak CD and CG do 25% as much as the ticks of the original effect, and at the same speed, so it's not as drastic of a reduction as you say it is. (It's 15% of the total dmg over 9s instead of 21/18.) But I can see where you're coming from. It's also a waste if those ticks are consuming WB charges, since it's 30% more damage starting from 75% less.

 

Well, my damage parse was clearly not where it needs to be, so what can I say? I'll take the advice. Maybe I don't even need to take Lingering Toxins, and can put the points into Hold Your Ground for the CD reduction on Shield Probe to make the build less squishy.

 

Get rid of lingering toxins. Try this simple rotation CG>CD>WB>Cull>SOS>OS or Ambush>Cull (again) >repeat.

The SOS and OS will give enough time for cull to be ready for a second cull just before the dots expire. If they are still ticking you can rifle shot or EP(energy allowing) .

[Tibbel]

Thats your dps problem... lingering lasts for 9s from the 21 and 18s dots. So for 1/3 of the time you are losing 85% of the damage from abilities that should be worth over 30% of your total damage. Whilst damage per energy is a valid concern it isn't the be all and end all and you are simply taking to much of a dps hit by letting these tick down.

 

DPE is still the highest priority for sustained DPS. Often, however, if we subtract the damage lost by overwriting a Lingering Toxins DoT, it still comes out as higher DPE than filling that GCD with a Snipe or other low-DPE filler.

[Jonespiano]

Get rid of lingering toxins. Try this simple rotation CG>CD>WB>Cull>SOS>OS or Ambush>Cull (again) >repeat.

The SOS and OS will give enough time for cull to be ready for a second cull just before the dots expire. If they are still ticking you can rifle shot or EP(energy allowing) .

 

I tried out your rotation, and parsed at around 1232 dps against my Infernal Marauder in EV Story. Not bad for having my casts interrupted and not having fully mastered the rotation.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/2738/24

 

Parse the log from 18:19:53 to 18:20:54.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Jonespiano

[Pestulan]

 

EDIT:

This action list gives Lethality a dps of 1744

actions=stim,type=exotech_skill
actions+=/coordination
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/take_cover,if=buff.take_cover.down
actions+=/shatter_shot,if=buff.shatter_shot.remains<1.5
actions+=/use_relics
actions+=/power_potion
actions+=/adrenaline_probe,if=energy<=66
actions+=/target_acquired,if=energy<=100
actions+=/corrosive_grenade,if=dot.corrosive_grenade.remains<=3
actions+=/corrosive_dart,if=dot.corrosive_dart.remains<=3
actions+=/orbital_strike,if=energy>=81
actions+=/weakening_blast
actions+=/cull,if=energy>=91&(dot.corrosive_dart.ticking|dot.corrosive_dart_weak.ticking)&(dot.corrosive_grenade.ticking|dot.corrosive_grenade_weak.ticking)
actions+=/series_of_shots,if=energy>=81
actions+=/takedown,if=energy>=81
actions+=/explosive_probe,if=energy>=86
actions+=/rifle_shot

 

This action list implies Leth should never cast Ambush. That seems counter intuitive. I guess it was the lowest priority filler (barring rifle shot), but still.

[JClawson]

Engineering

 

actions=stim,type=rakata_skillactions+=/coordinationactions+=/snapshot_statsactions+=/take_cover,if=buff.take_cover.downactions+=/shatter_shot,if=buff.shatter_shot.remains<1.5actions+=/use_relicsactions+=/power_potionactions+=/adrenaline_probe,if=energy<=40actions+=/target_acquired,if=energy<=100actions+=/emp_discharge,if=dot.interrogation_probe.remainsactions+=/plasma_probe,if=energy>=82|buff.energy_overrides.up|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/explosive_probe,,if=energy>=82|buff.energy_overrides.up|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/orbital_strike,if=energy>=96|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/series_of_shots,if=energy>86|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/interrogation_probe,if=energy>=82|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/takedown,if=energy>=81|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/ambush,if=energy>=81|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/laze_targetactions+=/snipe,if=energy>=86|cooldown.adrenaline_probe.remains<1.5actions+=/rifle_shot

 

 

 

 

Your engi rotation priority is a little off. It should open with orbital followed by Interrogation probe, then plasma probe, then shatter shot...go from there. Plasma probe and Interrogation probe, if kept up, will be over a third of an engi snipers damage on a static single target. With the added aoe % damage from the engi tree Orbital strike is actually worth the energy to be used on a single target fight. Currently I am rocking a mix of rakata/black hole augmented gear (cunning around 2k, 40% crit, 78% surge) and my engi orbital is critting for 4.5k reliably per tick.

[Bonanzas]

yeah im using my own 2/31/8 Engineering spec in HM Denova. One reason i chose this spec was for the aoe on the shield guys on Kephess. But most of all i enjoy it a lot. I'm able to place the PP on the bomb guys no problem. I do agree the lack of a pure rotation can get a bit hairy, i also find it exciting. Someone posted in one of the other threads that a Full rakata Lethality sniper with no augs should pull 1600 dps on a dummy... i call bs. Maybe on a strong dummy, which if that's the case then you're doing it wrong. Has to be a champion dummy. I pulled 1430 dps on the champ on my ship (legacy bought dummy) in lethality no stim only 4 class buffs and no cds popped. I also pulled with same stats/buffs 1380 ST in my engineering spec with no cds. these were both done over the course of 2 min both timed with a stop watch. so i lost 50 dps BUT i gain a lot more raid utility, a lot more survivablity, much better energy regeneration and more aoe which as anyone in HM Denova knows there are aoe parts that require attention and i'm loving being able to supply that

[Truescopes]

yeah im using my own 2/31/8 Engineering spec in HM Denova. One reason i chose this spec was for the aoe on the shield guys on Kephess. But most of all i enjoy it a lot. I'm able to place the PP on the bomb guys no problem. I do agree the lack of a pure rotation can get a bit hairy, i also find it exciting. Someone posted in one of the other threads that a Full rakata Lethality sniper with no augs should pull 1600 dps on a dummy... i call bs. Maybe on a strong dummy, which if that's the case then you're doing it wrong. Has to be a champion dummy. I pulled 1430 dps on the champ on my ship (legacy bought dummy) in lethality no stim only 4 class buffs and no cds popped. I also pulled with same stats/buffs 1380 ST in my engineering spec with no cds. these were both done over the course of 2 min both timed with a stop watch. so i lost 50 dps BUT i gain a lot more raid utility, a lot more survivablity, much better energy regeneration and more aoe which as anyone in HM Denova knows there are aoe parts that require attention and i'm loving being able to supply that

 

Well another sniper in my guild is full rakata with 2 or 3 pieces of black hole and he is just over 1,600 dps so 1,600 in full rak is doable.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Truescopes

[marineopferman]

Well another sniper in my guild is full rakata with 2 or 3 pieces of rakata and he is just over 1,600 dps so 1,600 in full rak is doable.

 

Next time go inspect him bet you a bit of credits that his has BH mods in his rakata gear

[Truescopes]

Next time go inspect him bet you a bit of credits that his has BH mods in his rakata gear

 

No, he hasn't. I made a mistake in my post though if you want to read it again.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Truescopes

[Shecrazy]

In full rakata I was pulling 15-1600~ish in leth, its definitely possible. Hell as of my last parses yesterday in BIS augmented gear I'm pulling 1900~Ish on a dummy in lethality. (I can't for the life of me figure out how the simucraft has lethality doing 1770)

 

I also no matter how perfect I get my rotation can't get MM to parse over 1800~ish, basically I'm pulling in lethality what the sims saying I should pull in MM, and in MM I'm pulling what the sim says I should in lethality. Things borked.

[Tibbel]

I can't for the life of me figure out how the simucraft has lethality doing 1770

 

You don't seem to be looking at the most recent sims.

 

There has been more of an effort recently to optimize first the gear and then the action priority list for the sniper specs. It's actually a bit of a contest to see who can come up with the most optimal priority list, so if anyone things they can improve on the numbers in the link above, they should definitely share the list they come up with.

[feday]

I'd love to see a little bit more detail with those DPS claims. A gear indication and a rotation would be great. That would give me something to compare my own gear and DPS against. Edited July 30, 2012 by feday

[Shecrazy]

You don't seem to be looking at the most recent sims.

 

There has been more of an effort recently to optimize first the gear and then the action priority list for the sniper specs. It's actually a bit of a contest to see who can come up with the most optimal priority list, so if anyone things they can improve on the numbers in the link above, they should definitely share the list they come up with.

 

I obviously was looking at the most recent sims *at the time of post*...

 

I know it updated following that post... I'm glad to see the people making it are working to clean up their lethality, funnily enough they redid the stats and it ends up matching mine almost exact. (I have no idea what the actual stat priorities are as I don't do the spreadsheets, I just trial and error on my dummy while expensively swapping mods until I find what works best.)

 

Though I STILL want to know how they're getting MM past 1900, I tried for about 2 weeks to get MM to even match lethality dmg and I cant get it to break an average of 1750-1770 over 5 minutes. No matter how flawless I get my rotation it almost never levels out over 1800 and thats usually just a lucky run with crits. It seems like the only time during the rotation that MM breaks 1900 is during spike damage from OS.

 

I even got another sniper (who consistently outdps's me every week while in MM during raid) to try and get anywhere near 1900 in a 5 minute parse and he also couldn't get it over 1750. I'm really curious what magic that sim is pulling.

 

Also did you notice that the sims have 8% alacrity on the stat sheet in every spec? I wonder why that is.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Shecrazy

[Bikpik]

I obviously was looking at the most recent sims *at the time of post*...

 

I know it updated following that post... I'm glad to see the people making it are working to clean up their lethality, funnily enough they redid the stats and it ends up matching mine almost exact. (I have no idea what the actual stat priorities are as I don't do the spreadsheets, I just trial and error on my dummy while expensively swapping mods until I find what works best.)

 

Though I STILL want to know how they're getting MM past 1900, I tried for about 2 weeks to get MM to even match lethality dmg and I cant get it to break an average of 1750-1770 over 5 minutes. No matter how flawless I get my rotation it almost never levels out over 1800 and thats usually just a lucky run with crits. It seems like the only time during the rotation that MM breaks 1900 is during spike damage from OS.

 

I even got another sniper (one of which consistently outdps's me every week while in MM during raid) to try and get anywhere near 1900 in a 5 minute parse and he also couldn't get it over 1750. I'm really curious what magic that sim is pulling.

 

Also did you notice that the sims have 8% alacrity on the stat sheet in every spec? I wonder why that is.

 

From what I remember, the dummy isn't an accurate, because it doesn't drop below 30% so you can't use takedown on cooldown, the sim doesn't have that problem, I may be wrong though, I haven't used a dummy in a while.

[DSafana]

Also did you notice that the sims have 8% alacrity on the stat sheet in every spec? I wonder why that is.

 

I'm completing my set and since the Surge stat's only replacements(on Enhancements) are either accuracy or Alacrity, I find my self with accuracy and surge stats both being too high. I'm tempted to replace some surge with alacrity, It would speed up the cast times of some of the MM abilities and give better ROI over the wasted surge. I don't find energy to be an issue in MM anymore, so the faster rotation might allow me to get an extra rifle shot into my current rotation. Looking at the stats from above, they have more rifle shots than I usually get in. I could be way off base, I too get much better DPS from Lethality. I just like the feel of MM better and want to max it's potential.