This thread reminds me of how bad the community of this game is. Almost makes me want to play WoW again.

It's actually almost impossible to draw conclusions from 10 parses from a single player, it simply isn't as reliable as a simple mathematically correct model. A couple 3 minute parses doesn't even begin to approach statistical significance. I've swapped from 0 to about 200 now they I've accumulated abit more gear on the basis that the 0 crit rating fad was mostly conjecture and one incomplete spreadsheet over on mmomechanics, the thing about spreadsheets is they don't illustrate natural variance like a fully functioning sim would over 100,000+ iterations. I'm wondering if that while 0 crit rating might yield a better avg, it may do so at the cost of widening the degree of natural variance. So far my results with adding crit have been similar to 0, but as expected with less lows overall. Unfortunately as I stated above, the limited results of one individual are hardly significant. My overall feeling is that much like pre 2.0, the difference between optimized crit rating and unoptimized crit rating is likely to be so small as to once again fall into the area encompassed by natural variance. There seems to be something slightly off with some of your damage distributions in some of these parses as well. Would you mind posting the action priority list you use? Also is there a reason you aren't using DST?

You'd have to head over MMOmechanics and look through the archive of the old annihilation threads to find what I am refering to. It may have been rediscussed in the pts phase of 2.0 as well.

Testing the pvp relics doesn't actually yield any viable information about the pve relics, causing you to jump to a faulty conclusion. The relics are bugged to hell atm, the PvE one share a cooldown but the pvp ones do not, also the on damage proc rate and on heals proc rate aren't linked, making these relics insane for a spec with self heals like annihlation because you can effectively proc each individual relic twice. Partisan SA + Conq SA is the best combo you can hope for atm, abuse it until they decided these bugs are worth fixing.

Malice is the better talent, this was mathed out back as far as pre release. Offhand damage contribution in this game is abysmal.

To give you an idea for comparison in sc/sc2 EAPM (effective apm, ie spamming not counting) using real time and not the slighlty faster game time averages from 200-250 at the professional level with the very high players approaching 300. Making the correct decision for your upcoming gcd is fairly easy in the 1.3-1.7 gcd window alacrity and lag depending. Rogue in WoW has a 1 second GCD. At times like the end of WotLK where the stat budget was super inflated with tons of haste being available playing a mut rogue with a sub 1 second gcd was very rewarding. I always wished MMOs would move towards a 1 second gcd with more abilities off the GCD to bring up the skill cap for players. Sadly it seems the industry standard is the exact opposite =/

High apm in this game is in the mid 40s, thats like silver league in any rts game. The skill cap in an mmo is far too low for apm to matter truthfully.

You showed that lvl 10 target dummy who is the boss, GJ little guy!

He us 100dps ahead of you because he preloads fury, rage, juyo stacks and it looks like he tried to preload annih stacks as annihilator fell off just before he hit his initial annihilate. Alot of marauders do their parses from these record threads like this because there is nothing in the guidelines that precludes it given it is a very class specific set of mechanisms.

Inc more math. So we can use the spreadsheet and some basic math to get a good estimation of the difference between 4 piece vindicators and 4 might 27 armorings. Each armoring sacrifices 33 str over a might 27 for a loss of 132. Using the values in my post above this one, that brings base str down to 1886, bringing the spreadsheets output down to 2101 from 2159. Next we calculate the flat % damage increase the set bonus provides. 5 sec buff uptime on a 12 second cooldown ability provides 5/12 = 0.417 or 41.6% uptime, the buff itself is a 10% increase so 0.417 * 0.1 = 0.0417 lets just be generous and say 4.2% here Now we take that 4.2% and add it into the output of 2101 dps. 2101 * 0.042 +2101 = rounded 2189 dps Now just compare the final vindicators value vs the original might armoring value, 2189 / 2159 = 1.014 rounded up or an overall increase of 1.4% This doesn't factor in that damage doesnt occur evenly, but any delay in use also drops the total estimated bonus of the vind set bonus. Nor does this model factor in the dps lost from both the 2 and 4 PVE setpiece bonus. Even rounding in the vind set bonus favor heavily it should account for a 2% increase by the #s, not 3-5% That being said I can't see myself not getting this set bonus, the increased burst potential for both single target and AoE alone is well worth it on current encounters. The DG Relics were mathed out over in the sage thread on sithwarrior.com as 31 dps over WH relics combined, the click relic at 10 dps and the ele proc relic at 21. EWH relics lower the gap slightly to 26-27 dps from what I can find. Those 2 combined would yield an sim output of 2215, which is a nice little boost.

Mind linking me the build of lucifelB's sheet you are using? Because using that profile with EWH relics with the following unbuffed stats 2018 str 140 wp 1014 pwr 1346 force pwr 300 acc 240 crit 300 surge 336 MH min 505 MH max 336 OH min 505 OH max +an exotech might stim, +128 str +52 pwr I only get an expected output of 2159. All the spreadsheet values are at 0 latency, no arp debuff, cold start with no sub 30% phase and no aoe, and possibly no adrenals implemented so you can't really compare them to boss values, which can have a host of other factors involved. Again I'll I am seeing is gross overestimation of what people think could be done, all evidence puts us 4 months into a tier when most ppl were best in slot by the 3rd week and have had plenty of time to parse. Yet no where do you look and see average results anywhere near 2300+ I'm very confident in my own and a host of other players abilities to push the class/spec within 50 dps of the spreadsheet and even surpass it should the RNG stars align. The only log over 2200 is grossly stacked, (napkin math shows that his 2nd BT alone accounts for 88 dps) and he additionally built 30 fury / 6+ rage prior to the pull and possibly juyo stacks. The crit rating on the log clearly illustrates it is at the top end of RNG in at least 1 aspect, and possibly implies top end RNG on rupture resets as well. Given these factors the log is what you would expect, sims do not output the top end possibility for when the stars align, they give you a realistic statistical avg given the data you feed it. When you purposely stack factors to exaggerate your dps and then parse for hours you should see logs over the spreadsheets output. If you were to alter the spreadsheet to account for all the factors players use that it doesn't you might see 2250-2300 values, but 2400? Not even close and until someone actually puts up some #s like that unarp debuffed, it's vaporware. Too often people mistake their claims without evidence for substance lately, show us the logs or pipe down imo. It is in the communities best interest to care more about what people have done, than what they think / claim they can do.

This appears to be an error on torparses part, the actual log shows plenty of normative values for MS both MH and OH. Torparses stability has been abit strange these last 2 weeks.

I think I figured out why there is such are large discrepancy between the sim #s you are seeing and the ingame numbers. The sim asks from MH-OH Min/Max damage which can be found on the tooltip of your weapons, you are entering the Primary/Secondary damage ranges instead, inflating the numbers quite signifigantly. Just comparing the expected damage ranges the sim gives when using the primary/secondary they are much higher than in game where as using the MH/OH damage info matches up with the ingame values identically. Kinda throws up a bit of a red flag. The sim thread over at sithwarrior.com has screenshots as examples of the functions of the sim, all of which use MH/OH min/max damage. Without contacting the authors I cannot be sure, but this was the only way I was able to reproduce your results. Using the values of EWH relics, (since I don't think these model DG relics), I get a maximum outputs in the range of 2120-2130 using the MH/OH damage ranges. As we are seeing topend parses in the 2150-2200 range, usually preloaded to open with zerk+BT and usually 5min 15sec to accomidate two BTs, this I feel is a more realistic output. *Edit: Checked with lucifelB's sheet, which is what I have always used as well and got the same results, only using primary/secondary damage yielded the 2500+ results, and yielded erroneous damage ranges for all abilities. Using MH/OH vales yielded a more moderate 2170 as well as the damage ranges that matched the ingame tooltips.

Well someone hit 2288 in a 5 min 30 sec log, but it is also resource preloaded both fury and rage and it's double BT on a 5min 30sec parse, kinda stacked in comparison to a cold start 5 min sim would be. Oddly he also uses double EWH relics as well. Sadly it's in german so I can only make a vague analysis of it, but someone mentioned his min damage on annihlate is all wonky, on the time specified log it shows 4800 on the non time specified log it show 0, not really sure what to make of that, the log itself shows plenty of normative ranges both mh and oh. Torparse tanking maybe? Frankly all this wishy washy hold hands and hope crap really isn't my style, OPFOTM could you post the sim you are referring to as well as the action priority list it is using? That would be a good first step on looking at where our missing 300+ dps has gone I think. Heck it would probably be useful to have a couple up to date sims posted in the first post somewhere.

Spoken like someone who has never actually tried to use a log to determine "What went wrong?" Simply put, logs are almost never used in this manner, they simply do not contain enough relevant information in a vast majority of cases. Logs can and are regularly used to get a deeper understanding of mechanics, which can help with strats in a vast number of ways. If you have to run to a log every time a tank dies to spike damage or healing irrecoverably falls behind instead of your raid group being able to communicate these facts, which they should be able to, I feel for you, it would suck to spend more time reading logs than raiding. As to the focus of my post, well that might possibly be because those are the issues most affected by log editing ya? You know the point of this whole thread lol? No one goes in and edits, "Toth hits entire raid group for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, everyone dies" and then runs to the forums calling for a nerf, although I suppose they could. You two sound like a bunch of casuals who think logs are some evil tool of the elitist trying to keep you down. The game gives us hammers, the hammers are broke and your argument is who cares I never liked hammers neway -_-

Well since the parse is right there, all you really need to do to prove/disprove what you think is do a comparison of all the massacre/ataru form hits that occur during gore and not during gore, then calculate the damage reduction that the non gore window strikes are encountering. Without an arp debuff it should be 35% with one it should be 30%. For what it's worth, despite his attitude, vexo has never posted falsified data, vexo uses 2x WH relics so that is why there are not procs/activations. The high crit rating leans itself to the log being on the very high end of RNG but the absence of adrenals is odd, either way if no one has done it by this weekend, I'll take a pass through this log and do the math. Do not however put so much faith in sims in this game, they have never had a huge amount of backing in development or oversight, there simply isn't much of a high end community capable of contributing and checking work in this game as their are in other games. My personal experience is the carnage sim is low, it is possible to use an alternate opener that eliminates the 1 time 2x massacre - force scream gore window in favor of the higher damage and more rage efficient 3x zerked massacre - force scream gore window. This opener eliminates the early damage drop associated with the less optimal gore dump as well as reaches the necessary rage critical mass without trading massacres for assaults early on, resulting in a consistent 2150+ damage output. When testing the crit rating of the Kinetic DG relic vs the Energy DG relic shortly after their release I was able to put out 2150-2185 something like 10 logs in a row using that opener. This level of consistency above what the sim predicts implies the sim may not be entirely accurate. Given that my PC and internet connection are both somewhat average, I doubt I was performing within a fraction of a % of a sim over and over. Sims are just tools, only as accurate as they are fashioned to be, no offense to anyone involved in the coding of said sims. Take a look at the simcraft sniper APL thread over on sithwarrior.com , and you'll see just how much minor improvements to an APL can result in large damage gains.

The post you intended to link supports what I was saying that all 3 GS DoTs count as a DoT for the bonus cull damage, but that this bonus damage is capped at 2 Dots.

The disparity between GS and Sniper which appears to be attributed the virtues of dual wielding has long been a source of unhappiness for me, sniper logs at 2100+ are much rarer than GS ones, and I have yet to see a 2200 sniper log. My rotation is basically 3xDots 2xcull per set + OS on cooldown, this runs the benefit of higher dps core rotation, at the expense of being much more energy heavy. On the surface it may look like adding more fillers would be a pure dps gain but it also runs more risk of dps loss due to over expenditure of energy in pursuit of those fillers. I'm fairly certain I could not add say lazed snipe on cooldown to my rotation without actually losing dps at current. I can't even manage a SoS (my highest prio filler) in every free gap without running the risk of impacting my ability to maintain the core rotation energy regen RNG depending. Akopra to his credit seems to have struck a perfect balance, knowing his APL of fillers near perfectly. Working towards that playstyle is probably optimal, if one has the time, alas I believe it may not be possible for snipers, as all 3 GS DoTs can count towards culls 2x DoT bonus, where as only the poisons do so for Snipers, making it possible to ignore a DoT falling off for GS as long as 2 of the 3 are active. This makes cull on cooldown possible as long as 2x dots are ticking, which would be always for almost any decent player, you then build your rotation around a strict actions priority list trying whilst constantly aiming to stay in the higher energy bracket... Makes me wish I had rolled a GS instead.

Your metrics seem someone off from mine, my carnage parses show 49-54% of carnage's dps coming during gore windows, likewise I've never seen bleed damage coming in over 40% in the presence of an arp debuff. The scaling is still minor admittedly, but most scaling factors are. Carnage can not use VT on cooldown without sacrificing either rage neutrality or massacre buff uptime and holds the additional weakness of VT not being able to proc ataru strikes. Whilst annih uses VT much more in line with on cooldown, takes a smaller sacrifice of subbing VT for VS and the additional benefit of VT not proccing DS and thus making rolling 3 stack DS more common. As for annih having higher potential on the dummy, unrealized potential is just that, unrealized. The dissonance between the posted annihlation results and it's simmed #s point to the sim being unrealistic, until I start seeing consistant 2150s out of annih that aren't all dressed up with resource preloading, exotech stims/adrenals and double BTs on 5min 15sec parses I have a hard time stomaching the 2550 sim results as gospel, the gap is just too wide.

http://www.torparse.com/a/106588/time/1358764102/1358764416/0/Overview Finally finished up my snipers gearing and parsed abit during a bout of insomnia this evening. Leth/Eng hybrid with 300 crit rating, interesting note, as I rolled this character after BM gear was removed, I decided upon using the 5 energy operative bonus, under the assumption that the better uptime spent in higher energy brackets would outshine the sniper pve set bonus, so far I am very happy with the results. Unfortunately I do not have the time, nor to be quite honest do I believe I have the skill / patience to sim out something as complicated as the less tangible benefit from this set bonus but my intuition tells me that it is at least = to the sniper bonus if not better.

This is one thing that seems to be seriously overlooked now a days, carnage may parse higher on an operations dummy, but is scales worse with an arp debuff than annih does, scales much worse sub 30% than annih does ect. The different between specs on current fights is also grossly over exaggerated recently as well, a brief glimpse at the rankings on torparse will show you that both specs are virtually equally represented across the boards on all fights. Often your raid comp and strat make more of a difference on whether a fight favors one spec over the other than the fight mechanics themselves do.

Logs are a valuable tool to individuals and the community of an MMO as a whole, there is a reason the community was up in arms about them not being included in release and biowares eventual compliance with the communities wishes. Log editing is harmful to the community in many ways, http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-976-page-33.html In this thread I expose a log that raised my suspicions upon examining it as being fraudulent, it was performed on a lower armor dummy and than edited, rather simply I might add, to appear as if it was performed on the operations level dummy. This log was submitted as a part of an application to a guilds main raid group. Now to be frank I don't want anyone this disingenuous in my guild, let alone my raid group, it isn't simply about the players ability to perform, it is about their character. Logs are used for competition, to assess personal performance, to compare performance across classes, to test and verify data for statistical models and so on and so forth. All of these are compromised via log editing. Frankly you seemed to have missed the point of this thread entirely. The invalidation of the data this tool supplies can invalidate all of the ways the tool is useful to the community. The fact that the tool doesn't tell you everything about a player, IE if they can move out of the fire or not, hardly invalidates the fact that they are very useful in numerous ways and that the ease at which the data they provide can be manipulated is a serious problem.

Since the log doesn't differentiate between mh/oh strikes it technically could on this fight, given that due to terrible rng no offhand strikes could connect outside of the damage boost phases. However unlikely it is, my point is any fight with such a damage boost phase combined with a dual wielding class is subject to factors that could have you drawing the wrong conclusions. Log editing is a terrible trend, I myself am really outspoken on the matter and have ousted several blatant log edited parses in the last week alone. The only solution sadly is community oversight unless bioware could be convinced of the problem and take action on their end which is sadly unlikely.

Sorry bro but this wasn't a whoops I didn't know the rules situation, this was a I used an arp debuff and then edited it out to try and hide it once I had already been caught. Willful deceit implies intent to cheat in the first place, no one is going to take any log you post now at face value, there will always be questioning that maybe you went in an edited something else.

Edited data, misrepresenting classes potential is terrible for the high end community, regardless of what a thread says you as a player should know that bypassing a period of time where your dps is ramping that is a natural function of your class is disingenuous as is editing out a mistake that cost you dps (not having FC to travel to SC once FB died is just that), but you do it anyway which speaks to poor character in the pursuit of #s Now tell me why should I trust these are the only things your willing to edit or the only lengths your willing to go to to inflate your numbers... now multiply that by an entire community and perhaps you can fathom how detrimental this seemingly growing trend could be for the high end community of an MMORPG Cheating is looked upon very harshly in almost every facet of the real world, I have no idea why you think it would be any different here, and editing a log to inflate your dps and then submitting it for ranking is cheating. Dropping the combat drop is meh, I've done it when looking at data on occasion, always represented as such. Preloading resources, bypassing intended ramp up times, bringing in external debuffs and then not representing the parse as such is a different matter all together and now there have been instances of people straight changing #s, the name of the dummy they are parsing on and editing out mistakes, which is downright despicable.