DarthTHC Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) Yes it is in this case. You are taking the money other people worked on to get (by questing for instance). The difference of cred between the cost of production (mats, etc) and the profit is imaginary in this game. You just think you are entitled to get some money from someone else because you did it. We could all just get money from selling stuff at cost + questing/dailying. Like I do, and I am never lacking money. But enough of my MMO-adapted Marxism. In the sense that exploiting is necessarily breaking the rules of the game or hacking the game's software for one's own benefit, and posting for whatever price I want in the GTN does neither of those, I don't see how it's exploiting. But OK. I don't know that I'm "entitled" to anything. What I do know is that if I make something that adds value to another player's game experience, it sure would be nice if that player in return could add value to my own game experience. The market enables him do that by increasing my net worth just a little bit, and if I do that for enough players, I can do something else nice for myself like buy better gear or a pretty color crystal or a phat vehicle or something from another player, and thereby increase his enjoyment of the game in the same way! Edited July 13, 2012 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavensAgent Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Yes it is in this case.Be careful of your terminology use. Exploiting is a very specific thing in an MMORPG setting, and you are using it incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socialist Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) Be careful of your terminology use. Exploiting is a very specific thing in an MMORPG setting, and you are using it incorrectly. Exploiting has a semantic value that means what I am saying. If also means hacking and stuff in MMO, not my fault. Like those guys who rant when we call ourselves Americans. We are Americans, but Americans can also mean people from the whole continent But indeed, mods can be rather jumpy. I'll be more careful. Edited July 13, 2012 by Socialist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlexGlabra Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 None of it is still not as bad as the dude on my server who advertizes to make the stuff if you bring him 100k and the mats.Why is that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandamanno Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Why is your price correct and others lower price not correct? What you really are asking for is for all the suppliers of a product to collude together in order to charge the absolute maximum price that the market will tolerate (or your own version of that price). AKA collusion. It's illegal in any fair market that I am aware of and it doesn't work in an mmo economy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Why is your price correct and others lower price not correct? What you really are asking for is for all the suppliers of a product to collude together in order to charge the absolute maximum price that the market will tolerate (or your own version of that price). AKA collusion. It's illegal in any fair market that I am aware of and it doesn't work in an mmo economy either. It's not illegal in the United States of America for cable companies to do this. This is why I have one option for cable and including cable, two options for high-speed Internet. They may not call it "collusion", but that's what is happening. I agree that this absolutely fails in MMOs though. People will price below materials cost for a wide variety of reasons. You can't compete with that. All you can do is buy them out and repost and hope they're not doing it because they were one of the billionaire currency exploiters that happened early in the game's life, doing it to wreak havoc with crafters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calerxes Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hey! wait a minute I thought there was no economy in SW:TOR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavensAgent Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hey! wait a minute I thought there was no economy in SW:TOR?You are correct, there really isn't; a simulated economy is not really an economy at all. I can't wait to start a true merchant empire in Pathfinder Online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calerxes Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 You are correct, there really isn't; a simulated economy is not really an economy at all. I can't wait to start a true merchant empire in Pathfinder Online. Can you expand on why its a simulated economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrVile Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Then buy them and repost. This. I think people forget that it's an auction house, and not a retail store where prices are set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanni Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I sell my items at the price I want to sell them at. I never bother to check what the current market price is, I just list them at what I think is a fair price. If they don't sell immediately, oh well, you get your deposit back so you haven't lost anything. It is through this method of selling companion gifts that I make around one million credits a week doing practically nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJS Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 WaldoA, since the material costs of making an augment is around 45,000 credits, you're still making 100% profit even if you have to lower your selling cost to 90k If you sell it for less than 85k, you could make more money selling the raw materials. The GTN takes 5% of your sale. To break even on 85k worth of materials, you have to list it for about 89,500. As someone who makes credits selling augments and augment kits, I have to agree with DarthTHC here. It may be that the market is different on the server MarmicMocius plays on, but Darth's price breakdown mirrors my own server prices. As for the original topic, I've always felt that people arguing that other people should price items a certain way are backseat drivers. If the price is too low, then either you have confidence in your pricing, in which case you should buy the item and repost it, or you don't have confidence in your pricing. Basically, it looks odd when you're telling someone else to bet on your pricing being right when you don't have the confidence to bet on your pricing. And if the claim is that the prices are too high, by all means, crank out the product yourself and price it according to what you think is the right price. This kind of reminds me of a line from Dilbert, where the boss said something to the effect that he does the hard work, so anything he doesn't know how to do must be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBBP Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Why is that bad? My apologies for not being clear. Not bad as in "breaking the rules", but bad as in "Incredibly lame and doosh-like.". It's an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavensAgent Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Can you expand on why its a simulated economy?I could write a paper on it (business major), but to keep it short a simulated economy is one where the monetary unit has no real value. A credit does not represent an actual resource in the game. There's no limit to the number of credits that are generated, nor is there any governing factors that determine a credit's worth. Similarly, the cost of items in the game does not reflect the worth of the basic monetary unit; a vendor item costs the same regardless of the economic state of the server. A sign that a game boasts a simulated economy is that it requires one or more money sinks. A true economy doesn't need such systems, as it is self-balancing in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 So, I sold 3 Advanced Skill augment 22's on the GTN for 130k each earlier, after I made a few more, someone was sellling one for 130k so I put mines up for 129k, then I check back later, and unlike me reducing price 1k, people have been putting up sales for 130k 120k 105k 90k, why oh why? They sell fast enough, there's really no need to drop them so much in price it's just not needed.. As im being pretty specific about it being Advanced Skill aug 22, I'd imagine this goes on for alot of other items in-game... Anyway, had some time to kill so figured i'd vent a little heat on the forums Augment prices are utterly rediculous.. They shouldn't cost any more than any other mod.. It is sad that you wish to continue to price gouge the community with those prices.. They need to be around 40 to 60k.. Anymore is simply robbery.. They goodness for guilds.. You can't beat free or just help out with the mats.. A month or so ago, I made augmented sabers and blasters for everyone in my guild.. Didn't ask for anything in return.. Now I am being showered with kits and the augments I need and they are not asking for anything in return.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datku Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Sometimes white hat players will cut prices even at a lost when others are profiteering. Some profit is not a bad thing but when you see people listing at 10x even 20x the cost to make something two types of people come out. Those that want to jump on the inflated costs to profit. Generally these people will keep the costs high as long as they can. Then you have the people that purposely undercut to drive prices down. At one time on my old server stim costs were out the roof. Talking 30-50k per proto-type stim. That is crazy. I actually leveled biochem up because I was tried of paying such high prices. Once I got to 300 and saw they were still so inflated I used the 30k to buy the diplomacy mats in stacks of 99. Then crafted and dumped them on the market for 12k per. I am sure some of the inflators bought mine out to resell at their inflated prices and others scooped them up at the bargain prices. I as still making enough that I could go buy stacks of mats and list another 20+ stims at 12k vrs the 40k others where wanting. It only took about 2 days before the "standard" cost for proto-type stims to drop down to the 12-15k range. To me that was a perfectly acceptable cost and the profiteers moved else where because even up to merges...I mean transfers proto-type stims never inflated back up where they had been. Sure I was hated by some crafters for killing the market but they were pushing costs way to high so I crashed their market Saw the same thing happen shortly after 1.3 with the augment kits. They went from 250-300k per down to 65k in two days by someone else doing something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavensAgent Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Augment prices are utterly rediculous.. They shouldn't cost any more than any other mod.. It is sad that you wish to continue to price gouge the community with those prices.. They need to be around 40 to 60k.. Anymore is simply robbery..The prices for Augments will remain high so long as people continue to buy them at an inflated cost. Your guild solution is they way to go if you wish to combat these prices, either internally or on a server-wide scale, but unless you can spread the items to the entire server population you won't be able to make a significant impact on the price as a whole. The simple fact is there are too many people with an overabundance of credits in the game. This allows them to pay the inflated prices, thereby maintaining, or even raising, the price for the items; Skill Augments appear to be increasing in price on Jung Ma. Two weeks ago I sold some around the 100K mark, this week I was able to go as high as 186K, and that was undercutting the current top price by a good 10K. I craft for my guild mates at cost, of course, and free if they provide the mats, but otherwise I sell my items to fund other aspects of the game. As such I'm going to maximize my profits as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavensAgent Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Sure I was hated by some crafters for killing the market but they were pushing costs way to high so I crashed their market Saw the same thing happen shortly after 1.3 with the augment kits. They went from 250-300k per down to 65k in two days by someone else doing something similar.In fairness, I don't think you fully understand the situation with Augmentation Kits. No one was actively attempting to crash the market on them. Their availability simply increased; Augmentation Kits are Produced in a very short amount of time with readily-available and inexpensive components. This caused the market to naturally flood through normal competition, rather than some concerted effort to drop the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well OP, there is another factor to consider and that is that blue 22's are almost 100K cheaper and the difference in the attribs is only one point. What guildies and others have started doing is buying all blues. It makes sense given the cost of aug kits and the actual augmentation. In short, there are other factors driving price points down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWoad Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 So, I sold 3 Advanced Skill augment 22's on the GTN for 130k each earlier, after I made a few more, someone was sellling one for 130k so I put mines up for 129k, then I check back later, and unlike me reducing price 1k, people have been putting up sales for 130k 120k 105k 90k, why oh why? They sell fast enough, there's really no need to drop them so much in price it's just not needed.. As im being pretty specific about it being Advanced Skill aug 22, I'd imagine this goes on for alot of other items in-game... Anyway, had some time to kill so figured i'd vent a little heat on the forums You undercut someone by 1k. Yeah its called business but you dont have to be a total noob about it. I see people sell stuff for 109,999c after the highest one was 110,000c. If you want credits fast, put a cheaper price. You're much better selling it for 20k less than 1k less in the long run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSaberMaster Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Lol. I always sell my stuff at 10 to 20k below the lowest price on the vendor to ensure I get a sale. i never buy my mats off the GTN. I actually go out myself and aquire what I need. If it isn't something that can be gathered in the wild, then I will do the crew skill mission to get what I need. Some of those resource prices are ridiculous and I refuse to pay them. Especially when I have just about every crafting/gathering skill maxed out. So every thing I do sell is pretty much 85 to 95% profit depending on my luck with crew skill missions. Hell. The reason why I even have all of those crafting skills is so I won't get prison-***** by the gougers by making my own stuff. I have no problems with somebody trying to make a profit. But when people go out of their way to try and extort you for every credit that they can? Damn right I'll undercut you and won't feel one bit of pity for you lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawginole Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I made almost 20 million in three days when 1.3 hit selling the Augment Slots by doing this very thing. I call it the Wal-Mart Economic Plan. Say the Augmentors were going for 150k each. I would offer 14, for 1,500,000 which significantly reduces the price per unit. Trick was, you had to buy all 14. I list individual items on the GTN to sell them quickly. It's cheaper to put the item up for the shortest auction length, so I make sure they sell by cutting the price. 20 years ago every retailer complained that Wal Mart was selling things too quickly. Why pay 20 bucks for a basketball at sports store when you can get it at wal mart for 12. Personally I don't really care if it kills the value. And I really don't care if I am taking money from someone by doing it. That's economics. I generally only 1 or 2 items on the GTN in a given category, so I rarely get burned. /Thread What I read from the OP was that he was reducing prices to beat his competition and someone else came along and beat him and now the OP is upset that his revenue stream was reduced. But the OP is also guilty of reducing his competitions revenue stream. You just can't have it both ways. Crafters and resellers (if they are smart) will consider sunk cost + material investment and current market value. What remains is revenue. As sunk cost (investment which cannot be refunded to the investor, which in an MMO is usually a factor of time) is reduced as players find more efficient ways to obtain materials, and material cost is reduced, market value will also be reduced as market supply increases. When a new item, like augment slots for example, hits the market, supply is limited and sunk costs and material investment is high, thus market value is high and the revenue stream is high. After 1.2 I spent 2 full days searching for all mat spawns for Magenta crystals. Sunk cost was extremely high. Now schems are in high supply and materials are in medium to high supply. Critical and Endurance crystals have dropped from 1.5 mil a pop to 130k a pop. The revenue stream is drastically reduced, but my sunk costs are lower and my materials cost is lower. Whereas my revenue stream on the Power +41 variety is still high as the schem comes from a high level world boss and so supply is still low. The problem in crafting is one found in all areas of economy for new products and it shows that the market economy in SWTOR is working as intended. Crafters need to stay on the cutting edge of new products or high demand products. Those that must have the best as soon as it is available will pay higher prices and crafters will make high revenue creds. Consider that mods from Campaign gear are going for 500k a piece currently. In six months time when more crafters have RE'd those schems those same items will be 100k. My appologies to the OP for his revenue stream being reduced, but that is simply the market working as intended. Jump on the next high demand product, currently purple color crystals and campaign mods and you'll be right back on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatB Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) So, I sold 3 Advanced Skill augment 22's on the GTN for 130k each earlier, after I made a few more, someone was sellling one for 130k so I put mines up for 129k, They want to make it harder for you to undercut them by 1k again. This. You apparently started the undercutting. They were apparently willing to match your price. Me, personally, I play often enough that I'm fine putting things up for short duration and am "fair" enough that I simply rematch your new lower price if you undercut me. But I'll admit that I'm tempted when somebody like you starts a price war, to simply cut to the chase and immediately drop to the lowest price I'm wiling to sell for. That's apparently where it's heading anyways. And P.S. as to the 130k for an augment. Mine are currently on sale for ~200k. If I run out of stock/mats, I bump up the price when I can finally make more. If I have too many mats, I drop the price. Even with many of my slicers running parts missions, I'm having trouble stayin in stock. So price keeps going up. I believe that's basically known as supply and demand. (edit: And P.S. since I have all the augmentor crafts covered, I put them up for sale at the same price. if one doesn't sell at that price, then, well. I don't have to replace it. Now sure, I could simply keep track of which ones sell at a lower price, and then simply not waste my mats on those ones anymore, but if/when enough people do that, the cost for 'em will presumably go back up to the same as the others... and then they may end up buying the ones I've just been leaving there. Edited July 13, 2012 by GnatB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatB Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Yes it is in this case. You are taking the money other people worked on to get (by questing for instance). The difference of cred between the cost of production (mats, etc) and the profit is imaginary in this game. You just think you are entitled to get some money from someone else because you did it. We could all just get money from selling stuff at cost + questing/dailying. Like I do, and I am never lacking money. Sure, but then, you're exploting those quest givers to get the credits from them. A lot of the crafting in this game is probably more "work" than doing those dailies, due to how RE works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeterno Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) I understand people undercutting, what I don't understand is people undercutting by throwing 2 pages of items up at the undercut price lol. That's not smart as people start undercutting you and the price doesnt have a chance to recover above the flood point like it normaly would as it fluctuates. You're basically lowering the bar for everyone including yourself. Putting auctions up one at a time gets you fast sells and maximezes your profit. Edited July 13, 2012 by aeterno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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