Gear Guidelines for Pyro Merc?

[TheLoneSage]

At 49 myself, just about to hit 50, I recently just switched from Aresenal to Pyrotech (Smartest decision I've ever made.)

 

But now that I'm about to reach 50, I'm wondering what stats I should be stacking for Pyro?

[T-Assassin]

At 49 myself, just about to hit 50, I recently just switched from Aresenal to Pyrotech (Smartest decision I've ever made.)

 

But now that I'm about to reach 50, I'm wondering what stats I should be stacking for Pyro?

 

don't "stack" anything, except AIM. easy to do thru augments and "reflex" armoring.

 

then, a decent balance between crit, power, and surge is what i would shoot for.

 

off the top of my head, 500+power, 35% crit, 75% surge.

Edited July 13, 2012 by T-Assassin

[TheLoneSage]

 

don't "stack" anything, except AIM. easy to do thru augments and "reflex" armoring.

 

then, a decent balance between crit, power, and surge is what i would shoot for.

 

off the top of my head, 500+power, 35% crit, 75% surge.

 

Alright mate, I appreciate it. ^^

[T-Assassin]

Alright mate, I appreciate it. ^^

 

np. PM me if you have any other questions.

 

i've always responded, and i try my best to help. not saying i'm always right, but...

 

i am most of the time

Edited July 13, 2012 by T-Assassin

[clearsighted]

If Pyro is what you want to play, I'd reroll as vanguard before spending too much time and sweat gearing up.

 

The only really unique experience to merc is Bodyguard or Arsenal. Bodyguard is second best PvP heals (abeit first is waaay ahead and third is a fraction of an inch behind), and Arsenal is much better than Pyro for PvE damaging, yet sucks in PvP.

 

Only reason to go Pyro is PvP, but why not just play a vanguard, in which pyro is so incredibly superior in so many deeply fundamental ways? Even on my merc, I don't pvp as Pyro, even though it's better, cause it makes me so angry knowing how much better the vanguard version is. Such amazingly greater synergy, even down to stuff like auto-application of your combustion DoT with instant flame burst, which procs your rail shot at the same time.

 

The difference in damage, over relying on channelled power shot or unload, is extraordinary.

Edited July 14, 2012 by clearsighted

[T-Assassin]

If Pyro is what you want to play, I'd reroll as vanguard before spending too much time and sweat gearing up.

 

The only really unique experience to merc is Bodyguard or Arsenal. Bodyguard is second best PvP heals (abeit first is waaay ahead and third is a fraction of an inch behind), and Arsenal is much better than Pyro for PvE damaging, yet sucks in PvP.

 

Only reason to go Pyro is PvP, but why not just play a vanguard, in which pyro is so incredibly superior in so many deeply fundamental ways? Even on my merc, I don't pvp as Pyro, even though it's better, cause it makes me so angry knowing how much better the vanguard version is. Such amazingly greater synergy, even down to stuff like auto-application of your combustion DoT with instant flame burst, which procs your rail shot at the same time.

 

The difference in damage, over relying on channelled power shot or unload, is extraordinary.

 

do not listen to anything this guy has to say.

 

not trying to be a dick, but this post is 99% WRONG.

 

if you want to play ranked PvP, reroll PT/VG...

 

everything else, is just plain false.

 

i kill arsenal Merc's 100% of the time in PvP...they are too easy to LoS.

 

in PvE...well, i'm more mobile while still producing excellent DPS, and after 30%...i pull agro a bunch!!! (mobility is overlooked. try LI as an arsenal vs pyro...while a well played arsenal can do well, i will out DPS them on any fight where mobility is necessary)

 

if you like the playstyle, Merc/PT is pretty awesome...if you can stand in place and cast, arsenal is good...

 

Merc/PT is an awesome class!!!! yes, even in PvP!!!

 

PT/VG just does it better, faster, currently.

Edited July 14, 2012 by T-Assassin

[HeVans_]

do not listen to anything this guy has to say.

 

not trying to be a dick, but this post is 99% WRONG.

 

if you want to play ranked PvP, reroll PT/VG...

 

everything else, is just plain false.

 

i kill arsenal Merc's 100% of the time in PvP...they are too easy to LoS.

 

in PvE...well, i'm more mobile while still producing excellent DPS, and after 30%...i pull agro a bunch!!! (mobility is overlooked. try LI as an arsenal vs pyro...while a well played arsenal can do well, i will out DPS them on any fight where mobility is necessary)

 

if you like the playstyle, Merc/PT is pretty awesome...if you can stand in place and cast, arsenal is good...

 

Merc/PT is an awesome class!!!! yes, even in PvP!!!

 

PT/VG just does it better, faster, currently.

 

I am considering trying pyro in PvE, my only question is: what set bonus is best? Is it best to re-mod and augment a set of PvP eliminator gear for the railshot crit? My thinking is yes. Another option is the combat tech 8% railshot damage, but mathematically it has been proven that the 15% crit is better for sustained dps.

 

At the moment I am in a min/maxed arsenal build for PvE with over 1100 power, 2250 aim, and keeping the other cookie cutter stats. I am currently using the PvE eliminator 4-set which is obviously very nice for arsenal, but the only real bonus to pyro would be the 15% power shot crit, which although nice seems outweighed by other possibilities in pyro.

 

What do you use?

Edited July 16, 2012 by HeVans_

[Choffware]

I go back and forth on this all the time. But basically the pve bonuses are probably best for pve because it gives you the best sustained dps and the pvp bonuses is probably best for pvp because of better burst and slightly better utility. I would love to have the first pve bonus PLUS the second pvp bonus but we can't so...

[HeVans_]

I go back and forth on this all the time. But basically the pve bonuses are probably best for pve because it gives you the best sustained dps and the pvp bonuses is probably best for pvp because of better burst and slightly better utility. I would love to have the first pve bonus PLUS the second pvp bonus but we can't so...

 

the only use of the pve Eliminator set is the 2 piece for 15% power shot crit. the 4 piece is irrelevant.

 

the only use of the pve combat tech set is the 4 piece for 8% railshot damage, the 2 piece is irrelevant.

 

the 4 piece pvp bonus will give 15% rail shot crit.

 

For PvE It would be a flip up between the combat tech pve and the eliminator pvp, i wouldn't even touch the pve eliminator.

[Gyronamics]

the only use of the pve Eliminator set is the 2 piece for 15% power shot crit. the 4 piece is irrelevant.

 

the only use of the pve combat tech set is the 4 piece for 8% railshot damage, the 2 piece is irrelevant.

 

the 4 piece pvp bonus will give 15% rail shot crit.

 

For PvE It would be a flip up between the combat tech pve and the eliminator pvp, i wouldn't even touch the pve eliminator.

 

No, that is very wrong.

 

Here's the sets:

 

Combat Tech PVE: 2pc doesn't work, 4pc = 8% railshot dmg

Eliminator PVE: 2pc = 15% powershot crit, 4pc = 8 heat less on railshot

Eliminator PVP = 2pc = knockback cd crap, 4pc = 15% railshot crit

 

Now THIS is what the damage piechart of a heavily geared pyro looks like:

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-07-02_15_48_37_156250.txt

 

Note how many powershots are cast.

 

Note how many railshots.

 

That's 2:1 powershots to railshots. Not a fixed number, can be as low as 3:2 depending on luck of procs.

 

If you care do do the maths, 15% crit on powershots when you use so many of them is better than 8% damage or 15% crit on railshots when you use far less of them.

 

The fact that the 4pc bonus from Eliminator PVE also makes your railshots totally free is just a bonus.

 

 

TL:DR

 

The set to wear for Pyro Merc is Eliminator PVE for PVE

Edited July 16, 2012 by Gyronamics

[T-Assassin]

No, that is very wrong.

 

Here's the sets:

 

Combat Tech PVE: 2pc doesn't work, 4pc = 8% railshot dmg

Eliminator PVE: 2pc = 15% powershot crit, 4pc = 8 heat less on railshot

Eliminator PVP = 2pc = knockback cd crap, 4pc = 15% railshot crit

 

Now THIS is what the damage piechart of a heavily geared pyro looks like:

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-07-02_15_48_37_156250.txt

 

Note how many powershots are cast.

 

Note how many railshots.

 

That's 2:1 powershots to railshots. Not a fixed number, can be as low as 3:2 depending on luck of procs.

 

If you care do do the maths, 15% crit on powershots when you use so many of them is better than 8% damage or 15% crit on railshots when you use far less of them.

 

The fact that the 4pc bonus from Eliminator PVE also makes your railshots totally free is just a bonus.

 

 

TL:DR

 

The set to wear for Pyro Merc is Eliminator PVE for PVE

 

good!! i don't have to go searching for my parses , everything you have ^^^ i agree with 1000%!!

 

Power shot is my #1 damage dealer in PvE, by quite a bit...

[HeVans_]

You guys are not considering a vital point, which is that if your railshots/HiBs don't crit the 30% talented surge is worth nothing. Yes you will be casting more power shots than railshots. I am going to try and show you guys that there is NO mathematical difference between taking a 15% crit boost to railshot or power shot, and also why the railshot crit would be preferable.

 

ROUGH THEORETICAL PARSE

 

Taking your parse as being 100% legitimate, you are casting 2 Power Shots per Rail shot.

 

I am going to assume numbers from my own testing for the damage of both abilities.

 

My gear looks like this, which is very close to being BIS (according to you guys) for a pyro (it is BIS for arsenal).

 

From a few rounds on a test dummy, fully buffed with an exotech stim, I have come up with some rough numbers for average damage or powershot/railshot. I have rounded them down to the nearest hundred just for the ease of this:

 

((NOTE: THESE NUMBERS COMPLETELY IGNORE MISSED ATTACKS FROM MAIN HAND OR OFFHAND. THIS WILL BE CONSIDERED LATER))

 

Powershot:

 

AVG non crit damage: 1700

AVG crit damage: 3100

 

Railshot:

 

AVG non crit damage: 2200

AVG crit damage: 4600

 

Now assume we are going to use 200 powershots for every 100 railshots. I also want to consider a case where without any set bonuses we are going to have 35% ranged crit chance, which is realistic.

 

CASE 1: with the PvE we have 50% power shot crit, and 35% railshot crit.

 

Out of 200 powershots, 100 crit and 100 don't crit.

Out of 100 railshots, 35 crit and 65 don't crit.

 

Total damage: (100*1700+100*3100) + (65*2200+35*4600) = 778,000

 

CASE 2 : with the PvP we have 50% railshot crit and 35% power shot crit.

 

Out of 200 powershots, 70 crit and 130 don't crit.

Out of 100 railshots, 50 crit and 50 don't crit.

 

Total damage: (130*1700+70*3100) + (50*2200+50*4600) = 778,000

 

So as you can see, on paper there is no difference between the two set bonuses, the REASON I suggested the PvP over the PvE is the simple fact that Power Shot's damage is extremely unreliable, the offhand hits will miss frequently. Railshot is mainhand in terms of ranged accuracy and will rarely if ever miss if you are geared properly.

 

I will get a set of black-hole modded PvP gear together just to show that the dps is equivalent to being the same. ANOTHER benefit of having more sustained railshot crits is the fact that you can use them on the move. How often in denova hardmode do you have the luxury of being abelt o sit there and spam powershot? I can tell you from experience that I would really prefer my railshots to deliver more 'umph' while on the run from a pesky assassin droid in the middle of a minefield or running between the railshot droids on kephess.

 

ACCURACY

 

Now let us consider the case of accuracy. In my current gear set-up I have 5 enhancements, each with 57 accuracy on. The other two enhancements have power/surge. My ranged accuracy is 101.39% mainhand, 68% (cant remember exact I am not at my pc right now) offhand. I take this to be a roughly optimal set-up, as without those 2 surge enhancements you drop below 70% multiplier, which I personally hate.

 

It has been confirmed that bosses have a flat 10% defence rating, so my mainhand atacks have a 8.61% chance to miss and my offhand attacks have a roughly 42% chance to miss.

 

So we parsed 778k damage earlier from 200 powershots and 100 railshots, ignoring any misses and showing that in this perfect scenario the set bonuses are completely identical in terms of damage. Let us have a look at what happens when we apply some misses to both mainhand and offhand attacks.

 

Out of 200 power shots, (200*0.086=17.2) 17 main hand attacks will miss.

Out of 200 power shots, (200*0.42=84) 84 offhand attacks will miss.

Out of 100 railshots, (100*0.086 =8.6) 9 railshots will completely miss.

 

Let us quantify this such that our previous count of 200 powershots and 100 railshots is effecively (though still using the same number of gcds) 91 railshots, 183 main hand power shots, and 116 offhand power shots.

 

Now the hard part is to work out how much damage on average comes from the mainhand and offhand hits of power shot, let me update my post a bit later once I have got home and done some more damage testing. I am going to include an extremely rough estimate of how dps loss is affected just from memory:

 

From my experience, the offhand damage on a power shot is somewhere between 300 and 400, so let's say 350 damage is the average for a non-crit power shot offhand contribution, applying 75% surge to this it seems logical that if it crits, the offhand will deal (350*1.75=612.5) roughly 600 damage.

 

(For the record, offhand rolls are done seperately from mainhand in terms of hit/miss, does anyone know if the crit chance is rolled seperately? or if the mainhand crits does the offhand crit automatically? I am going to assume they are separate rolls for this, correct me if I am wrong)

 

Now let us do a slightly more detailed parse of what is going on in the two cases we have considered, including hits/misses.

 

SLIGHTLY LESS ROUGH THEORETICAL PARSE

 

Out of 200 MH power shots, (200*0.086=17.2) 17 will miss, 183 will hit.

Out of 200 OH power shots, (200*0.42=84) 84 will miss, 116 will hit.

Out of 100 railshots, (100*0.086 =8.6) 9 will miss, 91 will hit.

 

CASE 1: with the PvE we have 50% power shot crit, and 35% railshot crit.

 

Out of 183 MH power shots, 91 will crit and 91 won't crit (just trying to keep numbers even here)

Out of 116 OH power shots, 58 will crit and 58 won't crit

Out of 91 railshots, 32 will crit, 59 won't crit.

 

I will be calculating new main hand damages for power shot too, just on the fly.

 

Total damage: (91*1350+91*2500) + (58*350+58*600) + (59*2200+32*4600) = 680k

 

CASE 2 : with the PvP we have 50% railshot crit and 35% power shot crit.

 

Out of 183 MH power shots, 64 will crit and 119 won't crit (just trying to keep numbers even here)

Out of 116 OH power shots, 40 will crit and 76 won't crit

Out of 91 railshots, 45 will crit,46 won't crit.

 

Total damage: (119*1350+64*2500) + (76*350+40*600) + (45*2200+45*4600) = 680k

 

Sorry to make such a long post but I just wanted to share some proofs that these two set bonuses make no difference in terms of damage, and you must consider that concentrating more on power shot rather than railshot is just bad, because ~20% of power shot damage comes from your offhand, which has around a 40% chance to miss on bossfights.

Edited July 17, 2012 by HeVans_

[Gyronamics]

Well I must show my proof too.

 

I'll show a screen of the spreadsheet I made to work out the average damage per hit when considering just Powershot and Railshot

 

The logic is that if the average hit is higher in one set then the total damage output is greater.

 

It considers crit rate, surge, talented surge boost, damage boosts from being on fire, armour on the target, armour penetration

 

Accuracy is considered at 100% no misses. Why?

 

Because I have 99.89% accuracy and these attacks do not in any meaningful way miss on a boss unless they have unique phase shields.

 

You may examine this log here and see for yourself that they do not miss: http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-07-12_18_31_36_294125.txt#22_58_56_564000

 

Only misses worth considering are from default attack which is irrelevant in this.

 

So, proof.

 

http://s13.postimage.org/j95t469l3/tmp.jpg

 

 

So the AVERAGE hit (the mean)

 

- considering Powershot and Railshot only

- vs zero armour

- vs 35% damage reduction (and considering Railshot armour pen)

- 35% crit rate (50% when in eliminator for Powershot)

- 75% multiplier (including 30% more for Railshot)

 

Is 60-100 damage higher in Eliminator if procs are poor and you have a 2:1 Powershot to Railshot ratio

Is 20-60 damage higher in Eliminator if procs are good and you have a 3:2 Powershot to Railshot ratio

 

On top of that there is the bonus of Railshot costing 8 less heat (when it's not free)

 

I believe my logic and maths are solid on this.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Gyronamics

[ThePesh]

Ranged accuracy only applies to rapid shots, all the other weapon abilities are special attacks and have 10% higher base accuracy. Mouseover the ranged accuracy readout to see this.

 

All offhand attacks use weapon damage only, no increase from aim, power or the ability itself.

 

Just some random info

[Gyronamics]

Ranged accuracy only applies to rapid shots, all the other weapon abilities are special attacks and have 10% higher base accuracy. Mouseover the ranged accuracy readout to see this.

 

There are two types of attack for merc, ranged (default 90% accuracy) and tech (default 100% accuracy).

 

When thinking about Pyro, the following are ranged attacks: Powershot, Railshot, Unload, default attack

 

Tech attacks are the DoTs, Grenades, Fusion missile, Incendiary Missile

 

So Ranged Accuracy is not just Rapid shots.

[Sookster]

There are two types of attack for merc, ranged (default 90% accuracy) and tech (default 100% accuracy).

 

When thinking about Pyro, the following are ranged attacks: Powershot, Railshot, Unload, default attack

 

Tech attacks are the DoTs, Grenades, Fusion missile, Incendiary Missile

 

So Ranged Accuracy is not just Rapid shots.

 

Reading through combat logs from HM's and operations, the most affected attack by accuracy is rapid shots, power shot also suffers it but not as bad as rapid shots, in one fight 77% of rapid shots hit the boss and power shot hit 90% of the time and unload 96%. Railshot however was 100% through all the fights, in pvp however when facing players that pops high defense (deflection, saber ward, etc) railshot will miss, I think railshot has a high inheret accuracy which might be why it practically never misses in pve.

 

Default attacks for every class is the most significantly affected ability, but don't forget the offhand also has an inheret accuracy penalty (for whatever reason).

Edited July 17, 2012 by Sookster

[HeVans_]

You are all quite wrong. Offhand misses from powershots occur around 42% of the time as I said, I dont know what you mean with 'phase shields' but its known from devs that bosses have 10% defence for any non tech attack. If you read my calcs accuaracy means nothing here. Dont post stupid graphs when you don't understand them. Tell me what is wrong with my maths or just accept that I am correct.

[Gyronamics]

There is an important difference between my character and yours.

 

I'm Republic.

 

I use one weapon and fire one shot for Charged Bolts (Powershot) and one for High Impact Bolt (Railshot).

 

It sounds like Mercs are firing two shots for Powershot (and the one from the offhand is more inaccurate) but still one for Railshot (from the mainhand) which is why Railshot misses less.

 

You are all quite wrong. Offhand misses from powershots occur around 42% of the time as I said, I dont know what you mean with 'phase shields' but its known from devs that bosses have 10% defence for any non tech attack. If you read my calcs accuaracy means nothing here. Dont post stupid graphs when you don't understand them. Tell me what is wrong with my maths or just accept that I am correct.

 

Have you looked at my "stupid graphs"?

 

My Powershot (Charged Bolts) and Railshot (High Impact Bolt) are not missing on boss fights.

 

Now I'm presuming here, that the devs have worked it out so that the misses that Mercs do are not gimping their damage. Also that what I do in a Commando is mathematically identical to what you do as a Merc.

 

Because the alternative is ridiculous.

 

So actually, why don't you examine my maths because I'm getting more accurate data since I don't have to factor misses (which you admit you don't have numbers for) into the calculation.

 

You also didn't add the armour penetration of Railshot to your damage calculations which really does affect damage done. I show 0 and 35% damage reduction numbers with Railshot ignoring a portion of that armour.

 

I know you didn't read my post because you'd have seen I was calculating the PVE sets of Combat Tech and Eliminator.

 

I however read yours. Yours actually is about Eliminator PVP and PVE.

 

So I have added Eliminator PVP to my spreadsheet.

 

These are the numbers, damage reduction from armour is 35% and includes 60% penetration by Railshot.

 

http://s16.postimage.org/jxm1wp8zp/tmp.jpg

 

I'd put a TLDR here but I'd rather you did read the results yourself.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Gyronamics

[HeVans_]

There is an important difference between my character and yours.

 

I'm Republic.

 

I use one weapon and fire one shot for Charged Bolts (Powershot) and one for High Impact Bolt (Railshot).

 

It sounds like Mercs are firing two shots for Powershot (and the one from the offhand is more inaccurate) but still one for Railshot (from the mainhand) which is why Railshot misses less.

 

 

 

Have you looked at my "stupid graphs"?

 

My Powershot (Charged Bolts) and Railshot (High Impact Bolt) are not missing on boss fights.

 

Now I'm presuming here, that the devs have worked it out so that the misses that Mercs do are not gimping their damage. Also that what I do in a Commando is mathematically identical to what you do as a Merc.

 

Because the alternative is ridiculous.

 

So actually, why don't you examine my maths because I'm getting more accurate data since I don't have to factor misses (which you admit you don't have numbers for) into the calculation.

 

You also didn't add the armour penetration of Railshot to your damage calculations which really does affect damage done. I show 0 and 35% damage reduction numbers with Railshot ignoring a portion of that armour.

 

I know you didn't read my post because you'd have seen I was calculating the PVE sets of Combat Tech and Eliminator.

 

I however read yours. Yours actually is about Eliminator PVP and PVE.

 

So I have added Eliminator PVP to my spreadsheet.

 

These are the numbers, damage reduction from armour is 35% and includes 60% penetration by Railshot.

 

http://s16.postimage.org/jxm1wp8zp/tmp.jpg

 

I'd put a TLDR here but I'd rather you did read the results yourself.

 

Yes you are republic, and the merc power shot has a higher degree of RNG than the commando charged bolts. My point still stands. If the two set bonuses are mathematically identical in every way (which your spreadsheet actually confirms, not denies) it is 'logical' to take the PvP one, because you can use railshot on the move, and for mercs, it is a more reliable attack.

 

Does your spreadsheet not agree with my maths? you got identical results within 3 damage average (this is not significant, as it is far less than 1 standard deviation would be) for the PvP and PvE eliminator sets.

 

Armor pen is essentially irrelivant in my calculations - I have taken average numbers for the damage of both power shot and rail shot on a target with no other armor debuffs other than the talented 60% on rail shot, and as I have shown, the 15% crit for both of them is mathematically identical. Maybe now you agree since you got the same results from a different approach?

 

I dunno if am just unlucky, but attacks DO and WILL miss on bosses, yes your high impact bolts will miss on bosses. Mine do, my logs show it, and I also notice it a lot, AND I have almost 2% more accuracy than you do.

 

My final point is this, you stated that:

 

Well I must show my proof too.

The logic is that if the average hit is higher in one set then the total damage output is greater.

 

This is correct, but as I (and you) have shown, both set bonuses incur an identical amount of damage assuming a 2:1 ratio of powershot/railshot usage, so neither set bonus gives a higher average hit.

 

Can we agree that for commandos it probably doesn't matter as much which set bonus you choose?

 

And that for a merc the PvP set is probably better? (from the fact that power shot is not as reliable as charged bolts)

Edited July 18, 2012 by HeVans_

[T-Assassin]

i'm too old and tired for all this math. it takes the fun outta playing.

 

sure, i could improve my performance slighly modding my gear to the max, using the "spreadsheet proven" set bonus, etc.

 

eff it. i wear a 2 piece eliminator set, and the rest is pretty armor i like to look of...LOL.

 

my pvp set is all appearance...(still rockin BM mods) but, i'm mad sexy...

 

and i have yet to be bettered in any FP, top DPS 95%+ of the time in WZ's, and can solo most world and champ mobs.

 

i applaud all you guys with the big brains.

 

but, it doesn't make that gamebreaking of a difference that i'll lose sleep over it, or feel that it effects my performance in any significant way.

Edited July 18, 2012 by T-Assassin

[Phrase]

i'm too old and tired for all this math. it takes the fun outta playing.

 

sure, i could improve my performance slighly modding my gear to the max, using the "spreadsheet proven" set bonus, etc.

 

eff it. i wear a 2 piece eliminator set, and the rest is pretty armor i like to look of...LOL.

 

my pvp set is all appearance...(still rockin BM mods) but, i'm mad sexy...

 

and i have yet to be bettered in any FP, top DPS 95%+ of the time in WZ's, and can solo most world and champ mobs.

 

i applaud all you guys with the big brains.

 

but, it doesn't make that gamebreaking of a difference that i'll lose sleep over it, or feel that it effects my performance in any significant way.

 

Playing the game the way you like it and having fun while doing it?

You sir, are a madman!