Annihilation vs. Carnage PvE with Parses

[alkhattabi]

And....

2009 DPS

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/25942/time/1349132738/1349133092

 

Im loving anni and my mara. <3

 

do u use the same gear setup in ur mr.robot link ? cuz its carnage build can u post ur Annihilation/watchmen PvE spec ?

 

and what about carnage did u reach those number with it ? i just reached 50 with this toon would love some helpful infos

 

thx !

Edited October 11, 2012 by alkhattabi

[Ardim]

Used SWMonitor to see Carnage damage.

 

Whacked Operations dummy for three minutes straight (Start by activating Saber Ward and ended when CD was over). Final DPS was 1471.7. Wearing a mix of augmented Campaign, Black Hole, and Rakata. No adrenals, and did not use Bloodthirst whatsoever.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Ardim

[IAmViiOLENT]

I just replied to you over in the Sentinel forums, but yes. Switched over to Carnage, I think its stronger than Annihilation TBH. Putting down numbers into the 2030 range (LagunaD's spreadsheet says that ~2090 would be max, so I'm definitely happy with where I am).

[IAmViiOLENT]

Here's a parse from Kephess earlier this week actually, even with intermittent lag (long periods of 0 DPS, hate my ISP sometimes!) you can definitely see why Carnage has become the premier Raiding spec on burst fights. Huge burst damage during burn phases (literally, over 30k dps at some points). Highest crit was a 19.1k crit on Ravage, (Ravage which I pretty much only used during burst phases, accounted for more damage than any other attack). Absolutely awesome spec for this fight, the 3rd fight, and the last fight.

 

Operator IX: http://www.torparse.com/a/31430/38 ( This one is definitely good for burst. )

Kephess: http://www.torparse.com/a/31416/7

Last Fight: http://www.torparse.com/a/31416/12

Edited October 13, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT

[Chaqen]

Nice parses, my Kephess parse is a little bit better, and was done as annihilation spec. I didnt use a adrenal at all (i am cheap and there wasnt a need to), and i bloodlusted on the 1st faceplant, and the last faceplant. I made sure i was applying overcharge saber and rupture as he was getting the stacks of debuff, and always used berserk during those phases.

 

I did sorta get lucky with vicious throw critting 4 out of 8 times, and making up 5% of my total damage (got to love huge HP mobs).

 

On a sidenote i been debating about using carnage in pve, have used it alot in pvp... but i feel like i would be rather bored with that spec. Also i would like to aplogize for not having a parse for the final fight in TFB (well at least not a defeat), kemenotic is/was an alt that i raided with outside of my guild.

[Omophorus]

And....

2009 DPS

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/25942/time/1349132738/1349133092

 

Im loving anni and my mara. <3

 

Serious question...

 

What does your DPS look like when you don't get crit Annihilate + crit Ravage in the opener, and then crits again on Bloodthirst?

 

2009 is hella impressive, but my "steady state" is more like 1800 without a lucky open, and whilst there are still a few improvements I can make (namely 61/63 PVE hilts), I literally can't figure out where I can make up that much DPS.

 

And for the later section a la Carnage, that's hella impressive for TFB. Super bursty spec is perfect for super bursty fights.

 

(I have the worst luck in the world, btw, on Annihilate/Ravage crits during open and during Bloodthirst. It really isn't fair.)

 

Edit: More digging and it looks like I could probably increase the number of Deadly Saber ticks, but it's never off CD except mid-channel on Ravage, so could just be per-fight variation or a small mistake I'm making on getting the DOTs up ASAP.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Omophorus

[Chaqen]

Edit: More digging and it looks like I could probably increase the number of Deadly Saber ticks, but it's never off CD except mid-channel on Ravage, so could just be per-fight variation or a small mistake I'm making on getting the DOTs up ASAP.

 

You should only be using ravage when you know that deadly saber, annihilate, and vicious throw wont be coming off CD. This is a bit tricky when you have a boss under 30%, but before that it is easily managed.

[Freezoide]

And....

2009 DPS

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/25942/time/1349132738/1349133092

 

Im loving anni and my mara. <3

 

It's absolutely disappointing that when noting a "2k parse", there is also a jugg parsing on the same dummy as you giving it an armor debuff stack. Checking further the logs on torparse itself you can conclude that 2k parse with adrenals AND a jugg armor debuff ain't the impressive easily achieved 2k parse. Also editing logs or picking out the highest points are camouflaged tricks to tune up the original log, let's say that the seconds to end the fight and to close the log is the standard deviation of some sort of dps.

 

A 2k parse in my terms I would recognize a log without adrenals. without armor debuff of other classes, with all class buffs and using the best stims there are. Such a 2k log result into a log with multiple spikes above the 2.1k such that it would be real to assume that a player can hit atleast 2k+ in a short round on operation bosses.

 

An example of such a log:

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1350518302_Dpsdummy.jpg

 

Despite the commentary, it's very nice to see that the annihilation/watchmen is quite effective and above all other average dps'ers. I'm curious about the gear and even more about how to perfectionize the Annihilation/Watchmen into a +2k parse in overall. Since I'm stubbornly convinced that both specs are equal, I'm willing to work together, see it's behaviour and study how to put Annihilation/Watchman to it's full utility and maximize it.

 

P.S.

You can discuss the short time used on the parse though for 3 minutes and conclude that this was a lucky run. For myself though I'm sure that after reading the log, it was not above the average gear setting (in stats). I've been able to test the dps even with 2x Inspiration (forgot the imperial name of it) and multiple uses of exotech might stims which results into 2 things:

1. Short minute parts of logs where 2.2k spikes are common and 2.1k is the lower boundary;

2. Massive lag spikes where animations crash and massive server lag takes in charge.

 

P.S. 2: Despite the armor debuff is something you use on a raid, real parsing on an Ops dummy is in my opinion the damage a single character can do without the active help of other classes (include passive help in sense of class buffs). Purely the solo skills of a class displays what a character can do on his own. Therefore I do not claim that the Carnage/Combat spec is the best for in raid, since I'm utterly convinced that the Watchmen/Annihilation puts out a more smooth and nice bursty controlable dps over de Carnage/Combat.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Freezoide
Extra Post Scriptum

[IAmViiOLENT]

It's absolutely disappointing that when noting a "2k parse", there is also a jugg parsing on the same dummy as you giving it an armor debuff stack. Checking further the logs on torparse itself you can conclude that 2k parse with adrenals AND a jugg armor debuff ain't the impressive easily achieved 2k parse. Also editing logs or picking out the highest points are camouflaged tricks to tune up the original log, let's say that the seconds to end the fight and to close the log is the standard deviation of some sort of dps.

 

A 2k parse in my terms I would recognize a log without adrenals. without armor debuff of other classes, with all class buffs and using the best stims there are. Such a 2k log result into a log with multiple spikes above the 2.1k such that it would be real to assume that a player can hit atleast 2k+ in a short round on operation bosses.

 

An example of such a log:

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1350518302_Dpsdummy.jpg

 

Despite the commentary, it's very nice to see that the annihilation/watchmen is quite effective and above all other average dps'ers. I'm curious about the gear and even more about how to perfectionize the Annihilation/Watchmen into a +2k parse in overall. Since I'm stubbornly convinced that both specs are equal, I'm willing to work together, see it's behaviour and study how to put Annihilation/Watchman to it's full utility and maximize it.

 

P.S.

You can discuss the short time used on the parse though for 3 minutes and conclude that this was a lucky run. For myself though I'm sure that after reading the log, it was not above the average gear setting (in stats). I've been able to test the dps even with 2x Inspiration (forgot the imperial name of it) and multiple uses of exotech might stims which results into 2 things:

1. Short minute parts of logs where 2.2k spikes are common and 2.1k is the lower boundary;

2. Massive lag spikes where animations crash and massive server lag takes in charge.

 

P.S. 2: Despite the armor debuff is something you use on a raid, real parsing on an Ops dummy is in my opinion the damage a single character can do without the active help of other classes (include passive help in sense of class buffs). Purely the solo skills of a class displays what a character can do on his own. Therefore I do not claim that the Carnage/Combat spec is the best for in raid, since I'm utterly convinced that the Watchmen/Annihilation puts out a more smooth and nice bursty controlable dps over de Carnage/Combat.

 

I aim for a raid parse, albeit this is a very old parse now in comparison to current gear and spec. 3 minute parses, are in my mind not valid (If we did 3 minute parses, in Carnage no debuffs Im rather sure it would put me close to 2.2-2.3k with just bloodthirsts...) The 6 minute or so parses give more sample data, and as well as that... They're actually relatively close to a boss fight length. 3 minutes is practically useless, as no boss fight is going to last 3 minutes if its progression.

That said, Annihilation may on paper give the better damage, but considering how BW is setting up raids, Carnage's on demand burst and less setup to maintain between phases has become the best spec for pure dps imo in raids at least (If you want survivability because of weak healers, go anni). In current gear, according to LagunaD's spreadsheet, max Carnage DPS is listed at 2162 dps. Maxing out to the tune of 2.1k. Ill take that + on demand burst over maybe 30 extra dps from Anni if the target never moved and never had phase transitions.

[Freezoide]

I aim for a raid parse, albeit this is a very old parse now in comparison to current gear and spec. 3 minute parses, are in my mind not valid (If we did 3 minute parses, in Carnage no debuffs Im rather sure it would put me close to 2.2-2.3k with just bloodthirsts...) The 6 minute or so parses give more sample data, and as well as that... They're actually relatively close to a boss fight length. 3 minutes is practically useless, as no boss fight is going to last 3 minutes if its progression.

That said, Annihilation may on paper give the better damage, but considering how BW is setting up raids, Carnage's on demand burst and less setup to maintain between phases has become the best spec for pure dps imo in raids at least (If you want survivability because of weak healers, go anni). In current gear, according to LagunaD's spreadsheet, max Carnage DPS is listed at 2162 dps. Maxing out to the tune of 2.1k. Ill take that + on demand burst over maybe 30 extra dps from Anni if the target never moved and never had phase transitions.

 

I agree on that 3 minute parsers are not valid, though seen how I've put it and did it 5 times in a row gives a good indication of how carnage/combat is outperforming annihilation when its 1-1 on the dummy. And indeed using inspiration/bloodthirsts makes atleast 2 minutes go to the 2.2/2.3k damage. Though the most regrettable thing is the failure of lag interfering after a short time. I don't know if you've noticed the same? But putting up the same ideal crits and rotations on long time, just gets blown by simple lag server where animations gets stuck etc etc. I don't know if you also noticed that? And despite the burst of the combat/carnage, due to server lag purely it becomes very hard nerved. Im even considering an Alacrity augment so that in the MS/Ravage and blade storm/force scream , the crit will count in time for the last of the moves (Its sick that bugs in the game forces this idea of avoiding it).

[IAmViiOLENT]

I actually haven't been getting ability lag in Carnage, although I have been getting it in Annihilation spec (Annihilate sometimes just has a blank CD when I hit and wont activate for another 1.5s...) This morning did a baseline parse with just stim, warrior and inquisitor buff and came out with 1899 dps. (Torparse is down, waaaaa). No debuffs, no inspiration, no adrenals. Between the crit buff, adrenals, and bloodthirst, I'd guess thats easily another 100-150 dps... lol. Carnage is becoming a better spec imo for pure dps, and honestly with aoe damage in TFB and NiM EC, its even more valuable.

[Arovien]

So i've asked around ingame a lot regarding Carnage/combat ability priority - no consistent answers ever.

 

 

• Some marauders have told me to only use Massacre when the massacre buff is not active.
  
• Others have said to just spam Massacre followed by slash since Massacre + the guaranteed ataru attack is more (consistant) damage than a visious slash that MIGHT gain an ataru attack.
  
• Some say ravage is worthless in carnage (and even in anni), others do not parrot that statement. What is better, Massacre->Gore->Ravage->Force Scream or Gore-> Massacre->Vicious Slash->Force Scream->Massacre?
  
• Some say to only use force scream when Gore is actively on target.
  

 

Who is right and who is wrong? If a particular ability priority is situation, then please explain.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Arovien

[IAmViiOLENT]

Scream off CD *if Blood Frenzy is up*

 

Opener =

Leap, BA, (If no ataru proc) Massacre, Gore, Ravage, Scream, Massacre, Rupture, assault etc

 

Priority=

Gore

Berserk = When more than 7 rage, and gore has less than 3 seconds on CD

Scream when Blood Frenzy is up off CD (Timing it for gore if gore is gonna be off CD soon is better though, its a judgement call)

Ravage (Only when Gore is up, first attack in gore window always)

Vicious Throw = if you have gore up, use this in there.. 6.8k+ crits is SEXY

Rupture (Before Berserks/gores)

Massacre = Filler when more than 2 rage

Battering Assault

Assault.

 

Using Berserk spammed Massacres in the gore window as a substitute for ravage is fine, use Massacre 3 times (3 Seconds) then Scream.

If Ravage is up for gore, always always always use it during gore.

If scream is not up for gore, just use massacre.

You learn how to time up gores and berserk massacre spam eventually.

Edited October 23, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT

[IAmViiOLENT]

Kinda interesting, lost 100 dps just from not having a crit buff on (23% crit chance over all.. Ouch). Had a bit of server lag as well, but crit buff seems to make quite a bit difference... http://www.torparse.com/a/34753/time/1350746872/1350747426

 

And here's the past weeks TFB HM last fight parse. Did 1.2m this week. 1443 dps.

http://www.torparse.com/a/33026/29

Edited October 20, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT

[Aurojiin]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, although I would put Rupture above Massacre on the priority list subject to Gore not being up (putting it below basically implies you shouldn't use it at all, seeing as Massacre has no CD).

 

Also, if I'm getting Gore back in a GCD or two then I'll save Force Scream for it, otherwise I'll use it on CD.

[IAmViiOLENT]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, although I would put Rupture above Massacre on the priority list subject to Gore not being up (putting it below basically implies you shouldn't use it at all, seeing as Massacre has no CD).

 

Also, if I'm getting Gore back in a GCD or two then I'll save Force Scream for it, otherwise I'll use it on CD.

 

Haha yeah, definitely a fair point there

Yeah, I do the same (I think I said that in an explanation; although I may just be imagining that I did...)

I'll edit the post to place rupture above Massacre, as it *should* be a higher priority.

 

Also, this is a pretty on par parse in Carnage, with no armor penn debuffs. http://www.torparse.com/a/35275/4

Edited October 23, 2012 by IAmViiOLENT

[marshmallow]

So since I can post on the forums again, I'll upload a new parse with my new found knowledge and st00f

[marshmallow]

okie so here is a 2050 parse w/o armor cuts or anything

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/42274

 

its the last one on there 16:35:49 - 16:41:25

 

Also it says 1983 because I was waiting to get out of combat for about 10 seconds.

[Omophorus]

okie so here is a 2050 parse w/o armor cuts or anything

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/42274

 

its the last one on there 16:35:49 - 16:41:25

 

Also it says 1983 because I was waiting to get out of combat for about 10 seconds.

 

Link to my reply in the other thread where you posted this parse, so I don't have to type it out twice:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5362208&postcount=9

[verfallen]

So with my newly 50 marauder, I parsed with both Annihilation and Carnage on my ship operation's dummy.

 

Both scored the same dps of 1150 with no end-game gear on (thats WITH the 4 sec or so needed to exit combat)

 

I made a few mistakes with both, mainly lost annihilate once in the middle of the fight which dropped my dps (kinda miscounted my rage at that point)

 

The following points appear to me:

 

-Annihilation will shine in aoe heavy fight, since you will take on yourself to reduce the healing needed for you by about 1,3%/s of your total health. (thats 200hps for me with 15k health, about)

 

-Carnage burst is FAR easier to do, and far more availaible. If its a fight where you have to switch around or gotta stop dps after a few seconds (people pointed to Soa's last phase, which is also the prime exemple in my mind) Carnage will be far more efficient.

 

-Carnage ressource generation, which i tought would lacking, was surprisingly way easier than Annihilation, where it ate 1/3rd of my bar every 7,5s, and bleeds another half nearly. every 12 seconds.

 

 

-As OP said, the accuracy buff from ataru gets even my regular pve gear's accuracy off the chart. I end up with 106/116% with companion buff/ataru form bonus/narrowed hatred. The ammount of extra crit or power you can pile up is not to be neglected.

 

 

 

 

As a conclusion, raid wise Carnage might very be more efficient of a damage dealer, but with reduced utility to the team, safe maybe popping predation in Gharj's platform phase etc.

 

However, NOTING will top the well rounded annihilation as term of solo play and I'm fairly sure I can push up annihlation's damage farther, just have to make a few tweaks in the rotation (you just get tired of hiting on a dummy for half an hour eventually you know?)

 

I'll stay faithful to annihilation for the time being, its very viable as a damage dealer when it is important, but carnage obviously is not to be underestimated.

Edited November 3, 2012 by verfallen

[Omophorus]

So with my newly 50 marauder, I parsed with both Annihilation and Carnage on my ship operation's dummy.

 

Both scored the same dps of 1150 with no end-game gear on (thats WITH the 4 sec or so needed to exit combat)

 

I made a few mistakes with both, mainly lost annihilate once in the middle of the fight which dropped my dps (kinda miscounted my rage at that point) Losing Annihilator stacks has a very significant impact on DPS, which can take upwards of 30 seconds to re-stabilize from.

 

The following points appear to me:

 

-Annihilation will shine in aoe heavy fight, since you will take on yourself to reduce the healing needed for you by about 1,3%/s of your total health. (thats 200hps for me with 15k health, about) Yes, any boss fight with high DTPS makes Annihilation a great choice. Jarg & Sorno and Karagga in KP NM, Dread Guards in TFB HM, etc. AoE is less important than high overall DTPS, because even significant AoE on fights with low overall DTPS doesn't tend to over-stress healers (e.g. Zorn & Toth).

 

-Carnage burst is FAR easier to do, and far more availaible. If its a fight where you have to switch around or gotta stop dps after a few seconds (people pointed to Soa's last phase, which is also the prime exemple in my mind) Carnage will be far more efficient. Exactly right. Most boss fights presently in the game fall into this category, which is why there is an increasing level of interest in and preference for Carnage in PVE.

 

-Carnage ressource generation, which i tought would lacking, was surprisingly way easier than Annihilation, where it ate 1/3rd of my bar every 7,5s, and bleeds another half nearly. every 12 seconds. Annihilation is very easy from a resource perspective once you're more used to it, I actually find it's harder to properly balance rage building vs. rage spending with Carnage, since the Rage needs for each Gore window will vary. GCDs spent using Assault are essentially wasted, so minimizing their number is paramount for min/maxing DPS. Whilst Annihilation consumes more Rage, it also generates more Rage as well (PVE spec should include point-blank Charge and increased Rage from Charge, as it has a significant benefit to Rage-neutrality of the overall priority system).

 

 

-As OP said, the accuracy buff from ataru gets even my regular pve gear's accuracy off the chart. I end up with 106/116% with companion buff/ataru form bonus/narrowed hatred. The ammount of extra crit or power you can pile up is not to be neglected. You can't actually pile any extra Crit Rating or Power, sadly, since the only stats you can swap with Accuracy Rating are Surge Rating and Alacrity Rating. The latter is worthless to us, however the former is always awesome. With 61+ items, you can easily dump out at least 3 Accuracy enhancements for Surge (3 will leave you at 100.93% main hand Acc, 4 will leave you at 99.04% main hand Acc. I prefer being slightly high to slightly low, due to the percentage of Carnage DPS coming from white damage, and the fact that Accuracy past 100% is still slightly relevant due to offhand hits.

 

 

 

 

As a conclusion, raid wise Carnage might very be more efficient of a damage dealer, but with reduced utility to the team, safe maybe popping predation in Gharj's platform phase etc. It depends on the fight. For most fights at present, Carnage is a better choice for DPS, but the loss of healing is noteworthy on any fight with high DTPS. Annihilation does not surrender very much DPS to Carnage, so if the healers aren't all-stars, I'd totally consider the trade-off worthwhile.

 

However, NOTING will top the well rounded annihilation as term of solo play and I'm fairly sure I can push up annihlation's damage farther, just have to make a few tweaks in the rotation (you just get tired of hiting on a dummy for half an hour eventually you know?) There's very little solo play at the moment that really stresses any spec. Rage is pretty fantastic for dailies since it's a trash-clearing monster. Annihilation is definitely better for Elites and Champions, but a geared Quinn can keep you standing with any spec. The first time I tried Poisonous Strat solo on Carnage, it was noticeably trickier than Annihilation, but with minimal tactics adjustment, it really became a wash.

 

I'll stay faithful to annihilation for the time being, its very viable as a damage dealer when it is important, but carnage obviously is not to be underestimated. That's probably wise. There's very little difference in ultimate DPS potential until you're looking at optimized 61+ gear (since you'll be reshuffling stats frequently until that point), so the safer choice is generally the better choice if there isn't a clear advantage one way or another.

 

Responses colored in line.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Omophorus

[Saferai]

2100 x 2

 

5 min Full Class Buffs, 1 BT, Rakata Stim and 2x Rakata Attack adrenals no Arp debuff, basically standard with no shenanigans

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/42958

http://www.torparse.com/a/42747

 

This is about as close to the sims predicted output as I expect to come in full BiS hazmat sans an earpiece under low latency circumstances. My roommates torrenting affects my dps more than anything else as of late it seems -_-

 

Carnage Avg is in the 2050-2075 range

 

Deleted logs but Annih highs have been 2010 under the same cirumstances in the same level of optimized gear.

Annih Avg is 1975-1990

 

Off the dummy Annih still scales better with an arp debuff and sub 30% on a boss, VT simply does not fit into the carnage rotation seemlessly without running into rage negative scenarios. Also I may be wrong but I do not believe VT can proc ataru strike.

 

Results seem to put carnage 1-2% ahead of annih at current with all factors considered, a figure that could fall well within natural variance on any given fight. Very little in HM TFB favors one over the other as highly as ppl make it out to be, depending on what your assignment for the fight is. So assuming equal gear and skill, play whichever you like. Personally carnage bores me to tears, contrary to what the person above me posted I find carnages resource management to be almost not existent and it's rotation to be little more than 2 set sequences repeated over and over with very little variance. Given that content itself is rather easy atm I think I will probably go back to annih in order to stay awake during raids lol

Edited November 4, 2012 by Saferai

[marshmallow]

2120 DPS parse, 2068 is from the waiting to get out of combat. If you don't believe me you can edit the log or whatever because I have no idea how you do that

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/43278

14:11:38 - 14:15:38

 

its the last parse, the other 39 was me testing different things out with my rotation.

 

I know its only a 4 minute parse but thats still damn good, i'll upload a 5 minute one later.

 

I used all class buffs, rakata might stim, and rakata attack adrenal 1 time and bloodthirst one time.

[marshmallow]

http://www.torparse.com/a/44129/time/1352249208/1352249533

 

2123 parse over a 5 minute 30 second time period.

 

I used 2 rakata attack adrenals and one bloodthirst. No armor pen

 

also edited to not include the waiting to get out of combat

[verfallen]

http://www.torparse.com/a/44129/time/1352249208/1352249533

 

2123 parse over a 5 minute 30 second time period.

 

I used 2 rakata attack adrenals and one bloodthirst. No armor pen

 

also edited to not include the waiting to get out of combat

 

 

You are aware you are far pass informative and deep within Epeen territory at this point right?