Why some classes are "better"?

[Twor]

I did get that, and i will repeat myself, but the following i have already said, repeatedly across multiple threads.

 

Classes have different skill curves. So what!? That is not a game balance issue.

 

You can not give all classes the same skill curve, without sacrificing the class individuality and role.

 

And switching class does not actually improve a players performance.

 

The apparent increase, is superficial ... it is cross-class and it only affects players who are not that good at the game overall.

 

Average player switching to an easier class, will still be outplayed by good players playing the same class, and good players playing every other class.

 

His "performance" will only improve in relation to other average players who play a more difficult class. Balancing the game around bad game-play (average players) is impossible.

 

To be fair you complained for awhile about pyros as well

Glad to see you are doing great on the class that everyone else thinks up. And showing that not only cookie cutter setups are in the high ranks (we only play with one assault and one sentinel as well).

 

*edit* not meant as a flame.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Twor

[Dmasterr]

As others told you, you are rank 1 on your server. This doesn't mean you are rank 1 / best team in EU. It just means you are the best team (for me "the team with the most gear and time" would fit better) of your server.

There are German and French servers too, aswell as English PvE servers.

When "all" the players interested in pvp transfered to said server, it kinda does. And stop acting there are only english ppl because its an english server, lol. We have spanish, french , turkish etc etc. Players came here for pvp, not to form an all english community.

 

We even had 1k+players in queue to log . Its a pretty big server.

 

Having the highest rating on a server can be caused by many things:

- Your team has too much time and therefor much more games than other teams on your server

Playing 2-3h a day for ~4 days a week is hard:rolleyes: So invalid excuse.

- Your team is one of the few geared ones on your server.

There are over 100 fully geared players on the server that i alone have seen, and many more close to that.So invalid excuse.

- Your team often plays against teams with random people from general chat who just do this for the comms.

Id say it is around 50-50%, the times we meet good teams and the times we meet teams that are thrown together on fleet channel or weak teams. Having that high a win ratio and rating, is not a result of farming weak teams. Invalid excuse.

- Your team stacks FOTM classes.

Our team rooster is : Jugg tank, assassin off-tank, mercenary healer, operative healer, concealment operative, pyro powertech, marauder, sniper/rage jugg.

When we actually get to play as the main team, often we use replacements and still maintain the win ratio. Other good teams use 2 sorc dps and healer and merc tracer guys...

 

Invalid excuse.

- You are getting carried by your team.

.

lol no. I have single handedly been responsible for more wins than any other player on their own in the team.Me in the team is a big bonus.

invalid excuse

- Other guilds on your server suck.

.

Some do,there are bad players everywhere... but there are about 6-7 other guilds that are good and offer good competition.

So, invalid excuse.

- You are all skilled players who know what they do.

.

There you go. How can you use this as an excuse again? It's not like we use magic, we play with the same game mechanics as everyone. Thats my point, l2p and "you" can be successful too, and don't give me that bull that you are really skilled but lack a team, because if you are really skilled you would be on one of the top teams on your server, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

A skilled player, as you are telling us you are one, doesn't need to use his rating as a proof.

.

I disagree, if you make a claim about your skill to players that are not playing with or against you, you do need to prove it. Your "word" isn't enough.

Either way he wants to argument and brings up valid, constructive arguments or he doesn't want to argument, since he knows he is right and because he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

 

I have yet to find one argument of you that doesn't include your uberskill, L2P, rating or rank 1.

I do bring out valid arguments, on everything i say. People just keep singing the same whine song. My rating is proof that i have a better understanding of the game that people with considerable lower rating.

In your opinion, rating = skill and everyone who isn't above 2.4k rating needs to L2P, no matter why he isn't.

God...damn...WoW generation...

 

Rating is the only accurate way to measure someone's skill. And you do not have to be above a certain number, all you have to be is among the best teams on your server.

 

Hearsay and anecdotes are not a valid tool to measure someone's skill.

 

Can you please tell us again how the game is holding you back at 1200 rating?and not in one of the best teams on your server?

[Dmasterr]

To be fair you complained for awhile about pyros as well

They are a strong class, but i did not complain about it. In fact i don't complain about anything really... overpowered /underpowered etc, patches come and go. Don't care that much about the changes they bring.

Glad to see you are doing great on the class that everyone else thinks up. And showing that not only cookie cutter setups are in the high ranks (we only play with one assault and one sentinel as well).

Thanks. I am trying to let other players know that they can improve, without having to wait for some magical patch from Bioware.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Dmasterr

[upzie]

lol no. I have single handedly been responsible for more wins than any other player on their own in the team.Me in the team is a big bonus.

invalid excuse

 

Your a bit cocky today, now aren't you

[Dmasterr]

Your a bit cocky today, now aren't you

 

'tis true tho .

 

I am not diminishing any of my team members value, i think they are exceptional players, otherwise i wouldn't play with them.

 

But, especially you, know what i am talking about and that it is true.

[Raice]

I did get that, and i will repeat myself, but the following i have already said, repeatedly across multiple threads.

 

Classes have different skill curves. So what!? That is not a game balance issue.

 

You can not give all classes the same skill curve, without sacrificing the class individuality and role.

 

And switching class does not actually improve a players performance.

 

The apparent increase, is superficial ... it is cross-class and it only affects players who are not that good at the game overall.

 

Average player switching to an easier class, will still be outplayed by good players playing the same class, and good players playing every other class.

 

His "performance" will only improve in relation to other average players who play a more difficult class. Balancing the game around bad game-play (average players) is impossible.

 

If a class is harder to play - more players will suck at it. As a result, fewer people will want to play the class, especially if it is not performing as well as another class, especially if it is easier to play.

 

If a class is easier to play - less players will suck at it. As a result, more people will want to play the class, especially if it is easier to play than another class that might be just as good but is harder to play.

 

I don't see a lot of people playing Concealment/Scrapper anymore. I used to see them all over the place. I used to see them all over the place because it performed very, very well. So well, that people were willing to play a class that was slightly more difficult to play than most other classes that were slightly easier to play. However, lots of people still played the easy classes, anyway. And that's okay.

 

Now, I see hardly anyone playing Concealment/Scrapper. This makes me very sad, because I love my class. It also makes me sad because I know why people do not want to play my class. People do not want to play my class because it does not perform as well as other classes, and it is much more difficult to play than it used to be... because it does not perform as well as it used to. It is much more difficult to play now, because we have to do more things than we used to, because we can no longer do what we used to do. Now, the things we used to do to escape from eminent danger, is now part of our standard, every day rotation.

 

I have 24 buttons on my Hotbar - all of them are filled with my Abilities. I used to only use about 8 of them, and I would see the fruits of my labor when I used them correctly. The other buttons left over were reserved for those times when I messed up in my first 8 buttons, or when I was caught by surprise. These extra 6-12 buttons that i would use in emergencies would help me escape to safety.

 

Now, I still have the same 24 buttons. But now, I use every single of them in every single encounter. I rarely escape to safety because I do not have the abilities that the other classes have that allow them to frequently escape to safety. This is made even worse because since I am using these left over abilities to accomplish what I used to do with only 8, I no longer have them ready to help me escape. I have to use all 24 of my buttons, because the 8 buttons I used to rely on, no longer do the things I expect them to do. And all of this because I was nerfed 7 months ago, and then Surge was nerfed, and no one thought to un-nerf me since Surge actually corrected the problem.

 

I used to be a very happy PvP player. I used to be happy, because I would win some and I would lose some. I used to be happy because I was having fun. I used to be happy because when I died, I knew exactly what I did wrong. Now, I am not happy because I lose more often than I win, even though I have never had good PvP gear (even pre-1.1), I only have fun when my team is able to accomplish something, and when I die, I have no idea what I am doing wrong, since I have no more buttons to press. I already pressed all 24.

 

I'm done with this conversation. Good day.

[iTryHard]

So arrogant and cocky, all I hear is "LOOK AT MY AWESOME 1337 RATING IM GODLY AND MORE SKILLED THAN YOU! LOL!11"

Seriously, rating doesn't make you the most important person in the world LOL

[Dmasterr]

...

 

What has your anecdote and subjective experience of "fun" have to do with game balance?

[Dmasterr]

Seriously, rating doesn't make you the most important person in the world LOL

 

True. But we are not "out in the world" we are on swtor pvp forums.

 

And if you do not "like" my replies to the "personal" attacks other posters throw at me, it is not my problem.

[upzie]

So arrogant and cocky, all I hear is "LOOK AT MY AWESOME 1337 RATING IM GODLY AND MORE SKILLED THAN YOU! LOL!11"

Seriously, rating doesn't make you the most important person in the world LOL

 

theres a good chance that it makes him the better/more expirienced player though

 

Any way I'm out of this thread, I have enough fun reading, no need for me to add fuel to the fire, you guys are doing a fine job w/o me

[iTryHard]

I wish I could have a bigger signature for more of your ridiculous lines

[Raice]

What has your anecdote and subjective experience of "fun" have to do with game balance?

 

I have fun when I am playing a fair game. When I am not having fun, it is usually because something isn't working properly and the odds are stacked against me. Luckily, there are other things I can do in this game besides PvP when I've had enough frustration.

 

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who doesn't understand that I can't always win. You seem to be mistaking me for someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of the game. I have stated on these forums multiple times in multiple threads the very specific things that are wrong with Scrapper/Concealment. These aren't theoretical, conceptual, undistinguishable, imaginary, "I don't understand my class" problems.

 

I wrote a whole article about what they did to bork it as soon as 1.1 hit. I said very clearly, "Flechette Round and Knockdown are not the problem. The problem is we do too much critical damage." What do they do a week later? They nerf Surge. Did they fix our class? Nope. They not only broke us, but they gutted the very stat that made us a DPS class.

 

I spoke very precisely about how nerfing Concealment/Scrapper was going to accomplish nothing but create a "transfer of hate community" and start the cycle of FOTM in this game - just like it happens in all MMO's when devs get into PvP balancing. What happened immediately after they nerfed us? Healing went nuts and suddenly everyone wanted healing classes nerfed, too - that's what - just like I said it would happen.

 

I made 2 threads, one in the PvP forum, and one in the Suggestion box forum. I got 40 pages of comments on both. Half of the replies were from people who played the class and knew exactly what I was saying was correct. Even Bioware knew it was correct - you can tell... by how they nerfed Surge - Critical Damage. The other half were crybaby Sorcerers who wanted vengeance and couldn't think straight about anything because they were emotionally compromised. People who are emotionally compromised cannot reason. You cannot be both because they require different sides of the brain. However, women CAN use both sides of their brain - which is why they never make any sense. <--- Off topic... whatever...

 

I "get" that they aren't going to fix Scrapper/Concealment. I get that - I've long given up fighting that battle. But I am not going to sit here and let someone like you throw around a bunch of misinformation about how rad you are at the game therefore nothing can possibly be wrong with the class, meanwhile you're sitting in the shadow of the 22 other possible class builds that are carrying you to victory.

 

Stop apologizing for developer screw-ups.

[Dmasterr]

I wish I could have a bigger signature for more of your ridiculous lines

 

Me too. ^_^

 

However, what is wrong with being arrogant? It's not like i can't back it up.

[iTryHard]

There's nothing I can say to you except laugh at your comments

[Dmasterr]

I "get" that they aren't going to fix Scrapper/Concealment. I get that - I've long given up fighting that battle. But I am not going to sit here and let someone like you throw around a bunch of misinformation about how rad you are at the game therefore nothing can possibly be wrong with the class, meanwhile you're sitting in the shadow of the 22 other possible class builds that are carrying you to victory.

 

Stop apologizing for developer screw-ups.

 

I am not carried and i am not apologizing for dev decisions.

 

The class has problems, but they are not big enough to stop players being able to compete.

 

My point is that you, and others are blowing things way out of proportions with "omg i am 1300 rating because the game is keeping me down QQ". Srsly?

[bumpy_anderson]

My first 50 was a sniper on a pvp server. This was before snipers became a "flavor of the month" kind of class. Most who played a sniper complained constantly about how underpowered the class was. However, I had no issues what-so-ever. I constantly topped the damage charts.

 

Now I'm playing a vanguard. I used ironfist for a long time until stockstrike took a hit. At this point, I switched to assault. As of late, I've noticed a lot of "fluff" numbers being put out by vanguards and powertechs. Numbers tell the story on how a person plays the class and what they are trying to achieve. For instance, if I put up 400k in a warzone with 20 killing blows and the other PT/VG puts up 700k with the same killing blows or less, that tells me that they other guy is just padding his numbers. Most any aoe class can do this. The real question is how much good are you really doing other than annoying the other team.

 

VG/PTs are easy classes to play. However, there are still alot of bad ones out there. It doesn't matter what class it is, you still have great players playing some of the "gimped" classes. These players are still recking other players. I agree with what some others have said, if you do much to help out these classes, you are going to see some of them as being OP because of the great player behind the class. Basically, I think the PT/VG and Mar/sent are all over rated. Just because a class is easy doesn't make it OP. Certain players make them seem OP, but i've seen other classes put up good numbers as well. An easy class will get played more than a more difficult class.

 

On our server, I see more groups stacking bombing warriors more than anything. Would this be considered OP because it is being stacked? I'm not referring to just average groups of pugs. I'm referring to some of the top guilds/groups running ranked.

[Raice]

I am not carried and i am not apologizing for dev decisions.

 

The class has problems, but they are not big enough to stop players being able to compete.

 

My point is that you, and others are blowing things way out of proportions with "omg i am 1300 rating because the game is keeping me down QQ". Srsly?

 

I don't believe I said anything like that. Like I said, you seem to think I am someone who does not understand what is going on with my class.

 

The problem you and I are having with communicating right now is you are not listening to anything but the sound of your own typing, which I guess to you, sounds a lot like your own voice. You're full of yourself - and you're full of something else too...

[iTryHard]

If you think Scrapper/Conceal is in a good place I don't know what to say, that AC is burst-centric... without the burst... Improve burst slightly and revamp the tree to provide more sustained damage so they can be viable again, a burst class with no burst does NOT work.

P.S. leaving for a 6 hour drive in an hour or so so don't expect many replies...

[iTryHard]

I don't believe I said anything like that. Like I said, you seem to think I am someone who does not understand what is going on with my class.

 

The problem you and I are having with communicating right now is you are not listening to anything but the sound of your own typing, which I guess to you, sounds a lot like your own voice. You're full of yourself - and you're full of something else too...

 

Rainbows and unicorns?

[Raice]

Rainbows and unicorns?

 

I wish I could type curse words on this forum. It really puts a strain on my vernacular and syntax to replace them with more eloquent and civilized vocabulary. Not because I am incapable of meeting the requirement... but sometimes... sometimes... people need a hammer to the face. Not for their sake... for my own.

 

You know?

[iphobia]

Can you please tell us again how the game is holding you back at 1200 rating?and not in one of the best teams on your server?

 

As I already told you in other threads, I'm sitting at 0 rating with 0 ranked games played.

 

I wouldn't even do some with the best guild on my server, why should I?

 

Except coms, the only benefit you get from this is an epeen number on in your PvP stats, style armor which I don't need since I already have my style armor together, a mount which I don't need since I have a (in my opinion) better looking one or a color crystal, which I also don't need since I'm farming a Vibrosword right now.

 

I see no point in doing rateds in a game with such a low skill cap and a completely f*cked up class balance.

 

If you see PvP in this game anyhow, in any form competitive, I feel sorry for you.

 

 

I wish I could have a bigger signature for more of your ridiculous lines

I'm feeling with you, bro.

Edited July 13, 2012 by iphobia

[Invictusthetaru]

I actually agree with Dmasterr on most of his points here guys. Some classes have it harder than others but they fill a different niche. If your shadow tank pulls a PT 30 M off his target and slows him...he's out of the fight for quite some time.

 

Same with marauders right after they leap. Operatives also have a giant AOE on a minute cooldown. An operative can cast OS, stealth out, have someone pull into the AOE and start their rotation on him. Later bro.

 

These are the things we need to be thinking about. Not individual play, but how does each class effect the tactics of the game.

 

Sorcs would be OP if they got a damage boost because they can do so much on the battlefield. Who is can pull a teammate out of FF, off heal, drop a massive AOE on novare when teams are trying to cap, etc.

[iphobia]

Who is can pull a teammate out of FF, off heal, drop a massive AOE on novare when teams are trying to cap, etc.

 

Who else dies in 3 globals with only 2 people attacking him due to light armor and no defensive cooldowns unless he has guard?

Edited July 13, 2012 by iphobia

[Invictusthetaru]

Who else dies in 3 globals with only 2 people attacking him due to light armor and no defensive cooldowns unless he has guard?

 

How is bubble not a defensive cooldown? That gives you more than enough time to KB, slow, insta force lift, or even knock back root, sprint, root...etc. I realize those talents are in different trees but they offer similar utility in that situation. Freaking kite. If you are getting targeted by 2 of the other teams DPS....then those 2 DPS aren't on your healers. So you should be fine. Not to mention you have tanks to peel and other DPS to be doing damage.

 

Not to mention sorcs can cleanse maras burns if heal specd or heal hybrid spec, so you can face tank them for 2 seconds longer than most squishy classes. There is also a bubble pop stun that is amazing for kiting.

 

Hell, you can even hard cast force lift if they used their interrupt on one of your DPS abilities.

 

I mostly play on my slinger, and drop my AOEs on my sages so they can cast w/out melees bothering them.

 

Team game, and sorcs have more than enough utility to get away.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Invictusthetaru

[Dmasterr]

Who else dies in 3 globals with only 2 people attacking him due to light armor and no defensive cooldowns unless he has guard?

 

Not sorcs played by competent players. If you are not kiting and using line of sight, you are doing it wrong.

 

Ill say it again: playing a support class as a front line class is going to get you killed, because YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!.