What were the devs thinking??

[JetAten]

Once again, the devs said this game would be a unique mmo with all the fails of other mmo's out of the picture yet the game is still exactly the same as every other one. If this was going to be a standard MMO, I would have no problems with the issues I said but this game was proclaimed to be a unique, innovative MMO and it was not

 

You don't get it. You're comparing this game to KOTOR 2 which was a single-player game. Thats your first mistake. MMOs have constraints on them that single-player games do not as a consequence of their design, having to handle large volumes of simultaneous players in the same game world. And since these games require a constant connection over the internet to a remote server, the designers have to keep bandwith in mind and so can't require too much data to have to pass back and forth. You will never get as finished a product in an MMO as you do in a single-player game because for 1, MMOs are constantly evolving so they have be designed with room to expand. 2, MMOs never end. The plotlines, the questing, the gameplay itself has to stay open ended. And 3, MMOs have to keep in mind bandwith and processor capacity and so have to be conservative with how many pixels and how much data is on the screen at any one time. These are issues single-player games do not have.

[Tewnam]

Your response to number 3 is that most mmo's do this and it is normal in mmo's. If this game was supposed to be a normal MMO I would completely agree to this but they said this mmo would be completely unique and that they would stick away from the standard boring stuff that are in mmo's

 

They didn't say every possible thing everywhere in the game would be completely 100% unique. An MMO is going to have some sort of timesink. That's simply the way it is. It's good for the game and it's good for the players.

 

If you could blow through the whole game in 40-60 hours like you can most single-player RPGs, then you would be left with absolutely nothing to do until the next content update. Players eat up content like little kids in an ice cream store. The game needs something that can be repeated to provide continuous rewards so that there is something for the players to do. If those rewards are too big, then players get everything they want too quickly and become bored.

 

There will always be something repetitive in MMOs.

[gunnerjoe]

They didn't say every possible thing everywhere in the game would be completely 100% unique. An MMO is going to have some sort of timesink. That's simply the way it is. It's good for the game and it's good for the players.

 

If you could blow through the whole game in 40-60 hours like you can most single-player RPGs, then you would be left with absolutely nothing to do until the next content update. Players eat up content like little kids in an ice cream store. The game needs something that can be repeated to provide continuous rewards so that there is something for the players to do. If those rewards are too big, then players get everything they want too quickly and become bored.

 

There will always be something repetitive in MMOs.

 

I am not saying to make the games leveling expierence to be faster, but to be less boring which I thought they should have looked at more. As a matter of fact, if the other non class specific quests were less boring I would hope that leveling would be slower...

Edited July 12, 2012 by gunnerjoe

[gunnerjoe]

You don't get it. You're comparing this game to KOTOR 2 which was a single-player game. Thats your first mistake. MMOs have constraints on them that single-player games do not as a consequence of their design, having to handle large volumes of simultaneous players in the same game world. And since these games require a constant connection over the internet to a remote server, the designers have to keep bandwith in mind and so can't require too much data to have to pass back and forth. You will never get as finished a product in an MMO as you do in a single-player game because for 1, MMOs are constantly evolving so they have be designed with room to expand. 2, MMOs never end. The plotlines, the questing, the gameplay itself has to stay open ended. And 3, MMOs have to keep in mind bandwith and processor capacity and so have to be conservative with how many pixels and how much data is on the screen at any one time. These are issues single-player games do not have.

 

There are a few things they could have done no matter the type of game, like better questing, you dont have to be a singleplayer game to make questing fun, they could of thought of a more unique way to level up other than pick this up and kill that. Also the planets could be less linear with more features added to them (which is something singleplayer games cannot do) and when I mean less linear, I dont mean the questing expierence being linear, I mean give the planets more reason to explore and they could also add more pvp zones in each planet. They could have added more companion features and also find a way to cut travel times as well. So sure some of your point I can agree with but there were points I also disagree with as well.

[Daikeru]

There are a few things they could have done no matter the type of game, like better questing, you dont have to be a singleplayer game to make questing fun, they could of thought of a more unique way to level up other than pick this up and kill that. Also the planets could be less linear with more features added to them (which is something singleplayer games cannot do) and when I mean less linear, I dont mean the questing expierence being linear, I mean give the planets more reason to explore and they could also add more pvp zones in each planet. They could have added more companion features and also find a way to cut travel times as well. So sure some of your point I can agree with but there were points I also disagree with as well.

 

Do you mean free for all open world or do you mean just faction vs faction? o.O From Tatooine onward, excluding Balmorra, you already do get quite a bit of faction vs faction, the only problem is our quest areas rarely if ever intersect. What they need to do for future planets is have it so we're actually trying to enter parts of each other's cities rather than questing side by side. Sure it's annoying to be killed while questing, but if you didn't like such a thing why did you join a PvP server or enable your PvP mark in the first place?

 

Also, there are codexes and datacrons all over each planet. They provide minor stat bonuses and offer a few experience points, but those do tend to add up over the long run. What else would you like? Instead of saying "stuff", come up with examples and drop them off at the suggestion box.

[Kestalas]

Your expectations for a game that is developed as an MMO are far too high. Simple as that.

 

This is an on-going developed game. We are in 1.3, not a finished product. Let's get real here and this is no disrespect to Bioware. Did you TRULY expect such a polished, finished product from the get go? If you did, you don't understand how these things work. These things take TIME to polish. Since Bioware is inexperienced in MMOs and you KNEW that, can you honestly say you're surprised? Give them time to feel out what the community wants, what the game needs, and weigh everything in between.

 

All of your complaints are also citing things that you expect in a single-player game that isn't an MMO. MMO's are certainly different and must be developed as such. I can understand a thread like this if we're in 2.0 + with a couple expansions and nothing is fixed, but so soon? Your expectations are far too high. Simple as that. The game needs time to grow and develop as all MMO's do. If you don't understand that, then your opinion is moot to begin with. Apologies, I don't mean to offend.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Kestalas

[flyersfan]

Your response to number 3 is that most mmo's do this and it is normal in mmo's. If this game was supposed to be a normal MMO I would completely agree to this but they said this mmo would be completely unique and that they would stick away from the standard boring stuff that are in mmo's

 

I never got that vibe. Maybe it was said and I missed it, but I always had the feeling (and fear) that this would be just like an MMO, which it is. It's got the repetitive "questing," the continuous grind for armour and weapons, and the over-extended time that it takes to gain levels.

 

BioWare wanted to make an MMO that stands out and I feel like this one does. TOR offers a unique experience in that it provides something for single-player gamers to enjoy and bring them into the MMO market, which is why I'm here. However, and overall, the game is still an MMO. BioWare still needs to develop the game on the basis that it is an MMO to keep all the MMO players subscribed.

 

To be completely fair, single-player gamers aren't very likely to stay subscribed. Personally, I'm almost constantly debating whether or not to stay subscribed because I'd rather spend the money on another game. I enjoy playing TOR, but it is too MMO-esque for my tastes at times. Generally, a single-player gamer just isn't in it for the endgame gear chase. He or she will start a second, third, or fourth character to experience another story and will likely get bored when the journey to the end of the game is filled with too many familiar experiences and takes way too long.

 

The main point is that TOR is slightly unique, but it's not going to venture too far from typical MMO conventions. TOR is still an MMO and needs to appeal to MMO players. Its advantages and areas where it builds value as a product are the story-based elements and exciting levelling process.

[flyersfan]

Also, there are codexes and datacrons all over each planet. They provide minor stat bonuses and offer a few experience points, but those do tend to add up over the long run. What else would you like? Instead of saying "stuff", come up with examples and drop them off at the suggestion box.

 

I agree with gunnerjoe on this one. I think the planets are way too structured and are quite boring after the second go.

 

To spice up planets, I'd like to see them add way more area missions than there are now. I think exploring to find these missions would be a lot more fun and more rewarding than talking to Captain Windbag again and again and again. This would also have helped to limit the VO budget and time spent in the "quest pickup zones" where I feel like Genie from Aladdin going from person to person saying "what do you need? What do you need? What do you need?"

 

I'd also like to see those things become class-specific. For example, when a Trooper walks through the part of Hoth outside Aurek Base with a lot of Imperial soldiers laying about an area mission to take them out pops up, but nothing happens for anyone else. When a Smuggler speeders on by a decent sized White Maw outpost an area mission pops up to have them steal some resources for them and sell them to a Republic affiliate (you know, actually do some smuggling). When a Jedi strolls by some Sith it's time for that Jedi to let the Force flow and kick some Sith tail during an area mission.

 

That would cause players that are playing new classes to explore the worlds and have fun with a new experience. These could also evolve into chain missions where you report back to an NPC for some chit-chat about what you just did and possibly lead into something more. The class-specific element would spice up a great deal of things.

[ecint]

On the whole, I'd have to say most of the complaints voiced by the OP come down to the fact that MMOs are required to function in certain ways. I agree on some points, more or less, and think that BW/EA/Mythic oversold certain things, but I expect that sort of marketing fluff.

 

 

1. Planets are linear? I tend to agree, though I'd say the problem is that the progression as a whole is too linear, there are no real options of where to go and what to do, as far as PvE play goes. A few choices of planet for a given level range, at least on some ranges, might be nice (Go to Taris or planet Wheretheheck for lv 16-20 republic, etc.). I would hope that options will be added in the future, though I've seen no sign that will happen, so the hope is barely clinging to life.

One comment though is that most games are pretty linear, unless they are true sandbox mmo's, and those tend to leave people wandering aimlessly.

 

2. Choices don't matter? Yes and no. I've gone through the same story (or parts of them) with the same class a couple times, intentionally, to see what would differ. The exact rewards/notes you get via mail vary according to choices you made, later conversations do actually reflect previous choices. In the case of my JK, I was very surprised how dissed he was in the finale conversation (reward ceremony) because he was tainted by the dark side. I think it safe to assume that conversation would have been different if he was lightside (or neutral?).

However, certain elements of the game, e.g. the situation on Taris, cannot be apparently different to you because the multitude of other players still have to go through the game there, and it has to be the same for them as it was for you. So, in that respect, it is true that the game doesn't change, but I don't see how someone could reasonably expect it to, given the mmo framework (except for those subtle things I mentioned).

 

3. Pointless quests? Nature of the beast, welcome to the world of mmos. As for outleveling or being-outleveled, I found that by doing only the class missions and world story arc, I was keeping pace with the level of the planets and class mission. The only bonus missions I did were those that happened organically (if I had to go out of my way too kill an extra 20 enemies, or find the whatsits I didn't bother). One exception, when playing a stealth class and avoiding large amounts of kills, I found that I was falling behind a bit, but not massively (a level or two, by end of chap 2).

 

4. Lack of companion interaction? I have to agree here. Some details and particulars I could add or subtract from, but by and large, this "feature" didn't seem as rich as promised.

 

5. Not heroic enough? Well, yeah, I agree, sorta, with this. But then, I didn't expect my own movie, I expected an mmo. Given the mmo framework, I didn't get anything less than I expected. I will say that more use could have been made of timed missions to enhance the urgency of a situation, but there are often technical problems (many easily solved) with that.

 

6. Stalling? Again, it's part of mmo's. I didn't expect any more or less, though I agree that some of the tasks seem a bit trivial (the story progression could have been written a little better) at certain points.

[gunnerjoe]

Your expectations for a game that is developed as an MMO are far too high. Simple as that.

 

This is an on-going developed game. We are in 1.3, not a finished product. Let's get real here and this is no disrespect to Bioware. Did you TRULY expect such a polished, finished product from the get go? If you did, you don't understand how these things work. These things take TIME to polish. Since Bioware is inexperienced in MMOs and you KNEW that, can you honestly say you're surprised? Give them time to feel out what the community wants, what the game needs, and weigh everything in between.

 

All of your complaints are also citing things that you expect in a single-player game that isn't an MMO. MMO's are certainly different and must be developed as such. I can understand a thread like this if we're in 2.0 + with a couple expansions and nothing is fixed, but so soon? Your expectations are far too high. Simple as that. The game needs time to grow and develop as all MMO's do. If you don't understand that, then your opinion is moot to begin with. Apologies, I don't mean to offend.

 

What I would say in response to what you just said is, Most of the issues I talked about cannot be "polished" because they are big issues, I understand the whole "singleplayer" thing but here is the thing, it does not take a singleplayer game to make questing fun, you dont need a singleplayer game to interact with companions more, combat is up in the air, I am sure they could have done something better with it to keep your eyes more on the fight rather than the hotkey, Planets could have been better and I would say the same thing I said about questing for the stallers part. Choices not mattering might be the only thing I can think of that a singleplayer game could really put into affect but other than that, everything I said could have been done better and sure as hell would wait 1-3 more years for them to get

[gunnerjoe]

Do you mean free for all open world or do you mean just faction vs faction? o.O From Tatooine onward, excluding Balmorra, you already do get quite a bit of faction vs faction, the only problem is our quest areas rarely if ever intersect. What they need to do for future planets is have it so we're actually trying to enter parts of each other's cities rather than questing side by side. Sure it's annoying to be killed while questing, but if you didn't like such a thing why did you join a PvP server or enable your PvP mark in the first place?

 

Also, there are codexes and datacrons all over each planet. They provide minor stat bonuses and offer a few experience points, but those do tend to add up over the long run. What else would you like? Instead of saying "stuff", come up with examples and drop them off at the suggestion box.

 

What I mean is for example, if you play republic, you dont explore half of tatooine if you complete your entire story there, maybe they should give more reason to explore the other half or since most class story parts are instances, maybe they should give the player later levels to revist older planets, for example and I am just making this up but lets say I am finding clues about some Sith Lord and by the end of finding clues, I find out that he is hiding in the Old Jedi Temple on Coruscant and have some instance there level 35 instance there. I saw this feature slightly to none in SWTOR so that might be a good way to get people to explore more...

[gabigool]

2. Choices don't matter? Yes and no. I've gone through the same story (or parts of them) with the same class a couple times, intentionally, to see what would differ. The exact rewards/notes you get via mail vary according to choices you made, later conversations do actually reflect previous choices. In the case of my JK, I was very surprised how dissed he was in the finale conversation (reward ceremony) because he was tainted by the dark side. I think it safe to assume that conversation would have been different if he was lightside (or neutral?).

However, certain elements of the game, e.g. the situation on Taris, cannot be apparently different to you because the multitude of other players still have to go through the game there, and it has to be the same for them as it was for you. So, in that respect, it is true that the game doesn't change, but I don't see how someone could reasonably expect it to, given the mmo framework (except for those subtle things I mentioned).

 

seriously last couple chars I've leveled I just spam spacebar 1. Every time. There is no benefit to doing anything else after one playthrough. Light/Dark doesn't matter. companion affection doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter.

 

My fundamental issue with the game is that until 50 there is little to no incentive to instance. I would hate this game a lot less if I could find groups for flashpoints but there is no reason to run them so even on a server with 250 people sitting in the fleet i'll sit in a queue for an hour as a healer.

 

The quests ARE boring. After the starter planet (of which you only have two choices per faction) you only have ONE path to level. The sidequests aren't funny, interesting, compelling or interesting. They are there to serve one purpose - grind xp. Yes, its stupid easy/fast to level to 50 but honestly it feels like such a grind after the first time. I have a char sitting in the fleet praying for a Mandelorian Raiders queue to pop because I can't stomach going to Tatooine... Again. I'd rather sit on the fleet reading a book waiting for my groupfinder to pop for a flashpoint until I'm high enough to just blast through the main storyline quests than disable 10 electrogizmoodles in Nar Shadaa or kill 30 roach commanders in a cave on Voss.

 

Once you hit 50 the game is fine although it's small - I can live with that given the short time it has existed. The mechanics of a lot of the operations encounters are cool. The dailies are not too much of a timesink. All in all its close in some ways. Unlikely to survive much longer, but nicely done in many ways. But the leveling zones are way too redundant and laborious that the ease is offset by the mind-numbing feel of them.

 

I would like to see instance leveling xp scaled up or a decent bump to the trash loot table of instances to encourage more people to want to instance in order to provide an alternative PVE mechanism for leveling.

[gunnerjoe]

seriously last couple chars I've leveled I just spam spacebar 1. Every time. There is no benefit to doing anything else after one playthrough. Light/Dark doesn't matter. companion affection doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter.

 

My fundamental issue with the game is that until 50 there is little to no incentive to instance. I would hate this game a lot less if I could find groups for flashpoints but there is no reason to run them so even on a server with 250 people sitting in the fleet i'll sit in a queue for an hour as a healer.

 

The quests ARE boring. After the starter planet (of which you only have two choices per faction) you only have ONE path to level. The sidequests aren't funny, interesting, compelling or interesting. They are there to serve one purpose - grind xp. Yes, its stupid easy/fast to level to 50 but honestly it feels like such a grind after the first time. I have a char sitting in the fleet praying for a Mandelorian Raiders queue to pop because I can't stomach going to Tatooine... Again. I'd rather sit on the fleet reading a book waiting for my groupfinder to pop for a flashpoint until I'm high enough to just blast through the main storyline quests than disable 10 electrogizmoodles in Nar Shadaa or kill 30 roach commanders in a cave on Voss.

 

Once you hit 50 the game is fine although it's small - I can live with that given the short time it has existed. The mechanics of a lot of the operations encounters are cool. The dailies are not too much of a timesink. All in all its close in some ways. Unlikely to survive much longer, but nicely done in many ways. But the leveling zones are way too redundant and laborious that the ease is offset by the mind-numbing feel of them.

 

I would like to see instance leveling xp scaled up or a decent bump to the trash loot table of instances to encourage more people to want to instance in order to provide an alternative PVE mechanism for leveling.

 

Yep, its not worth spacebaring 80% of the quests just to find out what happens with the class storyline. They also need to get rid of the holy trinity so grouping is faster or.... do cross server LFG