Saber Storm talent is bugged (cause and fix identified within)

[Crawelc]

Been Carnage/Combat Mara/Sent since day 3 wave 6. 1.2 was a start to bring us in line with the other 2 specs. Then my hero LagunaD put in a bunch of time and found out 2 THATS RIGHT 2 of our speced abilities werent working as intended. They fixed one and now this. If combat is in line with watchman ill drive to Austin and personally kiss Peckenpaus' ***. When I unsub this is going to be the reason I put in my poll.

[LagunaD]

It looks to me like yet another example of a spec getting screwed in PvE for the sake of PvP.

 

Even on the training dummy, I think Combat is *at best* on par with Watchman, or more likely a little bit (couple percent) worse.

 

If so, for any real boss fight where you can't just stand there and wail on the target, Watchman must be superior thanks to doing DoT damage while Combat is doing none.

 

For PvP, burst damage is what generates whining, so we get to stay gimped in PvE as a result.

 

So infuriating.

 

When they nerf a spec, either directly, or by deciding not to fix a clear bug we have suffered with for MONTHS, why don't they show us these all-knowing, all-seeing metrics? Probably because they are all based on PvP.

Edited August 8, 2012 by LagunaD

[terencechan]

For PvP, burst damage is what generates whining, so we get to stay gimped in PvE as a result..

 

Nonsenes. The burst damage that melts people's faces in 5 secs comes from throwing up zen, an on-use relic and reusuable adrenals to generate an additional 800 power increase over 15 secs.

 

The normal burst dmg that combat sents can do is laughable, very far apart from each burst and only marginally higher that what watchman specs can do. That is why on the ops dummy over a 5 min parse, a combat sent will be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a similarly geared watchman sent. It is only for 30se parses using all cooldowns do u ever see a small spike above Watchman.

 

PVE Sents have NO VIABLE CHOICE where it comes to play styles if that's the case.

 

BW noticed how lopsided things were and decided to fix their unbalanced tree construct. Lets not even go to Focus..

 

For BW to say they have finally noticed the fail in their coding, then say oh we shouldn't have put it there in the first place so we are going to pretend it was never there is very disturbing to the confidence people have in whatever BW claims is happening to combat dynamics.

 

Shame, this game is really gong to the dogs.

[LagunaD]

That is why on the ops dummy over a 5 min parse, a combat sent will be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a similarly geared watchman sent.

 

I suppose it depends what you mean by "significantly", but I'm not convinced of this. I am only about 50-75 DPS behind our raid's Watchman Sentinel on the dummy for 5+ minute parses; he has two BH Hilts while I only have one, and he has a couple marginally better mods (e.g. Might Armoring 26 in his Belt/Bracers, compared to my 25's in those slots) and probably a better relic. About 1700-1750 for him vs. 1625-1675 for me with stims and no Inspiration. Neither of us may be the best players in the game, but we are both pretty experienced at our specs.

 

I figured the bug fix and truly equal gear would probably make up most of this difference. That bug-which-is-no-longer-a-bug is costing me about 2% of my potential damage, which is about half the difference right there.

[AidanLightwalker]

@LagunaD

 

Are you sure it's only 2%? On my 6 min parses, I might have mid to 270 blade rushes with 70 - 80 atura form crits. That's with a crit rating of 28% (no smuggler buff). I haven't done the math yet but I can't help my gut instinct that 30% more to those 70 - 80 could make up more than a 2% overall? But then again, we've seen my math lead my a stray before in the past. Have you ran the numbers? And hypothetical, if atura form was giving that 30%, would it change the power to crit optimization chart at all, or no?

Edited August 9, 2012 by AidanLightwalker

[LagunaD]

@LagunaD

 

Are you sure it's only 2%? On my 6 min parses, I might have mid to 270 blade rushes with 70 - 80 atura form crits. That's with a crit rating of 28% (no smuggler buff). I haven't done the math yet but I can't help my gut instinct that 30% more to those 70 - 80 could make up more than a 2% overall? But then again, we've seen my math lead my a stray before in the past. Have you ran the numbers? And hypothetical, if atura form was giving that 30%, would it change the power to crit optimization chart at all, or no?

 

When I ran the numbers, it was about 2%. Let me check again.

 

Using a training dummy parse where I did 536,892 total damage, Ataru Form made up 116,326. Of the Atarus, 72/212 (34%) were crits. My crit bonus is 79.2%.

 

So the Ataru damage without crits would have been about 116326/(1+0.34*0.792) = 91669.

 

If the bug were fixed, Ataru would have a critical bonus of 109.2%, and Ataru would have done 91669*(1+0.34*1.092) = 125666 damage.

 

The difference is (125666-116326) = 9340 damage out of my total of 536892, so percentage-wise: 1.74%.

 

Yes, the curve I've posted was assuming the bug was fixed, and not fixing it lowers the value of Critical Rating slightly. But the optimal value is still right around 150 (~30% Melee Critical Chance with buffs) for me. Not any big change.

[ekimmak]

Seriously?

 

The bonus damage for Ataru strike was glitched, and they decide to remove all traces instead of fix it?

Every other DPS tree has their signature attacks getting bonus crit damage, why not combat? Or have they given up on buffing things, because they'll just nerf it later?

[NasherUK]

What they meant to say, was they already balanced the class on the assumption that this skill was working, when it wasn't and that fixing it would make the class overpowered (more than it already is...)

 

It was the logical thing to do. Fixing it would mean wasting time nerfing other abilities to compensate.

Edited August 9, 2012 by NasherUK

[jstergar]

When I ran the numbers, it was about 2%. Let me check again.

 

Using a training dummy parse where I did 536,892 total damage, Ataru Form made up 116,326. Of the Atarus, 72/212 (34%) were crits. My crit bonus is 79.2%.

 

Can you tell us what length of time did this parse cover? I'm trying to make sense of it. No disrespect involved. I'm just one of those guys when I can't get my head wrapped around something I get infactuated with figuring it out.

 

I figured you might have been pulling 1600ish DPS so I did some math:

 

536892 / 1600 = 335.55 second parse time = 5.59 minutes

 

So I figured it was a 6 minute parse cause there's no freaking way you can get 212 procs in within 5 minutes.

 

212 procs every 1.5 seconds = 318 seconds = 5.3 minutes

 

So it would take over 5 minutes to proc 212 times BUT that's if you proc every 1.5 seconds which is impossible with a 20% proc rate. So let's go backward and figure approximately how long this parse took based off of 212 procs. We know 20% of melee attacks will trigger a proc. That's one in every 5. So:

 

212 X 5 = 1060 melee attacks

 

That's 1060 melee attacks every 1.5 seconds and 20% of them land which is 212. So how long does 1060 melee attacks take at 1.5 GCD?

 

1060 X 1.5 = 1590 seconds = 26.5 minutes

 

No way you did it that long cause your fingers would fall off. But the math makes sense. 1590 seconds gives you exactly 1060 melee attacks and 20% of them land for a total of 212 Ataru procs.

 

Ok so let's say it was a 25 minute parse. 25 minutes is 1500 seconds. You DPS with a total of 536,892 damage is:

 

536,892 / 1500 = 358 DPS

 

358 DPS ain't right cause you already mentioned you pull around 1600. So let's say you really did a 5-6 minute parse run. If the parser is correct with 212 Ataru hits then that means you proc'd a Ataru every single melee attack and not just on 20% of them. I dunno. Help me out here cause this 2% DPS reduction ain't adding up for me.

Edited August 9, 2012 by jstergar

[LagunaD]

There are a few things you are overlooking.

 

1) Ataru procs automatically on every Blade Rush, and this is independent of the ICD on the random proc (sometimes it will proc twice on a single Blade Rush, once automatically, and once randomly).

 

2) The Blade Rush buff, which I endeavor keep up at all times, increases the random proc chance to 50% per attack.

 

The parse was 5:27.

Edited August 9, 2012 by LagunaD

[AidanLightwalker]

Thanks LagunaD for running the numbers. And he's right about blade rush and natural atura procs. Alot of people misunderstand that mechanic at first.

[jstergar]

There are a few things you are overlooking.

 

1) Ataru procs automatically on every Blade Rush, and this is independent of the ICD on the random proc (sometimes it will proc twice on a single Blade Rush, once automatically, and once randomly).

 

2) The Blade Rush buff, which I endeavor keep up at all times, increases the random proc chance to 50% per attack.

 

The parse was 5:27.

 

That's great information. Thanks for taking the time to explain it further. I, and I'm sure alot of other new sents, appreciate it.

[LagunaD]

That's great information. Thanks for taking the time to explain it further. I, and I'm sure alot of other new sents, appreciate it.

 

The Jedi way is to serve...

 

[Nolenthar]

Nonsenes. The burst damage that melts people's faces in 5 secs comes from throwing up zen, an on-use relic and reusuable adrenals to generate an additional 800 power increase over 15 secs.

 

Leap --> Zealous Strike --> Blade Rush --> Precision Strike --> Blade Storm --> Masterstrike

 

That's 6 GCD (Masterstrike being 3 seconds I count it as 6 GCD) which can deliver close to 20K damage, as Masterstrike by itself can do close to 14K with Precision Strike, Blade Storm will crit for around 4-5K, and the other abilities will do around 2K damage.

Anni cannot do that so fast.

Of course, if you have Zen, then Blade Rush will be even better than Masterstrike as you will hit 6 times in 2GCD with 100% armor pen.

 

It's an insane burst.

 

To answer about this "non fix" by Bioware. There has been a quite active discussion about Carnage (Combat) and Anni (Watchman) on Mara forum with parses. Both specs clearly are in the 5% window, and with the current whining about everything concerning the sentinel, developpers were probably right to not improve it as it will have been seen as a buff of a class everyone cries about.

 

Yes, PvP is destroying PvE (never the other way around as mobs and bosses don't have access to the forum and don't whine), but if you know a game where it doesn't happen, I would be interested as this happens everywhere, and this is baning all MMOs.

 

I'm looking forward to the company who would be smart enough to have EACH and every ability dealing different damage in PvP and PvE, so they can adjust stuff where it's needed without breaking another stuff.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Nolenthar

[AidanLightwalker]

I think you can only slip in 4 blade rushes now per precision slash since its duration got dropped from 6 secs to 4.5

 

And I think optimal rotation is now 4 and a blade storm? With blade storm being the last ability being fired at the 4 sec mark.

Edited August 12, 2012 by AidanLightwalker

[AidanLightwalker]

Isn't the gcd 1.5 secs and dropped. 5 for br during zen? Making it 1 sec?