You Need To Reward Open World PvP - ASAP!

[LukeRPWalker]

"hey we got an experienced team working on pvp. so shut the fudge up, sit down and let us do our job - we know what we are doing"

 

All I hear.

[_DaGreat]

Problem with rewards in open pvp areas over warzones is that WZ are a more controlled environment where there are some instance of fairplay rules implemented and enforced...to a degree. Having rewards for teamplay and coordination to defeat the other team while not relying on overwhelming numbers justifies a reward system.

 

An open PVP environment is quite unpredictable, knowing what we know (the ratio of republic to empire) it's going to be very difficult to find any sort of balance in world pvp. You WILL have empire farming Republic in open pvp for rewards. Diminishing returns on kills will only help so much, the fact that one side will control most of the open world pvp will mean that the side being controlled will simply be unable to progress in open world pvp while the other will slowly but surely climb the ranks.

 

Before someone chimes in with the "it's not live yet, the numbers will balance out" bs reply...Some servers already have massive que's at times, the likely hood of the ratios evening out are very slim, the current split of republic to empire is probably going to stay close to where it is now and some servers are 4:1 ratio of empire to republic (from some numbers that I've seen) at best that evens out to 2:1

 

I can see the case for making open pvp yield some sort of reward I just also see the difficulty of doing so for the sake of fairplay. I think the pr and maybe devs may have dropped the ball a bit with making the empire more enticing to play over the republic.

 

Also if you're really a true pvp'er you don't need rewards to enjoy PVP be it open world or instanced.

 

I come from the Age of Conan mmo where we had to wait almost a year for any sort of pvp reward system to be implemented before that time we had a blast having huge battles in open zones with several guilds going at it just for the fun and glory of combat. In fact, having pvp xp I think took some fun out of it because people started zerging for the points and I truly believe that is what would happen to open pvp in this game as well.

 

'open PVP environment is quite unpredictable' and this is what makes it FUN!

 

For all of us who signed up for PVP servers I think we did under the understanding that things will not always be 'fair'. Sometime you get rolled by a larger force. Sometimes you can get on the bat phone to some allies and come back and roll the guys that just rolled you. They in turn may do the same. The ever changing and unpredictable nature of world pvp and the ability to continue to change tactics is what makes TRue wpvp so much fun.

[Darth_Eclipses]

Problem with rewards in open pvp areas over warzones is that WZ are a more controlled environment where there are some instance of fairplay rules implemented and enforced...to a degree. Having rewards for teamplay and coordination to defeat the other team while not relying on overwhelming numbers justifies a reward system.

 

An open PVP environment is quite unpredictable, knowing what we know (the ratio of republic to empire) it's going to be very difficult to find any sort of balance in world pvp. You WILL have empire farming Republic in open pvp for rewards. Diminishing returns on kills will only help so much, the fact that one side will control most of the open world pvp will mean that the side being controlled will simply be unable to progress in open world pvp while the other will slowly but surely climb the ranks.

 

Before someone chimes in with the "it's not live yet, the numbers will balance out" bs reply...Some servers already have massive que's at times, the likely hood of the ratios evening out are very slim, the current split of republic to empire is probably going to stay close to where it is now and some servers are 4:1 ratio of empire to republic (from some numbers that I've seen) at best that evens out to 2:1

 

I can see the case for making open pvp yield some sort of reward I just also see the difficulty of doing so for the sake of fairplay. I think the pr and maybe devs may have dropped the ball a bit with making the empire more enticing to play over the republic.

 

Also if you're really a true pvp'er you don't need rewards to enjoy PVP be it open world or instanced.

 

I come from the Age of Conan mmo where we had to wait almost a year for any sort of pvp reward system to be implemented before that time we had a blast having huge battles in open zones with several guilds going at it just for the fun and glory of combat. In fact, having pvp xp I think took some fun out of it because people started zerging for the points and I truly believe that is what would happen to open pvp in this game as well.

 

This is false.

 

You can create systems with diminishing returns and checks and balances. Aion has a great system where you not only gank valor ranks on kills, but lose them with deaths. In fact - they solved the problem of "farming friends" as the higher your rank - the more you would lose when you died.

 

Secondly, you'll find many PvP'ers love PvP more than they love a faction, meaning that if one is overpowered, many will roll on another side just to be the underdogs.

 

Furthermore, BW could be clever and assign bonuses and rewards proportional to faction imbalances on a server by server basis.

 

There is so much they could do, certainly more than nothing at all.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Darth_Eclipses

[Darth_Eclipses]

 

This is actually not the case. The PvP Servers seem to be very popular. My PvP server, for instance, had a 1 hour and 30 minute queue yesterday to get in game. Pretty much every other PvP server is full and most have queues, albeit not as long, but the populations certainly aren't suffering for a lack of popularity. Players obviously want PvP, and they want good Open World PvP based on the surprising popularity of PvP servers. However, Open World PvP doesn't seem to really be delivering at this point.

 

 

You mistook when I said, maybe I could have worded it better?

 

I meant to say that PvP servers are actually exceedingly popular, but the reasons they are - isn't because of queued, instanced WarZones.

 

People WANT Open World PvP - and they WANT it to matter.

 

Hope that clears any confusion.

[Caustic]

'open PVP environment is quite unpredictable' and this is what makes it FUN!

 

For all of us who signed up for PVP servers I think we did under the understanding that things will not always be 'fair'. Sometime you get rolled by a larger force. Sometimes you can get on the bat phone to some allies and come back and roll the guys that just rolled you. They in turn may do the same. The ever changing and unpredictable nature of world pvp and the ability to continue to change tactics is what makes TRue wpvp so much fun.

 

I understand this, and you won't find me disagreeing with anything you're saying. The underlying point of my post was that if you find world pvp fun you should be doing it for the love of pvp. The notion of reward being attached to everything you do is a bit strange to me. I play the game to enjoy it, if I enjoy pvp I don't need a carrot to chase. When I competed Q2 and Q3Arena over 10 years a go we didn't have a reward system to chase around everyone played to compete, have fun and brag about it.

 

I dunno maybe it's an old school mentality I just don't feel the need to be showered in rewards for everything I do. To each his own I guess.

[Betabane]

I'm level 20 without a single world pvp encounter, that, in my eyes, is already a failure on a pvp server. Why have I not seen an enemy player after 10+ hours of play.

 

Id like to see neutral zones with great quest's and instances for both sides, resulting in conflict. Foward bases in each others territory allowing for intense wpvp where the reward is control over questing areas/questing npc's/instances/traveled routes/planets?/resources? and the loss is time/credits/faction bonuses/access to quests etc.

 

World pvp is all about creating that tension in the air, the knowledge that someone might jump you in the middle of a quest or when your traveling, the excitement and accelerated heartrate as you travel through a territory known for enemy activity to get to your objective.

 

My first 20 levels have for all i know, been played out on a pve server. It is very dissapointing to say the least, I must ask myself, does this game get my heart racing? The answer is no for now, not by far, everything is happening in a very controlled fashion, no room for excitement.

 

Pvp is the only real dynamic content in an mmorpg that is ever unpredictable and ever exciting, to not invest in these aspects is beyond me.

 

I am obviously not the only one with these or similar views, hopefully they will make pvp viable in this game.

[DarthOvertone]

And, I never understood whats with all the people asking for world pvp in a game thats clearly not designed for it.

 

Trouble understanding? Look at the populations of the SWTOR PvP Servers. Notice they are pretty much all FULL. This sir, is an embrace and demand for Open World PvP, which is essentially why players are joining those servers. My Server, in particular, had a 1 hour and 30 minute queue time yesterday. That was the longest queue of any SWTOR server at the time, carebear servers included.

 

And you are wrong. SWTOR was clearly designed for PvP. Granted, it obviously wasn't designed real well for Open PvP. However, it certainly was designed for PvP, and since Instanced PvP can be done on any server, the fact that a massive amount of players are flocking to Open World PvP servers is proof enough that peeps want that type of content. BW would be horribly remiss not to accommodate those players.

 

 

Yes, because rewarding the Imp zerg makes perfect sense. Why farm quest mobs when you can just farm Republic lowbies to get better PvP gear to farm even faster? Or, if you are thinking of a Wintergrasp-like zone, well I don't know where to start. Open-world PvP is a numbers game, and Imps have about a zillion more.

 

This is an interesting point. While I'm fully in favor of more Open World PvP and rewards, the last type of gameplay style I would like to see rewarded is talentless faceroll zerging. Clearly, the zerg is in favor of the Imperial side at the moment. Not sure how one would balance out the rewards and conditions for good fights.

 

 

Aion is horrible, don't waste your time. It's dying.

 

Aion was semi-fun for like 3-4 months. Nothing to see there, move along...

 

 

The underlying point of my post was that if you find world pvp fun you should be doing it for the love of pvp.

 

This is true, to a degree. Personally, as a player, I PvP for the good fight. Of course the definition of a good fight is almost entirely subjective. However, this is a game. And in the end, if BW wants people to play their game perpetually, there needs to be a purpose or incentive to continuously seek out fights. Otherwise, someone like myself would simply quit playing the game after having enough good fights.

 

I don't think anyone is asking for anything major. Some sort of War-Tab, server Leaderboards, even an impact on World game mechanics like faction control of spaceports or areas would be a good start to making everyone feel like they are part of something bigger than their own personal satisfaction.

[Gamecrazed]

I disagree with the OP. I don't think they need to add rewards or any more incentive for World PVP.

 

As _DaGreat wrote:

 

'open PVP environment is quite unpredictable' and this is what makes it FUN!...

 

This is exactly why I play on a PVP server in SWTOR and in WoW back in the day. You basically get nothing in World PVP in WoW. The experience gain is worthless compared to battlegrounds. My buddies would get a group together and go kill the opposing faction for fun not for the rewards. If we wanted rewards we'd do arena and/or battlegrounds.

 

I don't consider Wintergrasp or Tol Barad world PVP. You have to queue up for these or you get kicked out of the zone. I'm down for "bigger" battlegrounds like these but don't think world PVP rewards is necessary.

 

World PVP is "just for fun" and for the urgency to always watch your back in fear of getting ganked.

 

Rewards should be left in the more controlled environments.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Gamecrazed

[ComeAndSee]

No MMO I've played has really rewarded you for world PvP.

[IcemanJP]

No MMO I've played has really rewarded you for world PvP.

 

 

then you did not play many with good OpenWorld pvp rulesets.

[TimtTim]

/sign!

 

Open world PvP is the roots of PVP and shuld never be left on the bench in any mmo!

[Silvang]

I do not understand how it is even possible for a polished MMO of 2011 (practically 2012), to be repeating launch mistakes of previous MMO launches.

 

The least i expected from SWTOR was to build upon the existing and possibly make its own, new mistakes. I certainly am not inclined in waiting again 3-6 months until old MMO mistakes (like 0 reward for world PvP) are repeated and taken care off like in past MMO launches. For the time that SW:TOR comes at, and the amount of marketing it received, i am afraid it doesn't have the grace period to repeat (and i am only talking about old issues here) these kinds of mistakes and shortcomings. Expectations have been raised greatly as the MMO genre has matured over the past 7 years, and PvP in SW:TOR is currently seriously overlooked.

 

Don't get me wrong, i so far enjoy the game greatly, but as an addicted PvPer i find the systems to be lacking to say the least (and don't get me even started on the terrible, just terrible Auction House).

 

I do have the utmost faith in Bioware to meet these expectations, but i cannot stress enough the urgency to at least meet the industry standards on some aspects (and again... i am talking about very specific issues here - it is beyond debate that SW:TOR has raised the bar in a great number of other features. This is mostly PvP related).

[Van_BlanK]

I don't see how this is a 'mistake' made 'at launch' like 'other mmos'. I see this as a clear design choice and something, I hope, they change in the future. It isn't necessary to provide incentives for OWPvP at launch. I do feel it will help foster a strong PvP community in the future.

[Silvang]

You see this as a design choice, yet you hope for them to change it in the future. I don't see how these two relate. If its a design choice, its how they want it and i don't see any reason for them to change it then.

 

In my view its part of an overall un-polishness/overlooking of a strict set of features (like the AH i mentioned). I am not here to blame anyone, one can only have so much time to polish everything, but in my view industry standards should first be met in every aspect before adding extras, not overpolish certain aspects and overlook other ones.

[Mhorham]

everything is in place for actual faction based player competition in the open world, but it just feels like it is not turned on for some reason.

 

Tat and alderan are great fights, but like everyone says there is no tangible incentives. yes we get to adventure in open world spaces when we kill our way through them, but there is zero gain for doing the most challenging form of combat this game (any game) has to offer. And that is dynamic open world pvp combat.

 

Ilum is just a big battle ground and I do look forward to getting there, but what about open world pvp on the way there? Why have pvp servers and then cut the nads out of actual pvp within the game?

 

Battlegrounds/warzones are just instanced minigames. Its not the same thing at all. Its a frag contest sideshow, but has no actual relevance to the game world the way open world pvp does.

[lukulius]

It is quite obvious to me that Silvang is right. Well said.

[Van_BlanK]

You see this as a design choice, yet you hope for them to change it in the future. I don't see how these two relate. If its a design choice, its how they want it and i don't see any reason for them to change it then.

 

In my view its part of an overall un-polishness/overlooking of a strict set of features (like the AH i mentioned). I am not here to blame anyone, one can only have so much time to polish everything, but in my view industry standards should first be met in every aspect before adding extras, not overpolish certain aspects and overlook other ones.

 

They relate like this, since you apparently need me to break it down for you.

 

They want people to PvP, at least at this stage in the games life cycle, in clearly defined zones (WZ, Ilum). This may be to prevent griefing at launch, which is understandable, and I hope they change this design decision in the future.

 

Many, many games do not offer OWPVP, polished or not. Strict set of features is subjective, and I agree with you that it should be in the game in a mature state. But that is our opinion coming from people who enjoy PvP. Many do not, and a sect of those that do enjoy it in clearly defined areas such as WZ's.

 

The galactic market sucks, we agree on that point.

[Mishmashmoo]

I support this post

[Vislo]

Havent done Open-world PvP yet, but if its anything swtor needs to work on its PvP, and by the sound of no rewards at all they need some. /signed

[Van_BlanK]

On second thought, why does it need to be rewarded with items or titles or what not. Why not just do it cause you like to do it. Im going to make leveling for Empire nubs on my server a living hell once I hit the level cap and probably before that. Because thats what I enjoy doing. I don't need a lightsaber or something to make me want to.

[Silvang]

They relate like this, since you apparently need me to break it down for you.

 

They want people to PvP, at least at this stage in the games life cycle, in clearly defined zones (WZ, Ilum). This may be to prevent griefing at launch, which is understandable, and I hope they change this design decision in the future.

 

Many, many games do not offer OWPVP, polished or not. Strict set of features is subjective, and I agree with you that it should be in the game in a mature state. But that is our opinion coming from people who enjoy PvP. Many do not, and a sect of those that do enjoy it in clearly defined areas such as WZ's.

 

The galactic market sucks, we agree on that point.

 

You don't need to break down something for me to attempt to validate your point, i perfectly understood your position the first time. My opinion stands nonetheless for the following reasons:

 

Griefing is completely irrelevant as an argument since you know exactly what you are signing up for when you choose a PvP server (nothing that could provoke griefing would take place in a non-PvP server). In case you misclicked, or didn't know...no problems. The game itself pops up a warning sign, to make sure you do. So, no excuses there.

 

Yes, i am a person who enjoys PvP. That is why i chose a PvP server. The sole difference between a PvE and PvP server is the ability to do OWPvP without mutual consent (turning on the PvP flag). Those that "do not" enjoy PvP and enjoy it "in clearly defined areas such as WZ's" have the option to play on a PvE server and not a single part of their experience is diminshed. I on the other hand, who enjoy OWPvP, and signed up for (by choosing a PvP server) should have the chance to see that choice manifest.

 

This is not an overall discussion of we vs you (PvP vs PvE). There are servers for that, where OWPvP won't bother you without consent so no problems on griefing or anything of that kind. But even there, when you choose to PvP you should do this, on a PvP system that is thought off, and polished as the rest of the game.

 

TL;DR The point of this discussion is how unpolished the PvP is, not wether PvP as a feature provokes griefing or not.

 

PS: when i was referring to a strict set of features, i wasn't pointing at an absolute set that needs to be met everywhere. More that the set of features that is lacking is small rather than huge - but its lacking is obvious.

[Silvang]

On second thought, why does it need to be rewarded with items or titles or what not. Why not just do it cause you like to do it. Im going to make leveling for Empire nubs on my server a living hell once I hit the level cap and probably before that. Because thats what I enjoy doing. I don't need a lightsaber or something to make me want to.

 

I am with you partly on that. Items should not be rewarded. Titles (lets say via Valor, or OWPvP specific titles and what-not) would be a good incentive. A system similar to the Old Olympic Games philosophy, where fame was the only gain. Nothing game-breaking, you can call it "vanity" item/reward. But some form of rewarding is required. And that's just touching the rewards part of the whole PvP-related issues.

[Van_BlanK]

You don't need to break down something for me to attempt to validate your point, i perfectly understood your position the first time. My opinion stands nonetheless for the following reasons:

 

Griefing is completely irrelevant as an argument since you know exactly what you are signing up for when you choose a PvP server (nothing that could provoke griefing would take place in a non-PvP server). In case you misclicked, or didn't know...no problems. The game itself pops up a warning sign, to make sure you do. So, no excuses there.

 

Yes, i am a person who enjoys PvP. That is why i chose a PvP server. The sole difference between a PvE and PvP server is the ability to do OWPvP without mutual consent (turning on the PvP flag). Those that "do not" enjoy PvP and enjoy it "in clearly defined areas such as WZ's" have the option to play on a PvE server and not a single part of their experience is diminshed. I on the other hand, who enjoy OWPvP, and signed up for (by choosing a PvP server) should have the chance to see that choice manifest.

 

This is not an overall discussion of we vs you (PvP vs PvE). There are servers for that, where OWPvP won't bother you without consent so no problems on griefing or anything of that kind. But even there, when you choose to PvP you should do this, on a PvP system that is thought off, and polished as the rest of the game.

 

TL;DR The point of this discussion is how unpolished the PvP is, not wether PvP as a feature provokes griefing or not.

 

PS: when i was referring to a strict set of features, i wasn't pointing at an absolute set that needs to be met everywhere. More that the set of features that is lacking is small rather than huge - but its lacking is obvious.

 

I disagree that the PvP is unpolished. I agree that it is lacking. I agree with your points about PvP versus PvE servers. But if you look at it from a customer care standpoint (which BW absolutely does), they do not want the experience diminished regardless. The warning pop up is an example of their attention to this. They have made 3 unique WZ's and an OWPVP zone at launch. They are aware and support PvP. They do not meet our expectations at this point in time, but that doesn't mean they won't. BW has a long standing record of putting out industry leading games and content. MMO's never ship with everything we want. Not even WoW did that.

 

I'm not a BW apologist and I have never played a BW game until now. I am, however, objective and realize the amount of time and resources spent doing an MMO with over ~200 hours of gameplay per class complete with cut scenes and voice overs costs in both time and money. Criticizing is fine and warranted in many regards but I would shy away from calling it unpolished.

[Silvang]

I disagree that the PvP is unpolished. I agree that it is lacking. I agree with your points about PvP versus PvE servers. But if you look at it from a customer care standpoint (which BW absolutely does), they do not want the experience diminished regardless. The warning pop up is an example of their attention to this. They have made 3 unique WZ's and an OWPVP zone at launch. They are aware and support PvP. They do not meet our expectations at this point in time, but that doesn't mean they won't. BW has a long standing record of putting out industry leading games and content. MMO's never ship with everything we want. Not even WoW did that.

 

I'm not a BW apologist and I have never played a BW game until now. I am, however, objective and realize the amount of time and resources spent doing an MMO with over ~200 hours of gameplay per class complete with cut scenes and voice overs costs in both time and money. Criticizing is fine and warranted in many regards but I would shy away from calling it unpolished.

 

Well in the end we might not have been that much away in terms of opinions.

 

Nonetheless, concerning your points on objectivity though I would like you to revisit my earlier posts, where i did point out that:

 

-"Don't get me wrong, i so far enjoy the game greatly, but as an addicted PvPer i find the systems to be lacking to say the least"

-"I do have the utmost faith in Bioware to meet these expectations"

-"I am not here to blame anyone, one can only have so much time to polish everything"

 

All in all, if it's just a matter of "un-polished" vs "lacking" i guess we are on the same page.

 

And that's what this post is all about. Point out that "They do not meet our expectations at this point in time". Either way we cannot really do anything more than that

[Hidden]

I PvP for the PvP.

 

Anyone who needs a Barbie for it aren't PvP'ers in my eyes, sadly though I believe I am a minority.

 

There is only so much that can be done, it comes down to the players to want to find it create it. Alot whine about devs, but how many actually go out and try and create conflict instead of whining?

 

Set things up, organize events, and encourage group tours.

 

TH

Edited December 20, 2011 by Hidden