Analyzing PvP classes

[ChickenWangs]

I always see threads crying for nerfs to things. But no one actually analyzes the classes for their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it will give everyone some insight into what classes have to deal with.

 

Sentinel: Major burst, great defensive cooldowns, but only a cc, no stuns. Solution: Kite and stun when they use undying rage/guarded by the force

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501GobZZbIrRrRMfs.2

 

Vanguard: Great burst, mobility, 2 stuns, bad resource management, bad defensive cooldowns, Solution: Make sure they stay out of ten meters (knockbacks, roots, stuns, ect.)(One thing to note is that I do believe that the 2 second slow after ion pulse should only be applicable every six seconds.)

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801fhrbzGGMsZhMhZzz.2

 

Shadow: Spike damage from stealth, Burst on low health targets, invul for four seconds against force and tech, worst armor, few defensive cooldowns Solution: Although this does not apply to all classes, you can root an invul guy and run.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601cZuMrRkhMrtzZMc0M.2

 

Scoundrel: Burst out of stealth, stun locker, escape capability, short defensive cooldowns Solution: Stun as soon as they open up

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701hrZ0cZGhModdRdGR.2

 

Gunslinger: Huge potential burst in initiation and when an enemy is close to death, Highly reliant on cover Solution: Prevent hunker down, Line of sight

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700ZbcdZbsrbdRsRGR.2

 

Commando: Massive burst (when 5 stacks of grav round), bad defensive cooldowns, No mobility Solution: Get in their face and they are helpless

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800cZMc0MZMIk0RrdRkfz.2

 

Sage: Good constant damage, dot damage, Bubbles, No defensive cooldowns, light armor Solution: Interrupt and get in their face

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600cM0MZhZfsMzdorutz.2

 

Guardian: Stupid Aoe damage (Force sweep can do huge damage), Leaps and pushes, Good defensive cooldowns, very close ranged Solution: Kite

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500MzZhrRbdfRbfzZdMM.2

 

I hope this provided some help to people who PvP and calmed people's nerf happiness. If you get killed by a class, don't call it OP, figure out how to counter it. If a class could not be countered, it would not die.

Edited July 10, 2012 by ChickenWangs
Now including specs

[Luciferhawke]

what vanguards are you fighting?

[WickedImage]

Indeed, and his only solution for shadows is to stun and run lol.

 

Fantastic!

[KingpinDragon]

What Shadows are you fighting?

[Laforet]

I just LOVE how the "solution" to counter vanguards / marauders / shadows is "OMG STUN KITE AND RUN" and the "solution" to counter sorcs/mercs is "meh get i teh faceh kill dem".

 

Some classes are feared some classes are killed. Thats balance for Bioware.

 

/clap

[SinnedWill]

I just LOVE how the "solution" to counter vanguards / marauders / shadows is "OMG STUN KITE AND RUN" and the "solution" to counter sorcs/mercs is "meh get i teh faceh kill dem".

 

Some classes are feared some classes are killed. Thats balance for Bioware.

 

/clap

 

Pretty sure he means to stun (timely) and strafe-cast kite dps them (if you can). Which is actually correct for maras/sents/juggs/guardians. Unfortunately, that tactic doesn't work too well on PT's/VG's (namely, pyro/assault specs) due to the fact that their DoT's will almost always be on you (thus, so will the slow effect). In all honesty, when facing a PT/VG (pyro/assault), you have to DPS race them and pray to god their defensive cooldowns aren't ready (or you won't stand a chance) - stunning a pyro/assault spec will typically just give them more resources to use on you (albeit, they have ample for 1v1's).

[Ahhmyface]

Shadows are burst out of stealth? Good to know!

 

I will remember this pvp pros advice next time I am pvping.

[Ultimo]

What burst are you talking about for a shadow? Please let me in on it.

[Rogoo]

"Solution: stunlock".

 

Made my day.

[SinnedWill]

What burst are you talking about for a shadow? Please let me in on it.

 

He's probably referring to deception/infiltration assassin/shadows - which, although their burst doesn't come from stealth, stealth does let them use spike - which will then let them also use their 4s stuns (2 of them) - so they can certainly have a nice stun-lock to accompany their burst - and if you don't think deception/infiltration assassins have burst, you've either never played against a good one or you aren't playing as one correctly. My assassin is currently deception - and it's quite nasty - very easy to break 5k damage with a 5-stacked discharge crit, 4k+ with maul crits, 3-6k shock (chain-shock) crits. But... yes, all of this requires pre-required attacks to build up in order to dish out the maximum pain efficiently and doesn't come immediately following stealth - getting the knockdown from stealth only helps us get to them via stun-locks.

[Laforet]

Pretty sure he means to stun (timely) and strafe-cast kite dps them (if you can). Which is actually correct for maras/sents/juggs/guardians. Unfortunately, that tactic doesn't work too well on PT's/VG's (namely, pyro/assault specs) due to the fact that their DoT's will almost always be on you (thus, so will the slow effect). In all honesty, when facing a PT/VG (pyro/assault), you have to DPS race them and pray to god their defensive cooldowns aren't ready (or you won't stand a chance) - stunning a pyro/assault spec will typically just give them more resources to use on you (albeit, they have ample for 1v1's).

 

Hyperboles aside, i agree with you the point that its very hard to kite an assault vanguard because of no internal CD on sweltering heat.

 

I can hardly kite a vanguard with my sorc and i dont remeber being kited by any class when i play my vanguard.

[ChickenWangs]

Hyperboles aside, i agree with you the point that its very hard to kite an assault vanguard because of no internal CD on sweltering heat.

 

I can hardly kite a vanguard with my sorc and i dont remeber being kited by any class when i play my vanguard.

 

If you knew the vanguard/Pyro tree you would know the slow is only for 2 seconds. Hence why I noted that the slow SHOULD only be applicable every 6 seconds so that a vanguard cannot constantly reapply it to a person. Shadows can burst, it's not impossible. They can do a damage spike upon decloaking if specced infiltration. The really hard hitters are the balanced specced ones which I am still trying to figure out how they do it.

 

 

Note that the entire thread is referring to Dps specs in general. I did not precisely not that the tactics tree for vanguards can murder anyone with all procs up in a matter of seconds, sabotage gunslingers can do mass aoe damage/dirty fighting mass aoe bleed damage. I was creating a general framework for defeating commonly used specs.

 

If you posted OMG YOU CANNOT KITE VANGUARDS I will reiterate again that there should be an internal cooldown of some sort on their 2 second slow. If you are a class without stuns (Sentinels) work on your burst and stop worrying about blowing your resources.

[Gidoru]

I always see threads crying for nerfs to things. But no one actually analyzes the classes for their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it will give everyone some insight into what classes have to deal with.

 

Sentinel: Major burst, great defensive cooldowns, but only a cc, no stuns. Solution: Stun lock.

1. Any Marauder/Sent worth a damn will use his CC break, sorry but 'stun lock' isnt a counter

2. Stunlock implies you have more than one stun, most classes dont.

Vanguard: Great burst, mobility, 2 stuns, bad resource management, bad defensive cooldowns, Solution: Stun lock/Kite (One thing to note is that I do believe that the 2 second slow after ion pulse should only be applicable every six seconds.)

LOL?

1. Same as above

2. Kite a class with 2 stuns, chain slow and a grapple and multiple 4k critting 30m ranged abilities? Really?

Gunslinger: Huge potential burst in initiation and when an enemy is close to death, Highly reliant on cover Solution: Prevent hunker down, Line of sight

Really? Prevent Bunker down? How?

Unless this is the worst Gunslinger in the world, im pretty sure he will be able to use it.

 

I hope this provided some help to people who PvP and calmed people's nerf happiness. If you get killed by a class, don't call it OP, figure out how to counter it. If a class could not be countered, it would not die.

Most of your 'solutions' dont work, so no.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Gidoru

[Ashbrewster]

Woah!

[Lithy]

Shadow: Burst out of stealth, invul for four seconds, worst armor, few defensive cooldowns Solution: Although this does not apply to all classes, you can root an invul guy and run.

 

Shroud DOES NOT make them invulnerable... it makes them resist all force or tech damage. Weapon(white) damage works just the same as if it were off.

[Astarica]

I think people think Assassins have burst because of the class name. The class is probably about as far away from burst DPS as it gets. That's not say the class is weak, but burst DPS just isn't what the class does unless you're talking about Assassinate.

[Gidoru]

They can do a damage spike upon decloaking if specced infiltration. The really hard hitters are the balanced specced ones which I am still trying to figure out how they do it.

 

More evidence you dont what much about this game.

 

1. Infiltration Shadows have more burst than balance, and have higher hitting abilities than balance. A full WH infiltration Shadow can crit between 4-5k on their highest hitting attacks. They basically have 3 attacks that can crit between this range.

2. Balance Shadows dont hit 'hard' they simply have good sustained damage and do aoe giving them high damage on charts. A balance Shadows highest hitting attack is about 3-3.5k and on a 15 second cooldown.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Gidoru

[Gidoru]

He's probably referring to deception/infiltration assassin/shadows - which, although their burst doesn't come from stealth, stealth does let them use spike - which will then let them also use their 4s stuns (2 of them) - so they can certainly have a nice stun-lock to accompany their burst - and if you don't think deception/infiltration assassins have burst, you've either never played against a good one or you aren't playing as one correctly. My assassin is currently deception - and it's quite nasty - very easy to break 5k damage with a 5-stacked discharge crit, 4k+ with maul crits, 3-6k shock (chain-shock) crits. But... yes, all of this requires pre-required attacks to build up in order to dish out the maximum pain efficiently and doesn't come immediately following stealth - getting the knockdown from stealth only helps us get to them via stun-locks.

 

Funny how you claim to have an Assassin yet you dont know anything about the class and think that they have two 4 second stuns LOL.

 

Assassins have one 4 second stun.

 

Deception has one 4 second incapacitate, this is not a stun, it breaks on damage.

 

Assassin has one two second stun, Spike. Seeing as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, ill enlighten you.

 

Spike doesnt 'let' you use electrocute, your ONLY 4 second stun. You can use electrocute whenever you want and it is off cooldown.

Spike is an opener and should not even count as a 'stun lock'. It only lasts 2 seconds, meaning that you can only use 1 ability before its duration expires and you have to use electrocute. Even if you do this, your opponet has a second to react before the second stun applies. Since spike does very little damage and all of your high hitting attacks require set up, you accomplish virtually nothing by using spike to 'stun lock'. It is basically the same result as opening up from stealth with an electrocute.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Gidoru

[Talsyrius]

More evidence you dont what much about this game.

 

1. Infiltration Shadows have more burst than balance, and have higher hitting abilities than balance. A full WH infiltration Shadow can crit between 4-5k on their highest hitting attacks. They basically have 3 attacks that can crit between this range.

2. Balance Shadows dont hit 'hard' they simply have good sustained damage and do aoe giving them high damage on charts. A balance Shadows highest hitting attack is about 3-3.5k and on a 15 second cooldown.

er... regarding point 2... I am forced to ask, do you have any idea what you are talking about? hardest hitting skill is assassinate which is on a 6 sec cd, alternatively shock/project with recklessness. Base cd on recklessness is 1 min 30 sec I think, and shock has also a 6 sec cd, but that is moot because you want to wait for an energize proc to make it force efficient enough to use... 4.5 shock folowed by 2.75 from chain shock is not uncommon if you mod your gear right.

The real tip against darkness/balance is to get the **** out of there when they pop recklessness/have 3 harness darkness stacks.

[Lovia]

although its a good thing what you are trying to do it fails to analyse the pov on varius classes, (its different fighting a dps as a healer/another dps/tank) and ofc the fact that mutliple classes have different roles/specs to bring to pvp, like guardians for example.

[Astarica]

er... regarding point 2... I am forced to ask, do you have any idea what you are talking about? hardest hitting skill is assassinate which is on a 6 sec cd, alternatively shock/project with recklessness. Base cd on recklessness is 1 min 30 sec I think, and shock has also a 6 sec cd, but that is moot because you want to wait for an energize proc to make it force efficient enough to use... 4.5 shock folowed by 2.75 from chain shock is not uncommon if you mod your gear right.

The real tip against darkness/balance is to get the **** out of there when they pop recklessness/have 3 harness darkness stacks.

 

I've noticed that getting shocked for 3K followed by a 1K shock apparently is just totally not the same thing as getting hit for 4K in one hit to the vast majority of the playerbase. Same with getting Force Lightning to tick 2500 4 times is totally not the same as getting hit for 10K in 2 GCDs.

[Talsyrius]

I've noticed that getting shocked for 3K followed by a 1K shock apparently is just totally not the same thing as getting hit for 4K in one hit to the vast majority of the playerbase. Same with getting Force Lightning to tick 2500 4 times is totally not the same as getting hit for 10K in 2 GCDs.

 

Ok mr smarty pants, why would chain shock not count towards the same "hit", even though it occurs in the same GCD?

Also, chain shock proc his for exactly half, so 3 folowed by 1 is impossible D:

Edited July 10, 2012 by Talsyrius

[Astarica]

Ok mr smarty pants, why would chain shock not count towards the same "hit", even though it occurs in the same GCD?

Also, chain shock proc his for exactly half, so 3 folowed by 1 is impossible D:

 

The first shock uses up Energized so the second shock doesn't hit as hard because Energized is consumed..

 

I'm more about talking about the perception that Assassins don't do hard hits. They don't really do burst damage (Shock is on 6s CD, hard to call that burst DPS) but just because the hits are spread in so many hits, doesn't mean they don't hit you hard.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Vanguard: Great burst, mobility, 2 stuns, bad resource management, bad defensive cooldowns, Solution: Stun lock/Kite (One thing to note is that I do believe that the 2 second slow after ion pulse should only be applicable every six seconds.)

 

Proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. Stun lock? Just stun lock? Just hit that move called "stun lock" eh? Against a class who have two actual stuns, rather than most with 1 stun (non AOE) and one CC (broken on damage).

 

How about kite? Kite a class that has a slow attached to their core ability? That has 100% mobility and can pull you back?

 

What are you on. "Bad resource management / defensive cooldowns" oh dear.

Edited July 10, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[Talsyrius]

The first shock uses up Energized so the second shock doesn't hit as hard because Energized is consumed..

 

I'm more about talking about the perception that Assassins don't do hard hits. They don't really do burst damage (Shock is on 6s CD, hard to call that burst DPS) but just because the hits are spread in so many hits, doesn't mean they don't hit you hard.

Er... You gain 2 or 3 charges of energize per use, dependent on which set bonus you go with, so you can ernergize, shock, thrash, shock, thrash shock in 5 or 6 gcd, don't remember if energize use one, and get 7k, 2,5k, 7k, 2.5k and 7k theoretically if you proc chain shock on all shocks and energize on first hit on thrash. (45% chance to proc chain, 30% to proc energize). And the chain shock doesn't use one charge of energize, it is a static 50% added damage to the normal shock.

 

Edit: Oki now I see the problem, silly TORHead mixed up the order of the republic trees, so I mistook balance for Kinketik, my bad

Edited July 10, 2012 by Talsyrius