Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[Technohic]

"You are bad and your group is bad and you should feel bad!"

[Khoraji]

So again comes the argument:

"Just die your way through pvp untill you are wh geared untill then don't complain."

 

I never said that, I said stop pretending like being partial BM with no augments is "geared". It takes no time at all to get full BM.

 

Once you get full BM, that is good enough for normal WZ's, especially with augments.

[DCVAN]

Just read through that for the first time...

 

Yup, SWTOR is dead as a pvp game when someone who is that much of an idiot is making decisions.

 

Resource management- while a problem, and while it does suck that we have to deal considerable damage to ourselves to regen force- is probably one of the least of my worries.

 

Against any half decent players or team you will never survive long enough to go out of force- it's good though that he doesn't even have a clue what the main problems are.

 

Really, it's fantastic. Why pay attention to how the game plays? Oh right- metrics. Just run it through a couple spreadsheets and VOILA! PvP balance, isn't that right Ohlen? Because apparently we're playing these games on calculators not keyboards.

 

That article was about the changes that were made for 1.2, and I think Ohlen was right on the money. In 1.1 we had almost infinite force. Some force management changes were necessary in 1.2. Healing is in a pretty good place right now. Its good in pugs, but not so strong that each match comes down to who had the most healers queue (like some other games I know). Healing becomes even stronger in rated's when coupled with a tank and a coordinated team.

 

He also mentioned that seers may need some quality of life changes in pvp, but their throughput is good. Again, spot on. We have strong heals, but we can have some trouble getting them off sometimes.

 

Overall, I like where this game is headed. The balance is far better than some of the other mmo's out there.

Edited July 5, 2012 by DCVAN

[islander]

I never said that, I said stop pretending like being partial BM with no augments is "geared". It takes no time at all to get full BM.

 

Once you get full BM, that is good enough for normal WZ's, especially with augments.

 

I agree, ranked warzones were the best thing to happen to me as a solo queuer for warzones. It's seldom that my opposing team is so well geared and skilled that I have no chance even in full PUG. I still win about 40% of my matches.

 

Here's a question, because I actually do need to augment my BM stuff.

Augment with what? Willpower I would think.

Edited July 5, 2012 by islander

[Annex]

I think Ohlen was right on the money in that article. In 1.1 we had almost infinite force

 

I have almost infinite force now too.

 

Honestly dont get how people run out unless they spam reviv mindlessly.

 

I just cant see how he thinks THAT is the nerf people complain about when our main heal got a 1s increase in cast time.

 

Blindingly obvious what the actual nerf is. Double dipping was an obvious bug that needed to be fixed but was far from game breaking for us. Making our main heal 2.5s as base means its 90% useless in PvP as you cant use it reactively and its like a giant sign our your head saying interrupt me.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Annex

[Never_Hesitate]

I have almost infinite sorc now too.

 

Honestly dont get how people run out unless they spam reviv mindlessly.

 

I just cant see how he thinks THAT is the nerf people complain about when our main heal got a 1s increase in cast time.

 

Blindingly obvious what the actual nerf is. Double dipping was an obvious bug that needed to be fixed but was far from game breaking for us. Making our main heal 2.5s as base means its 90% useless in PvP as you cant use it reactively and its like a giant sign our your head saying interrupt me.

 

with no moblity at all

 

our heals are:

2.5s cast time

1.5s cast time

channeled

a hot which can be used while kiting

every 20s a shield that absorbs about 3k dmg

[BurnsTwoThree]

I agree, ranked warzones were the best thing to happen to me as a solo queuer for warzones. It's seldom that my opposing team is so well geared and skilled that I have no chance even in full PUG. I still win about 40% of my matches.

 

Here's a question, because I actually do need to augment my BM stuff.

Augment with what? Willpower I would think.

 

 

Unless you're loaded or can make your own augments I wouldn't worry about it. After something like 1250 expertise you can get the Matrix Cube for PvP.

 

Then Augment everything w/ Endurance + Willpower.

[Khoraji]

Here's a question, because I actually do need to augment my BM stuff.

 

Augment with what? Willpower I would think.

 

It depends on your class/spec/play-style/current stats but Mainstat is probably your best/safest option.

 

I dont know what your classes stats look like in full BM, it all depends but here are some basic rules to follow.

 

1 - Get your crit multiplier to 76% (75% from surge which is around 300 surge and +1% from companion affection buff)

 

2 - Get your crit rating to at least 35% without the IA buff

 

3 - From here just stack mainstat and power where you can. Accuracy/Alacrity only if there is no other option.

 

If your a tank/ball carrier or a 1v1 type, you might want to go with more endurance, aka Fortitude Augments.

[DCVAN]

Blindingly obvious what the actual nerf is. Double dipping was an obvious bug that needed to be fixed but was far from game breaking for us. Making our main heal 2.5s as base means its 90% useless in PvP as you cant use it reactively and its like a giant sign our your head saying interrupt me.

 

Thats where juking and fake casting come into play, which is what he could be referring to when he said that the learning curve for a pvp seer might be too high. Your average pugger is not going to have excellent positioning and fake casting skills. While I agree that the cast time on deliverance could be a bit lower, I still think Ohlen knows what's going on. There are very good seers that are shining in rateds because their team is coordinated and has good positioning. Its hard to buff a class to help the average player, without making the above average players too strong in rateds.

[Tathais]

There's a lot of reading fail going on in this thread. A lot of responses to my original post simply don't recognize or acknowledge the things I've said. I'm going to sum up and respond to some of the more common responses. I realize reading is tough for most of you, so in an effort to prevent you from getting distracted, find the response in the quote block that you care about most and read the response do that. Try not to get distracted by the other ones and allow it to prevent you from reading, and comprehending, the message here.

 

Healers are fine, look at my screenshot with amazing numberes!

In the screenshot mentioned I think that person had maybe 6-8 deaths... so it's pretty clear that this person spent most of the game left alone. You know what? When I'm left alone I pull great healing numbers too... go figure. The thing is, as mentioned in the thread you didn't read, my biggest heal, which is a 2.5s base cast, will crit for 3800 thanks to Trauma. Classes like Marauders and PTs are running around critting for 5k in a single GCD, the actual damage output is significantly higher. Left alone my healing still has trouble keeping up and people still die, against a single class. My healing numbers look great, but I'm still not effective. The bottom line is, your screenshot of a game where you put out high healing numbers while being left alone means nothing with regards to healing being fine.

 

Get a tank, healing is fine.

I spend a lot of time running with a tank and while it helps, it's still nowhere near a good experience. As mentioned previously, my healing just cannot keep up with DPS... they do more damage than I can possibly do healing, and that's from one class. Most folks team up, which is smart play but the numbers are so skewed that it means healing has no chance. Additionally, even with a guard, because of the interrupts and CC, I still can't cast. I may die more slowly with a good tank on me, but I'm still going to die because I can't do anything.

 

Furthermore, why in the hell is guard so powerful and why do I have to be so reliant on it? Here's a thought, lets go ahead and half the current PvP effectiveness of damage. If you have a guard, you then do double damage. Lets see how well that goes over. Basically, DPS gets to nooby face roll their way to victory while healing needs to be left alone, have a tank babysitting them, and have their DPS team mates constantly peeling. That seems balanced... oh wait, it doesn't.

 

Roll X DPS and try to kill a healer... you can't, healing is fine!

I did, I rolled a PT. It's amazing, I barely even have to think. I was crushing 40-range healers at level 17 before I even got an interrupt. I don't even have the talents for double railshot and armor ignore yet. This game is ezmode for DPS if you're a mouth breathing knuckle dragger. If you're even remotely competant, DPS is god mode. While certainly amusing and relieves some of the stress over being a healer to play my PT for a while, it's still broken game design.

 

You're not full BM yet? That's why! Get full BM and see, healers are fine.

Did you miss the part where I said my set is almost fully complete? I've got about 1100 expertise and still get 5k crits, crushing me inside a 4s stun. I think I need my chest, gloves, and one more implant... upgrading from recruit will get me another 50 expertise, maybe. If going from 950 expertise in recruit to 1100 expertise in mostly BM doesn't make a difference, going from 1100 expertise to 1150 sure as hell won't. It's not a gear issue, damage is too high. Most healers recognize this.

 

You need to run away, standing in the middle and tanking isn't possible any more.

You need to change your spec, pure healing isn't for PvP

Nowhere did I say I stood still and healed and expected to live through everything. I use almost every ability they give me and I kite and run away. I just don't have the tools to keep up with healing on the move and have to stop to cast. That's the nature of my class. Also, I tried the hybrid spec for about two weeks. It helps survivability against marauders and marauders only, and that's only when their gap closing cooldowns are up. All the ranged classes still mow me down. Additionally, because damage is so high, they can just catch me in their stun and destroy me. It takes minimal skill to do this and there is nothing I can do to prevent it.

 

Basically, I play my healer face right freaking off while DPS hits one button to stop me, then a couple more to dish out a few 5k crits and have put me so far behind that I can't possibly catch up.

 

You suck, healing is fine.

Looks like you just need to L2P.

L2P issue here, move along folks.

Honestly, I'll come right out and say that I'm not a pro player, but I am a competent one. I've been doing this healing thing in MMOs for quite some time, and I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow. I know how to read the situation, I know what buttons to press. I'm aware of all everything my class can do and I use it in the most effective ways that I can. Still, I'd accept that I'm an average player. Should I really have to be a top-level expert uber pro player to simply survive?

 

Also, I'd imagine you folks saying this stuff missed the part where I explained that I'm getting hit with 5k insta-cast crits but have absolutely nothing with which to counter that. The best I can do is a 3.8k heal from a 2.5s base cast standing still or a bubble (good for 3k these days, maybe? I can't find any reliable way of measuring) on a 15s cooldown (corrected from my OP). It's not enough.

 

So really, what would you have me do here? In what magical way do you somehow dump out more healing output, or stop yourself from dying inside a stun against a single DPS, or prevent yourself having the mystical floaty icon over your head so every DPS in the game targets you as soon as you come out of spawn? Please, enlighten me... except wait, you can't. You folks saying this are either DPS players with absolutely no idea, or healers basing your experiences on being unfocused and left alone, in which case you're still losing players to DPS focus.

 

Juke your casts!

This one got posted while I was writing my response and so laughable that I had to edit it in. Really... juke? Are you serious!? Did you miss the part where I'm dying in a 4s stun? So... there is so much damage output that I can't keep up spamming my heals left alone and you want me to intentionally interrupt myself!? Dude...

 

I know how juking works. The thing is, you need to survive the juke so that once they burn their interrupt, you can then proceed to heal away unmolested. In this game, you can't. Marginally competent DPS is going to wait for at least half a cast bar before interrupting. On a 2.5s cast you've just lost 1.25s of healing time. That's pretty much two GCDs of damage output, which seems to get you to about half health. So now you've forced them to blow their interrupt... great! Except even if they don't interrupt your next cast and you get a crid, you've just healed for 3.8k... nowhere near half your health.

 

But wait! They didn't let you cast that... they used their stun ability, or a knockback, and interrupted your next cast! Great, now you're dead. But Tathais, if you were uber pro you'd juke that too, duuuuuuh! Cool, so you juke that one too... now you're dead. GG.

 

Seriously... use your head man.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Tathais

[Never_Hesitate]

Thats where juking and fake casting come into play, which is what he could be referring to when he said that the learning curve for a pvp seer might be too high. Your average pugger is not going to have excellent positioning and fake casting skills. While I agree that the cast time on deliverance could be a bit lower, I still think Ohlen knows what's going on. There are very good seers that are shining in rateds because their team is coordinated and has good positioning. Its hard to buff a class to help the average player, without making the above average players too strong in rateds.

 

How can we fakecast if almost every class has a interrupt (a mara can interrupt you 5 to 6 times in a row, with the right specc)

 

So you need to be a progamer to be viable with this class?

While every other class can be played by an average player?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[BurnsTwoThree]

Thats where juking and fake casting come into play, which is what he could be referring to when he said that the learning curve for a pvp seer might be too high. Your average pugger is not going to have excellent positioning and fake casting skills. While I agree that the cast time on deliverance could be a bit lower, I still think Ohlen knows what's going on. There are very good seers that are shining in rateds because their team is coordinated and has good positioning. Its hard to buff a class to help the average player, without making the above average players too strong in rateds.

 

I'm not average and I'm looking for a buffs to Sorcerers, especially in the survivability area as well in the fact that we have to turret heal. Standing still doesn't work for high-rated PvP. TTK for Sorcerer healers is far too low as well.

[DCVAN]

Dont get me wrong, I do agree with you. I have a very hard time getting heals off in pugs (which is what I mostly play), and I feel almost worthless. I'm just saying that I've watched coordinated teams play, and the healers position themselves where they can't get pulled or leaped to. When it does happen, their teammates peel enemies off of them, so the sage can get their casts off. I'm just saying that I think Ohlen does see our struggles but he's just trying to balance it, without destroying the balance in rateds. But so far he hasn't done anything about it, so I could be wrong.

[Khoraji]

There's a lot of reading fail going on in this thread. A lot of responses to my original post simply don't recognize or acknowledge the things I've said. I'm going to sum up and respond to some of the more common responses. I realize reading is tough for most of you, so in an effort to prevent you from getting distracted, find the response in the quote block that you care about most and read the response do that. Try not to get distracted by the other ones and allow it to prevent you from reading, and comprehending, the message here.

 

 

Did you miss the part where I said my set is almost fully complete? I've got about 1100 expertise and still get 5k crits, crushing me inside a 4s stun. I think I need my chest, gloves, and one more implant... upgrading from recruit will get me another 50 expertise, maybe. If going from 950 expertise in recruit to 1100 expertise in mostly BM doesn't make a difference, going from 1100 expertise to 1150 sure as hell won't. It's not a gear issue, damage is too high. Most healers recognize this.

 

Not even being full BM means you have barely played your character at all. It only takes a few days to get full BM. Stop pretending you are anywhere close to "geared" when you are still using some recruit and not augmented. Play 50 pvp for more than a week and maybe you will start to get better.

 

Its not just the 50 extra expertise. More dmg/healing from mainstat/power/surge/crit and more HP from the endurance bonus.

 

also, stop exaggerating, you are not getting hit with 5k crits on a regular basis.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Khoraji

[kweassa]

Yea well, I've got almost all my BM pieces now for just shy of 1100 expertise. I'm still getting destroyed... it feels no different than when I was in full recruit, in which I had about 950 expertise, so I guess that's not terribly surprising. Still, I figured I'd take their word for it and get the gear and as expected, no difference.

 

I'm still constantly getting hit for 5k crits, sometimes two in a row. One crit for almost 1/3 of my life (yes, I only seem to get 16k hp in BM gear...). The highest crit I can do, thanks to Trauma, is about 3800 and that takes 2.5s of uninterrupted cast time. Why, exactly, healing get a 30% debuff but DPS is free and clear I'll never know. And that's from just a single DPS. Pre-shielded with my HoT up I still die in a single 4s stun from two DPS focusing me, which is pretty common since I'll almost always have a giant icon over my head for 99% of a WZ screaming, "Hey, this guy is a super squishy healer, kill him for free points!" On the move I've got one shield every 20 seconds, a 500 heal from cleanse, and a 1100 heal from my HoT application. This is post 1.3 with the supposed burst nerf. If someone is hitting for 1/3 of my life in a single, instant-cast ability, something is wrong.

 

Really BW, this needs to be looked at. Enough people are posting data and commenting on it that you've gotta start paying attention. That post by your employee saying it was a L2P issue was way off base. When you die that quickly there's nothing you can do... you're just fodder for the masses except when you get lucky and nobody pays attention to you, then you can delay the inevitable slightly.

 

Now, trolls, don't get ahead of yourselves... nobody is asking for invincible healers. What we're asking for is useful healers, and what we have right now is useless healers. I can go DPS and contribute way more than I ever could as a healer. Why? Because I can do more DPS output than I can do healing output, so the numbers not only cancel each other out, but greatly tip to the other side.

 

In the meantime, I'll be playing my Pyrotech alt which noobishly cuts through the masses like a hot knife through butter with minimal skill and effort. Balance in this game is insanely messed up.

 

TL;DR: Damage is too high, healing is too low. This game is a gib-fest and healing has no place in it.

 

 

... have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps its not about the gear or expertise, but rather, maybe, you're just not that good a player?

[Never_Hesitate]

also, stop exaggerating, you are not getting hit with 5k crits on a regular basis.

 

From some classes/speccs you are, at least as a light armored sorc.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[Tathais]

Not even being full BM means you have barely played your character at all. It only takes a few days to get full BM. Stop pretending you are anywhere close to "geared" when you are still using some recruit and not augmented. Play 50 pvp for more than a week and maybe you will start to get better.

 

Its not just the 50 extra expertise. More dmg/healing from mainstat/power/surge/crit and more HP from the endurance bonus.

 

also, stop exaggerating, you are not getting hit with 5k crits on a regular basis.

 

I'm a healer, I don't need more damage. More healing is great, but I'm not going to get more than my full PvE set. The highest crit (with 75% surge) I can pull off is 5500. Trauma is 30%. 5500 * (1.0 - 0.3) = 3850... in a 2.5s base cast. The relevant stats for PvP gear are expertise and endurance. A marginal amount added from the 3 pieces I'm missing isn't going to stop this. You know this, but you refuse to acknowledge this... you're basically stalling.

 

Let me sum up your post: "Dear healer, I have no rational response to your post, so I will instead focus on the fact that you're missing a few pieces which, if you had them, would provide a marginal, almost unnoticeable difference. In redirecting you this way, I can attempt to hide the fact that DPS is crazy OP so my position of dominance remains safe. Should you get those last few remaining pieces, then post back here after several more games that nothing has changed, I will then focus on the fact that you don't have WH gear in an attempt to deflect you further. Good day."

 

Finally, I do indeed get crit for 5k... almost constantly. You can tell me I don't, but I'm a literate and intelligent person who is able to read the numbers floating on my screen. Call me a liar all you want, I don't need to prove myself to you. I know what's happening and so do many others who are seeing the same thing.

 

... have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps its not about the gear or expertise, but rather, maybe, you're just not that good a player?

 

Find the appropriate response here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=4795129&postcount=85

 

It's amusing how you think that there is some level of skill that would allow me to outheal that much damage while stunned. Comical, even.

[TKofSweden]

It's amusing how you think that there is some level of skill that would allow me to outheal that much damage while stunned. Comical, even.

The point is to stay out of danger iot allow you to heal. If your constantly getting zerged you are doing something wrong. Bad positioning and decisions can't be compensated by higher healing numbers. what will that do to the part of the player base which know that a healer is not a front line fighter?

[Never_Hesitate]

The point is to stay out of danger iot allow you to heal. If your constantly getting zerged you are doing something wrong. Bad positioning and decisions can't be compensated by higher healing numbers. what will that do to the part of the player base which know that a healer is not a front line fighter?

 

The player of a server will know who is a healer after a few wzs.

As soon as you join a wz you are marked and focused.

In your opinion a healer should stay in the spawn area where nobody can attack him or what?

[Annex]

Its funny to see DPSers who think sages/sorcs dont get crit for 5k+ regularly and accuse them of lieing.

 

Im in full aug WH (albeit not yet min/maxed) and I still get 5k crits regularly, average well geared smash is 4k-4.5k, deadly sabre is 3.5-4k a top player (min/maxed) can easily smash me for 6k (and they do, often).

 

I on the other hand, can put down a 2.3s cast DI on which my best ever is around 6k.

 

Compare that to an insta cast 6k aoe. Hmm.

[JediDuckling]

Yea well, I've got almost all my BM pieces now for just shy of 1100 expertise. I'm still getting destroyed... it feels no different than when I was in full recruit, in which I had about 950 expertise, so I guess that's not terribly surprising. Still, I figured I'd take their word for it and get the gear and as expected, no difference.

 

I'm still constantly getting hit for 5k crits, sometimes two in a row. One crit for almost 1/3 of my life (yes, I only seem to get 16k hp in BM gear...). The highest crit I can do, thanks to Trauma, is about 3800 and that takes 2.5s of uninterrupted cast time. Why, exactly, healing get a 30% debuff but DPS is free and clear I'll never know. And that's from just a single DPS. Pre-shielded with my HoT up I still die in a single 4s stun from two DPS focusing me, which is pretty common since I'll almost always have a giant icon over my head for 99% of a WZ screaming, "Hey, this guy is a super squishy healer, kill him for free points!" On the move I've got one shield every 20 seconds, a 500 heal from cleanse, and a 1100 heal from my HoT application. This is post 1.3 with the supposed burst nerf. If someone is hitting for 1/3 of my life in a single, instant-cast ability, something is wrong.

 

Really BW, this needs to be looked at. Enough people are posting data and commenting on it that you've gotta start paying attention. That post by your employee saying it was a L2P issue was way off base. When you die that quickly there's nothing you can do... you're just fodder for the masses except when you get lucky and nobody pays attention to you, then you can delay the inevitable slightly.

 

Now, trolls, don't get ahead of yourselves... nobody is asking for invincible healers. What we're asking for is useful healers, and what we have right now is useless healers. I can go DPS and contribute way more than I ever could as a healer. Why? Because I can do more DPS output than I can do healing output, so the numbers not only cancel each other out, but greatly tip to the other side.

 

In the meantime, I'll be playing my Pyrotech alt which noobishly cuts through the masses like a hot knife through butter with minimal skill and effort. Balance in this game is insanely messed up.

 

TL;DR: Damage is too high, healing is too low. This game is a gib-fest and healing has no place in it.

 

imperial agents and smugglers healing is fine yes

sorce and consular healing is ok as thye get the sheild and mass aoe heals andl ight armor they are suppose to be fairly squishy but they are far from it lol.

and then you get commando and merc healing, erm yea the weakest class's in theg ame and the easiest class's to put down free kills anyone ?

 

merc and commando heals realy need to be buffed.

[Khoraji]

I'm a healer, I don't need more damage. More healing is great, but I'm not going to get more than my full PvE set. The highest crit (with 75% surge) I can pull off is 5500. Trauma is 30%. 5500 * (1.0 - 0.3) = 3850... in a 2.5s base cast. The relevant stats for PvP gear are expertise and endurance. A marginal amount added from the 3 pieces I'm missing isn't going to stop this. You know this, but you refuse to acknowledge this... you're basically stalling.

 

Let me sum up your post: "Dear healer, I have no rational response to your post, so I will instead focus on the fact that you're missing a few pieces which, if you had them, would provide a marginal, almost unnoticeable difference. In redirecting you this way, I can attempt to hide the fact that DPS is crazy OP so my position of dominance remains safe. Should you get those last few remaining pieces, then post back here after several more games that nothing has changed, I will then focus on the fact that you don't have WH gear in an attempt to deflect you further. Good day."

 

Finally, I do indeed get crit for 5k... almost constantly. You can tell me I don't, but I'm a literate and intelligent person who is able to read the numbers floating on my screen. Call me a liar all you want, I don't need to prove myself to you. I know what's happening and so do many others who are seeing the same thing.

.

 

First of all, i AM a healer, been one since launch. Which is why I know you dont know what you are doing.

 

Your just going to ignore every other stat except for expertise and endurance? Then you really are a noob.

 

I am talking about your gear so much because the fact that you still have recruit gear means you just hit 50 the other day. AKA stop complaining and L2P.

[Never_Hesitate]

imperial agents and smugglers healing is fine yes

sorce and consular healing is ok as thye get the sheild and mass aoe heals andl ight armor they are suppose to be fairly squishy but they are far from it lol.

and then you get commando and merc healing, erm yea the weakest class's in theg ame and the easiest class's to put down free kills anyone ?

 

merc and commando heals realy need to be buffed.

 

Next to the fact that I can barely read what you wrote, due to misplaced spaces.

 

Sorc isn't squishy enough for you yet?

And a full heal specced (only one who get the aoe heal) isn't viable in pvp.

The shield holds around 3k of dmg.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[JediDuckling]

Next to the fact that I can barely read what you wrote, due to misplaced spaces.

 

Sorc isn't squishy enough for you yet? considering how i can spec to gunnery commando and nuke them and i can barely scratch them yea they are not squishy at all.

And a full heal specced (only one who get the aoe heal) isn't viable in pvp. and yes it is

The shield holds around 3k of dmg.

 

here fixed

[Never_Hesitate]

here fixed

 

don't take the class you say of it needs a buff and call the other one op.

 

i can take a mara and say:

look at his healing numbers, they are to lower than the sorc heal numbers.

sorcs are op.