Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[Dmasterr]

2) This game should only be balanced around, and accessible to, all levels of play.

 

That is impossible. That idea is an Oxymoron.

 

"Everyone" wants the game to be balanced at their level of play, and yet nobody is at the same level of play with everybody else.

 

Regardless of what game in existence you are referring too, there are people who can play them well and people who can not play them that well.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Darth_Philar]

That is impossible.

 

"Everyone" wants the game to be balanced at their level of play, and yet nobody is at the same level of play with everybody else.

 

Regardless of what game in existence you are referring too, there are people who can play them well and people who can not play them that well.

 

And when only those who can play at the absolute top end of the skill curve are able to be competitive then the class' mechanics are broken.

 

Sorcerers do not need buffs, they need a redesign to fix the skill curve and bring it in line with the other classes.

[sanchito]

And when only those who can play at the absolute top end of the skill curve are able to be competitive then the class' mechanics are broken.

 

Sorcerers do not need buffs, they need a redesign to fix the skill curve and bring it in line with the other classes.

 

While it pains me to say it im with dmasterr here ;-)

 

the 21/20 build is actually pretty easy to play, while also being fun, but not as effective as the 31 point build.

 

I think it's a bad idea to make every single spec viable for casuals, because the only way to make it not op in the hands of a very skilled player is to dumb it down massively so his skill advantage doesn't translate, which takes away the fun of improving if you play a lot.

 

Whats wrong with having certain builds be more powerful while also requiring more skill to play? that IS balance imo

 

(also, unrelated sidenote, i really think we should get a ranged auto attack!)

Edited July 12, 2012 by sanchito

[Darth_Philar]

While it pains me to say it im with dmasterr here ;-)

 

the 21/20 build is actually pretty easy to play, while also being fun, but not as effective as the 31 point build.

 

I think it's a bad idea to make every single spec viable for casuals, because the only way to make it not op in the hands of a very skilled player is to dumb it down massively so his skill advantage doesn't translate, which takes away the fun of improving if you play a lot.

 

Whats wrong with having certain builds be more powerful while also requiring more skill to play? that IS balance imo

 

(also, unrelated sidenote, i really think we should get a ranged auto attack!)

 

No one said casuals should be the target skill level. My point is that when the skill curve is too steep (when compared to other classes) the class needs to be redesigned. Since it is true that exceptional Sorcs/Sages are competitve, and anyone with less skill can't, that suggests that the performance gap on the skill curve is too steep.

 

It's almost like the Hunter fiasco from WoW all over again, are we a turret or are we a kiting class? We don't have the tools to do either effectively at the moment.

 

Also, just like the Hunter from WoW, Sorcs/Sages are going to be excluded from teams as a result of the skill curve. Even good Hunters weren't given spots simply because everyone saw that Hunters required a lot more skill to succeed at high level play and rather than risk a spot on the team they simply came up with comps that excluded Hunters completely. No one searched for Hunters, so the only Hunters who got spots were the ones who ran their own teams or who made a name for themselves. This further decline in Hunter arena participation further solidified the view that Hunter's don't belong in Arena causing a downward spiral. At the end of the day, Hunters made up less than 2% of all top ranked players simply because the skill curve wasn't fixed.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Laforet]

While it pains me to say it im with dmasterr here ;-)

 

the 21/20 build is actually pretty easy to play, while also being fun, but not as effective as the 31 point build.

 

I think it's a bad idea to make every single spec viable for casuals, because the only way to make it not op in the hands of a very skilled player is to dumb it down massively so his skill advantage doesn't translate, which takes away the fun of improving if you play a lot.

 

Whats wrong with having certain builds be more powerful while also requiring more skill to play? that IS balance imo

 

(also, unrelated sidenote, i really think we should get a ranged auto attack!)

 

The 21/20 is harder to play than full heals and also harder to play than 15% run semi-hybrid sawbones and any commando healing build.

 

Why 21/20 is harder than 31 corruption? Because you are still a healer, albeit more annoying but you lost like %6 raw healing power, around 3-4% crit and AoE number crutch.

 

You also lose the OPTION of noble sacrifice, having to time your disturbances with your (weaker) healing.

 

If played right you become very hard to kill yes, but not due because you have more general "strength" but because you become more "pesky" this is all.

 

Your healing power also go down significantly but you are still expected to put up some counter burst numbers.

 

A "green" sage will pick up 31 seer AoE dump then die style way easily than 21/20.

 

Sorc heals = high skill cap, hybrid sorc heals = higher.

 

Also, when you play 21/20 you are expected to play without guard. Yes, without crutch. I play RWZs with 21/20 and key dps have guard precedence over me.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Laforet

[islander]

You mean heavy armor...

 

Mercs get heavy? I don't have a BH, so I could stand corrected. I was under the belief only PT's get heavy. That's how Sith Warrior's are set up. You choose Mara, you get medium. You choose Jugg, you upgrade to heavy whether you DPS or Tank

Edited July 12, 2012 by islander

[dalin]

The 21/20 is harder to play than full heals and also harder to play than 15% run semi-hybrid sawbones and any commando healing build.

 

Why 21/20 is harder than 31 corruption? Because you are still a healer, albeit more annoying but you lost like %6 raw healing power, around 3-4% crit and AoE number crutch.

 

You also lose the OPTION of noble sacrifice, having to time your disturbances with your (weaker) healing.

 

If played right you become very hard to kill yes, but not due because you have more general "strength" but because you become more "pesky" this is all.

 

Your healing power also go down significantly but you are still expected to put up some counter burst numbers.

 

A "green" sage will pick up 31 seer AoE dump then die style way easily than 21/20.

 

Sorc heals = high skill cap, hybrid sorc heals = higher.

 

Also, when you play 21/20 you are expected to play without guard. Yes, without crutch. I play RWZs with 21/20 and key dps have guard precedence over me.

 

This.

 

I play Hybrid as it's the only way to survive against the melee trains. Fun part is I still can top the healing chart, but man oh man do I have to outplay and work my butt off to do it. I would kill for a defensive CD or a instant heal that's worth a damn.

[islander]

It's kinda funny, I play 21 point heal, but I don't do the 20 lightning. I do 13 in madness, get the nonstop force lightning and death field dps dump every 15 seconds. I hate sitting and casting for a second and a half just to have someone run out of range, or me have to break it off midway to bubble or heal someone.

 

I find I can crank out far more damage (and in less time) in a warzone while healing this way - at the cost of some survivability.

Still, when it's me and someone else trying to burn down that last dps at the door, sometimes it makes the difference in setting that bomb or getting that turret.

 

maybe I'll re-try the 21/20 and see how it compares now.

Edited July 12, 2012 by islander

[Laforet]

It's kinda funny, I play 21 point heal, but I don't do the 20 lightning. I do 13 in madness, get the nonstop force lightning and death field dps dump every 15 seconds. I hate sitting and casting for a second and a half just to have someone run out of range, or me have to break it off midway to bubble or heal someone.

 

I find I can crank out far more damage (and in less time) in a warzone while healing this way - at the cost of some survivability.

Still, when it's me and someone else trying to burn down that last dps at the door, sometimes it makes the difference in setting that bomb or getting that turret.

 

maybe I'll re-try the 21/20 and see how it compares now.

 

 

Hybrid heal / madness (balance) is very fun. You become some kind of offensive healer and you are a TRUE hybrid because you can dish serious damage along with healing.

 

Healer / TK (Light) isnt a true "hybrid" build, its still a full healer with less healing power but more pesky.

[LancelotOC]

I agree that it all has to be balanced with optimal play in mind. It's just I think Sorc healers suffer that they dont have the required burst healing even if played great. Their big numbers come from AE heals which are not as valuable as focused heals. Crappy healing and low survivabilty at optimal play is the problem.

 

I play a 21/20 hyrbrid and every match I play well enough to both out-dps and out heal all other hybrids. Rarely does an other hybrid surpass me in heals or dps or die less than me. I kite so well that better players that have encountered me enough times ignore me and let me run out of power.

 

When we do open world 3 man and 4 man duels in Tatooine if I'm a groups healer better teams ignore me.

 

For all this success with the class I know full well that my healing output is not enough because if I'm not kiting people around and wasting their time then my hybrid is simply a weaker healer. This is why the main healer needs help because ultimatly for rated you need full healers just like you need full dps classess and hybrids are a weakness against better players.

 

Maybe in a 6 DPS , 2 healer team they could be viable as in that case you'd be pushing for max team DPS, otherwise you are better off with true healers.

 

We all agree the hybrid is more fun and the reasons it is more fun are apparent. Now make the main healer as fun so we can retire these hybrids and fill our role as healers in competitive play.

 

Also though I'm not a pve player, the pve sorc/sage healers have to play the full 31. This is another reason BW needs to make the class fun at 31 spec for pvp. They can't use the popularity and viability of the hybrid builds as an indicator that all is well.

Edited July 12, 2012 by LancelotOC

[paltrysum]

To be quite frank, an opponent who doesn't try to find the healer and kill him/her is a poor opponent. Healers prolong battles and enable teams to win despite their inability to stay "alive" without help.

 

I primarily pvp on a merc bodyguard and when I face an opponent who doesn't try to seek me out and kill me, I kind of lose respect for them. Against a clever opponent who knows they need to kill me, the onus falls on me to be more mobile and deceptive with positioning. In the chaos of battle, only the best players will notice that you're healing if you're being mobile and tricky with your positioning. Most of them will think you're part of the dps attack or get fixated on the guy smacking them up with a light saber or blaster. You can hide in plain sight or you can find a trusty pillar to hump but one way or another you have to learn how to heal without blatantly looking like you're healing.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Tokekin]

To be quite frank, an opponent who doesn't try to find the healer and kill him/her is a poor opponent. Healers prolong battles and enable teams to win despite their inability to stay "alive" without help.

 

I primarily pvp on a merc bodyguard and when I face an opponent who doesn't try to seek me out and kill me, I kind of lose respect for them. Against a clever opponent who knows they need to kill me, the onus falls on me to be more mobile and deceptive with positioning. In the chaos of battle, only the best players will notice that you're healing if you're being mobile and tricky with your positioning. Most of them will think you're part of the dps attack or get fixated on the guy smacking them up with a light saber or blaster. You can hide in plain sight or you can find a trusty pillar to hump but one way or another you have to learn how to heal without blatantly looking like you're healing.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

I agree except when you throw target markers in there, then that removes all ability for you to be "sneaky" and all you can do is hope to LoS to stay alive a few seconds longer. I've already posted in the target markers thread. One of the things I talked about was them removing the skill for good dps to be able to find the healer and the skill for a good healer to "disguise" him/herself. You can try to hide for a little while, but once someone catches you healing and puts a mark on your head it's game over.

[timidobserver]

Yea well, I've got almost all my BM pieces now for just shy of 1100 expertise. I'm still getting destroyed... it feels no different than when I was in full recruit, in which I had about 950 expertise, so I guess that's not terribly surprising. Still, I figured I'd take their word for it and get the gear and as expected, no difference.

 

I'm still constantly getting hit for 5k crits, sometimes two in a row. One crit for almost 1/3 of my life (yes, I only seem to get 16k hp in BM gear...). The highest crit I can do, thanks to Trauma, is about 3800 and that takes 2.5s of uninterrupted cast time. Why, exactly, healing get a 30% debuff but DPS is free and clear I'll never know. And that's from just a single DPS. Pre-shielded with my HoT up I still die in a single 4s stun from two DPS focusing me, which is pretty common since I'll almost always have a giant icon over my head for 99% of a WZ screaming, "Hey, this guy is a super squishy healer, kill him for free points!" On the move I've got one shield every 20 seconds, a 500 heal from cleanse, and a 1100 heal from my HoT application. This is post 1.3 with the supposed burst nerf. If someone is hitting for 1/3 of my life in a single, instant-cast ability, something is wrong.

 

Really BW, this needs to be looked at. Enough people are posting data and commenting on it that you've gotta start paying attention. That post by your employee saying it was a L2P issue was way off base. When you die that quickly there's nothing you can do... you're just fodder for the masses except when you get lucky and nobody pays attention to you, then you can delay the inevitable slightly.

 

Now, trolls, don't get ahead of yourselves... nobody is asking for invincible healers. What we're asking for is useful healers, and what we have right now is useless healers. I can go DPS and contribute way more than I ever could as a healer. Why? Because I can do more DPS output than I can do healing output, so the numbers not only cancel each other out, but greatly tip to the other side.

 

In the meantime, I'll be playing my Pyrotech alt which noobishly cuts through the masses like a hot knife through butter with minimal skill and effort. Balance in this game is insanely messed up.

 

TL;DR: Damage is too high, healing is too low. This game is a gib-fest and healing has no place in it.

 

Healing isss fine. A decent healer can carry a team of sucky players to victory. You simply must be failing at healing.

[Vulppes]

If you get some WarHero gear you will be fine... and if you're not then you should try dps...

[islander]

If you get some WarHero gear you will be fine... and if you're not then you should try dps...

 

This doesn't change the fact every other healer is more survivable. Again, personally, I don't think sages/sorcs need much. Just one more defensive mechanism. Something along the lines of obfuscate, maybe not quite as potent.

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[islander]

Hybrid heal / madness (balance) is very fun. You become some kind of offensive healer and you are a TRUE hybrid because you can dish serious damage along with healing.

 

Healer / TK (Light) isnt a true "hybrid" build, its still a full healer with less healing power but more pesky.

 

Oh, its mad fun. I usually get (again, standard full warzone) around 125-150k damage, and 275-325k healing.

I can't really crank out consistent damage, but over the course of about 3 seconds every 15 I can. Which is perfect because I spend the other 11-12 seconds healing and bubbling. Plus, force lightning is an effectively zero FC skill and if I break it off midcast, I still do damage.

Edited July 13, 2012 by islander

[Khoraji]

I will grant you that this is how SWTOR works, and actually how most games work. I'm not a fan that there is no counter to coordinated focus DPS. I feel like, in order to maintain a skill based contest, you should be able to counter this. I think the problem is that SWTOR is the worst of the bunch. Damage in this game is the highest out of any PvP MMO I've played, including vanilla WoW where trinketed POM/Pyro was king. Sure you'd get one-shot in those days, but at least it was only once every three minutes

 

Anyway, it's fair to say there's a distinct difference between how it works and how I think it should work. I can accept this... I can't accept it coming from one player though (cont'd below).

 

There really is no way to counter coordinated focus DPS except with coordinated, focused healing which is very difficult to do. Focus fire is the only way to kill someone in coordinated pvp so having a "counter" to that would mean no one would ever die, and thats no fun either.

 

 

I think this is our main source of contention... that you think I'm lying/over-exaggerating the problem but I'm really not. I'm rational enough to admit if I'm wrong, and have no need to get my back up over and internet argument and would be happy to have this situation not happen because there was some easy fix. There isn't... we've got 40+ pages of thread discussing it and I'm still a little dismayed that we're hung up on the same point.

 

It feels like we're failing to meet eye to eye on two points here:

 

1) Incoming damage on Sorc/Sage is very high... to the point where 1v1 a Sage isn't able to successfully heal themselves.

 

For this I've given you a screenshot of the kinds of damage we take. It was 2/3's of my life delivered in two seconds. It happened, and there's nothing I can do in order to counter it. It's too much too quickly, and the tools I have at my disposal don't allow me to counter it, or recover from it. So yes, I am dying to a single marauder that quickly... I'm dying even more quickly to focused fire. I don't know how else to convey this point other than to ask you to play a BM Sorc in PuG WZ to get a feel for what I'm experiencing. The implications of that last statement tie into the next point...

 

This is def our main disagreement (that and the fact that you thought being BM was "geared"), DMG is NOT that high on a regular basis. Can a Mara hit you for 10k in 2 seconds (its really 3 seconds because GCD is 1.5s)? Yes, with 2 very high crits in a row on certain specs. Healers can also heal for 10k in 2 seconds if we get high enough crits too so whats your point here?

 

That type of DMG does not happen very often. Ever since this thread started I have been monitoring the "Highest Hit" stat in the scoreboard and I can tell you, 9/10 times no DPS had over a 5k crit, ranked and normals included.

 

And no, I dont play a sorc, but I do play WITH them while talking in ventrilo and they can heal themselves through 1 DPS for a good amount of time. They do die more quickly than Merc/Ops, but they also have a higher potential healing numbers. Sort of like the "Glass Cannons" of the healing world.

 

2) This game should only be balanced around, and accessible to, all levels of play.

 

So if Sorc's are fine in your high-level ranked matches, they certainly are not in PuG WZ playing without a coordinated team. Balance is possible here...

 

It should be accessible to all levels of play, I agree. But it shouldn't be BALANCED around all levels of play. That is impossible.

 

If your in a pug, your most likely playing against a pug that is NOT focus DPS'ing very well. So you should be fine. The exception is 4-man DPS pre-mades that run around ganking people in normals.

 

Keep in mind that we do pay the same $15 a month as you do, and we are entitled to a fair, balanced, and fun experience. You are also entitled to this. If it's not provided, a lot of folks will pack up and move on for greener pastures, which may well be fine as far as your concerned, and this is probably true, but only for the short term. This game is built upon the existence of a community and if that community enjoying themselves, portions of it will move on. Ultimately, it will fall apart.

 

 

From all perspectives, this game has thus far seen exactly that. Upon release servers were full and PvP queues were popping frequently. Over time server populations have thinned and PvP queues stopped occurring because people weren't enjoying it (for any number of reasons). Server transfers have alleviated the impact of fewer players, but the evidence of the trend is there. People are leaving SWTOR. BW should probably start paying attention to why people are unhappy... and for a lot of people in this thread including myself, it's because they are getting killed very quickly in PvP through no direct fault of their own, and they aren't enjoying it.

 

Your right alot of people DID leave PvP, but it was because it was too casual friendly. Alot of the best pvpers I played with at launch are gone, all of the "hardcore" guilds either died or had to merge to survive. No one wants EZ-mode pvp where anyone with half a brain can do well. PvP is about competition, beating your opponents, and getting better.

 

I dont want to be an ***, but if your getting rocked in PvP, it IS your fault. Not BW's. Some classes are better than others right now, yes, but thats how most MMO's are. It is very difficult to balance 8 AC's with 3 specs each to make them all even. Sorcs used to be the most powerful DPS and Healer class in the game, now they are one of the worst for PvP(not saying they aren't viable tho), thats just how things work sometimes.

[dalin]

"Healers can also heal for 10k in 2 seconds if we get high enough crits too so whats your point here?"

 

 

Could you name this mythical heal for me? I'm trying to figure out what heal in this game is instant and does 10k on a crit. Cause you know, you argued GCD when it came to the INSTANT (no casts for melee) damage. So what INSTANT heal do you know of, that doesn't use the GCD? Last I checked my 2.5 sec heal, will crit for 5500 or so. I've seen 5800 a couple of times, but again, that's a 2.5 sec cast with a prayer and hope buff attached for a crit.

 

Right now this game gives every advantage to DPS over healers, (minus Operatives and Scoundrels) so that DPS players aren't forced to use communication to kill people.

Edited July 13, 2012 by dalin

[Khoraji]

 

Right now this game gives every advantage to DPS over healers, (minus Operatives and Scoundrels) so that DPS players aren't forced to use communication to kill people.

 

Minus mercs/troopers as well.

 

DPS do not have every advantage. Expertise is one of the largest factors in PvP and it only really effects healers...

 

 

Also, I dont know your class abilities, learn how to heal through 1 dps on your own, I see plenty of other sorc/sages doing it.

[LancelotOC]

"Healers can also heal for 10k in 2 seconds if we get high enough crits too so whats your point here?"

 

 

Could you name this mythical heal for me? I'm trying to figure out what heal in this game is instant and does 10k on a crit. Cause you know, you argued GCD when it came to the INSTANT (no casts for melee) damage. So what INSTANT heal do you know of, that doesn't use the GCD? Last I checked my 2.5 sec heal, will crit for 5500 or so. I've seen 5800 a couple of times, but again, that's a 2.5 sec cast with a prayer and hope buff attached for a crit.

 

Right now this game gives every advantage to DPS over healers, (minus Operatives and Scoundrels) so that DPS players aren't forced to use communication to kill people.

 

I think he's talking about OPS healers because at under 30% health every time they use their insta heal a new one pops. As such they can pop out 2 heals in 2 seconds totalling over 10k if both crit?

[Khoraji]

I think he's talking about OPS healers because at under 30% health every time they use their insta heal a new one pops. As such they can pop out 2 heals in 2 seconds totalling over 10k if both crit?

 

Or as a merc. Rapid scan crit + Power surge + Rapid scan crit. Or Rapid Scan crit + Emergency scan crit

[dalin]

Minus mercs/troopers as well.

 

DPS do not have every advantage. Expertise is one of the largest factors in PvP and it only really effects healers...

 

 

Also, I dont know your class abilities, learn how to heal through 1 dps on your own, I see plenty of other sorc/sages doing it.

 

It's called running away and if you honestly can't figure out how expertise favors DPS, I wont bother to enlighten you.

 

Do healers a favor, since you don't know our class abilties. Try rolling one and see how much fun you have. Or just continue to pew pew and think you are awesome. Either way, no skin off my back.

 

Also, yes Merc/Trooper, as well as DPS Sorcs are pretty crappy. Of course that isn't as big a deal since there's plenty of other DPS specs out there to play. Healers are limited in their selection. It's pretty much go Op/Smug or be bait for the melee train. Lots of fun.

[dalin]

Or as a merc. Rapid scan crit + Power surge + Rapid scan crit. Or Rapid Scan crit + Emergency scan crit

 

Last I checked, Rapid Scan and even ops instant heal obey the GCD. Can a healer heal for 10K in a short amount of time? Sure, in about 7 seconds or so. Of course that includes critting on it all.

[Khoraji]

It's called running away and if you honestly can't figure out how expertise favors DPS, I wont bother to enlighten you.

 

Do healers a favor, since you don't know our class abilties. Try rolling one and see how much fun you have. Or just continue to pew pew and think you are awesome. Either way, no skin off my back.

 

Also, yes Merc/Trooper, as well as DPS Sorcs are pretty crappy. Of course that isn't as big a deal since there's plenty of other DPS specs out there to play. Healers are limited in their selection. It's pretty much go Op/Smug or be bait for the melee train. Lots of fun.

 

I have been a Merc healer since launch... We are perfectly fine. I can tank any single DPS for at least...well..forever actually.

 

If you cant see how Expertise favors healers, I will explain it to you..

DMG Bonus is completely cancelled out by DMG mitigation

Bonus healing is a pure bonus.

[Khoraji]

Last I checked, Rapid Scan and even ops instant heal obey the GCD. Can a healer heal for 10K in a short amount of time? Sure, in about 7 seconds or so. Of course that includes critting on it all.

....? Do you know how GCD works

 

Rapid scan = 2 sec cast (GCD is already done by the time your done casting), Power surge + Rapid scan = Instant

 

2 seconds, 10k healing. Happy?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Khoraji