Vigilance pvp needs a buff

[Qa-Weef]

Longtime Vigilance Guardian here, just wanting to relay some of my experience and general disillusion with the spec.

 

From a pvp standpoint , in 1 on 1 scenario's (which there are ALOT) Vig guardians get mauled by nearly all other melee classes. Shadow's can just tank whatever we throw at them, same with sentinel/marauders, pyro/vanguard can be a close fight but the deciding factor usually is the the other players ability to kite and use the environment.

 

The most useful roll I find myself playing in most wz's is to harass whatever healers and ranged the opposing team may have, use every stun and trick in my arsenal to stop them getting any cast's off. I have reasonable/good mobility and a few interrupts but that's it.

 

It really does feel as though Vig Guardians are the lowest part of the melee food chain which is a real shame as single lightsaber wielding Jedi's are classic Star Wars.

[Sinatore]

This made me giggle. Vig guardians are the best hidden gems in the game. Definitely a player issue and not the class/spec. Keep practicing and in time, hopefully you'll see what i mean. Edited July 1, 2012 by Sinatore

[Kickinalfa]

I honestly im interested in how you guys pvp.

Right now my gaurdian is useless (lvl 30) compared to any other class i played, even my lvl 11 sage is more usefull as i does more damage with 2 spells and can heal also.

 

I specced into zealous leap, else everyone keeps kiting me and the rest of the points thrown around.

Basicly i jump/charge in and after 5 seconds im dead. I try to pick on person of but my dmg is so ridicilously low, i dont get them down even to 50%, while i just die in 5 globals.

[Belly]

I honestly im interested in how you guys pvp.

Right now my gaurdian is useless (lvl 30) compared to any other class i played, even my lvl 11 sage is more usefull as i does more damage with 2 spells and can heal also.

 

I specced into zealous leap, else everyone keeps kiting me and the rest of the points thrown around.

Basicly i jump/charge in and after 5 seconds im dead. I try to pick on person of but my dmg is so ridicilously low, i dont get them down even to 50%, while i just die in 5 globals.

 

Until you get into the 40s you'll be underpowered. Your best bet is to focus on your taunts and try to pick off weakened targets

[Helig]

My main complaint is that it's too damn random. Get a lot of crits - deal lots of near-unstoppable front-loaded damage. No crits - boring mediocre hit streak.

 

Feels like the oldschool WoW Ret Paladin who could two-shoot people with Seal of Casino when the stars aligned, but was little more than a nuisance for a geared opponent for the majority of the time. Of course, Vigilance is definitely more than a nuisance when it gets unlucky, but is still rather unimpressive when the gods of RNG aren't smiling on it.

[Qa-Weef]

This made me giggle. Vig guardians are the best hidden gems in the game. Definitely a player issue and not the class/spec. Keep practicing and in time, hopefully you'll see what i mean.

 

Nice counter there bro.

 

Vigilance Guardians are the weakest of the melee specs. This isn't opinion, its fact, in a 1v1 they will always lose to a Shadow and Sentinel, whilst having a close fight with vanguards and scoundrels.

Their (limited) utility and mobility does not make up for their lack of survivability and damage when battling other melee classes.

[BigRedRocket]

Nice counter there bro.

 

Vigilance Guardians are the weakest of the melee specs. This isn't opinion, its fact, in a 1v1 they will always lose to a Shadow and Sentinel, whilst having a close fight with vanguards and scoundrels.

Their (limited) utility and mobility does not make up for their lack of survivability and damage when battling other melee classes.

 

Your facts are wack jack, I don't always lose against a sent. Main thing is how to counter them. Shadows are a diff story, I only target them when others got their health below 40% or so. But sents equally geared no probs at all.

[Helig]

Your facts are wack jack, I don't always lose against a sent. Main thing is how to counter them. Shadows are a diff story, I only target them when others got their health below 40% or so. But sents equally geared no probs at all.

 

I play both, Guardian and Marauder, and, speaking strictly 1 vs 1, there's no way a Vigi Guardian will beat a geared and skilled Marauder who is willing to spend his cooldowns on him. Awful ones that are dime a dozen in random WZs, sure. But geared and competent ones are a nightmare. One of your strongest weapons is Master Strike resets. He counters you Master Strikes with Camo, Choke and fear, and you're pretty much left with OH, PB and BS - nowhere near the amounts of pain that he unleashes on you.

 

You can force initiative with Push-charge reset, but ultimately, unless you eat half of his HP bar during this sequence, he's still ahead of you. You use Blade Ward to cripple his Bleed application\direct avoidance if he's Carnage, then Focused Defense (Combat Focus, if needed) when BW ends, but you still don't match him cooldown for cooldown. In Annihilation, his passive self-healing is greater than yours with FD active (without Berserk), his mitigation is equal to yours (greater vs Ele\Int - Plasma Brand), with greater uptime with Cloak of Pain. Carnage is a can-opener. With Gore off GCD, it can do scary and amazing things.

 

That said, the game doesn't need to have perfect 1 vs 1 balance. But overall, Guardian looks like a support\utility\objective class that's not really supposed to go toe to toe with more self-reliant classes. It can kill any class, provided the player knows what he's doing, but it would not be my class of choice for 1 vs 1 in any spec.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Helig

[Sinatore]

Nice counter there bro.

 

Vigilance Guardians are the weakest of the melee specs. This isn't opinion, its fact, in a 1v1 they will always lose to a Shadow and Sentinel, whilst having a close fight with vanguards and scoundrels.

Their (limited) utility and mobility does not make up for their lack of survivability and damage when battling other melee classes.

 

Limited mobility? 2 force leaps with force push +guardian leap? Its fact that they're the weakest? Rofl, please show me this "fact"... It appears like you're basing a guardian's effectiveness off of your OWN experiences. How can you make a claim that its the weakest class in melee? That is all purely subjective. Any good player is capable of making their class effective, some classes have skills to use more to their advantage, and guardians are no exception.

 

Marauders are personally my toughest fight, however they can be beaten (yes even the good ones) I think you need to stop basing a classes effectiveness off your own experience. I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but you just might not be as good as you THINK you are.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Sinatore

[Helig]

Limited mobility? 2 force leaps with force push +guardian leap? Its fact that they're the weakest? Rofl, please show me this "fact"... It appears like you're basing a guardian's effectiveness off of your OWN experiences. How can you make a claim that its the weakest class in melee? That is all purely subjective. Any good player is capable of making their class effective, some classes have skills to use more to their advantage, and guardians are no exception.

 

Marauders are personally my toughest fight, however they can be beaten (yes even the good ones) I think you need to stop basing a classes effectiveness off your own experience. I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but you just might not be as good as you THINK you are.

 

"Using skills to their advantage" is a pretty broad statement, don't you find? One vs one, blank room with four walls and no LoS, head to head, skill to skill, cooldown to cooldown, you can't beat a solid Marauder as a Vigilance Guardian. I've got an augmented WH monster of a Vigilance Guardian, and I've got an augmented (blue augs on him for now:P ) BM-geared Marauder. Should they, theoretically, fight, both controlled by me and my identical clone, I'd bet on the Marauder.

 

That said, I absolutely enjoy playing My Guardian, and it's definitely an effective class. It's just not the top 1 vs 1 choice.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Helig

[TwistedTony]

Lol why ppl feel jugs and guards are the inferior class is beyond me. I got a 50 Mara and jug and here's the difference. Mara's have slightly better Dps and jugs have better survivability. I kill ppl faster with my Mara but also die a lot faster too (squisher)

[TwistedTony]

Lol why ppl feel jugs and guards are the inferior class is beyond me. I got a 50 Mara and jug and here's the difference. Mara's have slightly better Dps and jugs have better survivability. I kill ppl faster with my Mara but also die a lot faster too (squisher)

[Xtrema]

Longtime Vigilance Guardian here, just wanting to relay some of my experience and general disillusion with the spec.

 

From a pvp standpoint , in 1 on 1 scenario's (which there are ALOT) Vig guardians get mauled by nearly all other melee classes. Shadow's can just tank whatever we throw at them, same with sentinel/marauders, pyro/vanguard can be a close fight but the deciding factor usually is the the other players ability to kite and use the environment.

 

The most useful roll I find myself playing in most wz's is to harass whatever healers and ranged the opposing team may have, use every stun and trick in my arsenal to stop them getting any cast's off. I have reasonable/good mobility and a few interrupts but that's it.

 

It really does feel as though Vig Guardians are the lowest part of the melee food chain which is a real shame as single lightsaber wielding Jedi's are classic Star Wars.

 

I'm sorry dude but I think you need to learn your class better, been playing jugg since early access I dont even have any alts (at least that are 50), I'm in full WH except relic, saber, belt and wrists. Do I get "mauled" by all other classes? Definitely not, are shadow/sin tanks a tougher fight? Yes, but they are far from unbeatable - before the transfers I fought a very good sin in FULL WH many times, I didn't have as many WH pieces as I do now but I still got him <15% before dieing. If you consider that being mauled, then sure. And that's just the GOOD sins, the bad or equal ones I can win most of the time.

 

Marauders on the other hand are the biggest difference, they can be the easiest fights or the hardest. In equal skill and gearing, they win by class hands down, there's no fussing about this. But are ALL marauders equally geared and skilled? Probably not, I can take most marauders/sents I see, there are actually plenty of bad ones. Just gotta learn how to fight them (CC during god mode, push when blinded etc as a few ones I personally do)

 

So I dont know what it is, maybe your gear? Are you augmented? Any optimization? Rotation? Skill tree? Could be a lot of things, but there are definitely plenty of vig guardians (or veng juggs) out there that are doing just fine.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Xtrema

[RyderQuanTy]

i have been playing viligance since launch and it is awsom. I never top the overall damage but that is due to lack of aoe not a weel class. 1v1 I can beat anyone I'm not full warhero and don't have biochem which has cost me some fight but 1v1 comes down to cooldowns . sent no problem if u have all your tools any assian spec is same thing. the most feared by a vigilance is sniper but still beatable if played properly.

 

AND if my memory is correct and someone please remind me but single saber mastery was once +6% damage now in shien it only saber atacks which would be a nerf. If anyone rembers let me know.

[Qa-Weef]

"Limited mobility? 2 force leaps with force push +guardian leap? Its fact that they're the weakest? Rofl, please show me this "fact"... It appears like you're basing a guardian's effectiveness off of your OWN experiences. How can you make a claim that its the weakest class in melee? That is all purely subjective. Any good player is capable of making their class effective, some classes have skills to use more to their advantage, and guardians are no exception.

 

Marauders are personally my toughest fight, however they can be beaten (yes even the good ones) I think you need to stop basing a classes effectiveness off your own experience. I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but you just might not be as good as you THINK you are..

 

So far there the general consensus of this thread has been that Guardians are weak 1v1, I'm glad you acknowledged this.

 

Force leap, push to swing momentum then force leap again just doesn't cut against it other strong melee classes. Coupled with Stasis it may be enough (usually isn't though) to punch a hole in a defensive cd of a Mar/Sent , they will still out dps you and in turn kill you.

 

I don't even believe Marauders/Sentinels are tricky to fight, its more so Shadow/Assassin tanks that cause real frustration, their huge health pools and the ability to really stifle any sort of offence with their passive defences are the concern. It can be quite difficult to lay a sunder on them which hamstrings my ability to apply Plasma Brand.

 

The tone of you post imply's that you're on BW's payroll and if so I feel as though these are valid points that need to be addressed and could be easily resolved. Example: Longer defensive cd periods for Sent/Marauders and the removal of sunder requirement for Plasma Brand. You'll note that these are not game breaking changes, just simple quality of life tweaks I'm proposing.

 

Jedi Guardians should be one of the strongest 1v1 classes due to their iconic nature within Star Wars, instead they are the bottom of pecking order. Why is it so?

 

If you're not an employee then quit trying to troll me bro.

 

edit: initially quoted the wrong dude, sorry holmes

Edited July 2, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[Boozed]

Vigilance Guardians are amazing in PvP, there's no debate.

 

/thread

[Helig]

removal of sunder requirement for Plasma Brand. You'll note that these are not game breaking changes, just simple quality of life tweaks I'm proposing.

 

Not the kind of changes that I'd make. Plasma Brand is your sustained damage skill. It has a good, relatively long DoT. And it's expensive as hell. In my rotations, it's secondary to Blade Storm, due to the fact that it hits significantly harder, frontloaded, and the PB DoT is longer than the coooldown of the skill.

 

I'd rather boost Guardian head-on survivability. Marauder Cloak of Pain essentially boosts their Kinetic\Energy mitigation to tank levels, and their Internal\Elemental mitigation even beyond that. It has an impressive uptime of 50%. It has no drawbacks. Focused Defense was introduced seemingly to compete with this ability - along with Commanding Awe changes. But it's rather Focus-hungry (usually, not much of an issue in Shien, but why the hell does it eat so much Focus in the fist place?), it has a significantly lower uptime, and, talented, it feels like a watered-down Marauder baseline skill+talented Annihilation selfhealing utility, all of which costs 0 Focus\Rage.

 

I propose that Focused Defense gets a boost to duration to match the uptime of CloP (20-25 sec duration\45 sec cooldown), and its either initial, or overtime Focus cost is removed via talents. This should provide the face to face longevity that heavy armour is supposed to provide, but doesn't, because its mitigation bonus is only 5-ish% more than Medium.

 

I can see Undying Rage\Guarded by the Force being a baseline Knight skill - not a Sent\Marauder skill. I understand that it would be a significant change for balancing multiple areas of the game, and, failing that, I believe that Push should have a 30-45 sec cooldown baseline. I also feel that Guard\Jugg Blade Ward needs a proper baseline AC-specific boost. Bump its duration to 20 seconds.

 

Guards\Juggs are a heavy armour class. They're supposed to have strong toe to toe survivability - at least no less than a medium armour class.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Helig

[Qa-Weef]

Not the kind of changes that I'd make. Plasma Brand is your sustained damage skill. It has a good, relatively long DoT. And it's expensive as hell. In my rotations, it's secondary to Blade Storm, due to the fact that it hits significantly harder, frontloaded, and the PB DoT is longer than the coooldown of the skill.

 

I'd rather boost Guardian head-on survivability. Marauder Cloak of Pain essentially boosts their Kinetic\Energy mitigation to tank levels, and their Internal\Elemental mitigation even beyond that. It has an impressive uptime of 50%. It has no drawbacks. Focused Defense was introduced seemingly to compete with this ability - along with Commanding Awe changes. But it's rather Focus-hungry (usually, not much of an issue in Shien, but why the hell does it eat so much Focus in the fist place?), it has a significantly lower uptime, and, talented, it feels like a watered-down Marauder baseline skill+talented Annihilation selfhealing utility, all of which costs 0 Focus\Rage.

 

I propose that Focused Defense gets a boost to duration to match the uptime of CloP (20-25 sec duration\45 sec cooldown), and its either initial, or overtime Focus cost is removed via talents. This should provide the face to face longevity that heavy armour is supposed to provide, but doesn't, because its mitigation bonus is only 5-ish% more than Medium.

 

I can see Undying Rage\Guarded by the Force being a baseline Knight skill - not a Sent\Marauder skill. I understand that it would be a significant change for balancing multiple areas of the game, and, failing that, I believe that Push should have a 30-45 sec cooldown baseline. I also feel that Guard\Jugg Blade Ward needs a proper baseline AC-specific boost. Bump its duration to 20 seconds.

 

Guards\Juggs are a heavy armour class. They're supposed to have strong toe to toe survivability - at least no less than a medium armour class.

 

Very articulate, I like your idea of buffing focused defence, but imagine the the ****storm it would create. In all honesty i think it would be easier just to tweak the cd(re:triple) of CoP.

 

However I have to insist that removing the sunder requirement from Plasma Brand would be a good idea. It's more so to address a gripe from prolonged exposure against some good Assassin/Shadow's/Operatives/Scoundrels. As you've said PB is one of our bread and butter abilities and failure to apply sunder can really throw off Vigilance rotation, and in competitive play missing that one ability can mean the difference between life and death.

[Helig]

Very articulate, I like your idea of buffing focused defence, but imagine the the ****storm it would create. In all honesty i think it would be easier just to tweak the cd(re:triple) of CoP.

 

However I have to insist that removing the sunder requirement from Plasma Brand would be a good idea. It's more so to address a gripe from prolonged exposure against some good Assassin/Shadow's/Operatives/Scoundrels. As you've said PB is one of our bread and butter abilities and failure to apply sunder can really throw off Vigilance rotation, and in competitive play missing that one ability can mean the difference between life and death.

 

Don't think that buffing Focused Defense would create a sith-storm. Untalented, it's an awfully expensive, conditional self-heal. Talented, it's a substandard (as far as uptime-benefit is concerned) mitigation+selfheal. It's not useless, but, in correlation with its benefit, it's cost is unforgivably high, and its uptime is surprisingly low.

 

As far as stealthers go, OH Slash DoT is usually enough. You can't really avoid using Sunders on your main target, and PB isn't the skill I'll use first during a frontloaded burst on a target-switch. Sunder requirement on PB is, I daresay, the least of Vigilance Guardian concerns.

[Qa-Weef]

Don't think that buffing Focused Defense would create a sith-storm. Untalented, it's an awfully expensive, conditional self-heal. Talented, it's a substandard (as far as uptime-benefit is concerned) mitigation+selfheal. It's not useless, but, in correlation with its benefit, it's cost is unforgivably high, and its uptime is surprisingly low.

 

As far as stealthers go, OH Slash DoT is usually enough. You can't really avoid using Sunders on your main target, and PB isn't the skill I'll use first during a frontloaded burst on a target-switch. Sunder requirement on PB is, I daresay, the least of Vigilance Guardian concerns.

 

To me this doesn't seem correct, because PB provides our strongest dot and sets up BS to crit, if anything not applying PB 1st or 2nd after FL is a dps loss, especially considering that every second counts in pvp. Another option around removing the sunder requirement from PB is to make Sunder a guaranteed hit. Which again isn't too much of a game breaker.

 

If you get jumped by a good shadow/assassin tank and they parry/dodge your initial sunder its GG. Blowing awe is an option but chances are they'll have just laugh through your attacks.

 

I like the idea of Turning Focused Defence into a I win button that brings us in parity with sentinels/marauders. I think it would make us a bit too strong for ranged classes but hey who cares about balance anyway?

[Helig]

To me this doesn't seem correct, because PB provides our strongest dot and sets up BS to crit, if anything not applying PB 1st or 2nd after FL is a dps loss, especially considering that every second counts in pvp. Another option around removing the sunder requirement from PB is to make Sunder a guaranteed hit. Which again isn't too much of a game breaker.

 

If you get jumped by a good shadow/assassin tank and they parry/dodge your initial sunder its GG. Blowing awe is an option but chances are they'll have just laugh through your attacks.

 

I like the idea of Turning Focused Defence into a I win button that brings us in parity with sentinels/marauders. I think it would make us a bit too strong for ranged classes but hey who cares about balance anyway?

I can definitely see where you're coming from with PB, but I was speaking more of a pre-execute phase=>execute phase target switching. I definitely wouldn't oppose lifting the Sunder requirement on PB, but I don't think it's a huge problem.

 

As far as Focused Defense becoming an "iwin" button - I really don't think it would come to this. The main gripe with Marauders is about the number of their defensive cooldowns and their flexibility. Camo is an excellent cast time interrupt\distance closer, which also doubles as a shield wall (6 seconds talented 50% damage reduction on 45 sec c\d is quite a lot, if you ask me), There's also the infamous Undying Rage=>Medpac, which really doesn't need comments.

[Skroting]

Just replying to the opening statement, and saying it's a "fact" that vigilence guards are the weakest is just plain wrong. I do have issues with a watchman/marauder mirror build, but i do not have any issues with shadows combat sents, focus guards or scoundrels. Vanguards are a whole other matter, where they are much more difficult to fight than any of the other ones i've mentioned.

[dufox]

after 1.3 i can honestly say i am not afraid of any class in a 1v1.

in 1.2 the only class to fear was a shadow.

 

hell even pyrotechs are not that scary. (granted u have to be careful with them)

 

this topic is 100% false.

[Sinatore]

Hey now, c'mon guys. According to OP ive "acknowleded" that vig guardians are weak, and that the general consensus is that guardians are bad, and that now im a bioware working troll! OP im not trolling im simply saying that problem is with you, NOT with guards. Work on your skills and try to be mindful that you arent as good as you may THINK. Every class could use tweaks but guardians are in a very good place right now. Stop being an arrogant and ignorant noob. And one last thing, im pretty sure no one on this thread has agreed with your "factual guardians suck" statement nonsense.

 

Peace out home skillet ! Lulz

[Marqhill]

I LOVE the Vigilance Spec for PvP and PvE, although I rarely PvE myself. I personally love the way that it plays. The damage output, the cc immunity, and the overall survivability are great. I'm currently playing Focus Spec because my war zone group needs the burst AoE damage but I honestly find it to be pretty boring. It's an incredibly easy skill tree to play and it really is all built up around doing a single move over and over again as often as possible. I get knocked back all the time, I don't throw out the same endless flurry of attacks that I do in Vigilance and I don't survive as long because as soon as you do your first Sweep Bomb they focus you each and every time you force leap into a fight. The only reason I'm playing it is because the other Focus Guardian that we had left the game and went to play Diablo 3 and hasn't come back since. With that said I actually got full augmented war hero PvP gear before I switched from Vigilance to focus and I was putting up some huge damage numbers. It was exceedingly rare for me to not be in the top 3 or at the very least top 5 in war zone damage. So the damage output is awesome. The increase on our Dispatch availability from 20% to 30% was an amazing buff. It's really a great class.

 

As it concerns a buff I don't think that a buff is absolutely necessary. But I do think that if they were going to buff the spec then the best way to do it would be to buff plasma brand just a little bit. I think if Plasma Brand was also a snare in addition to doing elemental damage then I think that would balance it out quite well. If you compare Plasma Brand to Force Exhaustion that's pretty much the only thing that makes Force Exhaustion superior. Both or a DOT both are a Force Attack both of them allow you to proc your big hit (Force Rush for Plasma Brand and Singularity for Force Exhaustion). But Force Exhaustion has a snare that turns your target into a punching bag. Which is pretty freakin' awesome. Force exhastion and Plasma Brand also do the same amount of damage just about. But Force Exhaustion is more burst because the DOT is over a shorter period of time. So I think it would also be great if they reduced the duration of Plasma Brand to 6 seconds but left the damage the same. So the same amount of damge but more burst. It also makes it so that snare isn't over powered as it would only last 6 seconds and not 12 seconds.

 

I don't think it would be imbalanced to make these changes. Considering that the Assault spec'ed Vanguard has a DOT and a snare on their regular attack that actually does pretty much just as much damage over time as Plasma Brand and has a range of 30 meters I don't think that adding a snare to a melee attack that costs 4 focus (in shien form) is really that big of a deal.