1.3 Thoughts thus far...

[Xinika]

Hi, some thoughts.

 

KC (In PvP) not sure how you PvE folks are holding up. At this point, a full-tank geared KC is a wasted slot over a VG/Guardian who can not only fulfill the role better but just simply last longer. Even in full WH tank gear, I drop unbelievably fast compared to the other tanks out there. There's just no reason to bring a Shadow on board to tank for rateds. Not when there's far superior options out there. Playing in DPS gear isn't even a redeeming option. You're not doing heavy pressure and you're certainly not tanking anything. I find the nerf to KC quite frankly overdone and poorly thought out.

 

Even playing the disruptor role... 23/1/17 can do more damage and have more CC on targets. The standard 31/x/x KC builds have really lost it's flavour and now (as predicted)and are being replaced by real tanks. So this opens up the doorway for us to perform in our DPS specs, right? Uh... not really. Our DPS specs on a whole have been performing rather poorly.

 

Infiltration (as expected) has hit another low point. It's unbearable to even test that spec now at this point but I still keep trying with some glimmer of hope. The "sustained" damage is really laughable compared to other ACs/Specs out there... even our own Balance just makes me facepalm at infil. I even swapped up my mods/enh to gain different stat outputs such as high crit 28%. Spec is just overall in a bad spot and (imo) needs to be reworked to support the shift where the game is headed: Sustained.

 

Balance is better, but guys... have you seen what Balance Sage DPS/Sorc DPS can do in 1.3? They are very, very good. Their pressure upkeep is excellent, they can off-heal, they can pull, they can cast bubbles. They just completely outclass a Balance Shadow in every shape and form and I hate saying that. We're like a substitute version of a DPS Sage if a group doesn't have one.

 

23/1/17 Looks to be the real viable spec for us in rateds at this point. The utility of KC and Balance (Excluding Sever Force) along with solid sustained damage and respectable burst. On top of that, it's just as tanky as KC. Of course, I do not expect this to remain so forever. The meta-game constantly shifts and I would hope it doesn't stay the same.

 

All in all, I'm not too happy with 1.3. I can understand gutting one part of KC, but not to the level it's at. It's... bad. I really, really, REALLY expected BW to do something with our DPS specs. The fact that silly hybrid specs are outperforming 31/x/x is a design flaw and should be immediately looked at. This class is WAYYY too geared toward solo play at this point thanks to 1.3. Yeah, KC can still beat any other class/spec 1v1, or infil will make short work of someone that's wandering off alone. But... we're in a rated age, and people simply do not play stupid or alone. Our damage on a whole is lackluster and we need something done to this class immediately. Especially our DPS trees.

 

The whole "Jack of All Trades" is now looking at warming the bench. Rateds want Specialists, not Generalists. Guess what we are?

 

PS:

Insta-Project is cool for KC/Balance. Hate it for Infil.

Also... has anyone else noticed FiB not healing for it's descriptive amount?

Currently maining 7/31/3.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Xinika

[XakTsaroth]

I have to agree with much of what you said here. I switched to hybrid after trying to compete effectively since the 1.3 patch as 31/X/X. I could not do enough useful things and with my ability to last longer in fights reduced it was not worthwhile. I have full WH etc. but the sustained vs. burst thing has not allowed me to survive longer against competitive players. I think that BW would have to consider making a change to how shields work if they intend to allow tanks to soak up damage in PvP.

 

That said, the added utility of cc's and such makes the hybrid a better "team" spec at this point. Perhaps I am doing something wrong but I have only ever played KC since game launch so I am very comfortable with this class. 1.3 seems to have given me fewer options so far. I will continue looking to see if there is something I am missing.

 

Xak Tsaroth

He who teaches also learns...

[afupia]

I agree with everything you wrote. Right after 1.3 came out there was a post talking about 1.3 changes. I was amazed at the shadows saying they really felt no change or very little change. I ran through every spec again trying to see what was best for 1.3. I am currently running 23/1/17 and seems to be the only spec worth anything. It was so bad for me I made a char on your server and tried to send you a tell. After reading the other post, I wanted to see if you were having the same experience as me. Glad you posted this because I was not able to reach you in game. I feel that we as shadows are a burden to our group now. We are not good tanks compared to other classes and arent good dps compared to other classes.

[DarthNuke]

The class has been pigeon-holed.

 

Only viable (allowed) rated specs are 31/0/10 and 27/1/13. And really, only one Shadow can be a filler for 1 of the 2 open slots in the premade, which is not preferred. (6 of the 8 are predetermined must haves.) That said, I'm averaging 320K damage and 115K protection in rateds with hybrid spec.

 

Anyways, the problem is 2 fold.

 

1.) Like I said, our class has been pigeon-holed. Infiltration is useless. Balance is not needed, since a Sage can do the same job better. Only having 2 useful specs, which really isn't needed in a team, that's a design flaw that is correctable by revamping the trees.

 

2.) Other classes are just much better in team play. Call them OP, or just having a better design. Don't matter...

 

Only hope for the class is revamping and/or nerfs to other classes. Sad but true, imo.

[Pizzel]

My guild has seen this as well. Shadow tanks are the worst for guard ATM. Both the healer and shadow are just melting even with full Wh tank gear. Like stated only thing shadow brings is more utility but the VG and guardians are just better tanks with higher Mitigation. Even in butt all guardian tanks are ridiculous right now. Much better carriers than shadows!! How that happened so fast is beyond me.

 

Now I haven't ran tank spec in rateds yet. Had another shadow or 2 in KC spec or hybrid. The only dps class viable to me is the Arika hybrid. When kept up I am putting up ridiculous numbers and saving objectives. Insta lift fib and many 5k crits even in rateds.

 

Now the key point is being kept up. Our dps spec is just so squishy. If ur medpac , deflection or slip away is on cd and ur healers are being pressured I just die. It's crazy how hard we get hit. I think sage dps and shadow dps is just too squishy. What sucks is a Vanguard and slinger just hits so much harder and seem easier to be kept up.

 

The 23-1-17 is the best rated spec but there can be only 1 per team. Otherwise ur taking up a spot for a hybrid healer or top tier dps like sent, slinger or vanguard. the healing debuffs the 2 classes have are so valuable.

 

Shadows are in a tough spot ATM. We need a heal debuff bad. Also our gap closing in dps specs is awful. Our force speed should not be stunned and it should break stuns and roots.

 

Fact is the only spec performing well in all situations is 23-1-17. That is really sad Bioware.

[naomicampuzano]

Now this is very sad.

 

I was hopping to hear your thoughs about this. Been trying every spec possible, then finally went back to the 23/1/17.

I had to move from a dead server to jedi covenant, decided to try the shadow and loved it. My toons are still stuck on that server because i cant move them here where all my friends are, but i was perfectly happy with my shadow and now they do this. Just cant believe how the nerf a class base on the QQ`s on the forums. Really sad.

[Xinika]

That said, the added utility of cc's and such makes the hybrid a better "team" spec at this point.

Indeed. Does anyone else see a huge problem with that?

 

Now I haven't ran tank spec in rateds yet. Had another shadow or 2 in KC spec or hybrid. The only dps class viable to me is the Arika hybrid. When kept up I am putting up ridiculous numbers and saving objectives. Insta lift fib and many 5k crits even in rateds.

Have not tried 13/28 but I really need too. Might actually be a viable option.

 

I agree with everything you wrote. Right after 1.3 came out there was a post talking about 1.3 changes. I was amazed at the shadows saying they really felt no change or very little change.

I have a serious question. Are these people playing rateds against competitive players? People who know their roles, where they're supposed to be and just frankly don't suck? It's a night and day difference between normal warzones and rated warzones. Our class is in a really, REALLY bad spot atm. I am not going to sit here and feed you nonsense or false hope. Every other class in this game has a solid spot. We do not. Heck, even Scrappers can respec to Sawbones and instantly become arguably the strongest healer in game.

 

The class has been pigeon-holed.

 

1.) Like I said, our class has been pigeon-holed. Infiltration is useless. Balance is not needed, since a Sage can do the same job better. Only having 2 useful specs, which really isn't needed in a team, that's a design flaw that is correctable by revamping the trees.

 

2.) Other classes are just much better in team play.

 

Only hope for the class is revamping and/or nerfs to other classes. Sad but true, imo.

I agree with the fact that we have been pigeon-holed. But where too? Hybrid specs?

Ugh, the idea makes me cringe...

 

It's bad, but I can't agree on nerfing other classes. I can see PTs getting a nerf, truthfully.

They are far too defensive for the amount of damage they are currently pulling off.

 

Fact is, our class NEEDS something unique. We currently bring nothing to the table that

other Specialists cannot do better. I had hoped it wouldn't come to this point, but that's just

being in denial. It's painfully obvious when you step into a real warzone. The fact that there

is no small scale PvP (Which our class is geared toward) is hurting...

[XakTsaroth]

You are correct Xinika in the small scale battle reference. We have some usefulness in mass with the reduction in damage output of enemies as well as small snare from Slow Time but I am not sure how much it amounts to. I like to believe it enables my team to stay up a bit longer or run ahead in huttball and voidstar. Probably deluding myself. My stubbornness to make the true 31 point or better tree work has led me to once again try and fore-go my hybrid tho the hybrid is a lot of fun to play at times. I doubt many of you care but in an effort to share I am mentioning it. Perhaps Bioware will realize that they cannot cater to all the folks by making things bland to become equal. Every class has to have some flair! I feel we are missing our signature.

 

As an aside, I still have the most difficulty with conceal operatives in melee. Some of em can seemingly stun lock me at the start of an engagement and it is an uphill climb out of the health deficit. If any of you wish to shoot me a private message with some useful tips I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

 

Xak Tsaroth

He who teaches also learns

Edited June 30, 2012 by XakTsaroth

[teremx]

13/28 seems worse after the patch, maybe its just me.

[naomicampuzano]

13/28 seems worse after the patch, maybe its just me.

 

I tried this one too right after the patch and to be honest it hasnt worked for me. I have full BM gear, with a couple of WH stuff, ear and implant , i hit hard, and defend very well but never get those big crits everyone talks about, even less now. So im thinking i still need to learn more about this class but with all this changes I honestly dont know what to do.

[teremx]

Yea, it just felt clunkier when i tried it. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601cMcRr0zZkZrfMs0Msk.2 is what i've been playing around with and it seems better than it. Edited June 30, 2012 by teremx

[Pizzel]

13/28 is putting out a lot of steady damage for me. But it could be gear. Im at 1212 primary damage and 612 bonus. I hit hard all the time. But it is quite squishy. For rateds I have used it with only 2 healers and 2 tanks and I wasn't getting very many heals. So i died a lot and wasnt up as much as the Kinetic hybrid.

 

It's tough. We are very similar to sages. kind of at a loss. Atleast they have heal specs though. What are we? some half dps/tank hybrid? I just don't get it. So many classes outside of ours are hurting.

 

Really top ranked 8 mans can just have Op healers jugg tanks marauders and powertechs and just wreck. Not even needing half the classes for top ranked pvp is complete travesty...

[InariOkami]

In my experience, shadow tankiness has gone down a lot in PvP. Our damage is still pretty high, but as 23/1/17, if I pop my guard on a healer getting beat on, I will drop instantly. I'm contributing a lot to my team in terms of utility by CCing and peeling/killing out the ***, but it seems like viability has gone down as KC a lot since the nerf. We still perform well as the "Jack of all Trades", but we're only a decent class now, no more no less. Infil and Balance are still dead, I didn't try 0/13/28 for too long once 1.3 hit before respeccing so I don't know how that would perform, would like to know though since it's really fun to play.

[DarkSaberMaster]

The thing that got me about this nerf is that it went totally contrary to what they wanted to accomplish back in 1.1.3. Not sure the exact patch, but it was the one where they were trying to get rid of the hybrid specs by nerfing stance dancing. They also increased the healing of Combat Tech and made Slow Time more attractive because they said we weren't performing how they wanted us to be and that they wanted the Kinetic Shadows to play a full 31 point spec. Then they come and take away what they had given us and then some (nerfing our armor bonus), making the hybrid role more attractive.

 

That is what I don't understand about why this happened.

[teremx]

The thing that got me about this nerf is that it went totally contrary to what they wanted to accomplish back in 1.1.3. Not sure the exact patch, but it was the one where they were trying to get rid of the hybrid specs by nerfing stance dancing. They also increased the healing of Combat Tech and made Slow Time more attractive because they said we weren't performing how they wanted us to be and that they wanted the Kinetic Shadows to play a full 31 point spec. Then they come and take away what they had given us and then some (nerfing our armor bonus), making the hybrid role more attractive.

 

That is what I don't understand about why this happened.

 

If they really wanted to get rid of hybrids, they would force you to take 31 points in a tree, similar to that other game... cough... cough...

[NeverRose]

At least Chuck Norris Kick is cheaper.

 

I kinda disagree that 31/x/x lost it's charm, it's not like they gutted our utility or anything, just survavibility.

 

I don't know, maybe it's because of my amazing healers (in premade) or maybe it's about being more cautious or maybe it's because of more endurance (hello augments all over the place) but I don't feel much more squishier than before. Yes, the survavibility went down but not THAT much. Imo.

 

I do agree about pidgeon-holing though. So who are we now? Pretty much an offtank/support dps with taunt and guard. I look at shadows right now and what I see is a vanguard with arguably better survavibility, stealth, less dmg output and less burst.

 

In other words, from pragmatic point of view, yes, shadow might not be the no. 1 choice in rateds (hello Warmongers, nice Huttball juggernaut train you have) but oh well.

 

In my eyes the scapegoat of the game is still commando, so all is good.

Edited July 1, 2012 by NeverRose

[Wassawp]

I've been running rated games on my KC shadow, Fully WH geared except for the weapon and the offhand. (DPS geared). i'm the only shadow in the setup (2 commando healers, 2 sentinels, 1 vanguard dps, 1 vanguard tank, 1 guardian dps) and i'm mostly assigned to node/door guarding in denova/aldeeran/voidstar. In huttball as the only stealther i'm the one infiltrating the ennemy lines to give passing opportunities + Getting the ball at the very begining with force speed.

 

I wouldn't say KC shadows aren't needed in rated, the utiltiy we bring with our CCs, stealth and such, with a very decent survivability on top is a reason enough to bring one of us in rated. But i agree that a team with more than 1 shadow would be crippled.

[DarthNuke]

Update to my previous post, we're not running with Shadows in rateds now...

[ragamer]

As expected... Rated PvP will make class teamplay flaws shine...

 

...And this is just Presesson 1...

 

...So after the botch 1.3 has been for Shadow in general, we can expect a swift revision on our "group contribution" (I hope also for PvE)...

 

...Specially when real items start to be poured that requires effective Ranked WZ performance, but there is a problem...

 

...Hurried forced "rebalance" process rarely work, break classes and tosses them into a long boost-nerf cycle.

 

On the bright side at least BW Devs were wise enough to create PS1, instead of directly going with the Ranked PvP Bizz (Like the OTHER game foolishly did), to get some metrics on which Team compossitions dominate RWZ... So lets hope they do not turn blind to what the PvP Community is telling them... No, not whines on forums, but which teams they like to go with to a RWZ.

Edited July 1, 2012 by ragamer

[RockysRevenge]

I've been working on my guardian alt for some time now...got my shadow to 50 and stopped playing. Having just picked up a set of recruit gear with a few BM and PvE pieces thrown in, I can say (ironically) that I've never felt more powerful. I did go with a hybrid build, simply because of the things people have been saying here, and I can definitely feel the difference between 31/0/10 and 23/1/17.

 

I know people aren't happy with the changes, and I wouldn't dare go back to full tank, but regular (non-rated) PvP feels good to me now. I can actually kill people, harass healers, and do my job in general. It does seem to be lacking something, but I can live with it until the next buff. Force in balance + potency is just pure win.

 

EDIT: FiB is doing great damage, but as Shin said earlier, I haven't been noticing much self healing at all. Is it bugged?

Edited July 1, 2012 by RockysRevenge

[Xinika]

I'm actually running 7/31/3 Infil atm in rateds now. I'll post my thoughts on this when I get more games in. Going interesting. Anyone maining Balance care to share some thoughts?

[Order-Sixty-Six]

I said this in the other thread, but I honestly feel that the drop from 12% to 8% to harnessed shadows has rendered it useless. The only thing its good for is prolonging my death another hit now in combination with the defense nerf, and its more even useless when there's more than one person on me. I'm barely making 400 a tick.

 

I agree with you when you say they went too far. I'd be fine with a defense nerf, or a healing nerf, but both is too far given that DPS has gone up for everyone.

 

it's my reccomendation that bioware give back the healing since our defense is lower, there's no way that would be overpowered. I feel like they didn't balance us, they made use worse than other classes. I 2v1'd a sorcerer with my friend who was healing me, I was interrupting his casts, but somehow he was out-tanking me and killed us both. What has this game come to when a healing class tanks better than a tank.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Order-Sixty-Six

[teremx]

Balance is going good, if you can manage everything.

[dronepilot]

To be honest, I don't agree with the OP on this at all. I played several WZ's on Infiltration, and I am holding well with it. my gear is also augmented anyway, but as per usual the OP rubbishes a spec, that she/he obviously hates, and continues to promote tirelessly the same yawn about how great KC is.

 

No one will argue that KC is not great, because its a decent spec. However, I suggest to the OP rather than continue to rubbish peoples builds and skill tree's to actually attempt to be more constructive, rather than down right negative about what their 'own' personal experience is of playing that spec.

 

Remember, one's persons impression may not necessarily be your own, nor that spec that people bang on about being the 'best' spec, be the right chose for you. Play all the skill tree's and try them out.. Don't take anyone's word for it, experience it for yourself.

 

Personally, as difficult as Infiltration is, I love the spec, and have played this spec since January. I will not deter from it, just because some self appointed person tells me its a bad spec to play. Personally, its your game, play what you want to play. If your playing it badly, it might not be down to the skill tree, or your gear, it could well be that you just don't understand how to play that spec properly.

 

KC is not for everyone, nor is balance, and trust me I have played all three skill trees and I do know how each play in a Warzone. Pick your preference, and stand by that choice. If its not to your liking your always free to change your spec.

 

My impressions of 1.3 MUCH MUCH better for Infiltration than in 1.2 better than before. Cons.. Project is terrible the worst change on project I could of possibly wanted to see. Its just plain bad.

 

My two cents.

 

(by the way I wasn't really looking to nit pick at the OP) however, I just feel she/he tends to destroy any persons hopes or beliefs that my personal spec can actually achieve anything in PVP. Believe me, I do my part in Warzone's and have a reasonable amount of success with out being accused of being an OP class.

[KoruptData]

I'm actually running 7/31/3 Infil atm in rateds now. I'll post my thoughts on this when I get more games in. Going interesting. Anyone maining Balance care to share some thoughts?

 

I switched to 7/31/3 also and its going fine. Its what I played from the very start, didnt switch to KC til 1.2. Your role is very defined, take down targets fast. In KC I could do many roles and its weird playing knowing I cant guard an objective, I cant carry the ball anymore. Im a killer, a pretty good one, but nothing else. Almost need a guard and a pocket healer