Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[Gibbzter]

I'll go away when your side of the argument stops lying about how hard you have it.

 

There's no lying about it. Go roll a healing sage or sorc to 50 and try surviving against players with half a brain. I've been leveling a mara and I tear through sorcs/sages with ease. They are my number one kill target because I know how easy they are to kill. This isn't a mystery bub, like I said roll a healer... its plain as day.

[fungihoujo]

There is only one abuser of truth in this thread. You.

 

Counter the arguments with realistic, unbiased situations and you will be worth listening to. Until then youre either a troll or a very bad player trying in vain to preserve an unfair advantage to use as a crutch.

 

What are your arguments?:

 

• I find Healer hard to kill therefore they are fine
  Judging a class on your own inability to play is probably not a great plan. You have no experience of playing a healer so your opinion is frankly moot. I can kill any sorc/sage healer easily on my jugg, frankly (as i hit them for 5k+ with insta casts as I watch them try and channel a nice 2.5s spell that heals for a mighty 5k on crit) its not hard. Howcome you can't? Look in the mirror. You are the weakest link!
   
  
• You all want to be tanks!!!one
  Not thinking we should be a free kill for any faceroll DPS =/= wanting to be a tank. Is it that hard to understand? Currently the best mitgation in the game is held by DPS classes. How can that possibly be right?
   
  
• You are all bad and need to L2P derp
  If we are so bad then how come most of us are significantly better on alts/other classes? Magic? This is why you fail. You have such a limited, one dimensional experience of PvP in this game that you are simply not qualified (ironically for the self styled professor) to comment. I know personally that (despite having 10 years of PvP healing experience in multiple games and winning multiple tournaments) I am more effective in swtor on my MDPS than my healer. Despite traditionally being a self admmited "bad" melee player. Somehow now am magically good at MPDS and rubbish at healing? Really? What is the likely reason for that? Please prof teach us.
   
  
• You have loads of def cds already
  According to you everything we have is a def cd. FL has a slow attached therefore is a def CD!!! Face it the best def cd we have is the respawn button. Full heal with 0cd! Opd!!!! Obviously ignore the fact that 1/ our "def cds" (ie bubble) dont scale at all and 2/ Theyre all total junk anyway compared to what many dps classes get.
   
  
• WE has to be in melee rangeS!!!! We needs op cos yu have many range!
  You have multiple 10m skills, all melee classes have some. On top of that you have a massive arsenal of gap mitigators and gap closers. Melee range in this game is NOT the massive issue it is in other games. Dont tell me it is, i have NO issues chasing down a kiter on my jugg, 2 charges, spammable root ontop of normal cc is total easy mode.
  

 

I actually play melee DPS and heal. I have an experienced position. You do not. You just have an axe to grind as for some reason you think you're entitled to beat other players with little/no effort.

 

Sorc/Sage healers are BRUTALLY underpowered atm. You can't hide it and your malformed "proof" (lol) is fooling noone.

 

This right here. I have been playing a ranged DPS and healer for years in other mmos because, consistently, I have been amazing at them, and I have been not as good with MDPS.

 

In this game- I dominate without contest on a marauder- so either I am an absolutely amazing player to make a marauder good... or marauders are better than everything else by enough that even someone who is usually not great at MDPS will be better as one than they are as a healing or DPS sorc.

 

I don't want to play a marauder, I don't really like playing MDPS, even with MDPS that's so mobile and able to get around enough that you barely feel the melee restriction. But, I like playing a class that's not good for my team, squishy without any of the benefits squishiness usually brings, and overall feels ineffectual in any decent fight even less.

 

I'd rather not be pigeon holed into a single role of being a marauder- but when that AC plays so well and has so much to offer it feels like I'm a bad by the simple act of not exclusively PVPing on him and using my sorc for nothing but operations or something.

[Elkirin]

The mathematics showing how a Tank AND a healer MUST/SHOULD work together was very impressive.

 

This co joined functionality seems a fine thing but it works ONLY if warzone queues are removed and replaced with a defined group makeup, LFG system that ONLY matches teams that fit the group makeup set by the metrics.

 

This LFG style queue has always led to longer wait times for DPS in other games but Meh you can not argue with game design maths....

 

Ranked warzone queues could be left to the whims of the team leaders as over time, they will work out the more interesting team setups.

 

OR they could redesign the game to be fun for teams of any class make up .........

 

 

I

[psudosapien]

Ok. I'm not a "forum warrior", as I lurk more than I post, but I play a Sage in sub 50 and a Sorc at 50. This gives me a wide perspective on this topic. Up until last night, I did not see Walsh's point of view, until I was on my 50 Sorc and guarded by a "Tankassin". And apparently a defensive specced Tankassin.

 

While in a Novare Coast, I was solo guarding a point on my Sorc and I promptly melted at the hand of any DPS, until the Tankassin showed up. Once he guarded me, we were a good duo, being able to take on 1 or 2 opponents (maybe 3) with ease. As a healer, I was able to heal and assist the "Tankassin" with DPS.

 

Guard is the root of the problem with healers. Bioware implemented Guard, like their previous MMO, Warhammer Online (Mythic / Bioware merger), and DAOC (Mythic). Without guard or with guard provided by a DPS specced tank, healers (except maybe op/scoundrel) will just melt. With guard provided by a defense specced tank (focused on tanking, not DPS), a healer can survive. So, what can BW do to make everyone happy?

 

1) Buff healers and leave guard mechanic unchanged. This will lead to overpowered healers when guarded by defensive specced tank. However, defensive tanks will still have a purpose, besides being a meatshield hoping for heals.

 

2) Buff healers and remove the guard mechanic. If BW does this, then there is no purpose to a defensively specced tank in PvP, except to be a meat shield. They can take a beating and hope that they will be healed? Maybe they can do well specced all DPS ? But will the tank be able to play the way they want to play?

 

3) Leave thing as they are. This is actually the point that Walsh is trying to make. It is a MMO and you play on a team. But this is also the problem.

 

The problem is that you, nor BW can control a PuG. You may have a defensive specced tank in your PuG, but he may think that a DPS Mara is more valuable than a Sorc and decide to guard the Mara. What can you do? What can BW do?

 

And that is the root of the problem. BW can't control the player. The best that BW can do is design a game so that people can play the way they want to play and hope that people will learn to adapt and make the best of the mechanics.

 

Or, they could have designed the game up front to not require healers in the first place, which would have eliminated this problem....... ;-)

 

TL;DR. Guard is at the root of all of the problems with healers. A healer with a defense specced tank guarding them can survive, and the pair make beautiful music together. Buffed healer (compared to 1.3) + defensive specced tank providing guard = Overpowered. Remove guard + buff healers = no purpose for defensive tanks in PvP. BW can't control the player. The only thing they can do is try to design a game to allow people to PvP the way they want and hope the players will adapt to the mechanics of the game.

Edited July 3, 2012 by psudosapien

[psudosapien]

The mathematics showing how a Tank AND a healer MUST/SHOULD work together was very impressive.

 

This co joined functionality seems a fine thing but it works ONLY if warzone queues are removed and replaced with a defined group makeup, LFG system that ONLY matches teams that fit the group makeup set by the metrics.

 

This LFG style queue has always led to longer wait times for DPS in other games but Meh you can not argue with game design maths....

 

Ranked warzone queues could be left to the whims of the team leaders as over time, they will work out the more interesting team setups.

 

OR they could redesign the game to be fun for teams of any class make up .........

 

 

I

Lol.... You said it in a shorter post than mine that followed........

[dalin]

So let's get rid of the double standard. If healers are only allowed to function when there's a tank around. Let's strip all those defensive CD's DPS have and make them rely on guard too. That way we can both be in the same crappy boat together.

 

DPS is king in this game right now. Healers can't heal enough to even try to keep up with one DPS on them. Except for Operatives, the one good healer left in the game.

 

P.S. I expect to see a nerf to Sent/Mara, PT/Van soon. All I see now in Warzones are these two classes. It's just silly how many lightsaber icons there are on that scoreboard.

Edited July 3, 2012 by dalin

[Boyana]

It's their way of pretending that they are good and not playing a class that does significantly too much damage.

 

Yes. I once asked my friend why does he do it on his Marauder alt and he answered:

 

"You have to understand, it is so simple to play I have to do something more to keep my mind busy."

 

It's funny how you spent years before the game came out talking about how horribly BW's decision making is on just about every single matter from jedi to lore to marketing to balance to cinematics- but now that BW has boosted your class above every other they are your best friend and you are willing to say 'BW says so and thus it is true'.

 

+1

BW listened to people who were experiencing pve content or sub 50 warzones. Every person who was playing against organized teams, even in 1.2, knew Sorcs were the easiest class to kill.

When medal farming was popular, guess on who were DPSers farming 5k medals? On Sorcs.

 

Most of DPSers were, and still are, blinded by the results on the final score board. People only look how many damage and healing they've done ignoring the numbers of deaths and damage received.

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I am not sure why are people so scared of Sorc healer being buffed. There will be no more 3 shot targets that will make OP classes look cool on their Youtube videos?

[Ecchi_]

Ok. I'm not a "forum warrior", as I lurk more than I post, but I play a Sage in sub 50 and a Sorc at 50. This gives me a wide perspective on this topic. Up until last night, I did not see Walsh's point of view, until I was on my 50 Sorc and guarded by a "Tankassin". And apparently a defensive specced Tankassin.

 

While in a Novare Coast, I was solo guarding a point on my Sorc and I promptly melted at the hand of any DPS, until the Tankassin showed up. Once he guarded me, we were a good duo, being able to take on 1 or 2 opponents (maybe 3) with ease. As a healer, I was able to heal and assist the "Tankassin" with DPS.

 

Guard is the root of the problem with healers. Bioware implemented Guard, like their previous MMO, Warhammer Online (Mythic / Bioware merger), and DAOC (Mythic). Without guard or with guard provided by a DPS specced tank, healers (except maybe op/scoundrel) will just melt. With guard provided by a defense specced tank (focused on tanking, not DPS), a healer can survive. So, what can BW do to make everyone happy?

 

1) Buff healers and leave guard mechanic unchanged. This will lead to overpowered healers when guarded by defensive specced tank. However, defensive tanks will still have a purpose, besides being a meatshield hoping for heals.

 

2) Buff healers and remove the guard mechanic. If BW does this, then there is no purpose to a defensively specced tank in PvP, except to be a meat shield. They can take a beating and hope that they will be healed? Maybe they can do well specced all DPS ? But will the tank be able to play the way they want to play?

 

3) Leave thing as they are. This is actually the point that Walsh is trying to make. It is a MMO and you play on a team. But this is also the problem.

 

The problem is that you, nor BW can control a PuG. You may have a defensive specced tank in your PuG, but he may think that a DPS Mara is more valuable than a Sorc and decide to guard the Mara. What can you do? What can BW do?

 

And that is the root of the problem. BW can't control the player. The best that BW can do is design a game so that people can play the way they want to play and hope that people will learn to adapt and make the best of the mechanics.

 

Or, they could have designed the game up front to not require healers in the first place, which would have eliminated this problem....... ;-)

 

TL;DR. Guard is at the root of all of the problems with healers. A healer with a defense specced tank guarding them can survive, and the pair make beautiful music together. Buffed healer (compared to 1.3) + defensive specced tank providing guard = Overpowered. Remove guard + buff healers = no purpose for defensive tanks in PvP. BW can't control the player. The only thing they can do is try to design a game to allow people to PvP the way they want and hope the players will adapt to the mechanics of the game.

 

Good, now step into a ranked match and get focused by the entire team even with a guard and interrupted non stop while the other healer is CC'ed and see why in the upper echelon of ranked PvP the cast times are flat out to long for a sage/sorc healer to be viable.

[Oobob]

Yes. I once asked my friend why does he do it on his Marauder alt and he answered:

 

"You have to understand, it is so simple to play I have to do something more to keep my mind busy."

 

my concealment operative friend (all wh bis) rerolled a mara and was amazed. he would sit there and post in gchat all the cc and abilities they have, and it was so long he had to break it into two messages. in full campaign gear he was critting 3.5k in warzones on the mara, compare this to sorc or operative dps.

 

atm we have melee dps - in some case multiple classes - that:

 

perform stealth/burst/stunning better than concealment operatives, the rogue class (mara)

do more burst than glass cannon classes, with the exception of sniper

do more overall dps than most other classes, including glass cannons

have better defensive cds than most tanks, including abilities that make them literally invulnerable or up armor by an absurd degree

can heal themselves while most healers are too stunlocked to heal them (lol?)

have better cc, kiting, and range management than ranged dps

have insanely powerful ranged execute abilities

can debuff heals

absolutely murder most ranged dps except for sniper. my merc dps friends are also pissed.

 

apologizes to the melee operatives, who are gimped enough they're missing out on being part of an unstoppable melee dps zerg. all my friends and i with gimp ranged classes or the dps operative have rerolled pt, mara, and assassin and it's absurd how much better these classes are. it's not even arguable, it's people dying over and over while i run around like a maniac. and it's not one or two forgotten classes - about half of them are completely worthless compared to the alternatives available and this is obvious after a cursory glance at the mechanics.

 

i've healed since anarchy online, played heals in wow and warhammer and i've never found a game where healing is this stupidly unenjoyable. if the game is really slaughter the healer while he runs to survive for 3 more seconds, that may seem like a "strategic" way to do pvp, but it sucks and is obnoxious and isn't even internally consistent with how powerful op healers are.

 

i get the feeling they nerfed healing for ops being cleared too quickly and ruined sorcs in pvp. which is funny, considering the real problems with ops was the utility of the ring and the double proc on innervate. the double proc bug wasn't even addressed till 1.3 and ring is untouched, despite being near worthless in everything but voidstar and absurd ezmode in ops. i can mindlessly heal hm denova (lol cleanse being the secret) - all the change did is ruin pvp.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Oobob

[BurnsTwoThree]

I think it's amazing that healers believe they are not supposed to die in pvp, that they are supposed to be some until unkillable healing machine able to tank at least one dps and heal others. If you are focused in pvp, you will die. If you have at least a dps on you, you will be interrupted as long as their interrupt is up.

 

Problem for dps is that they are killed the moment they go after the healer. If that is happening your team is doing their job.

Nothing you said is even close to being in the ballpark of what is actually going on and what this thread is about. Nobody has/will ask for unkillable healers want to know why?

 

That would mean the other teams' healers would never die either causing long, drawn out and excruciatingly boring games.

 

We're asking to not die in 3 seconds w/ guard while being good players. Read some of the posts, there are a lot of people who make it more than clear that they know what they are talking about; and it seems most if not all of those people are in support to buff healing at a competitive level.

 

So thanks for trying to add something to the topic but being 100% wrong with everything you said. Professor Walsh would be proud.

 

 

 

2) Buff healers and remove the guard mechanic. If BW does this, then there is no purpose to a defensively specced tank in PvP, except to be a meat shield. They can take a beating and hope that they will be healed? Maybe they can do well specced all DPS ? But will the tank be able to play the way they want to play?

 

The only thing they can do is try to design a game to allow people to PvP the way they want and hope the players will adapt to the mechanics of the game.

You must not play many WZs if you don't see the benefit of having Tanks even without guard. Now I'm not saying that I would or would not want guard removed cause either way I don't care. But if you are not seeing the benefits of tanks even without guard in PvP, then you already may as well be a lost cause.

 

Hint: Assassin Tanks solo defending nodes in stealth while trying to cap/defend others.

 

My statements on Tank and Healer synergy are 100% true and those of us who play with real PVP'ers have seen it many times.

 

You're not a real PvPer. You've described your play style as one who still has a tough time with healers. You run away from players as soon as you take damage. You say that even you have problems with survivability as a class that has the most Defensive utility in the game whilst being the most overpowered class. Nothing you say holds any merit, so let the big boys talk.

 

The fact of the matter is you're not a healer, and I doubt you'll ever be coordinated enough to even try one. You're a one-class flavor of the month hero who hasn't brought a single good point into this topic other than the fact that PvP balance gets thrown off very easily. That's why were seeing healers who are incredibly underpowered, and DPS classes that do too much damage.

Edited July 3, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Annex]

Ok. I'm not a "forum warrior", as I lurk more than I post, but I play a Sage in sub 50 and a Sorc at 50. This gives me a wide perspective on this topic. Up until last night, I did not see Walsh's point of view, until I was on my 50 Sorc and guarded by a "Tankassin". And apparently a defensive specced Tankassin.

 

While in a Novare Coast, I was solo guarding a point on my Sorc and I promptly melted at the hand of any DPS, until the Tankassin showed up. Once he guarded me, we were a good duo, being able to take on 1 or 2 opponents (maybe 3) with ease. As a healer, I was able to heal and assist the "Tankassin" with DPS.

 

Guard is the root of the problem with healers. Bioware implemented Guard, like their previous MMO, Warhammer Online (Mythic / Bioware merger), and DAOC (Mythic). Without guard or with guard provided by a DPS specced tank, healers (except maybe op/scoundrel) will just melt. With guard provided by a defense specced tank (focused on tanking, not DPS), a healer can survive. So, what can BW do to make everyone happy?

 

1) Buff healers and leave guard mechanic unchanged. This will lead to overpowered healers when guarded by defensive specced tank. However, defensive tanks will still have a purpose, besides being a meatshield hoping for heals.

 

2) Buff healers and remove the guard mechanic. If BW does this, then there is no purpose to a defensively specced tank in PvP, except to be a meat shield. They can take a beating and hope that they will be healed? Maybe they can do well specced all DPS ? But will the tank be able to play the way they want to play?

 

3) Leave thing as they are. This is actually the point that Walsh is trying to make. It is a MMO and you play on a team. But this is also the problem.

 

The problem is that you, nor BW can control a PuG. You may have a defensive specced tank in your PuG, but he may think that a DPS Mara is more valuable than a Sorc and decide to guard the Mara. What can you do? What can BW do?

 

And that is the root of the problem. BW can't control the player. The best that BW can do is design a game so that people can play the way they want to play and hope that people will learn to adapt and make the best of the mechanics.

 

Or, they could have designed the game up front to not require healers in the first place, which would have eliminated this problem....... ;-)

 

TL;DR. Guard is at the root of all of the problems with healers. A healer with a defense specced tank guarding them can survive, and the pair make beautiful music together. Buffed healer (compared to 1.3) + defensive specced tank providing guard = Overpowered. Remove guard + buff healers = no purpose for defensive tanks in PvP. BW can't control the player. The only thing they can do is try to design a game to allow people to PvP the way they want and hope the players will adapt to the mechanics of the game.

 

Firstly, good job for presenting a relatively balanced argument, although I disagree with you .

 

You're right that guard is the root of the issue for healing balance overall in this game and what makes it a hard one to pin down. I do disagree with you on the specific case of sage/sorc (and merc for reasons of output only).

 

Why do I disagree in this case. Simply because these classes are just too immobile to play the way they currently do. Think about it, every significant heal for a sage/sorc is a cast of 1.5s+. 1.5s is a LONG time against good PvPers (let alone 2.5/3s) and with the amount of cc and interupt in this game what kind of good pvper is NOT going to interrupt a stationary cloth wearer with a cast bar above him?

 

The issue has never been about output. If left to freecast sorcs are more than fine just check the wz figures some people post.

 

The issue is about viability:

 

• If we need to kite to live then why are all our heals stationary casts/channels?
  
• If we need to stand still then why do we have cloth armor and no def cds?
  

 

The class is simply poorly thought out.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Annex

[BurnsTwoThree]

 

Why do I disagree in this case. Simply because these classes are just too immobile to play the way they currently do. Think about it, every significant heal for a sage/sorc is a cast of 1.5s+. 1.5s is a LONG time against good PvPers (let alone 2.5/3s) and with the amount of cc and interupt in this game what kind of good pvper is NOT going to interrupt a stationary cloth wearer with a cast bar above him?

 

The issue has never been about output. If left to freecast sorcs are more than fine just check the wz figures some people post.

 

The issue is about viability:

 

• 
  
• If we need to kite to live then why are all our heals stationary casts/channels?
  
• If we need to stand still then why do we have cloth armor and no def cds?
  

 

The class is simply poorly thought out.

 

Actually any decent size heal that will do anything at to a someone who needs heals that is taking damage from a geared player is 2.1+ seconds. Our smallest heal is a joke even with crits. C

 

But I will point out those two things you brought up.

 

The reason our class worked decently pre 1.2 was because our large heal could proc off of our HoT (which is also a joke) We were able to move and heal ourselves for a really good amount. Now that same heal can never be faster than 2.1/2.2 seconds and it'll heal for 2-3.5k less.

[spaace]

A few things to note on;

 

1) Do halfof these people QQing over replies even play a sorc/sage, melee.. or the game? Or are they just casual players who still haven't unlocked their legacy....

 

2) 11,000+ Views and still nothing about Bioware?

 

 

One of the bigger issues about DPS vs Healing is expertise... it scales like ****, and favours dps... I'm LUCKY if I can crit a 2.2s heal for 5k, and meanwhile I get smashed by a jug and a PT and not able to cast **** WITH all my cooldowns up.

 

(offtopic a bit..) New patch today, and still no fix or issue address about people getting stuck in whirlwind/force lift, that lets you get dps'd through it.... not to mention getting stuck in the rez area if you die from being CC'd....

Edited July 3, 2012 by spaace

[BurnsTwoThree]

1) Do halfof these people QQing over replies even play a sorc/sage, melee.. or the game? Or are they just casual players who still haven't unlocked their legacy....

 

2) 11,000+ Views and still nothing about Bioware?

There's another thread with the same amount about nerfing Marauders/Sentinels and Pyros/Vanguards because of their overtuned damage and there's nothing there either.

 

So I wouldn't get my hopes up on #2.

 

But no, most of the people saying healersare fine aren't healers themselves nor are they competent DPS either.

 

 

One of the bigger issues about DPS vs Healing is expertise... it scales like ****, and favours dps... I'm LUCKY if I can crit a 2.2s heal for 5k, and meanwhile I get smashed by a jug and a PT and not able to cast **** WITH all my cooldowns up.

What CDs? I mean our insta-crit ability doesn't increase the healing at all. Relics are gone, Biochem Adrenals are gone. We talking about Warzone Adrenals?

 

(offtopic a bit..) New patch today, and still no fix or issue address about people getting stuck in whirlwind/force lift, that lets you get dps'd through it.... not to mention getting stuck in the rez area if you die from being CC'd....

I pointed that out in another thread. They've literally done nothing with PvP that is of any use to anybody. Good news if you are in love with the group finder though, not me Bioware... not me..

Edited July 3, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[spaace]

Well, our only cooldowns for defense are Force wave / Speed / Force of will..

 

But they all suck, realistically.

 

 

It's not even fun being a sage healer anymore.... people know they suck, so they just zerg them down.. next.

 

Left alone, its ok... 1 pressure.. and its fml.

Edited July 3, 2012 by spaace

[psudosapien]

Good, now step into a ranked match and get focused by the entire team even with a guard and interrupted non stop while the other healer is CC'ed and see why in the upper echelon of ranked PvP the cast times are flat out to long for a sage/sorc healer to be viable.

 

You expect to survive with guard if the whole other team is on you? Another ranked team coordinates on voice and focuses on one target. No one should survive with those odds.

[Daellia]

One of the bigger issues about DPS vs Healing is expertise... it scales like ****, and favours dps... I'm LUCKY if I can crit a 2.2s heal for 5k, and meanwhile I get smashed by a jug and a PT and not able to cast **** WITH all my cooldowns up.

 

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than A is dealing in DPS.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Daellia

[Annex]

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than the DPS is dealing.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

 

He doesnt mean the expertise scaling.

 

Expect hes meaning force scaling off weapon damage. Been discussed in detail a couple of pages back.

[psudosapien]

You must not play many WZs if you don't see the benefit of having Tanks even without guard. Now I'm not saying that I would or would not want guard removed cause either way I don't care. But if you are not seeing the benefits of tanks even without guard in PvP, then you already may as well be a lost cause.

 

Hint: Assassin Tanks solo defending nodes in stealth while trying to cap/defend others.

 

I play a lot more than you assume. I don't like playing a tank so I don't. And I can't tell you what all their capabilities are in PvP because I'm usually too busy running back from the spawn point.

 

So, Tankassins and their Pub counterpart have a role. What about the other 2 tanks that can't stealth. What is their role? Is it fun? I don't know about others, but I play the game to have fun.

 

I do agree that running back from the spawn point all the time is not fun, but then I also try to use it to my teams advantage. If the other team is hungry for kills, then I have fun trying to bait them off the point so the stealther on the team can sneak in and cap.

[Egalatae]

You expect to survive with guard if the whole other team is on you? Another ranked team coordinates on voice and focuses on one target. No one should survive with those odds.

 

haha, expecting to live if only 1 good dps on you is hard enough. are you niave enough to think the person you quoted actually expects to survive with 2+? or as the words you put in his/her mouth suggest, the whole team.

If you're going to try and argue a point like an adult, at least stop the pathetic exaggerating.

 

 

 

to everyone else:

Noticed a severe drop-off in the healer numbers lately?

 

Seer sage in 50 is about as much fun as i imagine laying under a full tanker and repeatedly reversed over would be.

[psudosapien]

haha, expecting to live if only 1 good dps on you is hard enough. are you niave enough to think the person you quoted actually expects to survive with 2+? or as the words you put in his/her mouth suggest, the whole team.

If you're going to try and argue a point like an adult, at least stop the pathetic exaggerating.

 

 

 

to everyone else:

Noticed a severe drop-off in the healer numbers lately?

 

Seer sage in 50 is about as much fun as i imagine laying under a full tanker and repeatedly reversed over would be.

 

How did I put words in someone mouth or exaggerate ?? The post I replied to is:

Good, now step into a ranked match and get focused by the entire team even with a guard and interrupted non stop while the other healer is CC'ed and see why in the upper echelon of ranked PvP the cast times are flat out to long for a sage/sorc healer to be viable.

 

You might have missed the part in bold. The poster presented a hypothetical situation and I posted a valid response, in my opinion.

 

Let me rephrase my reply. No one should be able to survive that situation, no matter how short cast times are.

 

And if you read my earlier post, you will see that I am quite capable of discussing things like an adult, without resorting to insults.

Edited July 3, 2012 by psudosapien

[Arayla]

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than A is dealing in DPS.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

 

That assumes dps and healing scale at the same pace, which anyone who looks at a character sheet knows to be untrue. That is beside the point though as expertise isn't the problem, class design is. A class that requires mobility to live but acts as a turret is bad class design, not to mention no way to stay mobile when being trained.

[psudosapien]

Firstly, good job for presenting a relatively balanced argument, although I disagree with you .

 

You're right that guard is the root of the issue for healing balance overall in this game and what makes it a hard one to pin down. I do disagree with you on the specific case of sage/sorc (and merc for reasons of output only).

 

Why do I disagree in this case. Simply because these classes are just too immobile to play the way they currently do. Think about it, every significant heal for a sage/sorc is a cast of 1.5s+. 1.5s is a LONG time against good PvPers (let alone 2.5/3s) and with the amount of cc and interupt in this game what kind of good pvper is NOT going to interrupt a stationary cloth wearer with a cast bar above him?

 

The issue has never been about output. If left to freecast sorcs are more than fine just check the wz figures some people post.

 

The issue is about viability:

 

• If we need to kite to live then why are all our heals stationary casts/channels?
  
• If we need to stand still then why do we have cloth armor and no def cds?
  

 

The class is simply poorly thought out.

 

I can agree that the class is poorly thought out. Maybe they need to introduce healer forms, similar to the Mara / Sentinel (?) Let one form be as it is now, but add another form with instacast spells on various cooldowns. And Guard can only be applied when the healer is in the stationary form, not the mobile form.

 

I think someone may have suggested something like this before, either in this thread or another.

 

At least this game is easier for the devs to balance than Warhammer was when it first came out. ..

[BurnsTwoThree]

I play a lot more than you assume. I don't like playing a tank so I don't. And I can't tell you what all their capabilities are in PvP because I'm usually too busy running back from the spawn point.

 

So, Tankassins and their Pub counterpart have a role. What about the other 2 tanks that can't stealth. What is their role? Is it fun? I don't know about others, but I play the game to have fun.

 

I do agree that running back from the spawn point all the time is not fun, but then I also try to use it to my teams advantage. If the other team is hungry for kills, then I have fun trying to bait them off the point so the stealther on the team can sneak in and cap.

 

Yeah I shouldn't have even named a class for defending nodes alone. The stealth is really convenient, but in the same way Tank Assassin's can be useful because of their stealth, the other two tanks have benefits as well.

 

Powertech's/Vanguard always have a ranged ability up that they can use incase they're ever CC'd away from the door.

 

Guardian's/Juggs have leaps etc. Too tired too think of what makes them unique, not that it is a huge list or anything.

 

Just because Assassin tanks can stealth doesn't make them more necessary either. Juggs/Guards are more preferable in Huttball. Where Assassin's might be prefered in the Node games and Powertech's on Novare.

 

And I'm sure they are fun because I see quite a few people actually playing them right now.

 

Bed time.

 

That assumes dps and healing scale at the same pace, which anyone who looks at a character sheet knows to be untrue. That is beside the point though as expertise isn't the problem, class design is. A class that requires mobility to live but acts as a turret is bad class design, not to mention no way to stay mobile when being trained.

 

Force Speed- now removes all movement impairing effects and makes the caster immune to any movement impairing effects for 5 seconds.

 

They should put it deep into the healing tree so that only healers can get it so no one complains about the DPS having it.

 

God forbid they made it useful now that everybody stopped being bad and actually uses their roots

 

------------------------------

Edited July 3, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[ccoolmint]

I'm probably bringing a world of "lern2play, nub" upon myself for this. Oh well, I can take it. I know a well-played sorc is an asset to his team. The problem is that the sorc is fighting against his class's design in order to be an asset. Either that or he has a significant gear advantage. I can face tank any class that's in full recruit just fine, thank you for asking.

 

We're the squishiest class in the game, but we do "sustained" damage.

We do "sustained" damage, but only in one of our trees. We run dry pretty fast in the other.

We have to kite, but PvP is objective-based.

We have to kite, but all other classes have the tools necessary to counter our kiting.

We have a DoT spec, but it only has three dots, two of which do decent dps, and only one of which we can spam.

We have decent CC, but it's mainly broken by damage, which has *fantastic* synergy with our DoT spec.

We have decent CC, but try to actually use it and you run into resolve issues very quickly (I'm looking at you, backlash, knockback, and whirlwind).

We have great utility. Pretty much as great as every other class. (vanguard: grapple, guard, reliable aoe blind, and two taunts? on top of great burst damage? yes, please!)

We have a tree built around having a high crit%, but the 31pt talent is balanced around it being an automatic crit.

We have a turret spec, but it still revolves around sustained damage.

Our heal spec has to kite to survive, but its main heals are turret style.

Our heal spec is just as squishy as any of our other specs, but it has poor burst healing.

We have a force regen ability, but it costs our health. In order for us to heal. We lose health.

We lose our health to actually regain some force, but then we get ganked faster because we helped focus ourselves down. (Full force, though!)

 

What else am I missing?

 

We're not getting touched in 1.3, but my favorite build is getting nerfed by the relics/adrenals changes. RIP 21/2/18 burst dmg.

taken from the sorc forums i think its a pretty good list of the sorcs contradictions