Why is BW sitting on Paid Character Transfers?

[GalacticKegger]

Just for the record, I am typically a reasonable person. Thankfully, the sum of my being is not equal to some of my recent posts in this forum. When it comes to these rare situations, it usually only takes a week or so for the nerd rage to run its course (I updated my signature to reflect this lol). That is helped by other reasonable voices (usually external lol) that actually converse as if they have real knowledge of the situation. I sincerely wish that voice of reason had come from BioWare, but understanding business and politics as I do, I know why it’s coming from a few of you instead. Now that I have found a few reasonable voices (and the nerd rage virus has run its course – again), I thought I would expand my own knowledge base and ask a question you guys might actually be able to provide insight about.

 

Clearly, I am a layman so I will not pretend otherwise and ask from a layman’s point of view. Who knows? Perhaps this analogy will help other laymen understand it as well.

 

Essentially, the situation is like this: You have a glass nearly full of water. You have several other glasses of varying degrees of fullness. You want to consolidate all of the water into the fewest possible glasses. Why would you pour all of the water from the other glasses into the nearly full glass? Wouldn’t it make more sense to leave the nearly full glass alone and just fill one of the other glasses with the extra water? I have been thinking it makes more sense to have two nearly full glasses of water rather than having one overflowing glass of water. I think it would make less of a mess, at any rate.

 

Those who I hope will answer will understand the analogy. The others will just troll me and I’m okay with that. I’ve always been able to better accept things when there is a solid ‘why’ attached. I’m hoping to better understand the logistics involved so that I can know best what to expect in the future and better prepare myself if I end up in a similar situation down the road.

 

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time.

Good question. I suppose that would depend on whether or not those few big containers were actually full. I use the word container because glass assumes we can look at it (and possibly into it) from the outside and visually gauge how full it is. Using your analogy, both container capacities as well as how much the containers are currently holding are unknowns because we can't see inside of them. Until those quantities are known, it's all speculation.

 

This of course assumes that each container is an individual box. The Hero engine has a cloud-based server capability. So maybe the servers we see are just names whose assets are distributed across scalable '13th Floor' style megafarm clusters and not strapped to individual storage units. In which case named server hardware capacity is rendered moot.

 

The only fact we have is that we have no facts. Educated guesses perhaps, but nothing even remotely conclusive.

Edited July 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Taurusaud]

LOL! I am indeed a programmer, a long time programmer, and a project manager so I do know the code is there.

 

Yes I can tell that you are a beginner.

 

You obviously know nothing about programming.

 

Programming is extremely complicated and only math whizzes and foreign outsources can do it. Furthermore very few have ever attempted to transfer data from one server to another before, the process is extremely difficult and can actually take years of arduous development. Bioware allegedly has a team of hundreds, some of the best in the world, and we're very fortunate that it's taken them only 6 months to implement one-way transfers.

 

Paid transfers are EVEN MORE complicated than that, because Bioware needs to invent a way for the player to select a server for the SQL query, and also for their credit card to be charged. The complexity of these procedures is simply beyond your scope of comprehension. GIVE THEM TIME!!!!!

Edited July 10, 2012 by Taurusaud

[InnerPieces]

Programming is extremely complicated and only math whizzes and foreign outsources can do it.

 

Wow. Was this intended to be a facetious comment? You totally wrecked my train of thought on this one. While even someone of my limited programming experience could explain a few things about programming where you are totally off-base, I'll let someone more experienced do it. Instead, I'll just point out a few things that I find irritating.

 

First, where are we outsourcing our programming to? Outter space? You do realize this is a global forum, right? This area specializes in the English language, not the United States. Also, you are implying that most people in the United States are too stupid to handle mathematics, let alone programming. While that may be true for you and I, my wife (with her Master's Degree in Mathematics) would sincerely disagree with your assessment. I've programmed far more than she has in my lifetime and if it were not for fingers and toes I could not count past 5. You might have to understand the base concepts of advanced math to program in advanced languages, but not all programming requires extensive mathematics skill. No programming, that I am aware of, require you to come from a country other than the United States.

 

Furthermore very few have ever attempted to transfer data from one server to another before...

 

Very few meaning what, exactly? I've been involved with MMOs since 1998. Nearly every MMO I have ever played has incorporated server transfers to one degree or another. I don't think it's as mystical a science as you claim. I would agree with your choice of "few" if you are comparing every single MMO that has ever been developed in any part of the world because that would include thousands of them. Still, it would only be a guess because I have only played around 8 or so.

 

GIVE THEM TIME!!!!!

 

Finally, I have no problem with giving them time if they can do the same for me. You see, I pay a reoccuring monthly subscription. When I cancel my subscription and my play time lapses I am unable to log into the game to play. I can call them up and say, "Hey, I don't get paid until next week. GIVE ME TIME!" and do you know what would happen? I'm willing to bet they would not give me time. The only real power I have (assumed or not) as a consumer is whether or not I open my wallet. No amount of caps, extra exclamation marks, or any other font changes will convince me or anyone else that we have to give BioWare anything more than a subscription fee and only if we intend to play at that time.

 

Thanks, but no. They do not "give me time," so I will not "give them time." They can earn more time by having a game environment I enjoy playing in, just as I can earn the chance to play in their environment by paying them money. Those may be the simplest terms I can explain the consumer / service provider relationship with.

Edited July 10, 2012 by InnerPieces

[InnerPieces]

Good question. I suppose that would depend on whether or not those few big containers were actually full. I use the word container because glass assumes we can look at it (and possibly into it) from the outside and visually gauge how full it is. Using your analogy, both container capacities as well as how much the containers are currently holding are unknowns because we can't see inside of them. Until those quantities are known, it's all speculation.

 

This of course assumes that each container is an individual box. The Hero engine has a cloud-based server capability. So maybe the servers we see are just names whose assets are distributed across scalable '13th Floor' style megafarm clusters and not strapped to individual storage units. In which case named server hardware capacity is rendered moot.

 

The only fact we have is that we have no facts. Educated guesses perhaps, but nothing even remotely conclusive.

 

Hey.. what is that? Is it... is that a forest? *squints* I can't tell from here. There are too many trees in the way.

 

I understand a professional would look at my analogy and think I'm comparing apples to Oldsmobiles, so I appreciate anyone taking it seriously enough to respond. I used an analogy because we don't really have concrete numbers. I do have research I conducted in the weeks leading up to the transfers, but they are observations, not concrete numbers. That's why I didn't use them.

 

I was thinking of the server load descriptions as absolutes. I do realize the thresholds can be altered so a different descriptor can be used. For instance, 100 people could make a server change from Light to Standard. The next day, they could raise that limit to 200 and I would be none-the-wiser. It would appear no change was made at all on my end.

 

Further, I was mistaken in assuming all of the server thresholds were set the same. It occurred to me this morning that different servers could have different thresholds to handle different loads and, once again, I would have no idea. I could log into the different servers and research the time, but even that is insufficient to draw a reasonable conclusion.

 

While I was incorrect about all of that, I cannot help but think proper communication from the BioWare team leaves no room for assumptions and they could have (and perhaps should have) explained the rough outline of their plan in more detail. Some of us are "too smart for our own good" and over analyze things, whether we want to or not.

 

What I can guess now is July was "Free transfers to specific servers" month. It appears August will be "Server Merge" month. I'm guessing by September we will have "Less restrictive" transfers.. paid or not.

 

(Edit: I just removed the bit about the F2P implementation and locked servers as there is a bug involved that is being resolved.)

 

If I've learned anything, I've learned that guessing is guessing and gets me nowhere fast. I'll just hedge my bets with RecklessMEDIC. While I have no indication he knows any more than I do, he speaks with enough confidence for me and about 20 others. At this point, that's good enough for me.

Edited July 10, 2012 by InnerPieces

[Taurusaud]

Wow. Was this intended to be a facetious comment? You totally wrecked my train of thought on this one. While even someone of my limited programming experience could explain a few things about programming where you are totally off-base, I'll let someone more experienced do it. Instead, I'll just point out a few things that I find irritating.

 

First, where are we outsourcing our programming to? Outter space? You do realize this is a global forum, right? This area specializes in the English language, not the United States. Also, you are implying that most people in the United States are too stupid to handle mathematics, let alone programming. While that may be true for you and I, my wife (with her Master's Degree in Mathematics) would sincerely disagree with your assessment. I've programmed far more than she has in my lifetime and if it were not for fingers and toes I could not count past 5. You might have to understand the base concepts of advanced math to program in advanced languages, but not all programming requires extensive mathematics skill. No programming, that I am aware of, require you to come from a country other than the United States.

 

Very few meaning what, exactly? I've been involved with MMOs since 1998. Nearly every MMO I have ever played has incorporated server transfers to one degree or another. I don't think it's as mystical a science as you claim. I would agree with your choice of "few" if you are comparing every single MMO that has ever been developed in any part of the world because that would include thousands of them. Still, it would only be a guess because I have only played around 8 or so.

 

Finally, I have no problem with giving them time if they can do the same for me. You see, I pay a reoccuring monthly subscription. When I cancel my subscription and my play time lapses I am unable to log into the game to play. I can call them up and say, "Hey, I don't get paid until next week. GIVE ME TIME!" and do you know what would happen? I'm willing to bet they would not give me time. The only real power I have (assumed or not) as a consumer is whether or not I open my wallet. No amount of caps, extra exclamation marks, or any other font changes will convince me or anyone else that we have to give BioWare anything more than a subscription fee and only if we intend to play at that time.

 

Thanks, but no. They do not "give me time," so I will not "give them time." They can earn more time by having a game environment I enjoy playing in, just as I can earn the chance to play in their environment by paying them money. Those may be the simplest terms I can explain the consumer / service provider relationship with.

 

It was a joke sir.

 

All your account information is put into tables (think of Excel... or Lotus 123 if you're old and withered)..

There's one table just for logging in, where each row contains a player's username, password, and some unique ID they assign to your account.

 

Then there's a second table that contains all the player-created characters, each row contains stuff like the character's name, race, items for that character's inventory, etc, etc. One of those cells contains the address of the server that character is a resident of. Another cell contains the unique account ID that's also in the first table (which is how they can tell which account each character belongs to).

 

When you log onto the game, it checks the first table to see if it contains the username/password combination you submitted. If it exists, it retrieves the account ID associated with that username/password and looks through the second table to find all character's with that same account ID, and populates the character selection interface with them. Then once you select a character it uses all the info in that character's row to create a virtual representation of your character on the appropriate server, which you then control and play with.

 

So to switch servers, all you need to do is switch that one cell in the database to point to a new server. It's an sql UPDATE statement that literally takes 30 seconds to write and run. Not years silly. And the reason I know this is because it's a protocol that's used everywhere for all sorts of online transactions, they don't need to invent anything!

 

In other words, Bioware could have paid transfers working by the end of the day if they really wanted to (along with name-changes, race-changes, etc). And the talk about how transfers took months to implement and test is absolute bogus - the technology is already built for them (or anyone). Check out mySQL if you're interested in this type of stuff, it's a free database you can learn on. TOR probably uses Oracle which is expensive but has more efficient sorting methods, larger tables, among other features. They all use the same language though (SQL) so if you learn that you'll know how to interact with all DBs.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Taurusaud

[Graydon]

You obviously know nothing about programming.

 

Programming is extremely complicated and only math whizzes and foreign outsources can do it. Furthermore very few have ever attempted to transfer data from one server to another before, the process is extremely difficult and can actually take years of arduous development. Bioware allegedly has a team of hundreds, some of the best in the world, and we're very fortunate that it's taken them only 6 months to implement one-way transfers.

 

Paid transfers are EVEN MORE complicated than that, because Bioware needs to invent a way for the player to select a server for the SQL query, and also for their credit card to be charged. The complexity of these procedures is simply beyond your scope of comprehension. GIVE THEM TIME!!!!!

 

You have become my favorite forum poster.

[Graydon]

It was a joke sir.

 

All your account information is put into tables (think of Excel... or Lotus 123 if you're old and withered)..

There's one table just for logging in, where each row contains a player's username, password, and some unique ID they assign to your account.

 

Then there's a second table that contains all the player-created characters, each row contains stuff like the character's name, race, items for that character's inventory, etc, etc. One of those cells contains the address of the server that character is a resident of. Another cell contains the unique account ID that's also in the first table (which is how they can tell which account each character belongs to).

 

When you log onto the game, it checks the first table to see if it contains the username/password combination you submitted. If it exists, it retrieves the account ID associated with that username/password and looks through the second table to find all character's with that same account ID, and populates the character selection interface with them. Then once you select a character it uses all the info in that character's row to create a virtual representation of your character on the appropriate server, which you then control and play with.

 

So to switch servers, all you need to do is switch that one cell in the database to point to a new server. It's an sql UPDATE statement that literally takes 30 seconds to write and run. Not years silly. And the reason I know this is because it's a protocol that's used everywhere for all sorts of online transactions, they don't need to invent anything!

 

In other words, Bioware could have paid transfers working by the end of the day if they really wanted to (along with name-changes, race-changes, etc). And the talk about how transfers took months to implement and test is absolute bogus - the technology is already built for them (or anyone). Check out mySQL if you're interested in this type of stuff, it's a free database you can learn on. TOR probably uses Oracle which is expensive but has more efficient sorting methods, larger tables, among other features. They all use the same language though (SQL) so if you learn that you'll know how to interact with all DBs.

 

+1 Good Man

 

These IT programming "experts" have no idea what they are talking about. They want you all to believe though that the free transfers are in place, coded, and tested...creating a simple update where the player chooses destination server is going to destroy the world as we know it.

 

This is exactly what was accomplished when players hit the free transfer button. Their character's server name was updated. Bioware can get a high school kid to create a simple drop down list of destination servers. Please don't tell me how complicated this. You self proclaimed IT experts are not fooling anyone.

[InnerPieces]

It was a joke sir. .

 

Then you have my apology for the misunderstanding.

 

That was a great explanation and is more in-line with how I thought these things work.

Edited July 10, 2012 by InnerPieces

[GalacticKegger]

Hey.. what is that? Is it... is that a forest? *squints* I can't tell from here. There are too many trees in the way.

 

I understand a professional would look at my analogy and think I'm comparing apples to Oldsmobiles, so I appreciate anyone taking it seriously enough to respond. I used an analogy because we don't really have concrete numbers. I do have research I conducted in the weeks leading up to the transfers, but they are observations, not concrete numbers. That's why I didn't use them.

 

I was thinking of the server load descriptions as absolutes. I do realize the thresholds can be altered so a different descriptor can be used. For instance, 100 people could make a server change from Light to Standard. The next day, they could raise that limit to 200 and I would be none-the-wiser. It would appear no change was made at all on my end.

 

Further, I was mistaken in assuming all of the server thresholds were set the same. It occurred to me this morning that different servers could have different thresholds to handle different loads and, once again, I would have no idea. I could log into the different servers and research the time, but even that is insufficient to draw a reasonable conclusion.

 

While I was incorrect about all of that, I cannot help but think proper communication from the BioWare team leaves no room for assumptions and they could have (and perhaps should have) explained the rough outline of their plan in more detail. Some of us are "too smart for our own good" and over analyze things, whether we want to or not.

 

What I can guess now is July was "Free transfers to specific servers" month. It appears August will be "Server Merge" month. I'm guessing by September we will have "Less restrictive" transfers.. paid or not.

 

(Edit: I just removed the bit about the F2P implementation and locked servers as there is a bug involved that is being resolved.)

 

If I've learned anything, I've learned that guessing is guessing and gets me nowhere fast. I'll just hedge my bets with RecklessMEDIC. While I have no indication he knows any more than I do, he speaks with enough confidence for me and about 20 others. At this point, that's good enough for me.

Yes sir! Actually Bioware posted some "drop trou" overviews of the whole thing in the test forums during closed beta. But all the really meaty stuff was purged prior to the open beta stampede. Server population thresholds was an interesting topic (which of course can be individually balanced); as were discussions on distributed cloud infrastructures and their contributions to compilation delays and lag spikes in twitch-quick end user gaming environments. About the only thing I could maintain a link to was dev's early access server listings page leading up to launch.

 

So this whole server consolidation thing may simply be a legit remedy (in part anyway) for Bioware's "let's not get caught with our pants down like WoW did" kneejerk reaction to early access login queues by adding 72 servers on opening day. My guess is they've been playing catch-up for 6 months as a result & are finally getting a handle on it.

Edited July 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[HarleysRule]

Just a guess, but I'm thinking there won't be paid transfers until they have the forced mergers and server closings.

[Tarplee]

I just feel they want to work out the 'increased population cap' first, before allowing people to transfer where ever they want

This there figuring out potentially how many people would be interested in moving servers, and showcase how easy and efficient it is, before sticking a price on

[Tatebomb]

So after reading the latest update I am shocked. Not only are paid transfers NOT coming those who didn't move thier characters for whatever reason(don't like destination server, name change, etc...) are basically getting a big F U you're doing it anyway from BW. Just when you think they can't possibly make any dumber choices.....

[GalacticKegger]

So after reading the latest update I am shocked. Not only are paid transfers NOT coming those who didn't move thier characters for whatever reason(don't like destination server, name change, etc...) are basically getting a big F U you're doing it anyway from BW. Just when you think they can't possibly make any dumber choices.....

The dumber choice would be to delete straggling characters like LOTRO did. Bioware will send out emails at certain intervals to remaind players of what's coming. Anyone who doesn't act before their characters are auto-moved are either too busy to play and probably AFK from their account, or are waiting for the cops to come drag them kicking & screaming out of a closed bar so they can wake up the neighborhood in protest of their own ignorance.

[Cruxa]

Anyone who doesn't act before their characters are auto-moved are either too busy to play and probably AFK from their account, or are waiting for the cops to come drag them kicking & screaming out of a closed bar so they can wake up the neighborhood in protest of their own ignorance.

 

Or don't have enough character slots on the destination servers.

Hell, just give us the opportunity to even pay you (!) for tranfers to other destination servers than our designated ones. What's so complicated about that?

[MasterKayote]

So after reading the latest update I am shocked. Not only are paid transfers NOT coming those who didn't move thier characters for whatever reason(don't like destination server, name change, etc...) are basically getting a big F U you're doing it anyway from BW. Just when you think they can't possibly make any dumber choices.....

 

Can you look at me with a straight face and tell me you didnt know this was coming? If you can youre a very good liar.

 

What id like to know is why they didnt do this in the first place. At least then we'd be done with all the QQing.

 

Now we have to brace ourselves for another month of "OMG whyd you move me ? I lost my obviously not-so-unique name! You should continue to pay for and maintain an entire server just for me and those other 5 people I run into now and then"

Edited July 10, 2012 by MasterKayote

[Knockerz]

I just feel they want to work out the 'increased population cap' first, before allowing people to transfer where ever they want

 

That isn't going to fly. I have completely stop playing my free xfer characters and focus on my other server even though I don't have one 50 on that server.

[Kendiara]

Truthfully I hope they allow the paid character transfers before they do this final consolidation force move. I'm on a high pop server but my entire guild quit, and they only friends we (spouse and I) have that play are on a different server. We did baby characters, but seriously want our legacy stuff from the old server. Basically every time we log in on them all we are doing is losing time and experience because if/when the transfers happen it appears the highest legacy overrides the lower one.

 

Not to mention there are probably tons of people in this same situation. Make the servers that are being force moved unavailable for transfer and open a window (couple weeks maybe) for the rest of us to make those moves we desperately want. Then close it down so you can reset your server populations if you actually need to balance anything else, before reopening later when things are calmed down.

[GalacticKegger]

Or don't have enough character slots on the destination servers.

Hell, just give us the opportunity to even pay you (!) for tranfers to other destination servers than our designated ones. What's so complicated about that?

WoW has 10 so SW should have 20! hehe. Oh, if you insist I would prefer donations be sent to the Post Cataclysm Syndrome Relief Fund courtesy of Michael Morhaime. Edited July 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[DarthSabreth]

Or don't have enough character slots on the destination servers.

Hell, just give us the opportunity to even pay you (!) for tranfers to other destination servers than our designated ones. What's so complicated about that?

 

agreed im in the same boat, not enough slots avilable. i rolled all repub toons on kath hound and was sent to Ebon hawk. i rolled all empire toons on lord adraas and cant move to ebon hawk due to no space avilable.

 

all i want is the option to move to another destination server, pref a RP PVE server.

[Tatebomb]

Can you look at me with a straight face and tell me you didnt know this was coming? If you can youre a very good liar.

 

What id like to know is why they didnt do this in the first place. At least then we'd be done with all the QQing.

 

Now we have to brace ourselves for another month of "OMG whyd you move me ? I lost my obviously not-so-unique name! You should continue to pay for and maintain an entire server just for me and those other 5 people I run into now and then"

 

Did i know server closures were coming? Sure. Did i know they were going to not allow transfers to different servers first? No. Personally i didn't move my characters on my old server becuase i had rerolled on JC before server transfers were up and sadly JC was not a destination server for me so why move them? All would happen is I would lose my name(which i had reserved on JC long ago in the vain hope that BW would let me consolidate) so I waited on the ability to transfer to the server of my choice. Now it seems that instead of BW simply allowing us to pick our server before they close servers they are just going to force my characters to move and not only lose thier names but still wouldn't get played becuase i am on JC not Ordo.

 

But i suppose it doesn't matter at this point. 11 days left.

[Graydon]

It's the most we've said so far, and we feel it's important to let everyone know that we understand the topic is important by acknowledging your posts. Even if we don't have detailed information yet, it can help for us to share the statements we've made. When we have new information, we'll definitely share it, and in the meantime it never hurts to let players know we're reading their concerns and feedback.

 

Didn't know you guys had a sense of humor or just full of it.

 

There are mutiltple threads regarding Paid Transfers, Consolidating Characters, etc, from players wishing to resolve the mess that Bioware created. These posts have thousands of views and new ones are being made each day.

 

Have not seen a single "B' post in any of them.

[Roalmo]

Just a guess, but I'm thinking there won't be paid transfers until they have the forced mergers and server closings.

 

Yep.

 

Unfortunately I see the following happening:

 

1. Transfer to the current BW selected destination servers will be mandatory.

 

2. There will be no character slot expansion, until AFTER the mandatory transfers.

 

3. They will transfer characters for you, starting from top to bottom, you will have no choice.

 

4. When your destination servers slots are full: your toons left on the origin server will be deleted, or tossed into limbo so you can never recover them(i.e. you have to transfer them to the current BW designated servers, if they ever let you).

 

All I did was pick the worst possible scenario, so it does fit with most of their handling of the game.

[ticklefist]

Never in a million trillion years thought I'd say this but...

 

I think I'd like to go to an RP server.

[testszag]

Yep.

 

Unfortunately I see the following happening:

 

1. Transfer to the current BW selected destination servers will be mandatory.

 

2. There will be no character slot expansion, until AFTER the mandatory transfers.

 

3. They will transfer characters for you, starting from top to bottom, you will have no choice.

 

4. When your destination servers slots are full: your toons left on the origin server will be deleted, or tossed into limbo so you can never recover them(i.e. you have to transfer them to the current BW designated servers, if they ever let you).

 

All I did was pick the worst possible scenario, so it does fit with most of their handling of the game.

 

they already said that no characters will be deleted.

 

edit:

here it is

 

Hi folks,

 

Just wanted to hop on here to let you all know that at no point will we be deleting your characters later this summer when we automatically move any remaining characters from origin servers onto designated destination servers. More details about how this will work out will be forthcoming, but I can assure you that automatic character deletion is not going to happen for this upcoming move.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

from here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=502965&page=4

Edited July 14, 2012 by testszag

[Roalmo]

they already said that no characters will be deleted.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=502965&page=4

 

So we got 1 answer...

 

But, limbo is still an option..