Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[TheronFett]

So all these better players that solo you on your PT all the time... first are you saying your bad and there is this army of better players and second does this regular occurence of better players soloing you happen from every other advanced class or is just specific classes?

 

Just trying to show you that you are being hard on yourself and all these people are not so much better than you it's probobly some classes are just a counter to your PT when it's solo.

 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant that it's not about classes. I've never experienced a single class that consistently gave me problems that I would slap the OP label on.

 

I think this part right here is what people are missing.

 

Everyone seems to believe their class should be able to take anyone, anywhere, any time, under any circumstances. From my experience playing different classes, the only two classes in the game capable of this are annihilation marauders, and tank-assassins.

 

People just need to accept that there are variables at all times - RNG, adrenal buffs, outside dps/heals you didn't see, player skill, and more.

 

Rakore is 100% correct.

 

I'm a damn good player, and can do well regardless of which of my toons I'm playing. But there are a lot of players who are better than me, and I accept that. It's not that they're OP, and I don't come to the forums to whine about how I just got my jock strap stolen. Rakore is one of those players who's better than me, and I'll openly admit it. Many Marauders are simpletons who rolled the class because A) 2 sabers looks cool or B) it's FOTM. Rakore is one of the few who plays his class exceptionally well and sends me to respawn regularly. There are times when I get the best of him, but not often.

 

Point being, all this QQ thrown around on these boards daily is completely unwarranted. For the most part, the classes are balanced against each other when all ACs are considered. Some are designed for 1vs1, others as support or utility. PvP in SWTOR is a team sport, and the sooner you people accept that and move forward, the better off you'll be.

[Requitas]

I think the problem is that most people are continuing to look at each class either in a vacuum or comparatively in 1v1 contexts. In that sense, yes, Assault VG's/Pyro PT's are fine. The problem however, which we are just now starting to see in rated play, and which will become much more prevalent when all of the top competitive teams catch on, is that the combined burst of stacked Assault VG's/Pyro PT's is so powerful that any utility lost by stacking them is more than made up for by the combined burst. We can sit here and theorycraft all of these wonderful scenarios where you can taunt one, CC the other, do this, do that, and dance the tango to shut them down, but the simple fact of the matter is that teams that are currently stacking this class are able to dispatch targets so quickly when focusing that there is not much that can be done about it. I've seen it firsthand. My only losses in rated thus far are to the team on Jung Ma that is running 4 Powertechs.

 

As it stands, the problem is NOT the class on an individual level in direct comparison to other classes in 1v1 contexts. The problem is that the burst is so high that when stacked it becomes nigh unstoppable.

[SajPl]

The problem here is that anyone who is even partly competent on any other class can excel wearing a VG/PT. The skill curve to effectively using the class is very low. Contrast that for example with how much management it takes to be effective on a sentinel/maurader and you get what we are seeing now. Everyone and their mom's are rolling up vg/pt because they are ridiculously easy to be effective with. Everyone likes to be effective. That is why they need to be adjusted. Not nerfed out of their niche role, but adjusted to make playing them require more skill and attention so that people stop rolling a PT to feel good about their wz experience.

 

Yes being a 1 button wonder-smash for 6k is so hard ...

[Zorcha]

Yes being a 1 button wonder-smash for 6k is so hard ...

 

Sorry i didnt realise 1 6k smash every 12 secs was better than the 6k 5k 4k 6k and 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k ticks at same time dots

[Serrowherrow]

Sorry i didnt realise 1 6k smash every 12 secs was better than the 6k 5k 4k 6k and 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k ticks at same time dots

 

If you're getting railshot for 6k, you may wish to consider pvping with your clothes on.

 

It's only funny the first time.

[Zorcha]

If you're getting railshot for 6k, you may wish to consider pvping with your clothes on.

 

It's only funny the first time.

 

Nope sorry, my recruit PT is hitting 4k railshots and 600 combustibles, and my friends WH PT is hitting 6k railshots for fun alongside 5k thermals and 1k combustible dots. He did get an 8.7k Thermal the other day but obviously against someone in PvE gear or something.

He very rarely pulls less than 700k a game. Your server is obviously lacking geared PT's so maybe you should look at the sub 50 warzone for a day and see them in there pulling 2x everyone elses dps.

 

The excuse of "kill them and they wont do that much damage" doesnt cut it im afraid. That is no counter to overpoweredness. I dont hear you telling people to focus on sorcs/sins/mercs etc... why? Because theyre not overpowered.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Zorcha

[xxATRAINxx]

As a pyro powertech I don't think we should get a direct damage nerf, however, I do feel as though something should be done to make it harder to attain the current burst levels. I currently pvp with PT pyro, a Merc pyro, a sniper and a marauder at 50, a jugg in the 40s and an assassin in the 30s. I also just started pvping with a scoundrel, so I feel I have a pretty good idea as to what the various classes offer. Compared to the other classes PT pyro's are just too easy to attain high damage levels, turning a bad player into an average player, and average player into a pretty damn good one and a good player into a beast. In my opinion, none of the classes I've played are particularly complicated, but a three fingered idiot could keep one finger on w, one on flame burst and one on railshot and do pretty decent damage. I think bw should start by adding a bit of complexity to the rotation, thereby getting rid of the FOTMers but still allowing talented pvpers to perform at top levels.

[TheGreatFrosty]

I have 4 level 50's, and another currently @ 47. All leveled through PvP. None of them are difficult to play. Your "skill" argument is completely baseless, as no class in this came requires any more skill than another. SWTOR is not a challenging game. It was designed so that the average WoW 14 year old could play it. Do not delude yourself into thinking that just because you rolled a melee class that you are somehow above the fold or that you have a higher level of so-called skill.

 

 

Clearly, you are unable to counter DPS Powertechs. I both play one (Vanguard version) and play against them on my other characters. They are not overpowered. I have had my butt kicked by every class, and I'm quite certain, including the one that you play. Yes, I will destroy people. Yes, I can 3vs1 and come out unscathed. Yes, I can put up 500k damage with 0 deaths. But here's the kicker: I can also be completely useless versus better players.

 

I hate to break this to you, but at some point, reality needs to set in. You're a bad. It's not that the other guy is overpowered or that your class is weak. It's you.

 

Stop getting excited about the opportunity to dismiss my arguments because of "skill", you've consistently tried to do it throughout these threads.

 

I'm a big reader of Shakespeare, ever heard the line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". My guess would be that you are a bad player who found out that he could get some kills, and do some easy damage with the powertech. So your other level 50s took a backseat, and now you represent one of the many powertech OP spec defenders who simply wish to keep their place at the top.

 

And just because every class can beat you on your PT doesn't make the class not OP, it simply speaks about you as a player or the skill level of the player you are fighting.

Edited June 30, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[Twor]

Stop getting excited about the opportunity to dismiss my arguments because of "skill", you've consistently tried to do it throughout these threads.

 

I'm a big reader of Shakespeare, ever heard the line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". My guess would be that you are a bad player who found out that he could get some kills, and do some easy damage with the powertech. So your other level 50s took a backseat, and now you represent one of the many powertech OP spec defenders who simply wish to keep their place at the top.

 

And just because every class can beat you on your PT doesn't make the class not OP, it simply speaks about you as a player or the skill level of the player you are fighting.

 

And after your last posts I thought you were trying for arguments and discussions... Now you are back to ranting and personal attacks.

 

I also find the skill argument amazing, for the high skilled marauder who brought it up, I use 23 keybinds on my vanguard. And as someone posted in thise thread before, the average offensive rotation is 5-8 keys.

 

Sorry thats completely normal for an amount of attacks used. Try to count what you are using on your marauder and you will be surprised... On the contrary, you have more get away tools and last minute resorts which make it easier for you.

If you manage to hit the right button (as you seem to think that this involves a high skill cap).

 

I am sure you have to track an internal CD in your head as well (no CD counter for the ICD of the rs reset). That is not rocket science, but if you wish to take the optimum out of you pyro you don't just spam ip and use stockstrike whenever they are ready, as you need them to reset your ICD and yes, you can proc the ICD reset while the normal CD is not running, wasting it completely.

Nope, it is not difficult. But no class is if you can hit several buttons.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Twor

[skotish]

they are OP

[Serrowherrow]

Stop getting excited about the opportunity to dismiss my arguments because of "skill", you've consistently tried to do it throughout these threads.

 

I'm a big reader of Shakespeare, ever heard the line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". My guess would be that I am a bad player who simply is unable to counter powertechs, and rather then learn how they work and how best to effectively counter them I would prefer to crusade for nerfs on the forums so I can keep my place at the top.

And just because every class can beat you on your PT doesn't make the class not OP, it simply means the class is balanced due to the fact that it can not kill everyone.

 

Fixed that for ya.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Fixed that for ya.

 

You do realise that classes you sport on your sig are:

 

Powertech

Marauder

Shadow.

 

I don't think I need to say anything more about your motif or ability to contribute to this discussion.

[Serrowherrow]

You do realise that classes you sport on your sig are:

 

Powertech

Marauder

Shadow.

 

I don't think I need to say anything more about your motif or ability to contribute to this discussion.

 

You're a funny one.

 

The three characters I place in my signature are the ones I actively play, and are often cycled through my large pile of alts. If it assists my so called 'motif' then I do indeed have a mercenary, and a sniper. I play five out of the eight classes in this game, but I suppose I'm not allowed to contribute to any discussion unless I made the game.

 

Hell, I made my marauder when they were supposed to be the most underpowered DPS in the game, guilds turned me away because of how 'sickeningly underpowered' Marauder DPS was. I shrugged my shoulders and kept doing 700k+ a match.

 

So if you're totally incapable of formulating any reply based on what I say, and instead opt for personal attacks that have zero relevance towards the discussion, I don't think I need to say anything more about your motif or ability to contribute to this discussion.

[TheGreatFrosty]

And after your last posts I thought you were trying for arguments and discussions... Now you are back to ranting and personal attacks.

 

I also find the skill argument amazing, for the high skilled marauder who brought it up, I use 23 keybinds on my vanguard. And as someone posted in thise thread before, the average offensive rotation is 5-8 keys.

 

Sorry thats completely normal for an amount of attacks used. Try to count what you are using on your marauder and you will be surprised... On the contrary, you have more get away tools and last minute resorts which make it easier for you.

If you manage to hit the right button (as you seem to think that this involves a high skill cap).

 

I am sure you have to track an internal CD in your head as well (no CD counter for the ICD of the rs reset). That is not rocket science, but if you wish to take the optimum out of you pyro you don't just spam ip and use stockstrike whenever they are ready, as you need them to reset your ICD and yes, you can proc the ICD reset while the normal CD is not running, wasting it completely.

Nope, it is not difficult. But no class is if you can hit several buttons.

 

I in no way see how responding to an aggressive poster, who has consistently tried to berate me on a personal level, derails the topic from a discussion. It simply provides an observation as to the nature of the typical defenders, or those who will be to defiant to the end of the 'balanced' nature of their class.

 

Put it this way, every single class that has ever been nerfed has had the the respectable portion of its players ardently defending it, dismissing the complaints of others as a 'skill' issue. It doesn't just happen, and it isn't unique to this case with powertechs. People like to believe they are on a higher skill level, there will even be those who surmise simply that powertech population consists of higher skilled players, and hence will use that to explain away the strictly average powertechs topping DPS charts.

 

It matters little how many buttons you personally use, or how many hotkeys/macros you've managed to come up with. What matters is what Powertechs can get away with, a very basic and simplified rotation that results in enormous damage and score topping numbers. It makes me laugh that people blissfully ignore the correlation between powertechs, rated premades (which largely consist of them) and the average metric of a powertech.

 

It is my hope that Bioware will simply go by their metrics. For it surely hasn't escaped their attention the massive volumes of newly trained powertechs and the average damage in proportion to other classes.

 

And just a last bit of thought. Think the issue with PTs akin to the issue everyone thought existed (and indeed did to an extent) with sages and commandos. They could be played by a poor player, spamming a very simple rotation, and still come up with topping numbers.

Edited June 30, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[TheGreatFrosty]

You're a funny one.

 

The three characters I place in my signature are the ones I actively play, and are often cycled through my large pile of alts. If it assists my so called 'motif' then I do indeed have a mercenary, and a sniper. I play five out of the eight classes in this game, but I suppose I'm not allowed to contribute to any discussion unless I made the game.

 

Hell, I made my marauder when they were supposed to be the most underpowered DPS in the game, guilds turned me away because of how 'sickeningly underpowered' Marauder DPS was. I shrugged my shoulders and kept doing 700k+ a match.

 

So if you're totally incapable of formulating any reply based on what I say, and instead opt for personal attacks that have zero relevance towards the discussion, I don't think I need to say anything more about your motif or ability to contribute to this discussion.

 

You didn't post a reply. You posted a personal attack with words changed from my post to bring to question the validity of my complaints. Admittedly my own took the form of an attack, against a guy who had continuously berated my posts. It was against him, not for you to take on your shoulders.

 

The hypocrisy here is... too much.

[Sneakypepper]

Powertech here. Im OP. LIke alot. Im tank spec, so i dont see too many 5k+ hits, but i see lots and lots of 2-4k instant flame burst and rs rp crits. Im SO damn maneuverable ALL of my damage can be done while moving, when i get 2or3 teamed ill just pop my shield and charge to another enemy that is less tough. I can pull you in the fire, ALOT. I can leap into your face FREQUENTLY, which is interrupt #1, then Ill punch you in the face for 2-4k, and stun you for my 4 sec CC, put a timer missile on you, light you on fire for 1500, interrupt what you were casting with quell...(healers) that 2 interrupts, then cybertech nade, Interrupt 3, then quell again,...... from there its a rp, fb orgy on ur face while i wait for rs cooldowns and interrupt you every 6 seconds.

I have some screen shots with my guild in 4 man premades where i had a pocket healer with my guard on him, and went 70-80 and 0...

 

Its fun but seems really unfair to other players....

When i play my sorc, things dont go nearly so well....

nor with my merc...

its broken....

fix it or not.. but nerd rage is growing...

Idea.....Flame burst on 4 second cooldown...?

Edited June 30, 2012 by Sneakypepper

[Serrowherrow]

You didn't post a reply. You posted a personal attack with words changed from my post to bring to question the validity of my complaints. Admittedly my own took the form of an attack, against a guy who had continuously berated my posts. It was against him, not for you to take on your shoulders.

 

The hypocrisy here is... too much.

 

The whole reason I did so was because you continued to ignore whatever logical fronts we presented to you.

 

So, I'll propose this.

 

Let's start from the beginning. What would you like to see changed? What mechanics in particular do you have issues with? I've met a surprising number of players who are unfamiliar with Pyrotech mechanics and propose changes that would destroy the class in ways that would make an arsenal merc look better for ranked composition.

 

Idea.....Flame burst on 4 second cooldown...?

 

This is an example of one such idea.

 

That kind of cooldown would affect not only pyro, but AP as well. That kind of nerf sweeps across every single spec and limits the DPS output of powertechs regardless of what build they choose - there's no cooldown on flameburst, but spamming it 4-5 times means you can only auto-attack for 10-15 seconds. Flame burst doesn't seem like the problem.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Serrowherrow

[TheGreatFrosty]

The whole reason I did so was because you continued to ignore whatever logical fronts we presented to you.

 

So, I'll propose this.

 

Let's start from the beginning. What would you like to see changed? What mechanics in particular do you have issues with? I've met a surprising number of players who are unfamiliar with Pyrotech mechanics and propose changes that would destroy the class in ways that would make an arsenal merc look better for ranked composition.

 

 

 

This is an example of one such idea.

 

That kind of cooldown would affect not only pyro, but AP as well. That kind of nerf sweeps across every single spec and limits the DPS output of powertechs regardless of what build they choose - there's no cooldown on flameburst, but spamming it 4-5 times means you can only auto-attack for 10-15 seconds. Flame burst doesn't seem like the problem.

 

Excuse me? Not a single logical argument had been presented. My OP sought out to dismiss the obvious reactions to this type of thread, particularly the "we're 'squishy'" rubbish. So because I outlined that at the beginning, I hasn't willing to entertain the idea that powertechs are more squishy than any other DPS (the opposite is my opinion).

 

To be absolutely 100% blunt with you, it is not my job but Bioware's to be in a position to say what needs to be done. No I don't want their PVE capability to be destroyed, but I want their PVP to be balanced. Neither you or I is experienced enough as a game developer (I'm assuming) to realistically assess and pinpoint exactly what can be done to achieve that.

 

My intent is to the label the severity of the issue from the eyes of an avid PVPer, as has become the intent of many posters on these boards. And before you question what that means, I've PVPed on MMOs since Ultima Online in 1998 and on pretty much every MMO since. I don't like to be one of those guys who proclaim their own 'greatness' on a forum, but I'm far from being a 'bad' player.

 

The only thing I could suggest, which I have suggested before, is reshift the position of some of the armour penetration. Over 90% on railshot is far too high, realistically it must be reduced to 40-50% and railshot would still be a high hitting move, just lack the absolute "death blow" characteristic it does now.

Edited June 30, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[SajPl]

Powertech here. Im OP. LIke alot. Im tank spec, so i dont see too many 5k+ hits, but i see lots and lots of 2-4k instant flame burst and rs rp crits. Im SO damn maneuverable ALL of my damage can be done while moving, when i get 2or3 teamed ill just pop my shield and charge to another enemy that is less tough. I can pull you in the fire, ALOT. I can leap into your face FREQUENTLY, which is interrupt #1, then Ill punch you in the face for 2-4k, and stun you for my 4 sec CC, put a timer missile on you, light you on fire for 1500, interrupt what you were casting with quell...(healers) that 2 interrupts, then cybertech nade, Interrupt 3, then quell again,...... from there its a rp, fb orgy on ur face while i wait for rs cooldowns and interrupt you every 6 seconds.

I have some screen shots with my guild in 4 man premades where i had a pocket healer with my guard on him, and went 70-80 and 0...

 

Its fun but seems really unfair to other players....

When i play my sorc, things dont go nearly so well....

nor with my merc...

its broken....

fix it or not.. but nerd rage is growing...

Idea.....Flame burst on 4 second cooldown...?

 

There is no way a tank specced powertech will hit for 3k so please stop lygin and please show me a tank class in this game that does not have instant casts. Besides Flame burst in tank spec hits for 800 so if people are dying to it, you must be facing some terribad opponents.

[Kayse]

I know exactly how you feel. I've played many classes and my main is a sentinel. Even with all of our defensive CD's if a powertech is geared up enough he still doesnt even need to try. I was in a game earlier with a vanguard in just BM gear who spammed nothing but Ion pulse and did 400k+... Those who actually do their rotation do just..too much, and I don t even need to say how grossly OP they are when they make even Gunslingers/Sentinels DPS look like nothing when they are almost 3-5 hitting everything that moves, anywhere on the map it seems.

 

And yeah, Powertechs have been the FOTM for the past 2 months it seems, im seeing more snipers now as well. I was in a few premades over at the Ebon Hawk with over 6/8 Powertechs each game, even in pugs there is almost always at least 3-4 powertechs, or now snipers. Like you said though snipers can b countered..powertechs? Rail shot, nuff said..Its one thing to focus down one powertech, focusing down all of them when half the team composes of them simply is not going to happen.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Kayse

[Winkywinky]

I know exactly how you feel. I've played many classes and my main is a sentinel. Even with all of our defensive CD's if a powertech is geared up enough he still doesnt even need to try. I was in a game earlier with a vanguard in just BM gear who spammed nothing but Ion pulse and did 400k+... Those who actually do hteir rotation do just..too much, and I don teven need to say how groosly OP they are when they make even Gunslingers/Sentinels DPS look like nothing when they are almost 3-5 hitting everything that moves, anywhere on the map it seems.

 

And yeah, Powertechs have been the FOTM for the past 2 months it seems, im seeing more snipers now as well. I was in a few premades over at the Ebon Hawk with over 6/8 Powertechs each game, even in pugs there is almost always at least 3-4 powertechs, or now snipers. Like you said though snipers cant b countered..powertechs? Rail shot, nuff said..

 

hey man...its YOU not the PT.....no sent/mara should lose to a PT/Van of equal gear...cooldowns up its a win...

 

it really is YOU...sorry

[Kayse]

hey man...its YOU not the PT.....no sent/mara should lose to a PT/Van of equal gear...cooldowns up its a win...

 

it really is YOU...sorry

 

I lol'd.

 

I can kill powertechs on a Sentinel. The only reason I can though is because of all my CD's. Every other class, and i have checked, has almost no way of even comparing against powertechs or beating them. If my CD's are down, which they probably are, there is almost no way a Sentinel can beat a powertech unless you somehow win a DPS race with the biggest bursting class somehow.

 

So its not me, its the class The only two that can even barely stand toe to toe to them is Sentinels or Gunslingers, maybe a tankassin. Sents only if their CD's are up, Gunslingers only if they get the jump and don't get LoS'd. Everyone else is just cannon fodder. I am also guessing you probably play a pyro, so I'm not even going to try to argue with you over this. The class will have its nerf in time im sure

Edited June 30, 2012 by Kayse

[Vaipyr]

Cannot take this thread seriously anymore since someone tried to say a "TANK" spec'd PT was OP....

 

Seriously? We're delving that far into absurdity now?

[FeralPug]

I was in a game earlier with a vanguard in just BM gear who spammed nothing but Ion pulse and did 400k+...

 

This statement demonstrates such an utter lack of knowledge of how the spec works, that I don't even know where to begin.

 

Stop exaggerating. Learn the class. Learn to counter. Stop spreading rumours that only make you sound like a baddie.

 

To the OP: it sounds like you're a sorc. Basically, you're paper to the pyro's scissors. Paper calling for scissors nerf. I lol'ed.

 

We just had a 1v1 server-wide tourney on the Ebon Hawk. Guess which advanced class didn't even make it to the semi-finals?

 

L2P.

[Winkywinky]

I lol'd.

 

I can kill powertechs on a Sentinel. The only reason I can though is because of all my CD's. Every other class, and i have checked, has almost no way of even comparing against powertechs or beating them.

 

So its not me, its the class The only two that can even barely stand toe to toe to them is Sentinels or Gunslingers, maybe a tankassin. Everyone else is just cannon fodder. I am also guessing you probably play a pyro, so I'm not even going to try to argue with you over this. The class will have its nerf in time im sure

 

so were talking about fights now where you have no CD's and the PT has them all?...hmm ok... yea lets nerf them