TKMaster Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 It's normally what happens when group finders are added. You have to make the group runs easier because you have to play to the lowest common denominator. If tanking is tough, people complain that the tanks sucks and then less tanks queue up. Someone gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Someone gets it. This would be true, if the premise were also true, but since the premise has been proven to be untrue, then this is untrue. Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This is a fallacy. The last time I logged into WoW, Call to Arms (you know, the tank bribe) was on...Tank. As it had been pretty much all day, every day, since the CTA inception. This is after they made tanking ezmode. This is after they put in the bribes. This is after they put in the DS 5-mans, which are short and easy, and dropped good gear. EZmode tanking does not lead to more tanks in the queue because it does not address the root problem - tanking is a thankless job, healing is a thankless responsibility, and dps is a faultless blamefest. This change should not go live - ever. If more threat is needed later, it can be added via a scalable system, as others have mentioned. That said, all tanks appear to be taking a dps nerf, so perhaps this band-aid is temporarily needed. Temporarily. I would rather they just realize that tank damage doesn't need to be nerfed... By the way...you don't miss Enrage timers because your dps had to wait 5 seconds. You miss Enrage timers because your dps haven't learned to maximize the fight yet. End of story. Riôt Actually it did help a lot with the que times in LFG. Even if you do not want to admit it. Blizzard knows it did and that is all that counts. Not the opinions of some players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This threat boost is primarily to improve aoe tanking, because it is extremely resource intensive to do it. Trying to pick up a lose mob with both taunts down is damn near impossible too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyboy Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Holding threat is my biggest problem as a PT Tank, as it stands it's way too easy for a DPS to grab agro from me, so any boost to my threat is greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) This would be true, if the premise were also true, but since the premise has been proven to be untrue, then this is untrue. Riôt The premise is absolutely true. Just because other games offer additional benefits for tanks to queue up doesn't mean they didn't add the higher threat modifier to make the group finder easier on tanks. The fact is, tanks get screamed at for wipes more than anyone else. I always tanked with my paladin in WOW up until the Zandalari heroics. Which were so over tuned people were constantly wiping and finger pointing. I love tanking, but not if everyone I group with expects me to be some sort of super man and pull aggro off of them when they just nuked the entire area before I charged in. It's not even worth it at that point. With all of the AOEs in TOR, can you imagine if you get a new DPS that decides to MV or DFA a group of strongs/champs before the tank attacks? Or even as the tank attacks? With this thread modifier, the tank should be able to keep aggro even with DPS blowing their load. Will it make the game easier? Yeah. But, it will also make the group finder more successful. People that don't want to wait for a group by manually searching are normally the ones that don't like wiping more than once as well. Edited June 21, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arestesian Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 EZmode tanking does not lead to more tanks in the queue because it does not address the root problem - tanking is a thankless job, healing is a thankless responsibility, and dps is a faultless blamefest. Riôt There's a frighteningly large amount of truth there. Not sure on the tanking side in TOR, but coming from the healing side it may just come down to being picky about who's in the group. Though I have been accused of being excessively old school before in my approach to the groups, I'm used to the tank being the one that sets pace for the group, and if the dps needs to throttle back, they ease back. If they don't bad things happen, like the healer dropping them if it comes down to healing them or someone who is not throwing too much threat. I will admit I'm not that familiar with all of the bosses so I can't say one way or another if the enrage timer is a deal breaker when it comes to being able to expect dps to back off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entropicus Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Yes, lets make tanks even harder to find, theyll already be a lot less Sins with the upcoming nerfbat. And theyll be the least desired statistically as the changes stand. Edited June 21, 2012 by Parali spam -ascii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Yeah it's fun for me and the tank where I have to play softy for the few 15-20 seconds while he builds threat so I don't pull off of him as my marauder. My damage scales much faster than his with gear, meaning my threat generation scales faster than his does. And let's not even comment on how bad threat generation is for AoE... the best tactic we have for AoE'ing group is to have the AoE'rs stand on the tanks so the mobs don't go running off... That's terrible. After a few taunts, the tanks are so far ahead on threat, but it's always the first several moments... and when you're dealing with Enrage Timers you can't afford to stand there and do nothing. Stormcaller is a perfect example of this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psi_overtake Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) this is a fair point, because tanks get more reudciton as their gear goes up, not more damage and not more threat, at least not anywhere near as much. Fair point, in which case, another means should be found, like making tank threat scale with Endurance partially, so at least, tanks can generate roughly the same amount of threat when eveyrone is geared in campaign/blackhole as they can when eveyrone is geared in Tionese...otherwise x amount of gear later, you'd have to buff tank threat again, and that will just mess up the game for those at a lower level or entry level 50, becuase tanking becomes far too triival, and less fun. So i would propose an alternative means of threat scaling with tank gear than an arbitary 33-50% increase Haha, I started writing something up and realized how stupid it sounded. I have to disagree that DPS threat scaling higher and higher will be too much for the tank. In reality, this should never be the case, as the DPS should never go above 25% of the maximum potential threat as long as s/he uses his/her threat-reducing ability. In an ideal tank'n'spank, this would happen: 1) Tank pulls. 2) After 5 seconds, Tank has aggro and DPS reaches the point of pulling aggro. 3) Tank taunts and gains an even bigger lead, and DPS drops aggro to reduce it by 75%. 4) DPS dropps aggro at every opportunity. Here is a great read about aggro mechanics: http://mmo-mechanics.com/news.php?article=kors-laboratory-threat From its current structure, I don't think that the DPS will ever gain an insurmountable lead because it can always be kept very low as long as the DPS is competant enough to use the aggro drop every time. As one poster said, with LFG coming out, not every DPS is going to be a knowledgeable forum-poster, which is why they're probably making these changes. So yes, they're dumbing it down, but if your DPS guildies were smart, it was already dumbingly easy to begin with for tank'n'spank. They've done both fun and aggrivating things with threat. Looking forward to more! Edited June 21, 2012 by psi_overtake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyer Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 As an off-tank Shadow, I'm looking forward to the increase. Whenever our group has something mezzed, my only option for pulling trash and ads is basically to run around tagging them all with my lightsaber. It's annoying. Main tanking works a decent bit better, though, as-is. Bear in mind that they're not just making things easymode. The smart AoE for us Shadows, for example, gives us a way to generate AoE threat without breaking mez. At the present, the Shadow only has single target threat generation if anything's mezz'd. And while BW is finally giving us that ability, they are reducing our shield generation bonus by a ton (100%, if I recall) and cutting the health regeneration dealt by our pebble storm. To me, it's more like they are providing more varieties of ways to deal with encounters, rather than just making things easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 The premise is absolutely true. Just because other games offer additional benefits for tanks to queue up doesn't mean they didn't add the higher threat modifier to make the group finder easier on tanks. The fact is, tanks get screamed at for wipes more than anyone else. I always tanked with my paladin in WOW up until the Zandalari heroics. Which were so over tuned people were constantly wiping and finger pointing. I love tanking, but not if everyone I group with expects me to be some sort of super man and pull aggro off of them when they just nuked the entire area before I charged in. It's not even worth it at that point. With all of the AOEs in TOR, can you imagine if you get a new DPS that decides to MV or DFA a group of strongs/champs before the tank attacks? Or even as the tank attacks? With this thread modifier, the tank should be able to keep aggro even with DPS blowing their load. Will it make the game easier? Yeah. But, it will also make the group finder more successful. People that don't want to wait for a group by manually searching are normally the ones that don't like wiping more than once as well. I'm sorry, it's not new dps that have these problems. It's the ones that should know better, that have these problems. It's these same people, who are.not. going to suddenly start tanking en masse just because it's now EZmode. They aren't, because they have been that guy, they *are* that guy, and they don't want to have to deal with the rest of *those guys* from the tanking side of the table. This has been proven over years, with very large sample sizes. There is fact, and there is your (and Valkirus') opinion. Can I imagine?: The stupid Bounty Hunter - yes, and I deal with them. The stupid Sorcerer - yes, and I deal with them. The stupid Assassin - yes, and I deal with them. The stupid Rage Juggernaut - yes, and I deal with them. The bad healer - yes, and I teach them. I don't have to imagine anything. I have dealt with every manner of bad dps that exist in this game, as well as in previous games. The situation is the same, my friend, it's just the scenery that changes. This isn't even the real problem, though - what they should be doing, is taking a page out of the Dragon Soul 5-man book. Flashpoints of decent difficulty, that are short, instead of over an hour long. This, would be a more effective means of adding tanks to the queue. Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSLeMire Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Yeah on the PTS right now my Guardian tank is ezmode hardcore. Holding threat is mindless. Even AOE threat (and I have crazy tactics tricks and workarounds to keep my AOE threat up on live) is ez bigtime.... take it down a notch please Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 To me, it's more like they are providing more varieties of ways to deal with encounters, rather than just making things easy. I agree with giving tanks more AoE abilities (those that didnt have many) ... I even understand the Sin/Shadow nerf (though its currently too much IMO) ... but how exactly are they providing more variety? Now instead of strategizing pulls and figuring out how to not break stuns using your abilities and/or environment ... you simply run in and AoE everything dead center. DPS dont have to worry about anything either, youre holding more aggro than ever! You'd have to be playing with your eyes closed or something to mess anything up. So what new variety is there exactly? They may as well just let us spam the mass aoe taunt and call it a day ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzuAK Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Yeah it's fun for me and the tank where I have to play softy for the few 15-20 seconds while he builds threat so I don't pull off of him as my marauder. My damage scales much faster than his with gear, meaning my threat generation scales faster than his does. As a sentinel I am sort of dreading getting into campaign gear because of this. I'm in rakata/BH gear and good at managing my aggro, but if I'm not guarded on boss fights then there are issues. For our lesser geared tanks even guard doesn't help. I'm a bit torn on the blanket threat buff. On the one hand a blanket 100% increase will is a quick fix and will make it easier to beat the enrage timers, but on the other there is little security in a threat boost that does not scale with gear progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) EZmode tanking does not lead to more tanks in the queue because it does not address the root problem - tanking is a thankless job, healing is a thankless responsibility, and dps is a faultless blamefest. So. What would address the root problem? Should there be a rule enforced in the LFG in which people playing Heal and Tank roles need to be thanked? Maybe they should get something extra just for gracing people with their presence in the LFG? The idea that tanking is so profoundly more difficult than DPS, or that healing is profoundly more difficult than DPS, is one shared mostly by people that only play those roles regularly. It simply isn't true. Nobody should have to pat you on the back or tell you "Thanks, buddy!" for performing a role that you apparently enjoy (otherwise you wouldn't be tanking, or healing, right?) in a video game. Having tanked, healed, and dealt damage across a variety of MMOs I can say that I have never subscribed to the idea that tanks and healers get more flak than anyone else does for making a mistake. It's a myth. Edited June 21, 2012 by Celebrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 the only time (TANK N SPANK) a tank MIGHT lose threat is the first 15-20 sec of a fight. shadow tanks dont have a FORCE JUMP/STORM to the boss like a VG/JG so they MAY suffer the most in that short time(dps force jumping in or rdps not waiting). i agree boosting threat will turn tanking into an idiot class but you have to think why are they doing it? We have 2 AOE threat generations specials, Plus an aoe threat, plus a target based threat grab. I don't have any problem getting threat. Wither/Discharge are fantastic. Not to mention I can stealth, disable run back and pull. Very easy to get aoe and setup to control a mob and run them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evironrage Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Here here. Put the onus on DPS to manage there aggro for once. Keep the dps engaged as opposed to facerolling regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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