Thoughts on GameSpy's Article on SWTOR

[Shingara]

And WoW did it before TOR, and EQ did it before WOW and Ultima did it before EQ.

 

World bosses are nothing new, that was not my point. Dynamic events add an entirely new level of fun to the equation and THAT is new (yes warhammer and rift have some semblance of it as well, but no where near the level that GW2 has, that would be like saying "WoW was not innovative because EQ had quests too" lol)

 

I get the dynamic events, from low to top level you take over towns/areas or loose them via npcs or other faction. you do this from bottom level to top level, then what.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Blackardin]

Of course its conjecture and hyperbole! That's the point! You did exactly the same here:

 

I draw your attention to the part where you refute my hyperbole and conjecture with... hyperbole and conjecture.

 

You're getting all huffy over an article informed by the passions of the author. Where we disagree is that you claim this author has no ground to stand on--that because their opinion is an opinion, whatever they say is patently false and objectionable. You do this here:

 

If you truly believe that, then you must also necessarily believe that everyone in the industry in infallible. I have news for you: The logic of your argument defends universally panned decisions made by game developers simply because "they know better."

 

Well, you're wrong. You don't have to be an expert or legendary in the field in order to have an informed opinion.

 

You made a statement that you intended to pass off as fact. You did so based on the affirmation of a site that, (and here is the difference between opinion and review) passes itself off as a authoritative outlet for gaming information, not someone giving a personal opinion.

 

I argued that point as being false. From that point on it is up to you to prove your contention, not for me to prove my objection (I don't even know how one could do that) ;p. There was no hyperbole in my statement, because I did not state anything. I questioned your statement.

 

If you chose to go round and round and play this silly game of bating, then I'll not waste further time. If you choose to prove your argument, then I'm in. ;p

[CelCawdro]

I disagree

 

I think the genre is at a all time low in creativity and player loyalty BECAUSE its ignored and forgotten the lessons that came before WOW/EQ2.

 

TOR would be 1000 times better then it is if it had looked to EQ and DAoC specifically for many of their MMO elements (the same elements that get attacked daily for being veiwed as missing in TOR).

 

Whats the old line?

 

Those that forget history are bound to make the same mistakes over and over?

 

Something like that but very specific to the current state of MMORPGs (not just TOR, the whole genre) in its current state!

 

Before WOW, a majority of subscribers stayed loyal to their games for 3-4-5 years (not every game, SWG for example lost amazing numbers very fast, but many games also went forward carrying 70%-80% of their subscriber bases over multiple years). TOR has lost over 50% in under 6 months. Rift lost much the same in their run. Clearly the new style isnt working for player retention.

 

Said this in a diff thread and saiy it here

 

Based just off the released numbers, you realize that if (and Im not saying it will, just if it stays the same) TOR continues to lose subscribtions at the rate it has been (and there is no evidence to say it will not, regardless of the positive spin posters "OPINIONS"), DAoC will have a larger 12 month end subscriber population then TOR will after 12 months.

 

Clearly something is wrong.

 

Even if that doesnt come true (we will mostly find out at the 9 month investor update as that will reflect the 6 monthers end (+the free months and everything)), the fact that a game before release that was being billed as a 2-3-5 million subscriber game is even in the same subscriber area as a pre WOW game designed for 300,000-500,000 users initiall (though it did higher numbers then that at its height of popularity) sends a strong message that the NEW WOW (fast, easy, sloppy) way of design isnt working.

 

Sorry you ignore the the history of the genre and I say "this is why the genre is in such a sad state that it is"

 

A vet to me is someone that has LEARNED the different lessons through trial and error over the years. Not someone thats had everything handed to them on a silver platter for last 7 years and cant even comprehend a different and more challenging (and rewarding) style of design, as the WOW and after players can not as they havent been subject to it or seen it work/fail and why.

 

Lets try it comedy style!

If you ever said

"TOR/RIFT/WOW is to hard and grindy.....heres your sign"

 

As for the Opinion part, go read the start of this thread and the following posts

 

Dezzi is offering up his/her opinion

That first guy that ATTACKS the OP and then Dezzi isnt discussing anything, hes telling them they are wrong and he is right because his opinion is somehow fact!

 

Dezzis statement to him about opinion vrs opinion is bang on the money and totally in context of the discussion.

Heck I dont even like GW2 and I can see how Dezzi in the right on this thread vrs a bunch of pro TOR spinners who (mostly, not all) refuse to admit there is anything at all wrong with TOR. There is. There is some stuff thats right but there is a whhole whack that is also wrong in TOR.

 

WoW/EQ2 was the tipping point between the genre catering to an extremely small and niche (yet "hardcore" by today's standards) market and the beginning of the gradual catering to the casuals. That trend is not going to go anywhere anytime soon. Investors don't want to hear the word "hardcore," and no triple A developer is going to aim to develop for a niche market.

 

As much as I love to hearken to the "good old days," and as many times as I've stated, "back in my day..." regarding the genre, I am fully aware that those days are gone. It's unfortunately, but it's the truth. WoW transcended the genre, becoming more of a social phenomenon than it is a game. And other developers, Arena.Net included, are going to try to emulate that success again and again. They fail to realize that WoW succeeded by being so drastically different and accessible relative to games such as UO, EQ, SW:G and, heck, even CoH!

 

Every game that attempts to ape WoW is only going to reach a shadow of its potential, but again, this is endemic to the current state of the genre. Games are not "failing" because they have forgotten the lessons of that which came before WoW, but because they are attempting to cash in on WoW's success. The "good old days" simply aren't relevant.

 

And again, you may as well state, "Well, you just typed this and posted it!" if you're going to point out that someone is stating their opinion to counter another. It goes without saying.

[FeelFlow]

The curse of MMOs - it's always the 'next MMO' that's going to be amazing and when it doesn't have every feature under the sun, suddenly it's a failure.

[Fox_McCloud]

GW2 is lacking an endgame ->

 

GW2 is lacking the traditional end game from out dated MMOs, which I explained above. It is not lacking an end game, it has innovated end game and has a different definition of it, that is in my opinion FAR superior. Time will tell if this is better or not objectively, but in the mean time we cannot simply say it is worse because it is different. The fact is, end game is in GW2, their version of it.

 

Lacking a means to create a balance between players

 

Could not be further from the truth, GW2 actually has the MOST balance between players of any character progression MMO thus far. Again I have to question how much you know about the game if you believe this is not true.

 

Lacking a challenge

 

This again is not true, and I am not attempting to be a contrarian but you are factually wrong. One of the biggest complaints from the public coming out of the beta weekends has been that the game is "too challenging". Players find GW2 quite challenging.

 

For those who have made it high enough level to experience the dungeon content, they can attest that the dungeons in GW2 are as hard as the hardest raids in any traditional MMO thus far, possibly harder. Challenge is abundant in GW2, some people use that as a criticism, but your claim makes absolutely no sense.

 

lacking motivation to improve your character. Once you hit cap the game is basically over...

 

I really am not sure if you are trolling, or just seriously genuinely misinformed. When you hit level cap in GW2, you probably have more options of challenging content open to you then any MMO that has not had years of expansions available to it thus far.

 

Once you hit level cap in SWTOR and other freshly released MMOs, from a pve perspective, you can raid the 1 or 2 raids that are available and run the max level dungeon, all the previous dungeons and other content are now too easy.

 

All of your points are so far off base.

[Muskaan]

Nothing that I have seen so far in GW2 from the last 2 beta weekends stand out as enterprising or pioneering at all.

 

The event driven questing has been implemented way before in Rift. And before Rift in WoW - recall Catalysm release and elemental invasion.

 

Events are fun for a while. But after defending the same outpost from Centaurs for the 20th time, it gets extremely boring.

 

WvWvW in GW2 is a massive zergfest. It's all about which team has more players and money to buy siege weapons. Melee is borderline useless in WvW or any world event. You go in, you get focused, you die. Rinse and repeat.

 

The level scaling of content -- e.g. all players get scaled to level 80 in a WvW is a system that SWTOR has already proved is a failure. Recall all the QQ about lowbies getting wrecked in PvP by level 50 geared players in SWTOR warzones.

 

With way lesser traits and incomplete build and inferior gear, GW2 WvW will end up being which realm has more actual geared level 80s in the fight. In the BWEs no player were max level. So, it was reasonable fair for now. Things will dramtically change when people start hitting max level exactly what happened in SWTOR WZs.

 

The world bosses in GW2 are also exactly like that. I wanted to kill a champion boss in some marsh in BWE2. Nobody was interested. Everyone was busy doing what they wanted and there was 0 interest in fighting the boss. I spent like an hour getting a grp together and then gave up and went about my business.

[Typeslice]

I can't wait for the debate in 6 months, it will be interesting to see where things are at, I agree.

 

However you have to keep in mind that a great many people are already playing GW2. Yes it is not released yet, but the mass public has already played it due to the non-NDA beta weekend events, and it seems that people feel that anet has delivered their promises, it's not just smoke and mirrors.

 

Now admittedly not everything can be tested on those beta weekends (should have another one coming up fairly soon), they also have a large amount of core testers who have experienced the later parts of the game and reported that what the weekenders experienced holds true all the way. Glowing reviews all around.

 

I think his point was that GW2's formula works very well for short term success. It won't truly be tested until they are a more than a few months out.

[Dezzi]

Nothing that I have seen so far in GW2 from the last 2 beta weekends stand out as enterprising or pioneering at all.

 

The event driven questing has been implemented way before in Rift. And before Rift in WoW - recall Catalysm release and elemental invasion.

 

Events are fun for a while. But after defending the same outpost from Centaurs for the 20th time, it gets extremely boring.

 

WvWvW in GW2 is a massive zergfest. It's all about which team has more players and money to buy siege weapons. Melee is borderline useless in WvW or any world event. You go in, you get focused, you die. Rinse and repeat.

 

The level scaling of content -- e.g. all players get scaled to level 80 in a WvW is a system that SWTOR has already proved is a failure. Recall all the QQ about lowbies getting wrecked in PvP by level 50 geared players in SWTOR warzones.

 

With way lesser traits and incomplete build and inferior gear, GW2 WvW will end up being which realm has more actual geared level 80s in the fight. In the BWEs no player were max level. So, it was reasonable fair for now. Things will dramtically change when people start hitting max level exactly what happened in SWTOR WZs.

 

The world bosses in GW2 are also exactly like that. I wanted to kill a champion boss in some marsh in BWE2. Nobody was interested. Everyone was busy doing what they wanted and there was 0 interest in fighting the boss. I spent like an hour getting a grp together and then gave up and went about my business.

 

You're basing your impression of the WvW game on a beta weekend experience? I guess you didn't get the memo that many servers were unbalanced because they added new ones, or that there is absolutely no cohesive community to speak of yet?

 

The WvW bits that I did get to play were fantastic, strategic, and visceral. One of the best open world PvP experiences I've ever had.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Blackardin]

I disagree with just about the entire article and it all started on page 1.

 

Story, in NO WAY has affected gameplay in TOR. The story is just a story and the gameplay would have been the same with or without the voice-over cut scenes. The engine, love it or hate it, drives the gameplay and it was all built around it.

The author makes the classical logical fallacy that "opinion equals fact" and basis his article on that assumption. Its a classic blunder and it happens all. the. time.

 

In his opening statement he states that the VO's subtract from the MMO experience. That is opinion and no other way around it.

 

The rest of his points are all based on opinion and fan-boyism. He makes HUGE conclusions that TOR's end game style is "worse" than GW2 because GW2 uses a new end game style. Its ridiculous to even state that considering one of his points is the "journey" and not the end. One of TOR's main selling points is the JOURNEY! Not the end!

 

This article is just hand picked, fanboy BS as its best. Nowhere in his rambling, incoherent thoughts did he even come close to what could be considered a logical thought. There is nothing wrong with GW2 as far as I know but the article really goes out of its way to trash on a competitor that isn't even directly in the same space as GW2.

 

Well stated reprove, sir. Dove right through the facade and unmasked the intent in its entirety.

[Kharnis]

lolwut?

 

He's saying that you didn't invest in anything. You payed for content. That's all. It's no different than saying, "I rented these movies from Blockbuster, so I invested in the company." No, you didn't.

 

 

And yes, I'm aware of how I just dated myself by mentioning "rented movies" and "Blockbuster" in the same sentence. Or even at all.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Kharnis

[Dezzi]

You made a statement that you intended to pass off as fact. You did so based on the affirmation of a site that, (and here is the difference between opinion and review) passes itself off as a authoritative outlet for gaming information, not someone giving a personal opinion.

 

I argued that point as being false. From that point on it is up to you to prove your contention, not for me to prove my objection (I don't even know how one could do that) ;p. There was no hyperbole in my statement, because I did not state anything. I questioned your statement.

 

If you chose to go round and round and play this silly game of bating, then I'll not waste further time. If you choose to prove your argument, then I'm in. ;p

 

I'm sorry, you don't get to question my opinions (I wasn't aware we needed a disclaimer when posting opinions) with your own opinions and then hop up on a moral high ground.

 

I'm also really sorry if people aren't able to discern the difference between an authoritative objective article and one based on opinion. At no time did the author of the article make the claim that he's speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; it was perfectly clear from the start that he was giving us his opinion.

 

You made it round and round when you called me out for doing exactly what you do.

 

So I guess we're done. Can I get back to having a thoughtful discussion with everyone else, please?

[Muskaan]

You're basing your impression of the WvW game on a beta weekend experience? I guess you didn't get the memo that many servers were unbalanced because they added new ones, or that there is absolutely no cohesive community to speak of yet?

 

The WvW bits that I did get to play were fantastic, strategic, and visceral. One of the best open world PvP experiences I've ever had.

 

You are doing exactly the same -- basing your WvW opinion on a beta weekend. In the end it's just your opinion against mine and neither of us can say who is right.

 

After spending the entire Saturday evening from like 2PM to 11PM doing WvW, I have come to very negative conclusions about it.

[Fox_McCloud]

WoW transcended the genre, becoming more of a social phenomenon than it is a game. And other developers, Arena.Net included, are going to try to emulate that success again and again. They fail to realize that WoW succeeded by being so drastically different and accessible relative to games such as UO, EQ, SW:G and, heck, even CoH!

 

That is EXACTLY what GW2 is doing though, I am not sure why you can't see that.

 

GW2 is vastly different from any other MMO out there, the game play experience IS different. SWTOR is a lot like WoW, but GW2 is not, it plays and feels completely different. If you played it, then you know that is true and not just me making some out landish claim.

 

The mass of players that have played GW2 have said that the game feels new and a breath of fresh air into the stale MMO genre.

 

I would say that Anet has learned the valid lesson that you pointed out above, they are not copying WoW, they are making something new and extremely accessible. Did you know that GW2 is going to be released for console as well?

 

Even non-MMO players are picking up GW2 and enjoying it. This is exactly what happened when WoW came along.

[Dezzi]

He's saying that you didn't invest in anything. You payed for content. That's all. It's no different than saying, "I rented these movies from Blockbuster, so I invested in the company." No, you didn't.

 

 

And yes, I'm aware of how I just dated myself by mentioning "rented movies" and "Blockbuster" in the same sentence. Or even at all.

 

I believe my whole statement was, "I've invested the last 11 months toward playing this game." I apologize if you or he cannot understand that "investment" refers to more than just money.

[Shingara]

That is EXACTLY what GW2 is doing though, I am not sure why you can't see that.

 

GW2 is vastly different from any other MMO out there, the game play experience IS different. SWTOR is a lot like WoW, but GW2 is not, it plays and feels completely different. If you played it, then you know that is true and not just me making some out landish claim.

 

The mass of players that have played GW2 have said that the game feels new and a breath of fresh air into the stale MMO genre.

 

I would say that Anet has learned the valid lesson that you pointed out above, they are not copying WoW, they are making something new and extremely accessible. Did you know that GW2 is going to be released for console as well?

 

Even non-MMO players are picking up GW2 and enjoying it. This is exactly what happened when WoW came along.

 

I dont know about anyone else but that scared the bejesus out of me. last game i saw like that was PSO.

[Dezzi]

You are doing exactly the same -- basing your WvW opinion on a beta weekend. In the end it's just your opinion against mine and neither of us can say who is right.

 

After spending the entire Saturday evening from like 2PM to 11PM doing WvW, I have come to very negative conclusions about it.

 

I was attempting to highlight as such.

[Muskaan]

That is EXACTLY what GW2 is doing though, I am not sure why you can't see that.

 

GW2 is vastly different from any other MMO out there, the game play experience IS different. SWTOR is a lot like WoW, but GW2 is not, it plays and feels completely different. If you played it, then you know that is true and not just me making some out landish claim.

 

The mass of players that have played GW2 have said that the game feels new and a breath of fresh air into the stale MMO genre.

 

I would say that Anet has learned the valid lesson that you pointed out above, they are not copying WoW, they are making something new and extremely accessible. Did you know that GW2 is going to be released for console as well?

 

Even non-MMO players are picking up GW2 and enjoying it. This is exactly what happened when WoW came along.

 

In what ways is GW2 transcending the genre. I played both the beta weekends. So, please feel free to give me concrete examples on what you think GW2 has done to become the next big thing in MMO games.

[NilanVoid]

This is why many are planning to shy away from this game.

 

Well I'm most certainly not!

 

I pre-purchased GW2, participated in the betas, and enjoyed it immensely. Bugs that were reported from a previous beta were fixed. Features players didn't like were changed. ANet listens to their customers. BW still has bugs in the game that were reported since beta and we're now 6 months after release.

 

I'm not much for PvE but GW2 doesn't have kill-steals and actively encourages aiding your "realm-mates".

When you die you'll find a nearby player come and rez you almost instantly. Friends that are higher level than you can join your group via bolster without any penalty. Yes, you can take your level 60 and party with your girlfriend's level 20! Your entire server is working together.

 

PvP wise - although I will admit to enjoying SWTOR warzones - I personally want to attack/defend keeps, towers, cities, enemy objectives. I was dis-illusioned by Ilum to say the least. DAoC used to have 3 faction war but all on one server. GW2 takes this way beyond that with World vs World vs World. If you've never manned a catapult or trebuchet then you don't know what you're missing!

 

I'll stay subbed to SWTOR at least until GW2 releases as there really isn't anything else on the market worth my time or money. Bioware does not have much time to fix SWTOR issues before even more people will leave that will not return.

[Dezzi]

In what ways is GW2 transcending the genre. I played both the beta weekends. So, please feel free to give me concrete examples on what you think GW2 has done to become the next big thing in MMO games.

 

To start, they've gone to great lengths to tear down the iron wall that is "player un-cooperation." That is to say, ArenaNet has developed a game that actively encourages players to cooperate; there's no competing for resource nodes, no competing for mobs or bosses, and no inherent competition between factions that necessarily seals away the two sides behind their own game.

 

That, by itself, is a breath of fresh air into the genre as a whole.

[Fox_McCloud]

I dont know about anyone else but that scared the bejesus out of me. last game i saw like that was PSO.

 

Yep, I agree actually heh.

 

I am not sure if you had a chance to play GW2 from one of the beta weekends yet or not though.

 

Once you play it, you can easily see how it could translate to a console, its very streamlined, look at the ability bar and weapon swapping, a controller has enough buttons to manage that .

 

Grab it for the PC first, wait and see what people say about the console version, if it pans out the same as the fantastic PC version we have, then heck I will buy that one too and I can play relaxed on my couch and big screen TV =)

[CelCawdro]

That is EXACTLY what GW2 is doing though, I am not sure why you can't see that.

 

GW2 is vastly different from any other MMO out there, the game play experience IS different. SWTOR is a lot like WoW, but GW2 is not, it plays and feels completely different. If you played it, then you know that is true and not just me making some out landish claim.

 

The mass of players that have played GW2 have said that the game feels new and a breath of fresh air into the stale MMO genre.

 

I would say that Anet has learned the valid lesson that you pointed out above, they are not copying WoW, they are making something new and extremely accessible. Did you know that GW2 is going to be released for console as well?

 

Even non-MMO players are picking up GW2 and enjoying it. This is exactly what happened when WoW came along.

 

While I still maintain that most of the mechanics that Guild Wars 2's marketing team claims as innovative and revolutionary is still a thinly-veiled iteration of mechanics that are already quite tired (as you state, it will "feel" new for awhile, but once you've seen the iterations, it's going to be same-old, same-old), I have nothing against the game itself.

 

My issue is with this "journalist" creating sensationalist (and cyclical) propaganda, pitting the "Next Big Thing" against "Yesterday's News," creating very narrow and biased (if not entirely misleading) categories for judgement, and making relatively inflammatory comments just to stir things up and get his article more views.

 

I'm getting very disillusioned by the state of gaming journalism.

 

In short: SW:TOR vs. GW2?

 

WINNER: Dark Souls

Edited June 20, 2012 by CelCawdro

[Crash-X]

That is EXACTLY what GW2 is doing though, I am not sure why you can't see that.

 

GW2 is vastly different from any other MMO out there, the game play experience IS different. SWTOR is a lot like WoW, but GW2 is not, it plays and feels completely different. If you played it, then you know that is true and not just me making some out landish claim.

 

The mass of players that have played GW2 have said that the game feels new and a breath of fresh air into the stale MMO genre.

 

I would say that Anet has learned the valid lesson that you pointed out above, they are not copying WoW, they are making something new and extremely accessible. Did you know that GW2 is going to be released for console as well?

 

Even non-MMO players are picking up GW2 and enjoying it. This is exactly what happened when WoW came along.

 

What happens when that newness wears out though? You have to ask yourself that question and it is fair to ask.

 

SWTOR follows a tradition that is likely to keep many players still playing. GW2 "Innovations" on endgame are unproven in the long run, whether you think it's fun or not in a weekends time doesn't mean much when players will log on everyday to experience the same thing.

 

As for releasing on Consoles...we'll see...that's not always a good thing.

 

Ask DCUO. I think having a console version was anything but good for that game.

[Kharnis]

I believe my whole statement was, "I've invested the last 11 months toward playing this game." I apologize if you or he cannot understand that "investment" refers to more than just money.

 

Considering that you equate praise in an article to criticism, are you sure you should be adopting an attitude and accusing others of not understanding something?

[Dezzi]

Considering that you equate praise in an article to criticism, are you sure you should be adopting an attitude and accusing others of not understanding something?

 

Considering that you equate criticism in an article to praise, are you sure you should be adopting an attitude and accusing others of not understanding something?

 

See? I can do it too, but we haven't gotten anywhere, have we?

 

We disagree. Please move on.

[Grimgold]

Hi everyone,

 

An article was posted a few days ago on gamespy dealing with their thoughts about SWTOR current state:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1225122p1.html

 

The article was a follow up from one they wrote back when the game was released, or maybe slightly before. It seems their writer was pretty spot on with concerns mentioned in Nov of 2011:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1212884p1.html

 

Do you agree with Gamespy or does SWTOR have what it takes to compete with upcoming MMORPGS? I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

 

I've played both, and can't bring myself to agree with the article.

 

1.) GW story yanks you out of the game and into a cutscene that would have been cliche and outdated in the 90's. Story doesn't get in the way of game play because the two never overlap. In fact most of the pve appears to be grinding different area quest that are completely free of story.

 

2.) Raiding is about player interaction, I know the people I raid with, their jobs, their families, and quite a bit besides. In guild wars I'd be hard pressed to remember anyone I completed an area quest with, and I'll never get the chance to raid with them. Being part of a raid is like being on a sports team, you get to know your team mates, you actively work on your teamwork, and contribute to a whole greater than the sum of the parts. Participating in Area quest in guild wars is like being part of a lynch mob, an anonymous person in a crowd marginally contributing.

 

3.) I disagree with the reviewer but feels is a hard thing to say one way or another.

 

4.) So the lack of an end game outside of PvP is a feature now? They were really reaching on that one. If the only thing I can do at 50 is grindy world events or PvP, I'm basically playing a crippled version of RIFT.

 

5.) Bioware has been much more responsive since the management changes.

 

Also anyone else sick of the kid gloves treatment that Guild Wars 2 is getting? I was stoked for it before I played it, and playing it reminded me why I'm generally a cynic for video game hype.