The most obnoxious class myth perpetuated on these forums

[masterbason]

You don't go into specifics there I see. Well I can hit for 12k Demo Rounds... on Fabricator. See what I did there?

No, I don't want to spend my time rolling a new FOTM class because of BWs incompetence to balance classes. Either nerf their damage to our level or buff ours to theirs.

 

I'm guessing the 6k hit from a Jugg you're referring to is Force Sweep/Smash? Yeah it's on a 12s CD, it's about the only time Juggs can deal significant damage in PVP, take that away from them and you might as well replace their light saber with a wet noodle.

 

Yes Sorcs/Sages can deal tons of damage in AE-centric fights, like Voidstar/Alderaan. That's when I see them top the damage charts more often. Not saying they don't hit hard against single targets but their strength is on AE damage.

 

I beat marauders all the time... does that mean Commandos are fine? no. They're mostly under-geared players so nothing to boast about. I routinely face a couple of WH geared Watchman spec'd Sentinels and... it ends badly. every. time. There simply is no amount of L2p that will allow me to beat them. Cauterize crit ticks hit waaay too hard, and it heals them on top of it. Granted not by much but over the course of a match I've seen these guys get anywhere between 60-90k healing, yes a pure dps class doing over 60k passive healing...

 

 

Your argument that your friend beat your neighbor's cousin's roomate on his commando is supposed to be evidence that PTs are fine? I have a full WH commando and against similarly geared Vanguards I don't stand a chance. They fire HIB a lot faster and hit way harder with it than I can. It's a dps race fight, if I try to cleanse their DoTs off me that's one GCD that I'm not using to kill them, if I ignore their DoTs I'm giving them focus and taking elemental damage ticks. lose lose situation.

 

the point is... if every class is qq about every class, so we have a balance...

 

but I do agree that commando needs a buff and the smuggler/operative needs a better look in the mid / right tree.

[Astarica]

PTs are kind of similar to Arsenal Mercs for a Tankasin in that they'll stop your winning streak at 1 if they know what they're doing because they will always hurt you enough to make sure you don't have the right health/CDs to win your next 1on1. There's virtually no variance involved in Tankasin versus PT at the high end. You will almost always win but you'll also be nearly dead and anyone else can easily finish you off after that if you don't have heals.

[SinnedWill]

reroll a marauder or a tanksin and be happy!

 

everyday I saw a thread of a op class... maras/sentinels, tanksins, vanguards/pt, operative/smuggler...

 

I've been seen juggs hitting 6k+

I see everyday sorcs/sages been the top dmg

My friend is a commando and won a 1v1 against a PT and he ins't full bm

...

 

So... what is the point here? again...

 

Yes, remodded fully WH geared (augmented) juggs/guardians in the rage/focus spec can certainly break 7k damage to a fully WH geared sorc/sage - problem for them is that sorc/sage can purge/cleanse force smash (which removes its slow, its DoT, its completion damage, and deprives them of the shockwave stacks it generates) - and force choke can be interrupted by any friendly with a stun, knockback, or interrupt (and happens to be intelligent enough to realise that doing this will also keep them alive, since it also deprives the rage/focus jugg/guardian of shockwave stacks).

 

Sorcerers/Sages tend to top dps charts due to AoE's (which many people already explained) and DoT's (which many people haven't mentioned - very easy for a sorc. to APPEAR godly as a damage dealer by tab-DoT'ing). Neither of these sources of damage tend to contribute to actual kills due to how weak they tend to be (ok, so Death Field can hit fairly hard as a madness sorc, but only if it crits and it has a 15s cooldown). Seriously, though, don't even bother trying to argue that sorc/sage dps is great - expertise benefits abilities with high base damage values most significantly - sorc/sage doesn't have a single ability that has high base damage.

[SinnedWill]

PTs are kind of similar to Arsenal Mercs for a Tankasin in that they'll stop your winning streak at 1 if they know what they're doing because they will always hurt you enough to make sure you don't have the right health/CDs to win your next 1on1. There's virtually no variance involved in Tankasin versus PT at the high end. You will almost always win but you'll also be nearly dead and anyone else can easily finish you off after that if you don't have heals.

 

If you're a GOOD tankassin, 1v1's against a good Pyro P-tech are a coin-toss. And I should hope that if you're good enough to beat a pyro p-tech as a tankassin that you're also good enough to stealth somewhere to seethe back to full health (or at least sap the enemy as they come in while you're stealthed so that you can seethe) before your next engagement (if your health is low) - yes, I understand that being a solo guard at a node can make this very difficult, but you certainly should have at least 1 person coming to reinforce you by then.

 

Arsenal/Gunnery mercs/commandos pose very little threat to tankassins 1v1 since they lack DoT's and their most effective opening attacks get interrupted/disrupted/LoS'd (interrupts being from the interrupt ability, disrupts being from stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, knockdowns, and pulls). Arsenal/Gunnery specs should stick with teammates that know how to "peel" since the armor-break from arsenal/gunnery specs results in significant performance for everyone against that target, not just the merc/commando using it - they should NEVER try to 1v1.

Edited June 18, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Varicite]

I think you might be confusing "squishy" with "has no method for escaping engagement, other than standing and fighting to the death".

 

They have Heavy Armor, Energy Shield, and high damage because once the fight begins, they are committed to the very end, period.

 

Every other class generally has some way of at least getting some breathing room when things start to go south.

 

A Powertech is going to stand there and get hit in the face (okay, they won't STAND there, but you get the picture) until they are dead, or you are. That's the entire playstyle.

[SinnedWill]

I think you might be confusing "squishy" with "has no method for escaping engagement, other than standing and fighting to the death".

 

They have Heavy Armor, Energy Shield, and high damage because once the fight begins, they are committed to the very end, period.

 

Every other class generally has some way of at least getting some breathing room when things start to go south.

 

A Powertech is going to stand there and get hit in the face (okay, they won't STAND there, but you get the picture) until they are dead, or you are. That's the entire playstyle.

 

^^ Have to agree here. Pyro P-techs are the best example of "a good offense is the best defense" for this reason - and they do it well. Don't neglect kolto overload (which although it has a long cooldown, still certainly helps give an edge - I don't have points invested to reduce its CD on crits since I only use it situationally on my pyro p-tech - might be worth trying one day, though) as an activated (though not "defensive", it still gives a survivability edge) for the DPS races powertechs always seem to have.

 

Also, don't forget that grapple/harpoon + DoT's + Delayed damage ability + Stealth scan can work to effectively counter many of those "escape" abilities other classes have, but yes - the only way pyro powertechs can get any respite is if they kill enemies first.

Edited June 18, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Seravis]

1.) My marauder is carnage - it's squishy as balls, quit comparing your 120s energy shield cooldown, (which can be used roughly every 1 minute on average if you have 2 points in energy rebounder - sometimes longer, sometimes shorter - depends on enemy class composition primarily) to my marauder using all of my defensive cooldowns to stay alive briefly (which is still typically shorter windows of survival compared to my pyro p-tech even when my marauder has EVERYTHING off cooldown). P-techs also have kolto overload for survivability (funny how noone remembers this, likely due to the 3m cooldown - which can again be shortened if talented, though I don't have that with my spec - but certainly saves my pryo's *** when I pop it ~50% health so as to avoid getting hit by execution moves). The marauder spec that benefits significantly from its activated defensives is annihilation due to self-healing being far more effective when taking reduced damage values (or no damage at all).

 

2.) Don't have a jugg, so no comment on the receiving end, but yes, they're laughable at how easily they die if you know their spec and when/how to use your abilities on them as a pyro p-tech.

 

3.) My sorcerer is madness specced - most of my damage will ignore your armor (DoT's, Deathfield) - it excels at countering heavy armored classes of all specs, but pyro p-techs get a LOT of energy shield cooldown reduction from DoT's and the DoT's are very weak (ticks that crit deal ~600 tops against any equally geared player-with a consular/inquisitor buff- that DOESN'T have a talent to reduce DoT damage - those specs tend to take ~450 per crit). Lets just be honest - pyro p-techs burn all sorcerer/sage specs.

 

4.) Tankassins really lack any specific class/spec they're consistantly vulnerable to (I'd honestly say that my 31/2/8 tankassin wins consistantly against most pyro powertechs in 1v1 situations, and it's a toss-up as to who wins if it's a VERY GOOD pyro p-tech player that knows when to effectively use his abilities to make each attack actually hit -i.e. doesn't waste flame burst/t-detonator when shroud is up, saves railshot/rocket punch when deflection is up, stealth scans me the moment I use force cloak - but many pyro p-techs seem to either be bad or have gotten very lazy since it has become increasingly rare to see these smart ones). On my pyro p-tech, yes, there certainly aren't many intelligent tankassins either (many will pop shroud + deflection at the same time or force cloak while shroud is on cooldown despite the fact that I have CGC DoT on them).

 

All-in-all, I usually run my pyro p-tech with 2 other pyro-techs - and we can SHRED larger groups of enemies (much of our survivability comes from staggering our taunts, focus-firing, chain-stunning, and killing far more efficiently/quickly than our enemies). Basically, a pack of GOOD pyro p-techs/assault VG's beats everything right now (albeit, assassin packs certainly perform nicely as well) and it gets very interesting when you face an enemy group that employs the same tactics.

 

I'm not saying any class is better than the other but...

 

Did you just say a Marauders survivability is less than a Pyrotechs?

 

While Marauders have very similar damage reduction compared to Pyrotechs, and they unfortunately are both too low to survive focus fire for long outside of Energy Shield and Saber Ward. Marauders though have 2 "oh ****" buttons that basically reset the fight if healers are involved.

 

Both classes eventually get dropped even if they get healbotted, but Marauders can at least reset the fight twice.

 

Although it's not really an issue because both classes are lower on the target priority list than healers and several other DPS.

[Boarg]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

 

The two myths that bother me are these:

 

Heavy Armor Matters.

My VG has 30% damage reduction from armor. My Sentinel has 25% damage reduction from armor. Sentinel's rebuke (20% damage reduction) has a 50% uptime in active PVP, it's available for nearly every encounter. Unlike Assassins, Operatives and Marauders the Powertech needs to be taken from 100% to 0% only one time. The other classes can press their bonus-life buttons and with a good healer have to be re-killed; Vanish, UR, Deflection, Force Shroud drastically reduce the incoming damage to the point that a single healer can save you from near-death. This is the balancing factor, you only have to focus the power tech to death once, a 25% damage reduction, no matter the duration or frequency, does not save you from focus fire the same way a 99% damage reduction or tech/force immunity does.

 

Resource Usage Doesn't matter.

Pyro powertechs are resource hogs. To deal the awesome burst damage everyone is complaining about a PT has to put himself into the lower regen rate for his resources. Spamming FB will puto you into medium regen after 3 uses. 2 more uses put you into low regen. Yes, Rail Shot is the heat dumping mechanic. However there is RNG involved and often times RNG is against you. What happens to a pyro when his target is cleansed at a few key moments? He does not get to dump his heat, and turns into a kitten for 15 to 20 seconds.

 

You're right, Pyro PT / AS Van are vulnerable to focus fire, but so is every other dps spec other than Mara/Sent having a boatload of useful CD's and possibly dps Jugg's to a lesser extent. Tanksins are more durable, but they are tanks even if they are confused about their role.

 

Over the course of a typical PvP fight, Energy Shields will prolong a dps players life as much or more than say a dps Shadow using both Resilience and Deflection. I won't entertain 3v1 type scenarios because if it's actually a fair 3v3+ there should be lots of things going on with teammate support giving taunts/guards/heals/CC/peels, etc. Things like a 3m vanish aren't going to be available very often and also require another 1m CD in Resilience to actually work…and the vanish will normally be saved for a utility situation anyway when both classes can just rez back into a fight shortly. Realistically, some other classes extra buttons compared to PT/Van translate mostly into extra utility rather than any soft of actual durability advantage in a brawl.

 

When you accept that the durability cooldowns aren't very far apart for most real dps specs in a brawl setting, survivability mostly boils down to positioning and passive mitigation.

 

Pyro PT / AS Van have pretty much the best pvp positioning situation of any class since they can play against ranged roughly from melee without actually needing to be closer than 10m very often and can play against melee from further than they like to be with only one 4m ability on a CD that gets use…along with grapple to reposition the enemy. They aren't forced to chase in melee constantly or forced to kite like all the other classes. This saves a lot of overall exposure and damage.

 

And then there's the passive mitigation… Going from 25% reduction to 30% reduction is ~7.1% reduction in damage taken. Full War Hero should have ~31.3% (9.2% better than 25% armor reduction.) There's also two talents in reach to increase that if a players wants to trade offense for defense. Power Armor (also affects internal/elemental) can put you at 33.3% (12.4% better than 25% armor reduction.) Rebraced Armor can put you at 34.6% (14.7% better than 25% armor reduction.) In terms of %improvement/point, those two talents actually give more return than most of the offensive talents they compete with…it's just defense instead of offense. Value-wise per point, they are solid. Point is, Heavy Armor is more valuable than the face value ~5% difference.

 

In terms of dps specs, I'd put Maras/Sents and probably dps Juggs/Gaurdians up on the top tier of survivability and being significantly better off than everyone else. Of the rest, I'd put dps PTs/Vans as next best mainly due to the positioning and passive mitigation. The rest probably come down to ranged vs. melee dynamics. People saying Pyro PT / AS Van is tanky is wrong…people saying they are squishy compared to other dps is wrong too. They are pretty much mid-pack.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Boarg

[SinnedWill]

I'm not saying any class is better than the other but...

 

Did you just say a Marauders survivability is less than a Pyrotechs?

 

While Marauders have very similar damage reduction compared to Pyrotechs, and they unfortunately are both too low to survive focus fire for long outside of Energy Shield and Saber Ward. Marauders though have 2 "oh ****" buttons that basically reset the fight if healers are involved.

 

Both classes eventually get dropped even if they get healbotted, but Marauders can at least reset the fight twice.

 

Although it's not really an issue because both classes are lower on the target priority list than healers and several other DPS.

 

I said carnage specced marauder does - rage mitigates a bit more damage and shorter undying rage cooldown, but is also squishy. What I really said was that Annihilation spec benefits the most (due to self-healing) from the defensive cooldowns. As a carnage marauder, I really only have one true "oh crap" button since gore proc (6s duration -1.5s GCD reset = 4.5s practical application) damage windows for carnage are VERY SHORT with a 15s cooldown - (thus, force camo gets used offensively for when I'm slowed + kited or rooted when I have it up).

 

Sure, pocket healers are awesome, but carnage marauders are so squishy that one dedicated pocket healer can't usually cover it if the enemy has good burst damage (easier if the mara is annihilation since their self-healing procs are enough to buy time for those heals to fire and further help prevent them from being vulnerable to executes since they'll certainly help keep HP above 30% - damage from execution moves is quite significant) - and due to the predictable application of when UR gets used (rule of thumb is stun marauder ~30% health to burst them dead before they can even use it), yeah, I most certainly did say that carnage marauder is squishy.

[Varicite]

^^ Have to agree here. Pyro P-techs are the best example of "a good offense is the best defense" for this reason - and they do it well. Don't neglect kolto overload (which although it has a long cooldown, still certainly helps give an edge - I don't have points invested to reduce its CD on crits since I only use it situationally on my pyro p-tech - might be worth trying one day, though) as an activated (though not "defensive", it still gives a survivability edge) for the DPS races powertechs always seem to have.

 

Also, don't forget that grapple/harpoon + DoT's + Delayed damage ability + Stealth scan can work to effectively counter many of those "escape" abilities other classes have, but yes - the only way pyro powertechs can get any respite is if they kill enemies first.

 

I agree.

 

I just thought it was important to note that they are designed to win in most 1v1 matchups because if they were not, the class literally would have no point. If they cannot win most 1v1 matchups, then they cannot do anything at all, because they cannot escape combat to try to pick out a different opponent.

 

I didn't include Kolto Overload, because it is the weakest "defensive" ability in the entire game, on a 3 minute cooldown. It is outclassed by literally EVERY single AC's version of self-healing, which generally don't include cooldowns at all.

 

An Annihilation Marauder can and will outheal Kolto Overload w/ 1 stack of bleeds, and they can do this indefinitely.

 

Tankassin can outheal Kolto Overload by their 2nd Force Lightning, so about every 12 seconds.

 

Commando's Hammer Shot outheals Kolto Overload. So does Rapid Shots from a Merc healer.

 

Did I mention that THREE MINUTE COOLDOWN?

 

This is why we do not talk about Kolto Overload. : )

[DimeStax]

All of you PT Pyros who claim you are melee. I propose you go into a warzone and never use a single ability until you are within rocket punch range. Welcome to melee.

[masterbason]

A Powertech is going to stand there and get hit in the face (okay, they won't STAND there, but you get the picture) until they are dead, or you are. That's the entire playstyle.

 

hauhauhauhua... I like this! And it is total true!

[Boarg]

However when you translate 10m range into a warzone environment there is very little difference from an exposure perspective. You have to be close enough to the enemy to be exposed to their backline ranged fire. Having played both the sentinel and the vanguard, I will not argue that it's much harder to kite (or rather delay the damage from) the vanguard, but at the same time the vanguard is not in any safer DPS location than the sentinel. In order to use all your tools, you have to be up close. For all intents and purposes, the pyro is a melee class in warzones (and in duels against ranged classes).

 

Largely true, although going out to 10m helps a lot for being able to stay out of aoe zones or staying behind los and still being able to hit a target. Also, there's the grapple to take a target out to your mildly safer area and and hit them with a Flame Burst/Ion Pulse to put up the snare and they aren't getting away fast. And you can also afford to float out past 10m sometimes.

 

Out on a tangent...10m helps a lot with landing attacks quickly too without having as much issue with server desync. 4m classes can have a lot of abilities delayed because even while they appear to be standing on their opponent, the server won't register them as in range or with correct facing all the time or right away. Having a 10m instant cast arsenal is quite nice for getting the damage out quickly to win that dps race.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Boarg

[DimeStax]

I agree.

 

I just thought it was important to note that they are designed to win in most 1v1 matchups because if they were not, the class literally would have no point. If they cannot win most 1v1 matchups, then they cannot do anything at all, because they cannot escape combat to try to pick out a different opponent.

 

I didn't include Kolto Overload, because it is the weakest "defensive" ability in the entire game, on a 3 minute cooldown. It is outclassed by literally EVERY single AC's version of self-healing, which generally don't include cooldowns at all.

 

An Annihilation Marauder can and will outheal Kolto Overload w/ 1 stack of bleeds, and they can do this indefinitely.

 

Tankassin can outheal Kolto Overload by their 2nd Force Lightning, so about every 12 seconds.

 

Commando's Hammer Shot outheals Kolto Overload. So does Rapid Shots from a Merc healer.

 

Did I mention that THREE MINUTE COOLDOWN?

 

This is why we do not talk about Kolto Overload. : )

 

Actually right now Smugglers and IA's shield defensive cooldown is the weakest in the game. As of right now (until patch 1.3) it doesn't scale with cunning, so it litterally absorbs 1.5k. No joke.

[criminalheretic]

I basically agree. Ok they may be squishier than a shadow tank or Mara but definitely nowhere as squishy as a sage or dps operative and have way more burst. They are just critting faces off right now. idk something seems wrong. Everyone crying about maras and shadow tanks but they fail to see the guy blowing people up from the back.

 

A word of advice for everyone, turn your defeat messages on.

 

I don't think PTs need a nerf, but then I am a Marauder. But as a Marauder is drives me insane that the forums are filled with so many nerf cries about my class, while I have to sit here and watch PTs double my damage output on a regular basis.

 

To which people always respond "It's AOE it doesn't kill anyone like burst does".

 

Like I said, turn your defeat (and victory) messages on, and see how often that AOE actually does take people off the field.

[Varicite]

Actually right now Smugglers and IA's shield defensive cooldown is the weakest in the game. As of right now (until patch 1.3) it doesn't scale with cunning, so it litterally absorbs 1.5k. No joke.

 

Okay, you win.

 

Kolto Overload will at least heal for about 2.5k~ over 10 seconds, assuming full BM gear on the PT.

[Seravis]

I agree.

 

I just thought it was important to note that they are designed to win in most 1v1 matchups because if they were not, the class literally would have no point. If they cannot win most 1v1 matchups, then they cannot do anything at all, because they cannot escape combat to try to pick out a different opponent.

 

I didn't include Kolto Overload, because it is the weakest "defensive" ability in the entire game, on a 3 minute cooldown. It is outclassed by literally EVERY single AC's version of self-healing, which generally don't include cooldowns at all.

 

An Annihilation Marauder can and will outheal Kolto Overload w/ 1 stack of bleeds, and they can do this indefinitely.

 

Tankassin can outheal Kolto Overload by their 2nd Force Lightning, so about every 12 seconds.

 

Commando's Hammer Shot outheals Kolto Overload. So does Rapid Shots from a Merc healer.

 

Did I mention that THREE MINUTE COOLDOWN?

 

This is why we do not talk about Kolto Overload. : )

 

Yeah... Kolto Overload really is a sad joke to most people. It's not BAD and people should still use it, but it's completely outclassed by every defensive CD in EVERY way.

 

Barely noticeable healing combined with a ridiculous CD...

 

For intents and purposes Pyrotechs have a single defensive CD. It is a very strong defense because due to the way the calculation works it provides significantly higher damage reduction than 25% vs damage already reduced by armor. But they only have ONE defense as far as I am concerned.

[Astarica]

When I first saw Kolto Overload I figure it must be like heal 7% per second for 10 seconds, and then I realized it really did say 7% heal total.

[Hethroin]

All of you PT Pyros who claim you are melee. I propose you go into a warzone and never use a single ability until you are within rocket punch range. Welcome to melee.

You can "welcome" me to being melee when storm is baseline and generates ammo when I use it.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Hethroin

[Boarg]

If you're even alive for 10s....if not, that smuggler absorb might start looking attractive...

[DimeStax]

You can "welcome" me to being melee when storm is baseline and generates ammo when I use it.

 

So you're saying you must not be melee?

[Varicite]

When I first saw Kolto Overload I figure it must be like heal 7% per second for 10 seconds, and then I realized it really did say 7% heal total.

 

It's 15% now, but still pretty terrible as far as cooldowns go. : )

 

I just can't stand it when people bring Kolto Overload into a thread about PTs and try to offer it up as some sort of "serious debate" discussing their defenses.

 

It's not completely worthless, but when you get the ability, it does kinda feel like an insult, lol.

[Seravis]

A word of advice for everyone, turn your defeat messages on.

 

I don't think PTs need a nerf, but then I am a Marauder. But as a Marauder is drives me insane that the forums are filled with so many nerf cries about my class, while I have to sit here and watch PTs double my damage output on a regular basis.

 

To which people always respond "It's AOE it doesn't kill anyone like burst does".

 

Like I said, turn your defeat (and victory) messages on, and see how often that AOE actually does take people off the field.

 

That is my view of things. I'm worried that my Marauder will get nerfed even though I see terrible Pyrotechs that still outdamage me. I see it as somewhat balanced as even though Pyros outdamage Marauders against most targets, especially against any kind of tank, Marauders have a few more tricks to avoid being focused.

 

Pyros are also hands down the best DPS for huttball as well. They are the only class who have any real chance of killing a Tank Ball Carrier. Through ignoring their armor or their Pull> Stun > Stun combo into a hazard.

[SinnedWill]

It's 15% now, but still pretty terrible as far as cooldowns go. : )

 

I just can't stand it when people bring Kolto Overload into a thread about PTs and try to offer it up as some sort of "serious debate" discussing their defenses.

 

It's not completely worthless, but when you get the ability, it does kinda feel like an insult, lol.

 

You still can't really say that you don't use it every chance you can, though. Heh. Certainly is more effective for tank specs or AP pyro specs with the damage reduction during stun. Also becomes more effective if you pop med-pack, have healers (namely ops/scound HoT's), and you'd be surprised how many times it can save your life by getting you back up above 30% health when an assassin wasted his force expecting to be able to finish you with assassinate. Again, I didn't take the talent to reduce its cooldown from pyrotech tree (each time I crit) since I found it to only benefit me most in certain situations.

[Seravis]

You can "welcome" me to being melee when storm is baseline and generates ammo when I use it.

 

Storm is given to your tanky dps melee spec though! They need some reason to spec into it. Shame you guys had your tank spec relegated into a tanky dps spec.

 

I don't know *** Pyro counts as though. They can achieve 95% of their potential outside of melee range, but they can't sit at 30m very effectively. They are somehow neither melee nor ranged.