The most obnoxious class myth perpetuated on these forums

[Hethroin]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

 

The two myths that bother me are these:

 

Heavy Armor Matters.

My VG has 30% damage reduction from armor. My Sentinel has 25% damage reduction from armor. Sentinel's rebuke (20% damage reduction) has a 50% uptime in active PVP, it's available for nearly every encounter. Unlike Assassins, Operatives and Marauders the Powertech needs to be taken from 100% to 0% only one time. The other classes can press their bonus-life buttons and with a good healer have to be re-killed; Vanish, UR, Deflection, Force Shroud drastically reduce the incoming damage to the point that a single healer can save you from near-death. This is the balancing factor, you only have to focus the power tech to death once, a 25% damage reduction, no matter the duration or frequency, does not save you from focus fire the same way a 99% damage reduction or tech/force immunity does.

 

Resource Usage Doesn't matter.

Pyro powertechs are resource hogs. To deal the awesome burst damage everyone is complaining about a PT has to put himself into the lower regen rate for his resources. Spamming FB will puto you into medium regen after 3 uses. 2 more uses put you into low regen. Yes, Rail Shot is the heat dumping mechanic. However there is RNG involved and often times RNG is against you. What happens to a pyro when his target is cleansed at a few key moments? He does not get to dump his heat, and turns into a kitten for 15 to 20 seconds.

[Venjirai]

1000 WZ's played and you come up with this ... really? Of course it makes a big difference.

As a healer that get's focused more than all the other classes combined, proper positioning is greater than any defensive cooldown in the game. Range = king.

 

No, range does not make a big difference at all in this game.

If you are ranged then your biggest priority is staying undetected otherwise it's pretty much gg.

Leaping to you or pulling you and your range advantage is gone.

 

Vanguards need to stay in melee range to do good damage ... go thing they have a pull, right ? The defensive cooldowns come at that cost

 

You are talking about 1on1 and doing damage instead of receiving damage and getting focus fired.

Are you running out of arguments and therefor need to change the subject?

Yeah, pull the range dd to you when getting focused, might save your life.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Venjirai

[Johanjj]

As a powertech the targets i kill fastest are

1 sage/sorc (unless they knock you down / sprint out of los etc)

2 bountyhunters merc and pt

3 Juggernaugths unless they have like all there cds up

4 agent sniper and operative

5 tie betwen marauders and assasin tanks.

[Helig]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

 

The two myths that bother me are these:

 

Heavy Armor Matters.

My VG has 30% damage reduction from armor. My Sentinel has 25% damage reduction from armor. Sentinel's rebuke (20% damage reduction) has a 50% uptime in active PVP, it's available for nearly every encounter. Unlike Assassins, Operatives and Marauders the Powertech needs to be taken from 100% to 0% only one time. The other classes can press their bonus-life buttons and with a good healer have to be re-killed; Vanish, UR, Deflection, Force Shroud drastically reduce the incoming damage to the point that a single healer can save you from near-death. This is the balancing factor, you only have to focus the power tech to death once, a 25% damage reduction, no matter the duration or frequency, does not save you from focus fire the same way a 99% damage reduction or tech/force immunity does.

 

Yup, fully agree. If heavy armour was around 45-50% passive damage reduction outside tank stance, then yes, I'd say that it makes a difference, probably as big as some of the more tame complainers claim.

 

Right now, the difference between heavy and light is 10-12% Energy\Kinetic damage reduction.

 

And I'm not even mentioning that a lot of classes have means to significantly reduce armour efficiency.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Helig

[Eggsbacon]

I'll be dead before it finishes. You kill everyone in a few hits, bar Tanksin and Marauder, everything else dies. Plus your 1k tick at under 30% health butchers even healer Operative.

 

Use your stuns?

[Orangerascal]

No, range does not make a big difference at all in this game.

If you are ranged then your biggest priority is staying undetected otherwise it's pretty much gg.

Leaping to you or pulling you and your range advantage is gone.

 

If you think being at range and using los doesn't have an advantage over melee when being focus fired than what can I say, you're wrong. If 4 people decide to focus me and I decide to hide behind los so only 1 marauder can hit me, then I win.

 

 

You are talking about 1on1 and doing damage instead of receiving damage and getting focus fired.

Are you running out of arguments and therefor need to change the subject?

Yeah, pull the range dd to you when getting focused, might save your life.

 

I never changed the subject, (but it's ironic that you did, then drew attention to it). The fight does not start with the vanguard being surrounded by 4 people. So if the vanguard is caught out of position it's his own fault. The defensive cooldowns comes at the cost of their pull ability, so their not caught out of position.

 

In fact in target priority's the vanguard is lucky enough to be in the middle of the pack, with sages/sorcs (dps/heal) being on top on that priority list..

Edited June 18, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Venjirai]

If you think being at range and using los doesn't have an advantage over melee when being focus fired than what can I say, you're wrong. If 4 people decide to focus me and I decide to hide behind los so only 1 marauder can hit me, then I win.

 

I never changed the subject, (but it's ironic that you did, then drew attention to it). The fight does not start with the vanguard being surrounded by 4 people. So if the vanguard is caught out of position it's his own fault. The defensive cooldowns comes at the cost of their pull ability, so their not caught out of position.

 

In fact in target priority's the vanguard is lucky enough to be in the middle of the pack, with sages/sorcs (dps/heal) being on top on that priority list..

 

The subject is Vanguards being squishy and you talk about pull and their damage.

With all the roots, stuns, pulls you can't los and you can't do it properly as the most damage will come from melees. Range DDs are mostly support classes who, when well played, won't give you a chance to escape as a vanguard, commando or sage.

Vanguards are perfectly fine. They do the best damage and have no way to escape focus fire.

Good groups will take them down right after the healers.

[RenegadeSLX]

Whoa whoa. Stop this logic. I just finished gearing out my Vanguard in battlemaster. Go pick on Mara/Sents some more I'm bored with that class.

[Achyllis]

My favorite myth is that teams of operatives are stunlocking entire servers to the point that they unsub. Whoever got that idea is a terribad.

 

The dangers of myths in the wrong hands.

[Jetflair]

I've played myself vanguard tank/dps and a Guardian DPS in pvp quite lot. To be honest I do think Vanguards are squishy. Now I am going to hear all the good and valid arguments why this isn't so.

 

Yes I agree. They have good armor. They aren't paper. Still my practical experience when playing Vanguard and against their counterparts BH's is that they are squishy.

 

Part of the reason is the other class I play that I admit. When playing Guardian Focus and having huge area burst while running in Soresu form and having Enure+Focused defence+Force Statis+Awe+Force Exchaustion make you feel pretty invulnerable. After jumping to Vanguard you feel damn vulnerable as DPS as your damage migration is less and CC is no way as good. Even the burst doesn't feel as good.

 

Yes you make more damage as Vanguard Assault but everything seems to hit you just faster and you can't slow others down with their damage as well with Guardian/Juggernaut. It all adds up.

 

On the other side playing against BH's on other side I've noticed they are only sure kills if they can't heal well. Usually with some trying I always get any BH dps down, even those that exploit. But some inquisitors are like stone. Yes weak ones are awfully easy to kill, just Force Sweep, Forche Exhaustion and Master Strike. But good ones jump back like jojo. Same goes to operatives.

 

Maybe your experience is different but my experience is that even very well geared Vanguard Assault is first to go down.

[Arkerus]

The most obnoxious myth that keeps getting repeated on this forum is that 'pyrotechs or assault specialist vanguards are squishy'. That is such a load of crap.

 

There is nothing squishy about a pyrotech or assault vanguard with 19k health, in heavy armor, and a defensive cooldown that if specced appropriately will be up every minute, and might last anywhere from 12-18 seconds. And still be able to pop off 4-5k rail shots on heavy armored targets, while being able to keep them perma-snared. It only takes a semi-competent healer to keep these guys up even in the middle of a brawl by the door in voidstar. They might be squishier than a War Hero-geared tank, but considering most tanks roll in DPS gear anyways, the pyrotech is among the /least/ squishiest classes on the field.

 

The second most obnoxious fallacy that keeps getting thrown around, is how if they spam their ion pulse or flame burst too much, they'll go out of ammo. It is perfectly cheap enough, when mixing in bursts and rocket punch with rail shot, to kill just about anyone on demand. And then recharge their ammo or whatever. The reality is that flame burst/ion pulse can be spammed exactly as much as it needs to be.

 

What's frustrating is that we don't know if Bioware is ever going to fix it. The senior PvP designer, Gabe, is the guy that left Bright Wizards untouched in Warhammer, after all. I have a strong suspicion that Gabe only plays or cares about 1-49 PvP. Because yeah, in 1-49, everything seems relatively balanced. Even Shadows/Sins aren't that tough. But people just don't comprehend how different it is at 19k+ health. (Just like how they can't comprehend Shadows/Sins with 24k+ health, dishing out 3-4k hits.)

 

Class X claims they are a glass cannon and that they actually die very fast to anyone competent. Only the losers and scrubs can't kill them. In fact, they need buffed. OF COURSE the problem isn't with the class balance, its just that no one has realized how soft they are! Class X is a glass cannon and that's why they get to kill everyone else in 4 GCDs! Its only fair.

 

If only someone would attack them you would see that they die just as fast as everyone else. It just so happens that no one ever fights them. Total coincidence.

[PicthShemet]

Vanguards being able to storm, hold the line, root with harpoon, and use assault plastique. I was not aware that VGs had 80 skill points to spend.

[Seravis]

The most obnoxious myth that keeps getting repeated on this forum is that 'pyrotechs or assault specialist vanguards are squishy'. That is such a load of crap.

 

There is nothing squishy about a pyrotech or assault vanguard with 19k health, in heavy armor, and a defensive cooldown that if specced appropriately will be up every minute, and might last anywhere from 12-18 seconds. And still be able to pop off 4-5k rail shots on heavy armored targets, while being able to keep them perma-snared. It only takes a semi-competent healer to keep these guys up even in the middle of a brawl by the door in voidstar. They might be squishier than a War Hero-geared tank, but considering most tanks roll in DPS gear anyways, the pyrotech is among the /least/ squishiest classes on the field.

 

The second most obnoxious fallacy that keeps getting thrown around, is how if they spam their ion pulse or flame burst too much, they'll go out of ammo. It is perfectly cheap enough, when mixing in bursts and rocket punch with rail shot, to kill just about anyone on demand. And then recharge their ammo or whatever. The reality is that flame burst/ion pulse can be spammed exactly as much as it needs to be.

 

What's frustrating is that we don't know if Bioware is ever going to fix it. The senior PvP designer, Gabe, is the guy that left Bright Wizards untouched in Warhammer, after all. I have a strong suspicion that Gabe only plays or cares about 1-49 PvP. Because yeah, in 1-49, everything seems relatively balanced. Even Shadows/Sins aren't that tough. But people just don't comprehend how different it is at 19k+ health. (Just like how they can't comprehend Shadows/Sins with 24k+ health, dishing out 3-4k hits.)

 

Also it is a little known fact is that their "25%" damage reduction CD actually reduces damage by MORE than 25% against attacks that are already reduced by their armor. Most class spec deal kinetic/energy damage, but ironically Pyrotechs are one of the few who don't. They are a "melee" class with all RANGED INSTANT CAST abilities that ignore all armor and most ignore defense.

 

for example

100 damage vs 35% armor = 65 damage

100 damage vs 60%(the 25% is directly added) armor = 40 damage

That's over a 33% damage reduction.

 

Another example showing how their "25%" reduction actually improves as they get better gear

100 damage vs 50% armor = 50 damage

100 damage vs 75% armor(+25%) = 25 damage

That is a 50% damage reduction

 

Don't let Powertechs get away with selling short their "weak" defensive CD.

[Hethroin]

Also it is a little known fact is that their "25%" damage reduction CD actually reduces damage by MORE than 25% against attacks that are already reduced by their armor. Most class spec deal kinetic/energy damage, but ironically Pyrotechs are one of the few who don't.

 

for example

100 damage vs 35% armor = 65 damage

100 damage vs 60%(the 25% is directly added) armor = 40 damage

That's over a 33% damage reduction.

 

Another example showing how their "25%" reduction actually improves as they get better gear

100 damage vs 50% armor = 50 damage

100 damage vs 75% armor(+25%) = 25 damage

That is a 50% damage reduction

 

Don't let Powertechs get away with selling short their "weak" defensive CD.

 

Making up numbers is fun. A war hero geared assault vanguard delves a massive 30.5% reduction to kinetic and energy damage. With a 0% internal and elemental reduction. I'm not going to argue that your math on how the damage reduction is wrong, because it's right. But your base numbers are flat out made up, no pyro has a base mitigation of 35, or 50. Tank stance will put you at around 45% mitigation base, but also happens to drop your DPS about 45% if you're pyro spec.

 

Gear can make shiled last longer. Shield lasts 12 seconds base, 15 with 2pc PvP Medic, 18 with 2pc PvE Supercommando. You lose 15% crit rate on rail shot (4pc PVP Eliminator) when increasing the shield duration, thus reducing the burst everyone likes to mention as the strong point of the class. A reasonably balanced trade off.

 

They are a "melee" class with all RANGED INSTANT CAST abilities that ignore all armor and most ignore defense.

This, to me, suggest that there was a design decision made by the dev team that the game should have a tank busting spec. One that hits tanks nearly as hard as they do non-tanks. This balances out what would otherwise be immortal tank+healer combos. The truth of the matter is that tanks that are geared for tanking still take less damage from pyros. Rail Shot is a white damage, shield-able attack that can be deflected. Any pyro hitting on tanks over non-tanks still ends up doing less total damage, the difference is just less drastic.

[Jetflair]

Also it is a little known fact is that their "25%" damage reduction CD actually reduces damage by MORE than 25% against attacks that are already reduced by their armor. Most class spec deal kinetic/energy damage, but ironically Pyrotechs are one of the few who don't. They are a "melee" class with all RANGED INSTANT CAST abilities that ignore all armor and most ignore defense.

 

for example

100 damage vs 35% armor = 65 damage

100 damage vs 60%(the 25% is directly added) armor = 40 damage

That's over a 33% damage reduction.

 

Another example showing how their "25%" reduction actually improves as they get better gear

100 damage vs 50% armor = 50 damage

100 damage vs 75% armor(+25%) = 25 damage

That is a 50% damage reduction

 

Don't let Powertechs get away with selling short their "weak" defensive CD.

 

Problem with BH Pyrotech/Vanguards Assut is the burst. I really have to push buttons and rain constant damage to target get the target down. Basically do bring any well geared player down you need like 5-6 attacks. There is no single huge burst except attack plastique that is delayed.

 

Vanguard doesn't kill by huge burst it ******s target with moderate strikes that eat the target alive from range and near(you need near because two attacks at least). The better armor is to offset the fact you need to get face of the target. But its not offset by it.

 

All melee characters will hit much faster and higher on melee than vanguards. Assault Vanguard has also no knocknback and only slowing effect is active: shooting the target(which can leap or pull).

 

CC is adequate but no way best. Just two CC with limited effect. Both stop target for a while for doing damage but neither really adds dps or burst. Compare it to Guardian Focus where you actually during CC do damage and build singularity at same time for Force Sweep.

 

I'm not saying Vanguard Assault suck.s I just say they have pretty poor defense and better kill targets fast.

[SinnedWill]

All I can say about pyro p-techs and assault VG's survivability is this: "best defense is a good offense" - and it never hurts to travel in packs with other pyro PT's/assault VG's - chain-taunting FTW! Edited June 18, 2012 by SinnedWill

[SinnedWill]

Problem with BH Pyrotech/Vanguards Assut is the burst. I really have to push buttons and rain constant damage to target get the target down. Basically do bring any well geared player down you need like 5-6 attacks. There is no single huge burst except attack plastique that is delayed.

 

Vanguard doesn't kill by huge burst it ******s target with moderate strikes that eat the target alive from range and near(you need near because two attacks at least). The better armor is to offset the fact you need to get face of the target. But its not offset by it.

 

All melee characters will hit much faster and higher on melee than vanguards. Assault Vanguard has also no knocknback and only slowing effect is active: shooting the target(which can leap or pull).

 

CC is adequate but no way best. Just two CC with limited effect. Both stop target for a while for doing damage but neither really adds dps or burst. Compare it to Guardian Focus where you actually during CC do damage and build singularity at same time for Force Sweep.

 

I'm not saying Vanguard Assault suck.s I just say they have pretty poor defense and better kill targets fast.

 

Derp... the damage that a VG hard stun does compared to the damage from a Focus Guardian's version of choke is that you can actually attack your stunned target - the guardian has to sit there for 3s (basically self-stunned) while he does his - only the tank-spec's version becomes a hard-stun. If you can't deal more damage than force choke with 2 GCD's that your stun buys you, shame on you. And your AoE mez (cc) works IDENTICALLY to that of the aoe mez from warriors/knights (breaks on damage).

[DimeStax]

My all time favorite class myth: "PT Pyros are MELEE classes."

 

LMAO.

[nallard]

And your AoE mez (cc) works IDENTICALLY to that of the aoe mez from warriors/knights (breaks on damage).

 

Nope. You are wrong. You should make sure you look up the abilities you are talking about before you post. Awe and Neural Surge are very different.

[Arkerus]

LOL. This matched my sarcastic post exactly.

 

I'm actually very weak. CHECK

The only reason I win is because I'm playing scrubs. CHECK

I need buffs (we'll throw that in with the healer comment). CHECK

Edited June 18, 2012 by Qishari
quoted inappropriate content

[Seravis]

My all time favorite class myth: "PT Pyros are MELEE classes."

 

LMAO.

 

^ this is it.

 

Powertechs have a SINGLE melee ability and its on a 9 second CD.

 

Everything else is ranged. And their gap closer is the only gap closer usable when rooted.

[bglodt]

^ this is it.

 

Powertechs have a SINGLE melee ability and its on a 9 second CD.

 

Everything else is ranged. And their gap closer is the only gap closer usable when rooted.

 

Actually if we are not within 4-10m we CANNOT get the HiB/rail shot procc that you think makes them OP. if they don't get within that range frequently, they decrease their dps.... I suppose operatives are not melee classes because they have ranged abilities, per your line of thinking...

[Hethroin]

^ this is it.

 

Powertechs have a SINGLE melee ability and its on a 9 second CD.

 

Everything else is ranged. And their gap closer is the only gap closer usable when rooted.

 

Pyro PT spec requires a less then 10m range for its full rotation, and it's outside of 10m range damage is lower then that of a pyro merc and unsustainable. All that awesome elemental damage has a 10m range, and Rail Shot can only be reset by abilities which have a 10m range. I would urge you to not oversell the long range capability of the pyro PT.

 

Other than rocket punch, they have a 4m interrupt, PBAE stun, PBAE Flame Sweep, and frontal cone Flame Thrower: it is a front line class. You should also note that their "gap closer" is on a 45 second cooldown compared to 15 seconds for all other gap closers, as well as subject to target's resolve unlike other gap closers. Just trying to paint you a more accurate picture.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Hethroin

[Laforet]

The most obnoxious myth that keeps getting repeated on this forum is that 'pyrotechs or assault specialist vanguards are squishy'. That is such a load of crap.

 

There is nothing squishy about a pyrotech or assault vanguard with 19k health, in heavy armor, and a defensive cooldown that if specced appropriately will be up every minute, and might last anywhere from 12-18 seconds. And still be able to pop off 4-5k rail shots on heavy armored targets, while being able to keep them perma-snared. It only takes a semi-competent healer to keep these guys up even in the middle of a brawl by the door in voidstar. They might be squishier than a War Hero-geared tank, but considering most tanks roll in DPS gear anyways, the pyrotech is among the /least/ squishiest classes on the field.

 

The second most obnoxious fallacy that keeps getting thrown around, is how if they spam their ion pulse or flame burst too much, they'll go out of ammo. It is perfectly cheap enough, when mixing in bursts and rocket punch with rail shot, to kill just about anyone on demand. And then recharge their ammo or whatever. The reality is that flame burst/ion pulse can be spammed exactly as much as it needs to be.

 

What's frustrating is that we don't know if Bioware is ever going to fix it. The senior PvP designer, Gabe, is the guy that left Bright Wizards untouched in Warhammer, after all. I have a strong suspicion that Gabe only plays or cares about 1-49 PvP. Because yeah, in 1-49, everything seems relatively balanced. Even Shadows/Sins aren't that tough. But people just don't comprehend how different it is at 19k+ health. (Just like how they can't comprehend Shadows/Sins with 24k+ health, dishing out 3-4k hits.)

 

You see the truth, ive always wanted to make a post about it. I play an assault vanguard along with my sage and, while they certainly dont have tank or marauder survivability, they have roughly the same (or even more survivability) that the other dps specced ACs (dps juggs, dps operatives, snipers, dps sins, etc).

 

The myth that pyrotechs are squishy is spread around by bad pyrotech players that cant play their class and want to stand toe to toe with a marauder ravaging them.

 

One of the most geared pyrotechs in these forums released a video not long time ago, hes a backpedaller, he also thinks degauss is useless in pvp and claims that a heavy armor class with a dmg reduction CD is a glass cannon.

 

Go figure.

 

Powertechs are making bad players look good. Even marauders need more skill to dish out their damage (they have to stay on top of their targets) while pyros can unleash everything they have while backpedalling at a safe 10m range and keep people snared 90% of the time because their slow is BLEND into their two spammable attacks (hammer shot and ion pulse/flame burst).

 

And NO, YOU DONT GO OUT OF AMMO IF YOU SPAM ION PULSE, you do go out of ammo if you spam INCENDIARY ROUND, and you should never spam incendiary round unless as an opener (to avoid false HiB proc) or when the target is out of 10m range.

 

Damn pyrotechs are stupid enough mess up with a 3 button rotation and go out of ammo. Faceroll class makes facerolling players.

 

Im sorry about the real skilled ptechs out there, i know some of you guys rock and i pay /respect to anyone that master their class. But the fact that backpedalling/going out of ammo/zero protection scores players are out there killing people is bad for the game and for your own class, really.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Laforet

[Astarica]

Being worse than Marauder or Tankasin in survival, who are both flat out overpowered, isn't the same as squishy.

 

Powertech's heavy armor + Energy Shield is respectable compared to any generic DPS classes that isn't meant to withstand 3 guys hitting you at the same time. The fact that 2 classes can do this is probably an oversight and should be nerfed anyway.

 

Energy Shield is probably as strong a defensive cooldown can get without other classes complaining for nerfs. It's not a get out of jail card but it keeps you out of jail as well as anything else when compared to other characters who also don't have get out of jail cards (i.e. everyone that isn't a Marauder or Tankasin).