clearsighted Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) The most obnoxious myth that keeps getting repeated on this forum is that 'pyrotechs or assault specialist vanguards are squishy'. That is such a load of crap. There is nothing squishy about a pyrotech or assault vanguard with 19k health, in heavy armor, and a defensive cooldown that if specced appropriately will be up every minute, and might last anywhere from 12-18 seconds. And still be able to pop off 4-5k rail shots on heavy armored targets, while being able to keep them perma-snared. It only takes a semi-competent healer to keep these guys up even in the middle of a brawl by the door in voidstar. They might be squishier than a War Hero-geared tank, but considering most tanks roll in DPS gear anyways, the pyrotech is among the /least/ squishiest classes on the field. The second most obnoxious fallacy that keeps getting thrown around, is how if they spam their ion pulse or flame burst too much, they'll go out of ammo. It is perfectly cheap enough, when mixing in bursts and rocket punch with rail shot, to kill just about anyone on demand. And then recharge their ammo or whatever. The reality is that flame burst/ion pulse can be spammed exactly as much as it needs to be. What's frustrating is that we don't know if Bioware is ever going to fix it. The senior PvP designer, Gabe, is the guy that left Bright Wizards untouched in Warhammer, after all. I have a strong suspicion that Gabe only plays or cares about 1-49 PvP. Because yeah, in 1-49, everything seems relatively balanced. Even Shadows/Sins aren't that tough. But people just don't comprehend how different it is at 19k+ health. (Just like how they can't comprehend Shadows/Sins with 24k+ health, dishing out 3-4k hits.) Edited June 18, 2012 by clearsighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pizzel Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I basically agree. Ok they may be squishier than a shadow tank or Mara but definitely nowhere as squishy as a sage or dps operative and have way more burst. They are just critting faces off right now. idk something seems wrong. Everyone crying about maras and shadow tanks but they fail to see the guy blowing people up from the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearsighted Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I basically agree. Ok they may be squishier than a shadow tank or Mara but definitely nowhere as squishy as a sage or dps operative and have way more burst. They are just critting faces off right now. idk something seems wrong. Everyone crying about maras and shadow tanks but they fail to see the guy blowing people up from the back. Honestly, I find them less squishier than the average mara in lvl 50 PvP. yes, maras have a couple annoying CDs, but there are some pyrotechs on my server, that manage to keep their energy armor up nearly a 1/3rd of the entire game (which translates into almost 60% damage reduction), and just never go down. Even if you get them away from a healer, they have the tools to kill any class very quickly one on one. You can't cleanse or LOS them like a lethality sniper (they will insta-reapply/railshot, while your cleanse is still on its 5 second CD), and you can't bump them away without getting pulled back. I see a lot of them not even bother wasting a GCD on their interrupts, cause they know the fight will be over so quick. At least you can sorta screw with maras, and cleanse them/knock them away/kite them. But vanguards/pyrotechs are just inexorable. And I don't care about anyone's level 1-49 experience. At 50, this class is a monster. Edited June 18, 2012 by clearsighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Some classes might need to get adjusted but the Pyrotech is not one of them. Yes, they have the highest DPS in the game, but their only defensive cd ist not going to save them from focus fire. Sentinels/Marauders do less damage but their cooldowns make more than up for it. Guardians/Juggernaut do about the damage a Sent/Marauder does, have slightly less defensive cds but make up for it with taunts, tank stance switchting + guard, guardian leap/intercede, another 30m range attack + heavy armor. Tankasins with DD gear need their damage a little bit reduced, both of the other specs need a slight buff to their survivability. Snipers are fine. Operative Healers are fine, I don't have any experience with DD Operatives as their aren't many of them around anymore. Commando Healers are fine, Sages need a defensive cooldown asap. Something like immune to cc/roots and damage for 3 seconds and resets the cooldown of force sprint while doing zero damage/healing during that duration on a 2min cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoeniixx Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Something like immune to cc/roots and damage for 3 seconds and resets the cooldown of force sprint while doing zero damage/healing during that duration on a 2min cd. That would be so cool on huttball, not OP at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) That would be so cool on huttball, not OP at all. Wow, it's op that a sage can finally carry the ball for 20m? Sorry, but a Tankassin can do that every 45s when force shroud is up. Ok, maybe the force sprint cd should not be reseted, but I stand with the other points. Edited June 18, 2012 by Venjirai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow__ Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 There is nothing squishy about a pyrotech or assault vanguard with 19k health, in heavy armor, and a defensive cooldown that if specced appropriately will be up every minute, and might last anywhere from 12-18 seconds. Yup. The only tankier classes are actual tanks and maras with all their cds up. Heavy armor actually matters because most of the attacks in the game(such as force lightning which does energy damage) actually do get reduced by armor and unlike medium armor which is only a few % better than light, heavy armor actually is a significant upgrade over medium. Even for classes like Anih maras,bleeds are only about 40% of their damage, the rest are mostly weapon or force attacks reduced by armor. Their shield is an amazing cd that adds a flat 25% damage reduction against all types of damage. So against energy/kinetic damage, they can have close to 60% mitigation(35% against internal/elemental) as long as the shield is up. Not to mention, they have amazing mobility. Everything they do is instant so they can actually freely move around unlike snipers/sorcs who have to stand still to do real damage and as such can kite, los etc. while doing 100% of their dps. What's not to like? With no signs of nerfs in sight, it's time to reroll one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davionix Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) The most obnoxious myth that keeps getting repeated on this forum is that 'pyrotechs or assault specialist vanguards are "ninja snip to bring the confession out" able to pop off 4-5k rail shots on heavy armored targets Even with full war hero gear, using exotech stim and popping war hero relic & warzone adrenal you will hardly ever get 5k hits unless you are hitting players with really low expertise ratings. Edited June 18, 2012 by Davionix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Yep, I never understood this rubbish about them being squishy, its simply not true. They are less squishy than a marauder as a baseline and the only way a marauder beats them is popping cooldowns. The difference is marauder cooldowns are easy to counter, unlike being able to ignore all armour. Even with full war hero gear, using exotech stim and popping war hero relic & warzone adrenal you will hardly ever get 5k hits unless you are hitting players with really low expertise ratings. True. However, it drives me mad seeing 3.5k railshot spams on me when im in full WH and tank stance. Its not really the powertech that annoys me per se, its the fact armour is so easily bypassed in this game. Edited June 18, 2012 by AKfourtyseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearsighted Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Some classes might need to get adjusted but the Pyrotech is not one of them. Yes, they have the highest DPS in the game, but their only defensive cd ist not going to save them from focus fire. . So misleading. No class is immune from sustained focus firing. But pyrotechs are /above/ average when it comes to enduring it. Not these paper-thin, delicate china dolls that some posters would like to have you believe. Even with full war hero gear, using exotech stim and popping war hero relic & warzone adrenal you will hardly ever get 5k hits unless you are hitting players with really low expertise ratings. 5k IS high. And I am shocked when I see it. But I see 4 to 4.5kish allllll the time, without any hanky panky needed with relics or whatever. And I specifically said '4-5k' hits on heavy armor targets. And this is an ability that can be procced virtually at will. Edited June 18, 2012 by clearsighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnoblesse Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Some classes might need to get adjusted but the Pyrotech is not one of them. Yes, they have the highest DPS in the game, but their only defensive cd ist not going to save them from focus fire. Sentinels/Marauders do less damage but their cooldowns make more than up for it. Guardians/Juggernaut do about the damage a Sent/Marauder does, have slightly less defensive cds but make up for it with taunts, tank stance switchting + guard, guardian leap/intercede, another 30m range attack + heavy armor. Tankasins with DD gear need their damage a little bit reduced, both of the other specs need a slight buff to their survivability. Snipers are fine. Operative Healers are fine, I don't have any experience with DD Operatives as their aren't many of them around anymore. Commando Healers are fine, Sages need a defensive cooldown asap. Something like immune to cc/roots and damage for 3 seconds and resets the cooldown of force sprint while doing zero damage/healing during that duration on a 2min cd. I'd actually prefer it if they swapped Kinetic Collapse with Confound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbyt Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I find this quite ironic. OP complains about myths being perpetuated then perpetuates myths himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) So misleading. No class is immune from sustained focus firing. But pyrotechs are /above/ average when it comes to enduring it. Not these paper-thin, delicate china dolls that some posters would like to have you believe. Let's see what other classes have to avoid being focus fired. Sents: Force Camo/ Guarded by the Force, Awe Assassins: Vanish, Force Shroud, Sprint Operatives: Vanish, Flashbang Guardians: Awe, Guardian Leap Sniper: Flashbang, Strong AoE on top of yourself while entrenched. Sages: Sprint, nothing else Commando, Vanguards: Not much This skills might not safe you from being killed by 4 people, but it will be enough to disorganize them or switching targets for some time. Vanguards just pretty much have to stand there and take it. Edited June 18, 2012 by Venjirai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Commando, Vanguards: Not much I know your problem, you forgot to bind: Reactive shields, Ion cell, Adrenaline Rush and Neural Surge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) However, it drives me mad seeing 3.5k railshot spams on me when im in full WH and tank stance. Its not really the powertech that annoys me per se, its the fact armour is so easily bypassed in this game. One of my main complaints in this game as a Jedi Guardian. While bypassing armour on its own is a valid mechanic, slapping it on heavy-hitting powers (or making heavy-hitting powers Internal\Elemental) seems to be against the very Bioware PvP design, since they wanted a more strategic, slower-paced type of PvP. Edited June 18, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I know your problem, you forgot to bind: Reactive shields, Ion cell, Adrenaline Rush and Neural Surge If you read my list you would know, that I did not include damage reducing skills as the do **** when getting focused by 4 players. Ion Cell. Really? When being focus fired you start casting your tanking stance?... Neural Surge does help a little bit but it's duration is too short for you to get distance from your attackers. Edited June 18, 2012 by Venjirai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) As opposed to awe I have a feeling someone is slightly biased, tuning the arguments to their favour. As opposed to awe I have a feeling someone is slightly biased, tuning the arguments to their favour. Edited June 18, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) As opposed to awe I have a feeling someone is slightly biased, tuning the arguments to their favour. Biased? Look at my signature. I do not play a vanguard. I am sharing my experience I made in pvp with over 1000 warzones played. Edited June 18, 2012 by Venjirai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Biased? Look at my signature. I do not play a vanguard. I am sharing my experience I made in pvp with over 1000 warzones played. Also you can't compare a class with the majority of their attacks being at 30m (not to mention having a pull) compared to a class like the sentinel and guardians who deals the majority of their attacks from 4m. If they pyrotech is out of positioning (especially with the pull utility), then that's his prerogative. Edited June 18, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Also you can't compare a class with the majority of their attacks being at 30m (not to mention having a pull) compared to a class like the sentinel and guardians who deals the majority of their attacks from 4m. Being ranged or melee does not make a differenced when being focused. It might help you not getting focused at the first place but with that many gap closers, pulls this won't help that much. Vanguards need to stay in melee range to do good damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Being ranged or melee does not make a differenced when being focused. It might help you not getting focused at the first place but with that many gap closers, pulls this won't help that much. Vanguards need to stay in melee range to do good damage. 1000 WZ's played and you come up with this ... really? Of course it makes a big difference because of los and the simple ability to move back out of range dps. As a healer that gets focused more than all the other classes combined, proper positioning is greater than any defensive cooldown in the game. Range = king. As for this: 'Vanguards need to stay in melee range to do good damage' ... good thing they have a pull, right ? The defensive cooldowns come at that cost. If you're charging into a group of 4 people, you best have me healing you, or do the smart thing and pull your target towards your group, focus firing him down and changing the fight dynamic. Edited June 18, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggsbacon Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The most annoying myth brought up on these forums is that assault/pyro's are tanky. Just because you are unloading all your cool downs and abilities while we have our shield up doesn't mean were hard to take down. Wait for that **** to wear off then unload...we'll die in a few hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DweezillKagemand Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Being ranged or melee does not make a differenced when being focused. It might help you not getting focused at the first place but with that many gap closers, pulls this won't help that much. Vanguards need to stay in melee range to do good damage. Stop, just stop with that lame overused and stale excuse. There is always someone in range in mass PvP, plus 45 seconds isn't even a long cooldown. You could just stun them and run at them tbqh and since you have 100% snare uptime on the target, it isn't exactly easy to escape, plus the snare can be applied at 30m range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DweezillKagemand Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The most annoying myth brought up on these forums is that assault/pyro's are tanky. Just because you are unloading all your cool downs and abilities while we have our shield up doesn't mean were hard to take down. Wait for that **** to wear off then unload...we'll die in a few hits. I'll be dead before it finishes. You kill everyone in a few hits, bar Tanksin and Marauder, everything else dies. Plus your 1k tick at under 30% health butchers even healer Operative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejected Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 My favorite myth is that teams of operatives are stunlocking entire servers to the point that they unsub. Whoever got that idea is a terribad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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