Who here actually likes Karen Traviss?

[Arecelis]

What it comes down to is this: Her work is mostly in military fiction. The funny thing is, almost everyone else out there who writes similar stories does a better job.

 

Tom Clancy? Check. (Rainbow Six)

Richard Marcinko? Check. (Rogue Warrior series)

Allan Cole? Check. (Sten)

Chris Bunch? Check. (Sten, The Last Legion)

Mary Gentle? Check. (Grunts)

Dave Sherman? Check. (StarFIST)

Dan Cragg? Check. (StarFIST)

David Drake? Check. (Hammer's Slammers)

 

And as far as Star Wars goes, she was never a good fit.

 

Also add to this that every single person mentioned there is a veteran, and that as a trend vets tend to write the best military fiction out there and you can see the issue.

 

and add John Ringo? Check(legacy of the Aldenata)

[deneric]

Here's a question for everyone: Where are you getting the idea that Traviss Mandos are "overpowered"? When do they ever do anything that qualifies them as more powerful than a Mandalorian should be?

 

You mean aside from every Mandalorian and his grandma kicking Jaina Solo's - THE SWORD OF THE JEDI - ***? Now, I'm not saying Boba Fett wouldn't give her a good thrashing, but she couldn't even touch some random mando without disregarding her oh-so-useless years of training and experience, and instead using their clearly superior strategy of, "no man, you gotta try to hit them!"

Edited June 21, 2012 by deneric

[Aximand]

You mean aside from every Mandalorian and his grandma kicking Jaina Solo's - THE SWORD OF THE JEDI - ***? Now, I'm not saying Boba Fett wouldn't give her a good thrashing, but she couldn't even touch some random mando without disregarding her oh-so-useless years of training and experience, and instead using their clearly superior strategy of, "no man, you gotta try to hit them!"

 

I'm saying he wouldn't be able to touch her. There is absolutely no canonical evidence in the history of Star Wars that Boba Fett has any success in fighting fully trained Jedi Knights (or even partially trained, in the case of Luke Skywalker on Tatooine), the best he's ever done is capture a padawan that never completed her training. And this is Jaina "I kill Vong for a workout" Solo. Its so clear that Traviss had no freaking clue what she was doing or what she was writing about when she wrote this line.

Armor changed the game.

That right there tells us she knows next to absolutely nothing about the entire Yuuzhan Vong conflict. It further says that she shouldn't ever be writing for the Star Wars franchise until she either ate a slice of humble pie and learned how to write other characters (other than Mandalorians, and even some of them were horribly written) without utterly butchering their personality, or should have been forced to read a whole ton of Star Wars Extended Universe along with the Movie novelizations. After all, this is the lady that proudly stated that the only Star Wars novels she'd ever read were her own.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Aximand

[Mrtwo]

Beskar was used in later novels not even written by her, including the (most recent?) EU book released, Scourge.* I'm pretty sure that beskar is canonical, Jedi aren't invincible and some things should be able to take them down a notch.

 

*= Fight between a Jedi and a beskar-armored Hutt*

[Invictos]

I'm saying he wouldn't be able to touch her. There is absolutely no canonical evidence in the history of Star Wars that Boba Fett has any success in fighting fully trained Jedi Knights (or even partially trained, in the case of Luke Skywalker on Tatooine), the best he's ever done is capture a padawan that never completed her training. And this is Jaina "I kill Vong for a workout" Solo. Its so clear that Traviss had no freaking clue what she was doing or what she was writing about when she wrote this line.

 

I was about to ask about that very thing. Jaina Solo, as far as I can tell, is her generation's equivalent of (or perhaps even superior to)

, after all. And she's the daughter of Han Solo.

 

(Ok, ok. That last link is a bit of a cheap shot, I admit it. )

 

In any case, I'm not the most EU-knowledgeable Star Wars fan. I read Legacy of the Force because I became morbidly fascinated with the Karen Traviss controversy, but I have only a passing understanding of anything that came before or since. That said, I do wonder why Boba Fett gets so much credit for being a great Jedi killer. There doesn't appear to be any evidence to support that idea, except for innuendo in Traviss' own books.

 

Which brings us back to the main problem here, in my mind: If you came to the EU through Traviss' work -- and/or you enjoy Traviss' spin on SW more than other authors' -- then you will naturally take her side in any debate about the appropriateness of the stories she told, because you've already bought into her characterizations. You are, in essence, assuming your own conclusion: relying on evidence (consciously or not) from Traviss herself to justify her decisions.

 

But what's important here is the contrast between Traviss' treatment of various characters and everyone else's treatment of those same characters. Everyone is certainly entitled to prefer Traviss' interpretation of the SW universe; hell, for awhile, I think LucasArts very much enjoyed the fact that she appealed to a different flavor of fan. Still, whether you like Traviss or not, it seems obvious to me that she abused established canon. That she may have done so inadvertently isn't important, and in fact her prideful ignorance of the source material is itself a bit of an affront.

 

If I started a new job by proudly refusing to learn anything about the company that hired me, I probably wouldn't last very long. As it turned out, Traviss didn't last very long either, but she still probably lasted longer than she should have.

[Mirdthestrill]

That an illusion of Ben would be enough to lower her guard. THAT right there says Traviss threw it all out the window. That she would relent because she saw her enemy appear as her son? No. You've never read any of Zahn's novels about her, have you? I suggest reading everything again, from the Thrawn trilogy on down the line.

 

I OWN every single Zahn novel excepting Allegiance and Choices of One. Again, I'm not saying it's the most plausible or best way for Mara to die. Besides, it wasn't like she stepped away in slow motion and dropped her weapons, the hilts clattering on the floor like in the Deceived trailer. She just slowed up for a moment, not even stopped.

[Mirdthestrill]

When Beskar, canonically, is too heavy and dense to even be used as capital ship plating, yet can be worn by her Mandalorians. That says it all, right there. Her "Saiyalorians" are now going to always live in infamy because of her trying to rewrite canon.

 

People were using Beskar armor long before Traviss works. Where are you even getting this idea that it's too heavy to use as armor? Sources, please. If that's the worst they have against them, I wouldn't say they're overpowered.

[Mirdthestrill]

You mean aside from every Mandalorian and his grandma kicking Jaina Solo's - THE SWORD OF THE JEDI - ***? Now, I'm not saying Boba Fett wouldn't give her a good thrashing, but she couldn't even touch some random mando without disregarding her oh-so-useless years of training and experience, and instead using their clearly superior strategy of, "no man, you gotta try to hit them!"

 

Hmmm...every Mando? That would be impressive. How about closer to...two. Of their best warriors. And she starts winning after two matches. How improbable. Sword of the Jedi means she has the potential, not that she automatically has the power. She also hasn't fought a Sith in a long time, having spent most of her time killing crabs and bugs.

[Liquidacid]

Fortunately, her "Super Saiyalorian" Mandalorian novels have already been retconned by novels by her former colleagues that brought them back to a "Captain America" level from the "Goku" levels she had them at. There is no longer "Lightsaber Proof armor", and they can no longer single-handedly take down a Jedi or Sith. Very few Mandalorians ever accomplished those feats, but in her little universe, they could ALL do it. Also, Mandalorian "pacifists"... ugh. Sorry, but in a warrior culture like theirs, pacifism is a big no no. She is VERY anti-Jedi, and that showed when she killed off Mara Jade in such a lame way.

 

you really need to actually read the books instead of making up your own lore and trying to pass your opinion about characters and what authors think off as fact... by the way FoTJ is lore and the lightsaber proof armor is still in.. hell it's been in lore since before her first SW book

[Mirdthestrill]

I'm saying he wouldn't be able to touch her. There is absolutely no canonical evidence in the history of Star Wars that Boba Fett has any success in fighting fully trained Jedi Knights (or even partially trained, in the case of Luke Skywalker on Tatooine), the best he's ever done is capture a padawan that never completed her training. And this is Jaina "I kill Vong for a workout" Solo. Its so clear that Traviss had no freaking clue what she was doing or what she was writing about when she wrote this line.

 

That right there tells us she knows next to absolutely nothing about the entire Yuuzhan Vong conflict. It further says that she shouldn't ever be writing for the Star Wars franchise until she either ate a slice of humble pie and learned how to write other characters (other than Mandalorians, and even some of them were horribly written) without utterly butchering their personality, or should have been forced to read a whole ton of Star Wars Extended Universe along with the Movie novelizations. After all, this is the lady that proudly stated that the only Star Wars novels she'd ever read were her own.

 

Given those standards, we have no evidence of half the things that happened in the Star Wars Universe, because we would be disbelieving the author's narration. Sooo...she's caught off-guard by a new fighting style...in one battle...against one of the best non-force-using warrior cultures in the galaxy. How very strange and unlikely. Especially considering that she starts destroying them after two scenes. Yeah, that would never happen.

[Liquidacid]

Given those standards, we have no evidence of half the things that happened in the Star Wars Universe, because we would be disbelieving the author's narration. Sooo...she's caught off-guard by a new fighting style...in one battle...against one of the best non-force-using warrior cultures in the galaxy. How very strange and unlikely. Especially considering that she starts destroying them after two scenes. Yeah, that would never happen.

 

let's also not forget that in established lore said warrior culture has battled against the jedi many many times... it's not like they are new to the fighting jedi game

[Mirdthestrill]

you really need to actually read the books instead of making up your own lore and trying to pass your opinion about characters and what authors think off as fact... by the way FoTJ is lore and the lightsaber proof armor is still in.. hell it's been in lore since before her first SW book

 

Apparently, every bad thing in LotF was either Traviss's idea or heavily supported by Traviss, and she had no influence on anything good. Seriously, guys, just because Jaina gets surprised by a new fighting style in a couple battles doesn't mean that you have to go on a crusade against Traviss.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Mirdthestrill

[Mirdthestrill]

So we've established that she didn't break Beskar canon. Really the only main "breaking canon" accusations that can be made is that she wrote the character in a different direction. Sometimes that just happens. Besides, all the stuff Traviss haters care about has been changed. They were downgraded in FotJ, which I'm fine with. What is there left that's sustaining this anger? Anger leads to hate, and hate...leads to long arguments like this...

[Liquidacid]

Apparently, every bad thing in FotJ was either Traviss's idea or heavily supported by Traviss, and she had no influence on anything good. Seriously, guys, just because Jaina gets surprised by a new fighting style in a couple battles doesn't mean that you have to go on a crusade against Traviss.

 

meh... I just laugh because pretty much everyone's argument against her or about the whole publishing process is opinion or straight up incorrect information and they claim it's established lore or fact

 

I'm pretty sure they just want to use her as a scapegoat for things they don't like

 

also I think you mean LoTF not FoTJ.. as Mara died in LoTF and Traviss didn't write any books in the FoTJ series

Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Zerixkun]

Karen Traviss was actually one of my favorite SW writers. She wasn't the best writer in the WORLD, but I looked forward to every one of her SW books and own them all. However, I don't really like her as a person based on certain blog posts. I don't understand all the hate for her writing though. Everyone saying she made Mando gary stus are exaggerating greatly. And what's this about beskar being lightsaber PROOF? It's lightsaber RESISTANT. There IS a difference. It's also been used in plenty of other works besides Traviss's before and after.

[Liquidacid]

honestly if anyone has been made OP in the EU lately it's Luke.... compared to what we see Jedi doing in other SW works he is damn near a GOD now

[Wolfninjajedi]

honestly if anyone has been made OP in the EU lately it's Luke.... compared to what we see Jedi doing in other SW works he is damn near a GOD now

 

Well being fair, Luke wasn't that way from the start. Luke was worked into being as such, which to me that is fine because its not like at the flip of a switch he became so. Really if a character becomes OP, the character in question needs to work at it.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Captain_Zone]

you really need to actually read the books instead of making up your own lore and trying to pass your opinion about characters and what authors think off as fact... by the way FoTJ is lore and the lightsaber proof armor is still in.. hell it's been in lore since before her first SW book

 

I read them. And no it isn't. Lightsaber resistant armor is in. For the moment. Big difference between resistant and proof.

[Liquidacid]

Well being fair, Luke wasn't that way from the start. Luke was worked into being as such, which to me that is fine because its not like at the flip of a switch he became so. Really if a character becomes OP, the character in question needs to work at it.

 

meh... he kinda had a huge leap in his abilities when the NJO series started... I mean I understand he had to be able to match the Vong but pre-Vong to Vector Prime he had a massive increase in his power which just increased exponentially since then... and now by FoTJ he can pretty much just walk over anything the galaxy has to offer

 

I read them. And no it isn't. Lightsaber resistant armor is in. For the moment. Big difference between resistant and proof.

 

again no... it was never stated as more than it currently is... Travis had it scorch and cut with a lightsaber the same as it did in FoTJ... again you are ignoring the actual lore to exaggerate the problem simply because you don't like a writer

Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Captain_Zone]

People were using Beskar armor long before Traviss works. Where are you even getting this idea that it's too heavy to use as armor? Sources, please. If that's the worst they have against them, I wouldn't say they're overpowered.

 

I suggest you read up on Beskar then, and stop believing the garbage put out by Traviss. What they call "Beskar" in those books might not even BE Beskar. But either way, it's NOT supposed to be Lightsaber proof. Resistant, maybe. But then, for the longest time, Cortosis was the only Lightsaber resistant material in Star Wars.

[Invictos]

Given those standards, we have no evidence of half the things that happened in the Star Wars Universe, because we would be disbelieving the author's narration.

 

And you appear to be using Traviss' narration to justify Traviss' characterizations. You are assuming your own conclusion.

[Liquidacid]

I suggest you read up on Beskar then, and stop believing the garbage put out by Traviss. What they call "Beskar" in those books might not even BE Beskar. But either way, it's NOT supposed to be Lightsaber proof. Resistant, maybe. But then, for the longest time, Cortosis was the only Lightsaber resistant material in Star Wars.

 

I suggest you read up

 

Cortosis, Phrik, Armorweave, Sith alchemy, Mandalorian iron, Weapons imbued with the power of the Force, Vong tech... some of those have been around since the comics and books in the mid 90s before Cortosis was even brought into lore in 98... and most of them have been called by the misnomer "lightsaber proof"... hell even Zahn's version of Cortosis has been retconed... not to mention Mandalorian Iron (Beskar) first appeared in lore in Tales of the Jedi: The Freedon Nadd Uprising which was in 94 well before Cortosis so it was never " the only Lightsaber resistant material in Star Wars"

 

saying it's "light saber proof armor" in this context is the same as saying a "bullet proof vest" .... both are really nothing but resistant but that is the standard misnomers ... no where in any book by Travis is the armor portrayed as 100 percent impervious to lightsabers

 

if you don't like Travis's writing just state your opinion... but please stop trying to use hyperbole and incorrect facts to make it a fact

Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Invictos]

I suggest you read up

 

Cortosis, Phrik, Armorweave, Sith alchemy, Mandalorian iron, Weapons imbued with the power of the Force, Vong tech... some of those have been around since the comics and books in the mid 90s before Cortosis was even brought into lore..

 

Am I the only one who's amused by the fact that a conversation about Traviss -- an author who very nearly boasted about not reading any of the EU herself -- has turned into a you-should-read-the-EU pissing contest?

[Liquidacid]

Am I the only one who's amused by the fact that a conversation about Traviss -- an author who very nearly boasted about not reading any of the EU herself -- has turned into a you-should-read-the-EU pissing contest?

 

ya that is kinda weird... but I can't just sit here and read people posting completely incorrect facts and claiming they are otherwise... for me it's like seeing someone post "2+2=5" or "Abraham Lincoln was Chinese"... I can't help myself... lol

Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Aurbere]

Am I the only one who's amused by the fact that a conversation about Traviss -- an author who very nearly boasted about not reading any of the EU herself -- has turned into a you-should-read-the-EU pissing contest?

 

I actually find it amusing as well. Why can't we all just get along?