Who here actually likes Karen Traviss?

[Mirdthestrill]

Weren't those the episodes that she wrote? I may have her mixed up with someone else, but I remember hearing her name mentioned as the writer for those episodes.

 

Nope. Written by completely different people. Bizarre and incorrect no matter who wrote it.

[Liquidacid]

Ah, but there's the rub-out. She set out to kill Mara Jade. She, figuratively speaking, spat in the face of Tim Zahn and all the other members of the ExU writing pool when she did that. From all reports I read, she knew that Tim was working on a new Mara Jade novel, but she never even consulted him. She also ignored or bashed down anyone who protested what she was doing.

 

The long and short is, she is NOT a team player. She made arbitrary decisions on what SHE wanted to do, and The Force help anyone who said anything different. As I said before, the real world fiction story I read of hers was good. She just can't write Star Wars with her attitude. Imo, she should never have been hired by LL in the first place.

 

that's not really correct... since before she could publish ANYTHING she had to get permission from the people who oversee canon and then they had to approve of it afterward same as they do for all the other authors... Mara's death was approved before any of the authors doing the series even began actually writing because it was on the overview that they ALL read before hand and as I said was approved... it wouldn't have been her spitting in anyone's face... it would be those who oversee SW lore and approved it.. now it may have been her idea or suggestion but she has no authority... blame those with the authority... If I say I want to bomb France then the President says "OK" and pushes the red button it's certainly not my fault... I had no means or authority to do it that was all him making the actual decision

 

I mean I like some of her books and some I don't like... but if I'm gonna blame someone for bad lore or plot in one it's gonna be those who actually had the authority and approved it... *********** Howard Roffman!

Edited June 20, 2012 by Liquidacid

[ProfessorWalsh]

Before I post a long, drawn-out post regarding Walsh's rebuttal, what does everyone think of the RC books? Most of the problems you're bringing up have to do with her LotF novels.

 

I was actually mostly okay with the first RC book. The series quickly devolved into bad Mando fanfic territory. The apex of which is when a Jedi Master who is known for his ability to debate is confronted about all of the outright lies that Karen's Mandos spread through the book and he doesn't refute them, he doesn't even deny them, he simply says, "Is that how they see us." and looks ashamed.

 

In truth he should have shook that to the ground. He should have set the record straight and he should have gotten the Mandos so angry when he did it that they were ready to spit when he revealed their hypocrisy.

 

Mando: "You Jedi kidnap children and indoctrinate them!"

 

Jedi Master: "Hardly. We don't take children without parental consent unless it is done because the child is in danger. Like you are one to talk anyway, your entire culture revolves around attacking defenseless colonies, murdering the men, then taking the women and children as slaves which you then adopt into your social castes."

 

Mando: "Uhm... No... We... Uh... You Jedi think that you are better than everyone else! You are elitist!"

 

Jedi Master: "Elitist? It is true that we only allow those who are Force Sensitive to become Padawans and Jedi Knights however that is hardly the only criteria, it takes years of training and even among Force Sensitives only a small percentage can pass the trials to become a Padawan and even smaller still a Jedi Knight. As to not allowing non-Force Sensitives into the Jedi Order there are plenty of non-Force Sensitives in the Agricorps, Exploritory Corps, Educorps, and Medicorps. Also, as for being better than everyone else... You have that backward, we serve the Republic, we aren't served by the Republic. A Jedi spends his or her whole life in servitude to the Republic and to the Force, how that is elitist is far beyond me. Also, for someone who constantly heralds the Mandalorian people and their greatness you seem rather odd calling anyone elitist."

[Captain_Zone]

that's not really correct... since before she could publish ANYTHING she had to get permission from the people who oversea canon and then they had to approve of it afterward same as they do for all the other authors... Mara's death was approved before any of the authors doing the series even began actually writing because it was on the overview that they ALL read before hand and as I said was approved... it wouldn't have been her spitting in anyone's face... it would be those who oversee SW lore and approved it.. now it may have been her idea or suggestion but she has no authority... blame those with the authority... If I say I want to bomb France then the President says "OK" and pushes the red button it's certainly not my fault... I had no means or authority to do it that was all him making the actual decision

 

I mean I like some of her books and some I don't like... but if I'm gonna blame someone for bad lore or plot in one it's gonna be those who actually had the authority and approved it... *********** Howard Roffman!

 

Just because she got it approved through LL doesn't mean she got it approved by her colleagues. Two different things. Timothy Zahn and quite a few others already had works underway when she announced she was killing off Mara Jade, so they had to scrap their novels with Mara in them so they could fit in with Traviss's. She got her manuscript done first, and got it approved before they had a chance to react. Leland Chee and Howard Roffman really aren't to blame. It's not their job to keep characters alive, except for George's Big Three. They don't give a damn about who gets killed, as long as it isn't Luke, Leia, or Han. That's why Traviss got away with it.

 

Also, I've admitted that her non-Star Wars work is at least passable, and sometimes even good. However, there are still plenty of other military fiction authors who are much better than she is.

 

Traviss just made the other authors' lives miserable during her (thankfully) brief tenure with the ExU writing squad.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[Mirdthestrill]

I was actually mostly okay with the first RC book. The series quickly devolved into bad Mando fanfic territory. The apex of which is when a Jedi Master who is known for his ability to debate is confronted about all of the outright lies that Karen's Mandos spread through the book and he doesn't refute them, he doesn't even deny them, he simply says, "Is that how they see us." and looks ashamed.

 

In truth he should have shook that to the ground. He should have set the record straight and he should have gotten the Mandos so angry when he did it that they were ready to spit when he revealed their hypocrisy.

 

Mando: "You Jedi kidnap children and indoctrinate them!"

 

Jedi Master: "Hardly. We don't take children without parental consent unless it is done because the child is in danger. Like you are one to talk anyway, your entire culture revolves around attacking defenseless colonies, murdering the men, then taking the women and children as slaves which you then adopt into your social castes."

 

Mando: "Uhm... No... We... Uh... You Jedi think that you are better than everyone else! You are elitist!"

 

Jedi Master: "Elitist? It is true that we only allow those who are Force Sensitive to become Padawans and Jedi Knights however that is hardly the only criteria, it takes years of training and even among Force Sensitives only a small percentage can pass the trials to become a Padawan and even smaller still a Jedi Knight. As to not allowing non-Force Sensitives into the Jedi Order there are plenty of non-Force Sensitives in the Agricorps, Exploritory Corps, Educorps, and Medicorps. Also, as for being better than everyone else... You have that backward, we serve the Republic, we aren't served by the Republic. A Jedi spends his or her whole life in servitude to the Republic and to the Force, how that is elitist is far beyond me. Also, for someone who constantly heralds the Mandalorian people and their greatness you seem rather odd calling anyone elitist."

 

At this point in the story, we receive several inferences that General Arligan Zey is not only incredibly disillusioned with the war, but also with the Republic. Even coming from an enemy-turned-ally, it would be rather shocking to hear that the order you've given your life to protect is viewed as a tribe of baby-stealers by an entire culture. At this point in history, the Jedi have become more like a corporation than a group of peace-keepers, beginning to do things that benefit only the Jedi. Their vision was clouded. Admittedly, Palpatine was a powerful Sith, but he lived among them for years undetected. The Jedi were on the decline in these years. In addition to the previously stated, the Mandalorians have been generally honorable (as far as he knows) with him so far. All of this combined probably made it at least a minor shock.

 

Also, they're at the point at the war here where no one really cares anymore. Zey might not have liked what the Mandalorians said, but we see from other conversations that the war has drained him, mentally and physically. There's the additional possibility that Zey simply didn't care enough about there opinion enough to correct them. I think assuming Traviss did it specifically to put down Jedi is illogical. You also have to remember that all the negative thoughts of the Mandalorians toward Jedi are natural and correct according to canon. If you're going to write about Mandalorians, one of their basic traits is that they hate Jedi. Like it or not, the novels are accurate in that respect.

 

So are you upset at the way they portray Jedi and canon characters as speaking and thinking, or do you just not like the attitude of the books? I can respect the latter, as everyone has books/styles they don't like. The former seems to be demanding that Star Wars always goes the way you want it to. In the end, it just comes down to the fact that you don't like the way the story went. I don't like the way Denning went in a lot of his books, but at some point you have to say, "All right; Next book" and move on. Why continue to hate Karen Traviss when we've moved on to another series and all the things you care about have been altered?

[Liquidacid]

However, there are still plenty of other military fiction authors who are much better than she is.

 

that I will agree with you on... as a military author she is bad... I much prefer like John Ringo (Legacy of the Aldenata) and John G. Hemry (Lost Fleet)...

 

but again you can't just blame her for Mara's death... first you have to understand when writing for an IP owned by someone else you need to accept the fact, as a writer, you don't own or get any say in what happens to characters you created in other works... second the event outline and timeline for the series was finished, approved and seen by all the authors writing that series before the first book was even released so they knew what was going to happen, and third as a reader or writer of an IP as large as SW you can not always have your way and with so many many different writers involved there will undoubtedly be things you don't like... at the end of the day LL has all the power and everything that happens in SW novels is because they said so... SW writers may get some leeway but they can't just do whatever they want so long as they don't kill off Han Luke or Leia if they expect it to be published and get into lore

 

I'm not saying she is blame less... just that all the blame does not belong to her because the higher ups were the ones who gave her the go and then approved the final product

Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid

[ProfessorWalsh]

So are you upset at the way they portray Jedi and canon characters as speaking and thinking, or do you just not like the attitude of the books? I can respect the latter, as everyone has books/styles they don't like. The former seems to be demanding that Star Wars always goes the way you want it to. In the end, it just comes down to the fact that you don't like the way the story went. I don't like the way Denning went in a lot of his books, but at some point you have to say, "All right; Next book" and move on. Why continue to hate Karen Traviss when we've moved on to another series and all the things you care about have been altered?

 

The former. And not the "way they portray" it is specifically only the way Karen Traviss portrays them. They are never portrayed that way in any other Star Wars novel by any other author. She not only has Mandos not like Jedi, she has Jedi not like Jedi, Jedi unable to rebuff the lies of the Mandos, in the case of LotF she has Jedi thinking in Mando and Jedi idolizing Mandos.

 

Reading LotF was like reading a Mando'a lesson. Even Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker thought in Mandalorian. Heck, Mara Jade sees her son Ben Skywalker, wearing GAG armor and fondly thinks that he looks like a brave Mandalorian and she thinks how Mandalorian children are given armor as children and she actually uses, and then has to explain, Mandolorian words that she uses that she has no reason to use.

 

The problem with Karen Traviss is that all she can write is Mandalorians and Mandos. Reading her novels is like reading Mandalorian fanfiction and reading Star Wars as interpreted by a Boba Fett fangirl.

 

Heck the episode of Robot Chicken that had Boba Fett come back from the dead is about the level of Karen Traviss fan fiction.

 

I mean heck reading it she sounded like a pokemon: "Mando? Mando Boba! Boba Mando Jango! Mando! Beskar Boba Jango Fett Fett Beskar Mando!"

Edited June 20, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Invictos]

The former. And not the "way they portray" it is specifically only the way Karen Traviss portrays them. They are never portrayed that way in any other Star Wars novel by any other author. She not only has Mandos not like Jedi, she has Jedi not like Jedi, Jedi unable to rebuff the lies of the Mandos, in the case of LotF she has Jedi thinking in Mando and Jedi idolizing Mandos.

 

Reading LotF was like reading a Mando'a lesson. Even Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker thought in Mandalorian. Heck, Mara Jade sees her son Ben Skywalker, wearing GAG armor and fondly thinks that he looks like a brave Mandalorian and she thinks how Mandalorian children are given armor as children and she actually uses, and then has to explain, Mandolorian words that she uses that she has no reason to use.

 

The problem with Karen Traviss is that all she can write is Mandalorians and Mandos. Reading her novels is like reading Mandalorian fanfiction and reading Star Wars as interpreted by a Boba Fett fangirl.

 

Heck the episode of Robot Chicken that had Boba Fett come back from the dead is about the level of Karen Traviss fan fiction.

 

I mean heck reading it she sounded like a pokemon: "Mando? Mando Boba! Boba Mando Jango! Mando! Beskar Boba Jango Fett Fett Beskar Mando!"

 

Excellent post. You've summed up the problem with Traviss very well. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with her focusing on Mandalorians. There is nothing wrong with her depicting Mandalorians who express strong (and to some, controversial) opinions. But Traviss went a step further; she abused her power as the author to force everyone else to agree with, or stammer impotently in response to, Mandalorian opinion.

 

It's no wonder that her fans (however many or few there really are) are so zealous in their support of Traviss: if they genuinely like her vision of Star Wars (and keep in mind, I'm not saying anyone's wrong to like her work), all other SW material must seem not only alien, but repugnant. Reading Traviss is the equivalent of reading a frothing-at-the-mouth political-partisan newspaper or a strawman political allegory; it's huge shock to read anything else afterwards.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Invictos

[RobNightfall]

Fortunately, her "Super Saiyalorian" Mandalorian novels have already been retconned by novels by her former colleagues that brought them back to a "Captain America" level from the "Goku" levels she had them at. There is no longer "Lightsaber Proof armor", and they can no longer single-handedly take down a Jedi or Sith. Very few Mandalorians ever accomplished those feats, but in her little universe, they could ALL do it. Also, Mandalorian "pacifists"... ugh. Sorry, but in a warrior culture like theirs, pacifism is a big no no. She is VERY anti-Jedi, and that showed when she killed off Mara Jade in such a lame way.

 

Mandalorian iron being resistant to lightsabers wasn't her idea, just so you know. It's from the comics, which happened way before her novels. And Lucas was cool with it the whole way.

[Aurbere]

Karen Traviss could have been a good edition to Star Wars, but she took Mando's waaaaay too far. She made them gods among men with the ability to beat great Jedi in combat. I say great because let's face, nothing she could write would make them capable of beating Mace, Yoda or a majority of the PT and post ROTJ Jedi. Good thing they kicked her out before she thought of something am I right?

[Aurbere]

Here's an interesting question: do you prefer Traviss' Mando's over the pacifist ones in TCW?

[CassusVerda]

Here's an interesting question: do you prefer Traviss' Mando's over the pacifist ones in TCW?

 

Best of Two Evils.....

Traviss Mandos... in a heartbeat.

 

Though I still perfer Mandalorians living by KOTOR's standards. Warriors fighting for Honor and Glory.

 

The Neutral Pacifists in the TCW make me want The Death Watch to win...and prior to those episodes I was a staunch hater of the Death Watch.....

 

Karen despite what she did outside the books and in them, gave me "Badarse" Mandos that made me proud to make Armor and Costume to emulate and not some "Naboo Wannabes" masquerading under the title. They basically took what was cool about the group and made them something so totally different, that the bad and evil terrorist faction of the group is the one I'm rooting for because "they" were giving me what I want.

Edited June 21, 2012 by CassusVerda

[Wolfninjajedi]

Here's an interesting question: do you prefer Traviss' Mando's over the pacifist ones in TCW?

 

I prefer Taungs myself.

[RobNightfall]

Ah, but there's the rub-out. She set out to kill Mara Jade. She, figuratively speaking, spat in the face of Tim Zahn and all the other members of the ExU writing pool when she did that. From all reports I read, she knew that Tim was working on a new Mara Jade novel, but she never even consulted him. She also ignored or bashed down anyone who protested what she was doing.

 

The long and short is, she is NOT a team player. She made arbitrary decisions on what SHE wanted to do, and The Force help anyone who said anything different. As I said before, the real world fiction story I read of hers was good. She just can't write Star Wars with her attitude. Imo, she should never have been hired by LL in the first place.

 

I've seen this said over and over again and no proof of it. I've watched the the youtube videos people cite, and they never say Karen Traviss did this. The closest I've found was an operating theory that someone important had to die, and Traviss suggested Mara Jade. And everyone agreed and let her do it. And much like what happened to R.A. Salvatore when he took responsibility for writing Chewy's death, fans went berserk. They sent her hate mail, made threats, etc.

The Star Wars novels are written by committee, and edited by people who have the power to say, "F**k you no, you can't do that," (albeit more politely than that). A group of authors agreed to kill Mara Jade, and Chewy for that matter, and the statements that Traviss somehow worked around this process do not appear to be backed up by logic or proof. Among other things, the editors would have to be completely incompetent to not put a stop to this, and they had the authority to do so. The idea that one person somehow manipulated and overwhelmed a group of over 10 people doesn't hold up to serious examination. It's not like she marched in wearing battle armor and beat the snot out of everyone lol. And if you have proof I'm wrong, please link it so I can see it because I've gone looking and can't find it.

Karen Traviss' mistake was that when fans attacked her, she attacked back. She should have replied calmly and stated that this was not solely her decision, merely her responsibility to write it. If she had stayed calm, she would have won more allies and Lucas Arts would still be using her. What people overlook was that her writing of the Mandalorians and bringing their culture to life significantly increased the fan base of the novels. People who weren't interested were suddenly reading. Lucas Arts was excited about this, and the money it earned, and the new way of looking at old ideas that she represented. Unfortunately, she insulted thousands of fans at once instead of remaining calm.

[Aitix]

Here's an interesting question: do you prefer Traviss' Mando's over the pacifist ones in TCW?

 

No. I prefer the Mando pacifists over Traviss's Mandos. They provide an interesting change of culture for once in the Star Wars galaxy.

[Captain_Zone]

I've seen this said over and over again and no proof of it. I've watched the the youtube videos people cite, and they never say Karen Traviss did this. The closest I've found was an operating theory that someone important had to die, and Traviss suggested Mara Jade. And everyone agreed and let her do it. And much like what happened to R.A. Salvatore when he took responsibility for writing Chewy's death, fans went berserk. They sent her hate mail, made threats, etc.

The Star Wars novels are written by committee, and edited by people who have the power to say, "F**k you no, you can't do that," (albeit more politely than that). A group of authors agreed to kill Mara Jade, and Chewy for that matter, and the statements that Traviss somehow worked around this process do not appear to be backed up by logic or proof. Among other things, the editors would have to be completely incompetent to not put a stop to this, and they had the authority to do so. The idea that one person somehow manipulated and overwhelmed a group of over 10 people doesn't hold up to serious examination. It's not like she marched in wearing battle armor and beat the snot out of everyone lol. And if you have proof I'm wrong, please link it so I can see it because I've gone looking and can't find it.

Karen Traviss' mistake was that when fans attacked her, she attacked back. She should have replied calmly and stated that this was not solely her decision, merely her responsibility to write it. If she had stayed calm, she would have won more allies and Lucas Arts would still be using her. What people overlook was that her writing of the Mandalorians and bringing their culture to life significantly increased the fan base of the novels. People who weren't interested were suddenly reading. Lucas Arts was excited about this, and the money it earned, and the new way of looking at old ideas that she represented. Unfortunately, she insulted thousands of fans at once instead of remaining calm.

 

Ok, the biggest differences between R.A. Salvatore being saddled with Chewie's death and Traviss all but demanding that she be allowed to kill off Mara Jade are these:

 

1. R.A. Salvatore was handpicked and asked to do it. He was not a Star Wars author, yet everyone else there respected him enough to know he would do it right. Traviss, as I noted above, pretty much demanded that Mara die by her pen.

 

2. Chewie died in a sufficiently epic way, saving Anakin Solo's life and fulfilling his lifedebt to Han. Mara died like a chump, since Traviss completely ignored previously established lore and canon about her. Her death was exceedingly lame.

 

3. Killing Chewie off was a communal decision amongst the writers, and the honchos in charge of the team. Killing Mara was Traviss's decision, and was opposed by the other writers on the team.

 

4. Killing Chewie made sense, in a way. He went out the only way he could go out. Killing Mara made NO SENSE at all. As a "sacrifice" of a loved one, there were two better candidates already available to Jacen. Tenel-Ka and their daughter. They would have made a LOT more sense than Mara.

 

5. R.A. Salvatore went in knowing how the rabids would react to Chewie's death. He handled the obligatory death threats and everything with style and class. Traviss ended up dubbing Star Wars fans in general "talifans" when she melted down completely under the rabids' verbal and written assaults.

 

Traviss did it for the shock value. Nothing less than that. She wanted to flex her muscles and say "I just killed off one of the most popular characters in the Expanded Universe." And yet, she went to great lengths to keep Boba Fett alive. If you ask her, she quit. If you ask the guys at LL, they refuse to talk about it. The only times people refuse to talk about a former employee leaving is if that employee got fired, or was given the option to quit or get fired.

 

I have been more than fair to her as far as her non-Star Wars novels. Some of which are actually good. But as far as Star Wars goes, the Expanded Universe is better off without her.

[Aurbere]

Best of Two Evils.....

Traviss Mandos... in a heartbeat.

 

Though I still perfer Mandalorians living by KOTOR's standards. Warriors fighting for Honor and Glory.

 

The Neutral Pacifists in the TCW make me want The Death Watch to win...and prior to those episodes I was a staunch hater of the Death Watch.....

 

Karen despite what she did outside the books and in them, gave me "Badarse" Mandos that made me proud to make Armor and Costume to emulate and not some "Naboo Wannabes" masquerading under the title. They basically took what was cool about the group and made them something so totally different, that the bad and evil terrorist faction of the group is the one I'm rooting for because "they" were giving me what I want.

 

I fully agree. Those pacifist chumps have to go. If I was Dooku I would invade just because of the disrespect they are showing to the late great Jango Fett and the great Mandalore's of the past. Dooku had great respect for Jango and the Mandalorian culture.

[Aurbere]

I prefer Taungs myself.

 

Agreed. They are a good balance between Saiyalorians and Pacifist Mandos. They wage war well, but know how to be at peace. But they like war, don't they?

[CassusVerda]

Agreed. They are a good balance between Saiyalorians and Pacifist Mandos. They wage war well, but know how to be at peace. But they like war, don't they?

 

It's funny that people are using the term Saiyalorians, when Saiyans and Mandalorians have a lot in common. Minus the whole Glowy Hair and Giant Ape during the Full Moon thing.

Edited June 21, 2012 by CassusVerda

[Forgon]

Here's an interesting question: do you prefer Traviss' Mando's over the pacifist ones in TCW?

 

The New Mandalorians. Introducing a third faction that is complete distinct from the True Mandalorians and Death Watch who refer to faction who want to reject the culture that fails them? I can live with that, so long as the True Mandalorians and Death Watch remain in canon and then Satine's order is overthrown as it is said in the chronology and implied in Season 5's trailer.

[Mirdthestrill]

. Mara died like a chump, since Traviss completely ignored previously established lore and canon about her. Her death was exceedingly lame.

 

Where are you getting these accusations of "Ignoring canon and lore"? Mara had all her powers, all her abilities, and stomped Jacen into the ground until he used the poison darts. It probably wasn't the best way for her to go out, but it sure wasn't the worst.

[BradTheImpaler]

I've been ticked off by how some characters have been killed, but in Mara's case I don't see that as a huge issue. She had him on the ropes, and wasn't fooled by his little act. I'm sure it should have taken more than a single poison dart to take down a woman who survived the coomb spores, and who should have been just as good as any average Jedi, if not better, at resisting poisons, but at least it seemed pretty clear that Jacen struggled in a direct confrontation.

 

I don't agree with her anti-Jedi attitude, but the way she wrote the Mandalorians really wasn't so horrible. Maybe they were overpowered, but Mandalorian armor really is notoriously tough, and Mandalorian culture can evolve just like any other, over time. The Neo-Crusaders were interesting and all, but in the Legacy era thousands of years had since passed, and the Mandalorians had been scattered for a while.

[Mirdthestrill]

Here's a question for everyone: Where are you getting the idea that Traviss Mandos are "overpowered"? When do they ever do anything that qualifies them as more powerful than a Mandalorian should be?

[Captain_Zone]

Where are you getting these accusations of "Ignoring canon and lore"? Mara had all her powers, all her abilities, and stomped Jacen into the ground until he used the poison darts. It probably wasn't the best way for her to go out, but it sure wasn't the worst.

 

That an illusion of Ben would be enough to lower her guard. THAT right there says Traviss threw it all out the window. That she would relent because she saw her enemy appear as her son? No. You've never read any of Zahn's novels about her, have you? I suggest reading everything again, from the Thrawn trilogy on down the line.

[Captain_Zone]

Here's a question for everyone: Where are you getting the idea that Traviss Mandos are "overpowered"? When do they ever do anything that qualifies them as more powerful than a Mandalorian should be?

 

When Beskar, canonically, is too heavy and dense to even be used as capital ship plating, yet can be worn by her Mandalorians. That says it all, right there. Her "Saiyalorians" are now going to always live in infamy because of her trying to rewrite canon.