Pick YOUR poison

[Briggs_Knightly]

Anyone who knows anything about PVP (obviously not anyone who works at Bio-ware), knows that a nerf is much needed to the PT class. Even the honest PTs that I have chatted with know that they are WAY OP.

 

I have not played a PT so I do not know the intricacies of the class. As such, I have feelings about what should be done to balance this class but can not say for sure.

 

If you all who play PTs had to chose an honest nerf that would bring more fair balance, what would you recommend???

[kitsinni]

I would recommend that people that don't know the mechanics of a class should not call for nerfs because they have no business doing so.

[Hethroin]

Anyone who knows anything about PVP (obviously not anyone who works at Bio-ware), knows that a nerf is much needed to the PT class. Even the honest PTs that I have chatted with know that they are WAY OP.

 

I have not played a PT so I do not know the intricacies of the class. As such, I have feelings about what should be done to balance this class but can not say for sure.

 

If you all who play PTs had to chose an honest nerf that would bring more fair balance, what would you recommend???

 

On my Vanguard I play along side a scoundrel and a sentinel that produce the same kinds of numbers at the end of a warzone the damage dealt, kills (DBs), and deaths. So I would argue that pyros do not need a nerf.

[CBRGhostRider]

Our burst is amazing. Burst is all we have.

 

No stealth (like assassins/operatives).

No reflect (marauder rebuke).

No healing us through our attacks (like sintanks).

1 defensive bubble, on a 2 min cooldown. (compare to UR, cloak of pain, saber ward, obfuscate, etc. etc)

1 semi-moderate self heal over 15 seconds, which requires you to be pro-active. If you pop it when you are getting low on health, you are already dead. (compare to juggernauts endure pain - 30% instantly to max health).

1 grapple on a moderate cooldown. (compare to force charge 15s cd)

One 4s stun, and one 2.5s AoE stun (compare to flashbang 8 LONG seconds and AoE too... node cap anyone?).

No knockbacks.

No cleanse.

No escape mechanism (intercede, force speed, force camo)

No actual heals (other than aforementioned kolto tank).

 

My question to you is, if you want to nerf our burst, what do you think we should get in return to compensate for it?

Follow up note... so you nerf our burst, and give us more utility... and to be fair do this sort of *normalization* across the board for all classes... then we are left with one class and no variety.

 

BTW, if we even have 2 competent players on us, we go down fast, as it should be! (Unlike a couple of other classes).

 

TL;DR : If the burst is nerfed, something else that is substantial must be given in return.

(I know I didn't answer your question, but better to have a discussion first.)

Edited June 15, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Briggs_Knightly]

Our burst is amazing. Burst is all we have.

 

TL;DR : If the burst is nerfed, something else that is substantial must be given in return.

(I know I didn't answer your question, but better to have a discussion first.)

 

I do not think it has to be major... I was thinking something along the lines of putting FB on a 6 second cooldown and/or increasing the heat cost so it can't be spammed. Maybe even make a few adjustments to the optional skills in the 1st 2 tiers that are available.

 

Too many times I've seen bad PTs win easily just by spamming FB and RS. The multiple bonuses available make those 2 OP because they have increased damage, increased crit, increased penetration, etc... I understand that PT is mostly a dps class but it has to be slowed down some even according to the PTs on my server.

 

I like discussions... that's why I posted this. But, people who say silly things like this class is balanced right now are delusional.

[fallenjedi]

this whole conversation is pointless. If you don't play a PT then you obviously have no basis to argue about ANYTHING that is OP or what needs to be nerfed.

 

do us a favor, lvl to 50 as a PT, then comeback and we'll talk.

 

 

You're whole argument is akin to this:

you: I know nothing about wine but let me tell you what you can do to improve the oak undertones in this cabernet

wine producer: ummm, yeah....how about you ****

Edited June 15, 2012 by fallenjedi

[Jayshames]

Anyone who knows anything about PVP (obviously not anyone who works at Bio-ware), knows that a nerf is much needed to the PT class. Even the honest PTs that I have chatted with know that they are WAY OP.

 

I have not played a PT so I do not know the intricacies of the class. As such, I have feelings about what should be done to balance this class but can not say for sure.

 

If you all who play PTs had to chose an honest nerf that would bring more fair balance, what would you recommend???

 

Anyone who actually has any form of decent gear can produce the same numbers, it's all about how you play. Yes powertechs have a very, very high amount of DPS, but what they have in DPS, they lack in survivability. Don't come on forum to make a whole thread aboutnerfing a class just because someones probably made you a bit angry by killing you a few times.

 

EDIT: A sorc spamming lightning can produce the same numbers with less effort, at the cost of a few more skill tree points.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Jayshames

[Hethroin]

... I was thinking something along the lines of putting FB on a 6 second cooldown and/or increasing the heat cost so it can't be spammed. ...

 

FB already can not be spammed.

FB is in line with other similar abilities. Those abilities being:

 

Double Strike (shadow), Snipe (gunslinger), Slash (sentinel/guardian), Quick Shot or Sucker Punch (scoundrel).

 

All those classes have spec lines to increase the burst damage provided by these semi-spammable attacks. These attacks in many cases cause other things to come off cooldown, or have a chance to proc additional damage very much like the PT. If all you use is those you run out of resources, just like the PT using FB every CGD.

 

Putting a cooldown on FB will require that the PT recieves a new skill that can be spammed, or allowing rapid fire to also reset Rail Shot.

[CBRGhostRider]

I do not think it has to be major... I was thinking something along the lines of putting FB on a 6 second cooldown and/or increasing the heat cost so it can't be spammed. Maybe even make a few adjustments to the optional skills in the 1st 2 tiers that are available.

 

Too many times I've seen bad PTs win easily just by spamming FB and RS. The multiple bonuses available make those 2 OP because they have increased damage, increased crit, increased penetration, etc... I understand that PT is mostly a dps class but it has to be slowed down some even according to the PTs on my server.

 

I like discussions... that's why I posted this. But, people who say silly things like this class is balanced right now are delusional.

 

I have both a merc pyro and a PT pyro at 50. Mercs get a spammable power shot (that procs RS). It is channelled, because they are ranged. PTs get flame burst (which procs RS) which isn't channeled because they are *melee ranged*. Both skills (power shot and flame burst) do comparable damage and both are without cooldowns.

 

Considering that the build revolves around fishing for RS procs, we kind of need at least 1 skill that we can cast without worrying about cd. The fact that RS won't proc twice within 6 seconds was a nerf that was done for balance in 1.2, and guarantees that we won't keep RS you non-stop. Also spamming FB constantly will over-heat us very quick, its better to weave in rapid shots, while waiting for the 6 sec window to expire, before trying FB/RP again. You might think a PT pyro can spam FB and win against you, but if he does that, he is maxed out on heat, and useless to the team....

 

Snipers bring comparable damage to PT pyros, but a lot more utility in terms of their knockbacks and roots... making them hard to 1v1. But they are off on the side pew-pewing and most of the times you dont even realize how much they damage you because you don't see them in the thick of things. Marauders bring similar type of damage, with many more and better defensive cooldowns.

 

And the thing is, the damage that is put out by all three classes is perfectly fine. We are dps after all! If you start toning down our damage skills in our trees, then what does this class have to offer?

 

You tell me honestly, what else do you think a PT pyro can do, besides burst? (And grappling the occasional ball carrier into a trap in huttball). If you make our burst/damage mediocre, why should anyone play this class?

 

Also, to re-iterate my question, if you take away burst, what do you think should be given in return to compensate?

Edited June 15, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Briggs_Knightly]

this whole conversation is pointless. If you don't play a PT then you obviously have no basis to argue about ANYTHING that is OP or what needs to be nerfed.

 

do us a favor, lvl to 50 as a PT, then comeback and we'll talk.

 

I don't actually mash the buttons as one but know what their capabilities are. My main has a valor rank > 80. I play with and against several PTs. Some good and some bad. I've chatted with both types.

 

They laugh at how easy it is for them to kill someone right now. They simply throw Explosive fuel on someone plus 3 or 4 FBs mixed in with 1 or 2 RSs and most people are at or near death. All these are instants and don't even put themselves over heat. They haven't even had to dip into any tree special abilities. If the opponent is still alive, they simply Vent Heat, Electro Dart or Carbonizes them, and finish with whatever skill he is not currently bored with.

 

If you do not feel your character is OP right now... You are either dishonest or incompetent.

 

If anyone wants to have a discussion about ways to balance this class without losing something important, I would like to continue this discussion, else, Accept whatever nerf Bioware comes up with. The 1 thing I am sure of is that a nerf is coming...

[Briggs_Knightly]

I have both a merc pyro and a PT pyro at 50. Mercs get a spammable power shot (that procs RS). It is channelled, because they are ranged. PTs get flame burst (which procs RS) which isn't channeled because they are *melee ranged*. Both skills (power shot and flame burst) do comparable damage and both are without cooldowns.

 

Power Shot has a 2 second cast time... If FB had a 2 second cast time... this would have better balance.

 

I actually think PS may be a way to introduce balance between the Merc and PT classes.

Take PS out of the Merc abilities and put it into the BH abilities.

Redesign PS to only powerup and fire the mainhand weapon.

 

Under this new PS, PTs would get a better benefit from PS than Mercs but Mercs would get a better benefit from unload than PTs. PT abilities could then be linked to PS making everyone happy (except those who want to keep PTs OP).

[Hethroin]

I don't actually mash the buttons as one but know what their capabilities are. My main has a valor rank > 80. I play with and against several PTs. Some good and some bad. I've chatted with both types.

 

I regularly chat with a DPS scoundrel that thinks he's OP, yet you don't see me on their forum asking them in what way they should be nerfed do you? Because they have already been adjusted down in the last few patches. With more burst DPS nerfs coming soon. Just like the pyro was nerfed last patch. If you are having trouble against pyros I advise learning to play your class better; they are a squishy class that will either win or die once committed to combat. They have one gap closer on a 45 second cooldown.

 

They laugh at how easy it is for them to kill someone right now. They simply throw Explosive fuel on someone plus 3 or 4 FBs mixed in with 1 or 2 RSs and most people are at or near death. All these are instants and don't even put themselves over heat. They haven't even had to dip into any tree special abilities. If the opponent is still alive, they simply Vent Heat, Electro Dart or Carbonizes them, and finish with whatever skill he is not currently bored with.

Yes, using DPS cooldowns will generally up your damage to a point where targets will not live long. Especially considering that the pyro carries a number of surge talents and the cooldown increases crit rate. This level of DPS is not sustainable, and only repeatable 15seconds every 2 minutes.

 

Using FB 4 times back to back with one free RS and one heat generating RS does, in fact, cause you to overheat. Using vent heat cannot happen more than once every 2 minutes.

 

If you do not feel your character is OP right now... You are either dishonest or incompetent.

I feel that having no stealth, speed, escape mechanic or defensive capacity to speak of, warrants that a class be able to deal decent damage. I'm not asking for more damage, I'm simply telling you that if your group is getting destroyed by pyro PTs, you guys need to look inward for a solution.

 

If anyone wants to have a discussion about ways to balance this class without losing something important, I would like to continue this discussion, else, Accept whatever nerf Bioware comes up with. The 1 thing I am sure of is that a nerf is coming...

They should nerf Operatives, discuss...

 

Ok seriously, your first suggested change was to take the only non-cd non-ae attack the PT has in any spec and put it on a cooldown. I see no reason to discuss anything with you due to your lack of knowledge about the class or its mechanics. You're trolling.

[CBRGhostRider]

Power Shot has a 2 second cast time... If FB had a 2 second cast time... this would have better balance.

 

I actually think PS may be a way to introduce balance between the Merc and PT classes.

Take PS out of the Merc abilities and put it into the BH abilities.

Redesign PS to only powerup and fire the mainhand weapon.

 

Under this new PS, PTs would get a better benefit from PS than Mercs but Mercs would get a better benefit from unload than PTs. PT abilities could then be linked to PS making everyone happy (except those who want to keep PTs OP).

 

Putting any sort of a cast time on a melee range attack is horrible IMO. Imagine marauders having a cast time on their basic spammable slash attack. Their ravage is cast time yes, but also does a TON of damage. Cast time attacks for melee are susceptible to interrupts as well as stuns and knockbacks, hence it follows that when they DO get off, they should do a lot more damage. Would you be OK making PS have a much higher damage with its cast time?

 

What about classes like snipers, that not only cannot be jumped to while in cover (so you have to walk to them), but cannot be interrupted either (when you get to them in cover). Then they knock you back and root you and laugh as they snipe you. Or marauders that pop one of their numerous cooldowns and keep slashing away? Or sintanks that heal as they attack you? I think snipers/sintanks/marauders are a tad OP compared to PTs in many other areas.

 

Also, what would PT pyros get in return for this nerf? Or am I hearing that nothing be given in return?

 

Honestly dude, I understand where you are coming from. Facing down a PT pyro with all his cooldowns up is a horrible experience for most people. But this only happens once in a while, and PTs have nothing else to offer (some taunts, and situational grapple notwithstanding). They are really squishy, and they go down just as easily as they take others down.... a.k.a. balanced! This is why I think PTs are in a fine place today. Any nerf to its damage is going to make this class really useless.

[Azrienov]

I'm going to throw this in here as a player who used a Pyro on both Merc and PT.

 

PTs are tank killing machines. Flat out. If you get in their 10 M range, they're going to light your screen up. Thankfully, they need a flame dot effect to place their railshots on target. This is countered with a cleanse. If you're a marauder, you probably will not stack up well against a PT.

 

However, if you're a scoot and shoot pyro merc who stays outside of their effective range, and plays the CC game well, there's not a thing the PT can do to you. He spams flame burst (if he's in range... and wastes his proc) and immediately overheats. Just like when mercenaries have melee on them with low CD closers and are pretty much LOL'd, Marauders that want to try their luck against a tank buster are not playing to their strengths.

 

Having said that, I'm sure the PT could use some balancing to increase his over time damage, and reduce his burst. Nothing spectacular I'd say, as his PvP niche is high yield low time delay damage. There should also be an increase in the balancing of the attacks to obtain the high output damage. If the PT lets loose with a well set chain of attacks, you deserve to get scorched, because you let him do that to you.

 

If you want to check the PT, add a channel cast delay to his railshot. Then, his ability can be interrupted by someone paying attention.

[arcadeboredom]

On my Vanguard I play along side a scoundrel and a sentinel that produce the same kinds of numbers at the end of a warzone the damage dealt, kills (DBs), and deaths. So I would argue that pyros do not need a nerf.

 

Sorry to say but you must suck then. I play a PT pyro. Not even war hero yet. Full BM and only war hero lethality snipers out damage me in warzones.

 

However saying that. PT Pyro's do not need a nerf as they have little survivability. They are a glass canon you focus on them and they die fast. very fast. The reason there is so much QQ about marauders/sentinels is that they have high single target damage AND insane survivability. If PT Pyros were hard to kill and had the damage we do.. yeah fair enough we'd need a nerf but I think they are fine at the moment

[Citizen-Snips]

this is a silly thread. it sounds like someone got rolled over a PT and thinks the class is OP even though it may be their gear, the PT's gear or lack of skill

 

i agree that if you do not know the class you should not be asking for a nerf

 

i have the ability to do some decent damage and can put up numbers similar to a maurader so if you nerf one you have to nerf the other.

 

if you do that then the healers will be op again.

 

the only real nerf i see being needed after 1.3 is released is operative/scoundrel healing

[LordExozone]

There is a single very effective way of handling pyrotech powertechs, thankfully most people still haven't figured it out yet as its less obvious (unless you play the class yourself) than say dealing with a Marauder (where the main trick that gives you an edge is saving CC till the end of the fight when he pops his semi-invulnerability).

People whining about pyrotechs generally just need to learn to play against them.

 

That said, we are capable of very high burst, but at the expense of survivability. There is no way for us to escape unfavorable encounters. I'd say it's fairly balanced, damage numbers in warzones are not a suitable indication for class balance.

[Valonz]

Power Shot has a 2 second cast time... If FB had a 2 second cast time... this would have better balance.

 

I actually think PS may be a way to introduce balance between the Merc and PT classes.

Take PS out of the Merc abilities and put it into the BH abilities.

Redesign PS to only powerup and fire the mainhand weapon.

 

Under this new PS, PTs would get a better benefit from PS than Mercs but Mercs would get a better benefit from unload than PTs. PT abilities could then be linked to PS making everyone happy (except those who want to keep PTs OP).

 

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/234/765/b7e.jpg

 

 

That's all i can say. You dont even play the class and yet you are sitting here theocrafting about **** you know nothing about. GG

 

Nerf paper, scissors is fine...

 

Sincerly, rock.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Valonz