Eleftheria Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 (edited) again all am saying is a suggestion its up to you,but you're speaking like this,cause you didnt raid at 50 yet,in hard mode operations,and normal mode operations,(caps inc) YOUR TANK DOESNT DIE,unless you had bad healers,there's even no pressure tank damage wise,90% of wipes cause cause of enrage timers,15% damage,for 15s isnt minor DPS boost,not if people lined their CDs and relics with it!,why you'd waste this DPS increase,when your tank wont die? and about point where you're not having room for extra gcd,a lto fo fights arent melee friendly,so you wont be excuting your rotation perffectly,so any save on rage,would benifit you more,even if its 1 rage every 18s,you dont get to use scream and vicious slash that much as rage in operations fight,but with the latest change tot his build.reducing smash cost talent,and this one extra rage every 18s,you got yourself 3 rage,you can use for an extra scream,or slash when possible,that's what i found after trying many variations of this spec Edited December 31, 2011 by Eleftheria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zandermill Posted December 31, 2011 Author Share Posted December 31, 2011 (edited) Yet, again I'm saying intro raids are going to scale themselves as more people acquire gear, but future flash points / raids may see a need for it. I understand what you're saying about current raids being dps checks, and not really survivability checks. However we will have tank check fights soon, which is really not just a check on the tank, but on the healers as well as whoever else can bring a survivability buff to the raid as well. If you're any type of end game raider, then you know for a fact, the first progression tier on a new game, is always the easiest, it's an intro to raiding. As long as your dps have a pulse, healers aren't flat-lining and the tank isn't going "Oooo shiny!" You'll be able to kill the boss eventually. The question becomes, will predation be useful? As we see newer bosses as Bioware get's it collective feet in the mud for the first time in their mmo, new boss mechanics and new shiny fire for people to avoid. Edited December 31, 2011 by Zandermill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Yet, again I'm saying intro raids are going to scale themselves as more people acquire gear, but future flash points / raids may see a need for it. I understand what you're saying about current raids being dps checks, and not really survivability checks. However we will have tank check fights soon, which is really not just a check on the tank, but on the healers as well as whoever else can bring a survivability buff to the raid as well. If you're any type of end game raider, then you know for a fact, the first progression tier on a new game, is always the easiest, it's an intro to raiding. As long as your dps have a pulse, healers aren't flat-lining and the tank isn't going "Oooo shiny!" You'll be able to kill the boss eventually. The question becomes, will predation be useful? As we see newer bosses as Bioware get's it collective feet in the mud for the first time in their mmo, new boss mechanics and new shiny fire for people to avoid. i see your point,but,in theorycrafting(am not one myself,i only put points i see from experience in actual game) you dont look forward,when you plan a spec you're planning it for current content,you dont look at next tier which isnt released yet,and you say "oh lets use this talent for tank survivability, cause future fights wont be DPS check" you're suggesting a spec,for current content,where DPS is what's needed to be improved,not the tank survivability,when new content comes,(and maybe talent changes come with it) you do changes if needed,but if i understood correctly,right now this topic is about current content no?" and on a side note,i am a progression raider,was in wow,for 6 years,so i know how content work and is improved,but as i said,we're looking at this content,for this spec,and its discussion,not future one,where we know nothing about, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketMoose Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Can I get a pic of your UI with Binds? I want to see what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) Can I get a pic of your UI with Binds? I want to see what works for you. my marauder almost in full 50 operation gear(except implants relics,and ear pieces) i am not a keybind person,always a clicker!,but in general,i use all the middle quickslot bars abilities,the lower bar,being cooldowns/situational abilities) http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/984/screenshot2012010117192.jpg P.s: if you choose to hide head item slot,it turns into a hood ^^ Edited January 1, 2012 by Eleftheria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everfresh Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 my marauder almost in full 50 operation gear(except implants relics,and ear pieces) i am not a keybind person,always a clicker!,but in general,i use all the middle quickslot bars abilities,the lower bar,being cooldowns/situational abilities) http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/984/screenshot2012010117192.jpg P.s: if you choose to hide head item slot,it turns into a hood ^^ do you think you could spare some time to go through your gearing process after dinging 50? dailies, hc's, important musts, your spec for pve and pvp etc? if you could be as detailed as possible (or anyone else for that matter) i would be very grateful as would a lot of the community who feel lost at the daunting prospect of starting the end game. great thread, great read thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) most of it was getting gear i can from commendations on corellia and belsavis specially,and doing the higher planets bonus series for mods and armoring,i got 400 artifice,so i could craft epic hilts/enhancements for myself,as well as picked up some blue quality gear for decent price of galactic trade network,and was trying to do daily and weekly pvp for champion bags(pvp gear not bad for pve),and then starting running hard mode flashpoints,easiest to hardest,started with blacktalon and false emperror,then the rest. i tried all 3 specs at end game,however atm am rage specced,then after i got mostly blue gear/some epic pieces my guild did EV normal,and bonethrasher. i didnt do dailies myself but you can pick up epic implants/earpieces from belsavis/illum dailies oh its worth adding, that doing the 50 flashpoints on normal(false emperor,battle for illum, and directive 7) for some gear,if you got pieces that arent blue/moddable and close to 50,i didnt need to go for this step as questing and commendations,and some AH stuff buying covered this for me. Edited January 1, 2012 by Eleftheria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everfresh Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 if i am in gear that is 48-50 level requirement that is relevant stats do you therfore think i am ready to start on some flashpoint hardmodes and normal operations? can you give a bit more detail on the pvp rewards? how quickly do you accumulate these bags you mentioned? i feel like im level 50 quite quickly on my server and see some people decked in purples already ahead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynksys Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I actually read all 14 pages of this thread and it was nice to see solid dialog/debate going back and forth on ideas. Not very often where one can get solid information from both sides of the debate. All of this information was very informative. Currently, I am annihilation and leveled the whole way in that tree. However, it would be interesting to see what Rage could do. Just based on the Arm Pen alone it would seem as if it is really viable when one takes into account the value of accuracy right now. My biggest gripe/concern is the fact that I would have to put points into talents that have no real value in PVE/Raiding. Also, it seems (from reading the thread) that a lot of Rage's big damage is based on Smash and armor pen. I might have misread/misunderstood but I notice that some of those who champion Rage talked about the their big "smash" crits. I may be concerned about nothing as I am eager to try rage, but it is hard to get past talents that don't seem to have a lot of value in the pve area. I realize that in any tree one might find talents they consider "useless" in a certain type of spec. But it seems keeping them to a minimum would be paramount to have a good PvE spec. With annihilation I do find though that it seems to be more beneficial in a group/raid environment with the buffs from Blood thirst to Beserk. I still need to do research as to how the bleed effects stack with stats and everything. I have also found from time to time that even with my companion going in first that I will pull aggro off of them and sometimes pay dearly for that, lol. So I have become familiar with Obfuscate and Cammo. I think I will give the Rage build a whirl while questing/dailies and see how it turns out as well. Hard to really knock anything until I have tried it. If the numbers prove that one is slightly better than the other, one would then make the decision based on personal preference. I will give Rage a shot, but I wonder if doing dailies/bonus quests will be a good enough testbed. Thank you all for your input and I will be definitely checking back to see how it is coming along for others as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyraxe Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 i think people here are still under the assumption that accuracy over 110% gives you armor pen. IT DOES NOT. It reduces DEFENSE which is not the same as ARMOR. DEFENSE increases your chance to dodge or deflect attacks as well as Force and Tech resistance. I also read somewhere in this thread that Ataru form procs are not affected by bonus damage, when in fact they actually ARE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) if i am in gear that is 48-50 level requirement that is relevant stats do you therfore think i am ready to start on some flashpoint hardmodes and normal operations? can you give a bit more detail on the pvp rewards? how quickly do you accumulate these bags you mentioned? i feel like im level 50 quite quickly on my server and see some people decked in purples already ahead of me. in general i went with guild groups,with full blue,was first time i did blacktalon hard mode with all blue pieces,except my bracers,which i had from pvp,as for pvp reward,when you finish pvp daily,weekly,(or you get 800 warzone commendations,convert 600 warzone commendations into 200 mercenary) you get a champion bag,this one give you credits,centurion commendations(used to buy centurion gear) and have a chance to drop a champion token,for a specific piece,which you can replace for that piece from champion pvp gear vendor. but in general for hardmodes and normal operations,you need all the raid to pull their weight,and do best DPS they can,especially when most still in 48-50 blues,to make it through enrage timers,but its doable,everyone need to do their best though. Edited January 1, 2012 by Eleftheria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 i think people here are still under the assumption that accuracy over 110% gives you armor pen. IT DOES NOT. It reduces DEFENSE which is not the same as ARMOR. DEFENSE increases your chance to dodge or deflect attacks as well as Force and Tech resistance. I also read somewhere in this thread that Ataru form procs are not affected by bonus damage, when in fact they actually ARE. about the defense point,at the moment it is "assumed" through multiple theory crafting sites(marauder related at least) that bosses have 10% defense rating,so accuracy to 110% is to ensure not getting dodged deflected etc,and OP post did say,that accuracy >110% will prove to be useful if it was armor penetration,but he didnt say it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynksys Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 i think people here are still under the assumption that accuracy over 110% gives you armor pen. IT DOES NOT. It reduces DEFENSE which is not the same as ARMOR. DEFENSE increases your chance to dodge or deflect attacks as well as Force and Tech resistance. I also read somewhere in this thread that Ataru form procs are not affected by bonus damage, when in fact they actually ARE. This is true (accuracy and armp). However, reducing their ability to dodge and parry is a good thing. In the same breath though it will not have nearly the value as some may be thinking when one realizes the difference between the too. It basically seems like that accuracy after a certain point acts as expertise. I would have thought that Carnage (just by looking at the talents in the tree alone) would be the PvE spec. It seems to scale off of an ability that one gets and gets better with passive talents and gear. However, I have yet to see anyone mention carnage as viable. I am Annihilation, but I would be willing to see what they all could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitfury Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Good points and good job trying to sort out all the unknowns in a vacuum. it might be useful to use a naked character and base level saber set with no mods and do a time to die analysis (T2D). Macro in the attack rotation on something that has no AOE, just big hit points and a toe to attack. More than likely something that respawns in an area relatively quickly. No companion either. T2D can be for the player or the enemy. Things like charge in would allow the macro to start perfectly every time without having to actually manuever in and possibly take some startup damage. If you can tweak the macro to be dead on each time, you'll narrow down the unknowns a bit. Post the character config and then have the base dataset, then add armour and mods. Then switch to a companion doing the initial attack/tank and start the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyraxe Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This is true (accuracy and armp). However, reducing their ability to dodge and parry is a good thing. In the same breath though it will not have nearly the value as some may be thinking when one realizes the difference between the too. It basically seems like that accuracy after a certain point acts as expertise. I would have thought that Carnage (just by looking at the talents in the tree alone) would be the PvE spec. It seems to scale off of an ability that one gets and gets better with passive talents and gear. However, I have yet to see anyone mention carnage as viable. I am Annihilation, but I would be willing to see what they all could do. im not disputing the usefulness of getting 110% accuracy, i am just clearing up confusion some people seem to have about it. As far as pve dps goes, annihilation and carnage are both very competitive. I don't see rage as a competitive raiding dps spec however though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekko Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Been reading this, might give the Rage tree a go I thought it was better for pvp though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthracis Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Just started using Rage this afternoon and played with it for a couple of hours. Very helpful so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekko Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Im using it at the moment, not sure if Im doing the rotation right or what not but I dont see a big dps increase maybe just a few extra crits from the smash talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andretious Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 False and misleading. Rage spec is for leveling up. Carnage atm is best pve and pvp with some talents moved around for both. I'm raiding hard mode eternity vault atm in carnage spec. I'm full tier gear with mix of columni and rakata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I don't care which spec does the most damage. Rage and its force abilities focused playstyle suits more me and the idea I have of a force user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everfresh Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 False and misleading. Rage spec is for leveling up. Carnage atm is best pve and pvp with some talents moved around for both. I'm raiding hard mode eternity vault atm in carnage spec. I'm full tier gear with mix of columni and rakata. can you possibly provide a link to your spec please andretious? how do you feel as a marauder in the raid in comparison to other classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) False and misleading. Rage spec is for leveling up. Carnage atm is best pve and pvp with some talents moved around for both. I'm raiding hard mode eternity vault atm in carnage spec. I'm full tier gear with mix of columni and rakata. before you say this,your proof?and no am not saying rage is better,or carnage is better,as without meters,it's hard to tell,but at least OP provided some maths,for why rage is better,where is yours? i mean,and no offense lol, there's 15 pages of discussion about specs you just skipped it and said carnage is best?just cause you're doing hardmodes?again no offense,you could've been carried,plus,the difference between specs,tend to be not that huge,to judge it through if a boss enraged or not,unless you got actual proof carnage is better,dont just barge in and make conclusions without evidence. again am not defending rage,nor attacking carnage,actually i like carnage play the most. Edited January 2, 2012 by Eleftheria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andretious Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've tried all the specs in hard mode flashpoints and hard mode operations I find carnage to be the best. I consider rage the best for it's survival and aoe abilities while leveling. I wanted annihilation to be the pve tree for raiding but annihlate just seems to weak of a hit for some reason. I can definetly tell that carnage is the best spec atm pvp and pve by time spent testing all the specs in rakata/columni gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleftheria Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've tried all the specs in hard mode flashpoints and hard mode operations I find carnage to be the best. I consider rage the best for it's survival and aoe abilities while leveling. I wanted annihilation to be the pve tree for raiding but annihlate just seems to weak of a hit for some reason. I can definetly tell that carnage is the best spec atm pvp and pve by time spent testing all the specs in rakata/columni gear. i am columni/rakkata gear on my marauder,and if you wanna go by how i feel about the damage of specs,Rage seem to be putting out the most,i definitly got higher damage done in warzones while in rage,but again all this is situational,until a compat log/DPS meter is implemented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andretious Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z261/andretious/Screenshot_2012-01-02_01_55_19_667134.jpg picture of my marauder to back it up. I seem to yank threat in the carnage build i feel like my dps is very good. Let's see a picture of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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