1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[anticept]

BTW, I love that I was right... and I'm going to gloat about this one. I've been saying for weeks that marauders do NOT need a nerf and if anything the carnage tree needs a buff to compete with the annihilation tree.

 

I almost hate being that guys but...

 

I told you so

 

Sure don´t nerf mara´s but increase all other classes dps by 20% to deal with your cd´s.

[ProfessorWalsh]

That's not a catch at all. Of course a marauder's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, just like a sorc's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and a merc's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and a sniper's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and an assasin's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and an operative's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target...I think you get the idea...

 

That doesn't change that fact that all other things being equal a marauder has the highest DPS.

 

...

 

Okay hold on.

 

First I am laying down a few facts, for one melee have to be compensated for the added difficulty of having to close and remain in melee range. No class that doesn't have to deal with that should be doing equal damage... Why? Because they don't have to do that. Sentinels get no auto-face and they have no significant ranged attacks. They deal with something you don't have to deal with in order to get that extra damage.

 

If a Trooper, for example, could do equal damage to a Sentinel from range then there is no reason to play a Sentinel.

 

Secondly classes that have one, and only one, role available to them with no synergy and no ability to hybridize for utility need to be able to be bar none the best at that role. Otherwise there is no point in playing that class especially if duel specs are added to the game.

[Xerain]

That's not a catch at all. Of course a marauder's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, just like a sorc's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and a merc's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and a sniper's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and an assasin's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target, and an operative's DPS will be reduced if they are not allowed to attack a target...I think you get the idea...

 

That doesn't change that fact that all other things being equal a marauder has the highest DPS.

 

Well those ranged classes you mentioned have a much easier time of attacking a target because they have a 30m range so time on target is far greater. Also operative and assassin both have moves that go up to 30m and a lot of 10m range moves.

 

I'm sure you'll get the idea when you figure out different classes are different.

[Swarna]

Funny thing is I'm always seeing the same 5-6 advocating both sides of the fence in every single Marauder thread spewing the same nonsense over and over again.

[Kaltastic]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

[UGLYMRJ]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

 

^^ This^^

[ProfessorWalsh]

No, you didn't prove anything at all- people have been saying that marauders need a nerf BUT Bioware will not nerf them because they love the class too much.

 

1.3 proved everyone right- BW refuses to nerf the only class that still has paying subs.

 

Fungi, for weeks every post you have made has been about how Sentinels and Marauders need to be nerfed. Every single post. For weeks we have been telling you that you are incorrect. We have told you how to beat us down the point now that we the Sentinel players have written and posted entire guides explaining how best to kill us.

 

Sentinels are 100% fine. They are not overpowered, they are not underpowered, they simply require someone to use their CD's properly to stop our own CD's.

 

This game will never go back to Sorcerers and Sages owning everyone in PVP. Never.

[Boarg]

Oh thanks for the information on not proving to me anything.

 

Well then, you prove him wrong. Bring out your evidence that Marauders/Sentinels aren't the highest sustained dps in game. Bring out your proof that longer ttk's don't favor sustained damage types.

 

You're the one trying to buck common knowledge and elementary exercise of reason. The burden of proof is on you to bring everyone else to your thinking, not everyone else to bring you to their thinking.

[Ravenolf]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

 

Don't bring common since into this argument.

[anticept]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

 

like they did with arsenal mercs and dps sorcs /mirrors. Don´t know but i never had difficulties against GR/TM spammers or sorcs even on a shootout ie. no los , no kiting ... but i´m 100% sure i will die if i don´t kite a marauder.

[UGLYMRJ]

No, you didn't prove anything at all- people have been saying that marauders need a nerf BUT Bioware will not nerf them because they love the class too much.

 

1.3 proved everyone right- BW refuses to nerf the only class that still has paying subs.

 

Is this a serious reply? Are you suggesting that because BW favors a class over the rest of them, that they are potentially willing to risk hundreds of millions of dollars to out perform other classes instead of doing what is more logical and fighting the constant MMO balance fight and bringing in more sales and subs...

 

Wow... they must really love the marauders.

 

PS: I'm pretty sure that if they nerfed everything that got a lot of attention on the forums instead of looking at the data and making logical decisions based on that... in the long run they would lose a lot more money. instead they focus on facts and not theories which should in turn keep the real MMO/PvP players around since these are the ones who will be still paying for subs in 3 years and most who are screaming for nerfs will have bounced between 3-4 games in that same time.

[Ballzz]

So how are they broken. They look like they still do great in PvP to me.

 

Since you can't seem to read..I'll post what I said to you a few posts up..AGAIN.

 

Sage healing is far from fine. Just because you saw some Sage put up 600k healing doesn't mean they are fine. The power of Sage healing wasn't changed other than the fix to the double dip bug. This is a big misconception with the healing changes. Sage healing power (the power of our heals) is still there essentially. However, they made it harder to cast heals by increasing the cast time of our main heal and giving brain dead DPS a larger window to interrupt heals while simultaneously buffing damage. When playing against terrible players who let Sages stand there free-casting..Sages look fine. Even one person with half a brain can take out a Sage easily..with minimal skill. That is NOT fine.

 

You should go play a Sage in PVP before making wildly uninformed comments on the state of the class.

[Mournblood]

No, you didn't prove anything at all- people have been saying that marauders need a nerf BUT Bioware will not nerf them because they love the class too much.

 

1.3 proved everyone right- BW refuses to nerf the only class that still has paying subs.

 

Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? It's as if you're some 10-year old kid throwing a temper tantrum because his parents won't let him have a Facebook account, but he's too immature and too unaware of their completely justified reasons for that.

 

Tell you what, if you honestly believe that BW is favoring Marauders/Sentinels because of some metric you've pulled out of your arse that shows the majority of remaining subscribers are comprised of players with these classes, then maybe you should do yourself a favor and go find another game to play or better yet, create your own gaming studio and make your own game because nothing short of those two options is ever going to satisfy your puerile notion of fairness and balance in this game.

[Oscibi]

According to my PvP data, this nerfs my Shadow self-healing by 45%. It is also reduces our mitigation (excluding Internal/Elemental dmg) by 9%.

 

Yet Marauders/Sentinels still get to do MORE healing than us + 3x the dps + have better survivability with insane cds + have better PvP stealth . . .

 

yeh that 3 or 4 second stealth is epic.

[fungihoujo]

Fungi, for weeks every post you have made has been about how Sentinels and Marauders need to be nerfed. Every single post. For weeks we have been telling you that you are incorrect. We have told you how to beat us down the point now that we the Sentinel players have written and posted entire guides explaining how best to kill us.

 

Sentinels are 100% fine. They are not overpowered, they are not underpowered, they simply require someone to use their CD's properly to stop our own CD's.

 

This game will never go back to Sorcerers and Sages owning everyone in PVP. Never.

 

I don't disagree with that- the game will not go back to the point where sorcs/sages are viable in pvp- or the point where the only class that thinks they are fine are mara/sents.

 

I have also posted long guides, ability to ability comparisons, lists of abilities, etc... comparing marauders to other classes- and the marauder playerbase only responds with ignoring it, saying that some abilities do not count, or saying that we should have a team handle it for us.

 

In fact, despite what you say, very few of my posts have been asking for marauder nerfs- most of the short ones are jabs at BW's incompetence and the reasoning why they've lost 400k subs since 1.2, as well as the huge drop in pvp playerbase across almost all servers other than the top 15.

 

And most of the long ones were nothing but fact based lists/comparisons- as in, pure numbers, ability descriptions, side by side comparisons- that were called out as hyperbole, calls for nerfs, etc.... despite being nothing that could be disputed (because they were factual), and not even calling for a nerf of any sort.

 

When you do a side by side comparison, that's just how people react because it does look that bad to most people.

 

Personally, I've been over sorcs for a while- I haven't touched mine in over a month now, and while there's a bit of bitterness that a class that was balanced in pvp and I enjoyed playing got such a large nerf to every aspect of it- I moved on to play my PT and my marauder.

 

 

That you and other staunch marauder fans like Xerain can constantly say 'marauders aren't OP and don't deserve a nerf, it's wrong to say they do... but sorcs did deserve the huge nerf they got in 1.2' is vastly hypocritical, not to mention that I have to constantly correct marauders like yourselves when you release 'facts' like "One marauder spec has a single root, the others have zero".

 

The only thing correct is that one spec has a single root- but, another has 2, and another has 3. We constantly are seeing marauders trying to discount their own abilities because they do not see them as useful- force camo can't be used to close gaps, the root on force leap doesn't count, obfuscate doesn't do much for keeping you alive longer, etc....

 

Some of these claims were made by you yourself- they're wrong, I correct them.

 

Do I say marauders need a nerf? Yes, I'm sure you could find a couple dozen posts of me saying that, and of me using hyperbole and glossing over details.

 

 

But, I've also multiple times gone through the effort of presenting nothing but the facts- and those are the posts that marauders will deliberately avoid or use only opinions (3 second leap root doesn't count as a root, for example).

 

 

I find it ironic though, professor, that you can stand here and say 'BW has said with this patch that marauders didn't need a nerf after all', as if what BW says is fact.... considering you spent most of the last 3 years showing you didn't trust BW's judgment on countless issues.

 

So is that your creed professor? 'In BW we trust as long as their decisions benefit me', because that's what you seem to be saying right now when you say we should believe them now despite having said otherwise so many times before... just because now, they're on your side.

[Thaelcron]

My brain hurts reading how people are justifying that a nerf to relics and adrenals somehow equals marauders are magically buffed and are going to do more damage. Everyone, marauders/sentinels included, are going to be less bursty. This also means healers, regardless of class, will be a little bit more effective. The vaunted marauder cooldowns will also be diminished because of the less burst.

 

Also, who cares what anyones sustained dps is on a training dummy. Are you really stupid enough to stand there and let anyone beat on you to do that dps? No class is OMGWTF further ahead of anyone in damage.

 

Yes yes I know my sig says I'm a marauder. I also have a Sorcerer(lightning spec), Sage(telekinetic spec), Vanguard(assault specialist), Sniper(marksman), Scoundrel(concealment), and Commando(gunnery). I have zero issues fighting marauders/sentinels or any other class. If you have problems fighting another class, the problem is you. Never lead with cc (in 1v1) and don't blindly use it. Even if they have a full resolve bar, snares and roots still work. Kill healers first, stop attacking tanks or anyone else when there's a healer around.

[UGLYMRJ]

yeh that 3 or 4 second stealth is epic.

 

I literally LOL'd.... thank you.

 

Yeah, that 6 sec stealth actually... AT MOST with 2 points invested. EPIC!

 

And btw to the guy that this guy replied too... You will still more self healing, we will do more group healing and you can vanish damn near any time you want. How is that less survivability again?

[Xinika]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

 

They will be nerfed or this game will die inherently

[Superawesomerman]

Sage healing is far from fine. Just because you saw some Sage put up 600k healing doesn't mean they are fine. The power of Sage healing wasn't changed other than the fix to the double dip bug. This is a big misconception with the healing changes. Sage healing power (the power of our heals) is still there essentially. However, they made it harder to cast heals by increasing the cast time of our main heal and giving brain dead DPS a larger window to interrupt heals while simultaneously buffing damage. When playing against terrible players who let Sages stand there free-casting..Sages look fine. Even one person with half a brain can take out a Sage easily..with minimal skill. That is NOT fine.

 

You should go play a Sage in PVP before making wildly uninformed comments on the state of the class.

 

I play a sage, and I think they are fine. The best healer, even. Read link in sig.

 

I think maras are a little strong (not op strong). There's a reason smart healers dont die to single maras... All of them can dispel dots. pts are much more of a problem.

[Mournblood]

They will be nerfed or I will quit this game in a huff.

 

Fixed that for you. And in case I don't get a chance to tell you this 2-3 months from now, buh bye!

[UGLYMRJ]

They will be nerfed or this game will die inherently

 

This... as I stole from myself above. With a couple minor edits...

 

PS: I'm pretty sure that if they nerfed everything that got a lot of attention on the forums instead of looking at the data and making logical decisions based on that... in the long run they would lose a lot more money. instead they focus on facts and not theories which should in turn keep the real MMO/PvP players around since these are the ones who will be still paying for subs in 3-5 years and most who are screaming for nerfs will have bounced between 3-4 games AT LEAST in that same time.

[fungihoujo]

Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? It's as if you're some 10-year old kid throwing a temper tantrum because his parents won't let him have a Facebook account, but he's too immature and too unaware of their completely justified reasons for that.

 

Tell you what, if you honestly believe that BW is favoring Marauders/Sentinels because of some metric you've pulled out of your arse that shows the majority of remaining subscribers are comprised of players with these classes, then maybe you should do yourself a favor and go find another game to play or better yet, create your own gaming studio and make your own game because nothing short of those two options is ever going to satisfy your puerile notion of fairness and balance in this game.

 

On point one- I am going to find another game to play.

 

On point two, do you know how ridiculous you sound? If I don't like a game I should make my own.

 

Well then, I guess if you don't like any of the president's policies, you should just become president rather than saying you don't like them and why. I guess if your favourite team loses a game due to an awful call by a ref, you should become a referee rather than saying you don't like the call and getting mad about it. I guess if your boss fires you wrongfully you should just become the boss of the company rather than filing a lawsuit. I guess if someone shoots a kid you should become a judge rather than saying you think it's wrong to have a law that lets you shoot a kid.

 

Forums are here to talk about the game- and I don't really mind you calling me names or saying I'm a child or whatever. But do you know what, as someone who works with children, you bring up a good point.

 

"It's as if you're some 10-year old kid throwing a temper tantrum because his parents won't let him have a Facebook account, but he's too immature and too unaware of their completely justified reasons for that."

 

The point about being unaware of 'justified' reasons is a good one that fits perfectly. No child is going to know the reasoning behind why they can't have a facebook account if the parent refuses to explain it to them- and while you cannot avoid temper tantrums all the time just by explaining things to your children- much like you can't avoid QQ by explaining reasoning- you will avoid it in most of the children/adults that can understand it, or at the least you can turn the discussion away from mindless QQ into arguments about whether or not you agree with their reasoning.

 

If you say 'you can't have facebook', they ask why and your answer is 'we don't want you to'. Sure, as a parent you may feel it is your right to make all decisions (ultimately it is), but it's almost a guarantee you'll be rebelled against when you leave your children in the dark. If it's such a good reason- explain it to them.

 

BW is leaving their entire explanations for their pvp balance to 'because we feel it is in the right place' and 'our metrics show this'.

 

That's barely one step away from 'because I said so'- just try raising your children with that line, see how they turn out.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Don't worry. The nerf will be coming. As was shown with Sorc/Sages, and now with Sins/Shadows, they will listen to the forum whiners and adjust accordingly.

 

Thinking of rolling a Concealment Op just so that I can get used to the *** reaming that is about to come soon for my Mara and Sent.

[UGLYMRJ]

 

BW is leaving their entire explanations for their pvp balance to 'because we feel it is in the right place' and 'our metrics show this'.

 

That's barely one step away from 'because I said so'- just try raising your children with that line, see how they turn out.

.

 

This alone made me LOL...

 

So by your theory: Complaining and ranting on forums from people who obviously lack the knowledge of PvP mechanics is more important than factual mathematical statistics?

 

I hope you don't take that logic into your business ventures...

Edited June 6, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Xerain]

I don't disagree with that- the game will not go back to the point where sorcs/sages are viable in pvp- or the point where the only class that thinks they are fine are mara/sents.

 

sorc/sage is viable in pvp... See you know nothing.

 

I have also posted long guides, ability to ability comparisons, lists of abilities, etc... comparing marauders to other classes- and the marauder playerbase only responds with ignoring it, saying that some abilities do not count, or saying that we should have a team handle it for us.

 

You made a new post about nerfing marauders and sentinels everytime an old thread died and you consistenly did this with 0 factual evidence of anything besides your own QQ metric. You think that comparing apples and oranges to dictate class balance is how it works but it's not at all.

 

In fact, despite what you say, very few of my posts have been asking for marauder nerfs- most of the short ones are jabs at BW's incompetence and the reasoning why they've lost 400k subs since 1.2, as well as the huge drop in pvp playerbase across almost all servers other than the top 15.

 

A lot of your posts have been for marauders nerfs and crying that they're oped... and bioware lost 400k subs because of lack of stuff to do mainly, get bored do something else. A lot of pvp'ers i know left because lack of competitive pvp and not because the pvp was unbalanced.

 

And most of the long ones were nothing but fact based lists/comparisons- as in, pure numbers, ability descriptions, side by side comparisons- that were called out as hyperbole, calls for nerfs, etc.... despite being nothing that could be disputed (because they were factual), and not even calling for a nerf of any sort.

 

You can't side by side compare an apple and an orange and your little stories about how a marauder beat up your sorc in a warzone don't show anything but how much skill you truly lack as a ranged player.

 

When you do a side by side comparison, that's just how people react because it does look that bad to most people.

 

Personally, I've been over sorcs for a while- I haven't touched mine in over a month now, and while there's a bit of bitterness that a class that was balanced in pvp and I enjoyed playing got such a large nerf to every aspect of it- I moved on to play my PT and my marauder.

 

Oh yes sorcs AOE was perfectly balanced when they could put out double the numbers of the next person on the dps meters at the end of the match. Their AOE was the problem and if it was all single target they were balanced... Why the AOE just didn't get nerfed who knows.

 

 

That you and other staunch marauder fans like Xerain can constantly say 'marauders aren't OP and don't deserve a nerf, it's wrong to say they do... but sorcs did deserve the huge nerf they got in 1.2' is vastly hypocritical, not to mention that I have to constantly correct marauders like yourselves when you release 'facts' like "One marauder spec has a single root, the others have zero".

 

They didn't get a huge nerf and they're still a great class, i still see guildies beating people down with their sorcs like it's nothing. Sure sorcs didn't need the nerf they got and like i said, too much AOE.

 

I've never said one marauder spec has a single root and infact in beta the most fun spec to play was combat/carnage but sorry to say the most viable spec for marauder/sentinel is annihilation/watchmen

 

The only thing correct is that one spec has a single root- but, another has 2, and another has 3. We constantly are seeing marauders trying to discount their own abilities because they do not see them as useful- force camo can't be used to close gaps, the root on force leap doesn't count, obfuscate doesn't do much for keeping you alive longer, etc....

 

We're not trying to discount our own abilities you're trying to blow our abilities out of proportion. I think in a thread i saw you claim that charge is an escape ability and should be used that way... Sure i can use it that way and sometimes i do but i'm not pairing it in with force camo now nor am i saying force camo is a gap closer. All the classes have a variety of moves that can be used in different ways and you're QQ'ing about this fact for one class because?

 

Some of these claims were made by you yourself- they're wrong, I correct them.

 

Do I say marauders need a nerf? Yes, I'm sure you could find a couple dozen posts of me saying that, and of me using hyperbole and glossing over details.

 

 

But, I've also multiple times gone through the effort of presenting nothing but the facts- and those are the posts that marauders will deliberately avoid or use only opinions (3 second leap root doesn't count as a root, for example).

 

Facts are not stupid little stories that you made up while playing against a marauder on your sorc.

 

I find it ironic though, professor, that you can stand here and say 'BW has said with this patch that marauders didn't need a nerf after all', as if what BW says is fact.... considering you spent most of the last 3 years showing you didn't trust BW's judgment on countless issues.

 

So is that your creed professor? 'In BW we trust as long as their decisions benefit me', because that's what you seem to be saying right now when you say we should believe them now despite having said otherwise so many times before... just because now, they're on your side.

 

All i read from you is saying you got nerfed so everyone else should too... PT needs nerfed, assassins need nerfed, marauders need nerfed, operative healing needs nerfed... When it all comes down to it you've some how brough sorc/sage into your argument for all of your claims.