Guardian need a buff

[dcgregorya]

The only thing Guardians/Juggernauts need damage buffs for are bringing their damage over time attacks up-to par with what a sentinel/marauder does (but with one saber).

 

The only thing they need is better players IMHO.

[Sgt_Hammer]

i Play a hybrid defense/vig guardian usually with a hybrid scoundrel heals, and we regularly hold of 6-8 players from a node sometimes even killing all of them granted most of these people are bad, however if you play the correct role of your class you will find that you are almost impossible to kill.

 

(mostly BM gear no War Hero)

[kweassa]

I've never seen a Sin or PT leap/push/leap/Intercede their way from mid to nearly the goal line in the matter of a few globals. I've also never seen them AOE crit for 6K. I've also never seen one with 30k health either that took 4 people about 30 seconds to kill.

 

I think you should reword that last line to anything a poorly played class can do a well played one can do better. I already have 4 level 50's. I don't feel like leveling another right now. Once 1.3 comes where we can tweak xp gains a bit I'll make new toons of all these so called UP classes and make people QQ about how OP they are.

 

Apparently you've also never seen at which point the lines are drawn that differentiates between different Guardian/Jugg types.

 

The offensive specced ones are doing fine. The defensive ones, are not.

[kweassa]

The only thing they need is better players IMHO.

 

i Play a hybrid defense/vig guardian usually with a hybrid scoundrel heals, and we regularly hold of 6-8 players from a node sometimes even killing all of them granted most of these people are bad, however if you play the correct role of your class you will find that you are almost impossible to kill.

 

(mostly BM gear no War Hero)

 

On principle, I agree with both points. Believe me, just look at my sig. However, that principle applies to all classes under every given situation. That sort of logic, if pursued too far without careful insight as to how things work, simply turns into a lazy L2P response. (Granted, a lot of the posts coming from complainers in these forums deserve no better, but even so.)

 

Among the 2~3 different Guardian/Jugg types you can build in this game (which becomes the basis to every other type of personal modification possible), one lags behind seriously in performance.

 

Now, is it impossible to play the game with that type? Ofcourse not. Like, you can gimp the Op/Scoundrel class even more, and still there would be someone who plays it quite nicely.

 

In my case my very first lv50 character was a Guardian, and I've always specced it as a tank/defensive type. I didn't take the path to bastardizing mod/enhancement and gear to spec the offense, nor did I ever go past investing more than 10 points into any other tree than Defense/Immortal. When you play a class for that long, you achieve a certain level of comfort with it, and despite the generally sucky performance your actual combat results can be satisfactory.

 

However, all of the above is about my personal trait, the amount of weaknesses and problems I manage to offset with my personal experience or knowledge into the class... and this should be considered something totally different from what the class needs/lacks in an objective sense, and therefore, should be left out when discussing the objective performance of a character in comparison to other.

 

Give a person any class you think is sucky, and I'll bet in maybe 3~4 months of foucsed gameplay, that someone would probably still be able to manage reasonable amount of fun/rewards with it. But that don't mean that class is not sucky. That simply means the player behind it is good enough to fill in the gaping holes in the performance.

 

Don't confuse those.

[-Fal-]

Oh my... lol

[dcgregorya]

Give a person any class you think is sucky, and I'll bet in maybe 3~4 months of foucsed gameplay, that someone would probably still be able to manage reasonable amount of fun/rewards with it. But that don't mean that class is not sucky. That simply means the player behind it is good enough to fill in the gaping holes in the performance.

 

Don't confuse those.

 

Which spec is it specifically that you think is sucky? The tank spec? People on this thread are complaining about all the specs.

 

Ah, read further. The defensive one. What's your issue with the defensive one? Not enough damage? Not tanky enough? I think part of the issue is playstyle. I'll take the guardian perma AOE snare and push over the vanguard shield tank's pull and superior DPS. The marginal difference in DPS won't turn fights. The utilities of the guardian can. Not everyone of course would agree with me on this point. From all accounts the guardian will tank better as far as purely tanking matters so the only thing I could think of as a problem would be the 150dps or so difference between the two.

Edited June 1, 2012 by dcgregorya

[kweassa]

Ah, read further. The defensive one. What's your issue with the defensive one? Not enough damage? Not tanky enough?

 

It could probably summarized as [...the difference in defense/self-preservation performance between a tank/defensive spec and a Soresu-using offensive spec...].

 

 

I think part of the issue is playstyle. I'll take the guardian perma AOE snare and push over the vanguard shield tank's pull and superior DPS.

 

The difference in playstyle/utility is simply a difference in the specific role a class plays. Vang/PTs or Shad/Assies are conceptually more offensive in nature (at least, the way I see it) and akin to the role mentioned as "deal tanks", whereas Guardian/Juggs follow the more traditonal sense of the term "tank" - considering their general utility that is set to maximize zone control for a set time.

 

Vang/PTs are literally "vanguards" of the ranged class concept, which plays both a protector role to the fellow commandoes, providing guard protection and fire support, and then having utilities to disrupt the enemy lines or charge in first - whereas Guard/Juggs are melees. They're the frontline of any attack/final line of any defense, and its their job to be mixing it up at close quarters to actively disrupt the enemy cohesion.... hence, PBAoE snares and pushes.

 

TL;DR - 'not a sound comparison'

 

 

The marginal difference in DPS won't turn fights. The utilities of the guardian can. Not everyone of course would agree with me on this point. From all accounts the guardian will tank better as far as purely tanking matters so the only thing I could think of as a problem would be the 150dps or so difference between the two.

 

Take the same logic and apply it to different Guardians and Juggs. Going defensive offers only a non-important, marginal increase in survivability which is little bit noticeable in the 1-49 bracket, and then quickly disappears at lv50 WZs.

 

The basic mechanics of how defense rating and shield chance is handled in the game makes investment into these traits - the one, single defense factor a defensive G/J build has going for it - meaningless.

 

Hence, repeating myself, the absolute majority of G/J build principle basically gives up any defense/shield rating, and then switches it for offensive stats. The only really 'defensive' trait of these builds is that it uses some skills from the Defense/Immortal tree, and also the Soresu form. These builds are so decisively more effective than any really defensive tank build, that it actually makes these builds more survivable than a real tank build.

 

Hence, the argument is that the G/Js who choose to go fully committed into the defensive, must be rewarded as such in the area of self defense/preservation - particularly in the very field the defensive investment makes a difference in -> defense and shield chance.

 

Unlike Vanguards or Shadows, a defensive G/J has no DPS at all. Even the mighty Singularity -> Force Sweep crit combo deals something like 3k damage at max. Through so much sacrifice, do the defense G/Js really show a noticeable increase in longetivity and resilience against enemy attacks, compared to other G/J builds?

 

Nope.

Edited June 1, 2012 by kweassa

[JoeOrno]

Something Iwould really like to see is to have Enure made into a heal and not a HP buff...and to lower the CD on Saber Throw by about 5 seconds.

 

 

Soresu Guardians...well....they are not bad...in fact they are very powerful played right...but I can defiently see some areas for improvment..mainly Riposte should have its CD all but nullified if your speced deep into Soresu with a slight damage buff given to it for every stack of Sundering Strike you have on the target while increasing hate 25% on a target if you land a Riposte against a 5 stack Sundered target.

 

This would fit into the Defensive Guardians playstyle perfectly while giving them a bit of a damage boost and a hate boost...and without cluttering up their bars with yet another ability to keep track of.

 

I think that would be a very nice boost....but its ust my opinion anyways...

 

Vigilance isn't bad either and Focus is defiently usable.

Edited June 1, 2012 by JoeOrno

[Orangerascal]

I hate threads like this.

 

18/23 Defense/Vigilance is one of the best specs in the game. High mobility, High defense, Med Damage.

 

If you're wondering why you're not doing as much damage as say sentinel ... then it's simple, the answer lies in between the keyboard and the chair. There are many SS showing guardians doing incredible damage.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Blurps]

Cause everything Guardians do these ACs can do a lot better.

 

Everything YOU do maybe. Stop being bad ?

[Lovia]

guardian may need a small tone down, after the amount of nerfs/buffs i ve seen in this game i think i feel were the baseline for developers is guardian is a bit overboard, but it may just be a case of other classes underperforming, as it stands i dont thing guardians need any real changes, they are freshly buffed in 1.2 remember?

[kweassa]

I hate threads like this.

 

18/23 Defense/Vigilance is one of the best specs in the game. High mobility, High defense, Med Damage.

 

If you're wondering why you're not doing as much damage as say sentinel ... then it's simple, the answer lies in between the keyboard and the chair. There are many SS showing guardians doing incredible damage.

 

Actually, the most powerful Guardian/Juggernaut spec I've ever faced or witnessed in game is 21-0-20 Defense/Focus hybrid build, using offensive mod/enhancement from default Vindicator set, plus custom collected armoring from the War Leader set. (Essentially, this means you need two separate sets of War Hero gear)

 

There are some builds that do higher damage, but in terms of the perfect balance between damage + defense + utility, this build has got it all.

[vimm]

Actually, the most powerful Guardian/Juggernaut spec I've ever faced or witnessed in game is 21-0-20 Defense/Focus hybrid build, using offensive mod/enhancement from default Vindicator set, plus custom collected armoring from the War Leader set. (Essentially, this means you need two separate sets of War Hero gear)

 

There are some builds that do higher damage, but in terms of the perfect balance between damage + defense + utility, this build has got it all.

 

Gross.

[MooTheCosmicCow]

lol@op

[dcgregorya]

Take the same logic and apply it to different Guardians and Juggs. Going defensive offers only a non-important, marginal increase in survivability which is little bit noticeable in the 1-49 bracket, and then quickly disappears at lv50 WZs.

 

The basic mechanics of how defense rating and shield chance is handled in the game makes investment into these traits - the one, single defense factor a defensive G/J build has going for it - meaningless.

 

So, here's the part I don't understand. A tank geared shadow or vanguard doesn't do much more DPS than a guardian. It sound to me like you're asking for a general buff to tanks but I don't think tanks in tank gear are bad. They aren't the "I Win" solution to every fight but they have some classes that will have a very difficult time applying damage to them. As a gunslinger there's a very pronounced difference in how quickly I can kill a dedicated tank compared to a DPS geared tank. It's likely that part of the problem is that healers are heavily nerfed so on the metagame level tanks (who rely on healers to scale) are going to suffer.

 

I don't think that tanks in DPS gear is meant to be a "balanced option" so I wouldn't look for quality of life improvements there. It boils down to picking the spec that makes sense for what you're trying to do. If the issue is that a DPS geared shield spec vanguard outperforms a DPS geared shield spec guardian then it's probably more of an issue that the vanguard shield spec with DPS gear needs a nerf to either survivability or DPS. I'll note here though that the survivability of a shield spec with tank gear is not very high as is and in my opinion is really only good at racking up more damage with mortar volley spam that looks good on the leaderboard but has very little real impact on the match.

 

I'll note here that, right wrong or indifferent a guardian full tank spec is a support role. You're not going to be soloing many people, but you can peel very well, you can absorb a lot of damage through guard (HP boost, etc) and you have a lot of control abilities. To me, that's a valid role, even if it doesn't fit your playstyle. The desire for a tank to be able to solo people without heals and land kills I think is more of a biproduct of how good assassins/shadows are rather than how bad guardians are.

Edited June 1, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Phinex]

The Defence tree doesn't produce enough aggro to be acceptable in PvE and is fairly good on objective playing in PvP.

 

The Guardian has got this advantage of having very few or no casted abilities, he can therefore kite which is an extraordinary perk.

[Roiz]

The Defence tree doesn't produce enough aggro to be acceptable in PvE and is fairly good on objective playing in PvP.

 

The Guardian has got this advantage of having very few or no casted abilities, he can therefore kite which is an extraordinary perk.

HM...

First time i've heard guardin can kite, actually melle never kite, but they are kited. Concerning to defence in PvP it is useless. We have several defence specced guards in our server, they are complete team ballast. I play full vigilance build and in every warzone do way more damage than any other defence specced guard, if i face them in 1v1 i won 100% of time. We have a one good player on sorc, sage, gunslinger, sentinel and several powertechs and vanguards. On guard i cannot outdamage good powertechs and vanguards in almost any warzone no matter how hard i try it just a class limitation, they do so huge damage, they usually top1 in dps. I can challendge sentinels, sorcs and gunslingers but only if i overplay them and be lucky i can do more dps. But if i switch to my powertech i can challendge top1 in damage done in every warzone. There is some class advantages in terms of how easy to be top 1 in dps and this is not fair cause gap between powertech and guard is too huge.

[nokizaru]

False in every regard. Assassin tanks don't have the same degree of control that juggernaut tanks do nor do they have the same degree of overall map mobility. PT tanks and Sin tanks really only edge out juggernaut tanks with regard to overall damage.

 

Juggernaut DPS actually have a better capacity to protect than sin and pt dps due to the fact that they have a low opportunity cost to switch to soresu and toss out guard. Taunts are something that all 3 share in common so differentials in that regard are really just relegated to overall player skill. Both juggernaut DPS trees have very strong mobility and provide strong single target burst (multi-target in rage's case). Vengeance's overall damage is as good as PT damage and while the burst isn't as strong as sin burst, juggernauts can last a lot longer in the fray than either PTs or sins.

 

For all the talk of "team play" I see on here, the instances of 1v1 encounters are conveniently avoided. In larger maps like Alderaan or Novare Coast, you're inevitably going to have 1v1 encounters (rushing to bolster defence or aid in an offensive push). Coming from the perspective of someone with a lvl 50 Pyro PT, Tankasin and Guardian, I can tell you now that the Guard/Jugg comes up well short in 1v1's vs the other 2 tanks. I have never lost a 1v1 vs a Guardian with my Pyro or Sin. Not once. And I don't consider myself as being an 'exceptional' pvp'er. Not only can I utterly out-kite a Guardian with my Pyro and Sin, but I have the all-important advantage of range (not to mention the other tricks up my sleeve while playing a Tankasin).

 

For leaping across warzones and holding my own in group play? Yeah, my Guardian excels at that. But it still feels lacking when compared to the other tank specs in regards to 1v1 encounters. At some point Bioware is going to bring open world pvp back into the mix, and as things stand now, you wouldn't want to be a lone Guardian running about while my Pyro or Sin is lurking nearby.

[dcgregorya]

For all the talk of "team play" I see on here, the instances of 1v1 encounters are conveniently avoided. In larger maps like Alderaan or Novare Coast, you're inevitably going to have 1v1 encounters (rushing to bolster defence or aid in an offensive push). Coming from the perspective of someone with a lvl 50 Pyro PT, Tankasin and Guardian, I can tell you now that the Guard/Jugg comes up well short in 1v1's vs the other 2 tanks. I have never lost a 1v1 vs a Guardian with my Pyro or Sin. Not once. And I don't consider myself as being an 'exceptional' pvp'er. Not only can I utterly out-kite a Guardian with my Pyro and Sin, but I have the all-important advantage of range (not to mention the other tricks up my sleeve while playing a Tankasin).

 

For leaping across warzones and holding my own in group play? Yeah, my Guardian excels at that. But it still feels lacking when compared to the other tank specs in regards to 1v1 encounters. At some point Bioware is going to bring open world pvp back into the mix, and as things stand now, you wouldn't want to be a lone Guardian running about while my Pyro or Sin is lurking nearby.

 

To be fair most people are bad. That's probably why you've never lost a 1vs1. The last time I lost a 1vs1 with any class was my level 12 sent vs a level 46 marauder and even that was a pretty close fight. I guess I know which class I need to level to 50 becauase honestly I don't get why people are having so many problems with this class.

[nokizaru]

To be fair most people are bad. That's probably why you've never lost a 1vs1. The last time I lost a 1vs1 with any class was my level 12 sent vs a level 46 marauder and even that was a pretty close fight. I guess I know which class I need to level to 50 becauase honestly I don't get why people are having so many problems with this class.

 

That's a straw man, and does nothing to address the original point I made. Having "problems with the class" is not what I was referring to. I do quite well with my Guardian, actually. In Vig spec I'm always in the top 3-4 of damage and I'm someone who keeps to objectives at all times. My point was that with all other things being equal, the Pyro and Tankasin are stronger in 1v1 encounters vs Guardians. And furthermore, I know for a fact that some of the Guardians I fought are good pvp'ers - every bit as capable as I am, if not more so.

[Rauthadog]

HM...

First time i've heard guardin can kite, actually melle never kite, but they are kited. Concerning to defence in PvP it is useless. We have several defence specced guards in our server, they are complete team ballast. I play full vigilance build and in every warzone do way more damage than any other defence specced guard, if i face them in 1v1 i won 100% of time. But if i switch to my powertech i can challendge top1 in damage done in every warzone. There is some class advantages in terms of how easy to be top 1 in dps and this is not fair cause gap between powertech and guard is too huge.

 

There is your problem. You think objective based warzones are about DPS and that is the goal of any non healing class. Your vigilance guardian should out-dps my defense hybrid, because while you are running around trying to kill everything in sight I'm standing at the door or turret, guarding a healer and throwing taunts and stuns while I relentlessly try to take the objective. Then when everyone leaves, I'm still there guarding and buying 30-45 secs for my team to get support back to me when 4 or 5 of the enemy rolls in by kiting them behind a pillar or stairs or whatever rather than stand toe to toe and get gunned down in 12 secs. If that's ballast, throw a few more bags in back.

[dcgregorya]

That's a straw man, and does nothing to address the original point I made. Having "problems with the class" is not what I was referring to. I do quite well with my Guardian, actually. In Vig spec I'm always in the top 3-4 of damage and I'm someone who keeps to objectives at all times. My point was that with all other things being equal, the Pyro and Tankasin are stronger in 1v1 encounters vs Guardians. And furthermore, I know for a fact that some of the Guardians I fought are good pvp'ers - every bit as capable as I am, if not more so.

 

Obviously they're not. If I'm having issues with a 1vs1 I'll get adrenals and grenades to make up the difference and they're not doing that apparently. Not every class needs to be best at 1vs1 and also the best for team utility but you can certainly overcome the shortcomings with skill and preparation.

[Vodrin]

That's a straw man, and does nothing to address the original point I made. Having "problems with the class" is not what I was referring to. I do quite well with my Guardian, actually. In Vig spec I'm always in the top 3-4 of damage and I'm someone who keeps to objectives at all times. My point was that with all other things being equal, the Pyro and Tankasin are stronger in 1v1 encounters vs Guardians. And furthermore, I know for a fact that some of the Guardians I fought are good pvp'ers - every bit as capable as I am, if not more so.

 

Maybe I just am not finding good pyro PT's or their vanguard mirror, but my vengeance jugg only loses a 1v1 to them if their gear is significantly better than mine or if I really screw up in the fight. A rage jugg/focus guardian should never lose to an equally geared pyro. They have all the tools to counter the one defensive mechanic the PT has (kiting) and they do the one thing the PT excels at (burst damage) better. The jugg and guardian are very strong 1v1 classes if spec'd right and played well. Marauders and Sentinels are really the only class I struggle with in 1v1's right now, and I think I will be able to handle them with better gear and more practice.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Vodrin

[dcgregorya]

Maybe I just am not finding good pyro PT's or their vanguard mirror, but my vengeance jugg only loses a 1v1 to them if their gear is significantly better than mine or if I really screw up in the fight. A rage jugg/focus guardian should never lose to an equally geared pyro. They have all the tools to counter the one defensive mechanic the PT has (kiting) and they do the one thing the PT excels at (burst damage) better. The jugg and guardian are very strong 1v1 classes if spec'd right and played well. Marauders and Sentinels are really the only class I struggle with in 1v1's right now, and I think I will be able to handle them with better gear.

 

There's the issue, he's claiming his tank spec'd guardian should be just as good at 1vs1's as a pyro PT.

[lpsmash]

Guardian doesn't have instant stun in dps tree, level doesn't matter. The only stuns available are in defence tree. If you DPS specced - no stuns. Tank specced guards do gimped damage compared to tank specced assasins, if you want to be successful on guard in PvP rather than carrying balls you have to go DPS.

 

Last I heard, Force Stasis does damage. It also gives stacks of singularity when spec'd in focus.

 

Guardians damage is fine. If they could use something, it's a little defensive cooldown. They don't need to create a whole other ability, they could just take one of the sentinel only ability and make it available to the whole class (like pacify or rebuke, for example).

Edited June 1, 2012 by lpsmash