chronotrigger Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ive been following these boards for weeks now, and like most of you, I have issues with some of the ways in which the game is managed. I have concern for some errors, and bad ideas, and I have contemplated whether or or not I wanted to continue to pay a subscription. I have chosen to keep supporting SWTOR. In general, Im happy with the way things are, and I have hope for the future, as well as grasping the concept that if I dont do my part, I cant reasonably expect improvement. Speaking of doing ones part, I have a simple message for the general community. The next time you flex your hot little fingers, preparing to let them do the Keyboard Dance Of Woe in yet another thread about how terrible the community is, or how you cannot find anything to do, or about whatever it is that brings you here, ask yourself thusly: "When was the last time I saw someone spamming for a heroic, and I ignored it?" Seriously. Why do we expect people to leap to our own aide, when we ignore theirs? Why do we insist that it is the community at large that needs to conform to some nebulous concept of "better", when we ourselves are more invested in coming up with excuses why we WONT help people? "I already did that quest." "No one does heroics." "It takes too long." Logical fallacies. No, no one said any player is required to go out of their way to help another player. Its your subscription, you can do as you wish. But while youre busy exercising your right to not help out those at your level, or below, they are making up their minds about their own futures in SWTOR. Much like the fallacy of raiding, where one "Needs the gear to raid, but needs to raid for the gear", if you are not willing to step off your pedestal and help your inferiors, you will eventually stagnate and die. The military has a saying. "Train your relief". If you will not help people in the game of your own will, they will decide to take themselves elsewhere. The next time you prepare yourself for a storm of complaining, ask yourself how you might have helped someone who would be there to help you now. And ask yourself if being aloof/too cool for school/ was really worth it in the long run. Always willing to help someone on the Space Slug server. chronotrigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haliy Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Defiantly one of the better threads on these boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Defiantly one of the better threads on these boards. That made me lol a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Nice post. Waiting for the obligatory "you are missing the point!" comment from the TOR is dead faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Excellent, excellent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 That made me lol a bit. Hehe, definitely defiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haliy Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 That made me lol a bit. i'm sure it did... I guess you don't get tired of seeing the same exact thread being posted at least 100 times on a daily basis about server pop's, server mergers and why they should be happening, this game needs this or that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Are you saying that if people went out of their way to help each other more, less people would have left/more people would be playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjediknight Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 well put i have a lvl 50 on cantina i run ppl through fp for gear all the time an help people but when i get on one of my meny alts no one to help me if ppl from my guild are not on. people would rather a. stand infront of the mail box for three hours b. drive there speeder around the cantina Sorry im old school , when players in mmos helped people an cared about the ppl on there server, some some players now only care about themselves , they are the first to point the finger how sub has gone done but the last to give you a hand maybe if more people helped people pop would not be droping cuz people cant find a pary to do flash points. Defiantly one of the better threads on these boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 i'm sure it did... I guess you don't get tired of seeing the same exact thread being posted at least 100 times on a daily basis about server pop's, server mergers and why they should be happening, this game needs this or that... Oh... I skipped the OP, mainly because of your point added right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronotrigger Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Are you saying that if people went out of their way to help each other more, less people would have left/more people would be playing? Im not getting into "black and white" discussions, or acknowledging absolutes in an MMO environment. I am saying that whilst we stand around -not- assisting, we are driving away the portions of the playerbase, however small or large they might be. If 100 people attempt to complete a quest/run a flashpoint that requires the help of another player, and they are ignored, they will pass that activity up. It isnt as though the game doesnt go out of its way to reward players working together already. Even if 90 of those players would not turn around and assist another player in turn, the portion of people who would appreciate and return the favor making up their minds not to continue is entirely too high. In smaller terms, we have no excuse to complain about the lack of a virtuous community, so long as we are telling ourselves we have good and just cause to not help one another out. This can apply to any MMO or online setting of your choosing, and excusing the bad as "commonplace" is never, ever, the right answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronotrigger Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Oh... I skipped the OP, mainly because of your point added right there. Ok. Putting aside the fact that you apparently skipped the point, to make your own, (which is pretty much precisely what my original post was about, people not willing to do their part on their quest to be the star of their own show.) I understand how sometimes it can be frustrating to see people ask for Sith Spawn ten or more times, or whatever it is that they need. Again, I stress that no one is being singled out as the "Server Police, Protect and Serve". Im not implying that people should be on hot standby to help every single person who needs anothers assistance, or that we should have shifts helping people with Hadras. I am stating that when you see these empty servers, and when you cannot get your OWN quests done, or your PvP, or what have you, that is a by-product of your own unwillingess to help. (Not you specifically.) Ive made friends based off of the fact that after I saw someone post five times over the course of an hour that they needed help, I helped them. Lo and behold, a planet later, I needed help, and that lowbie person who I friended during that quest however long ago, was online, and helped me in turn. This isnt summer camp. Im not proposing that after we all hold hands and sing songs that everyone will magically be friends, and that we will never see a person who would gladly accept your help and then /ignore you. I am saying that with the bad, comes the good. Ask yourself when the last time you tried was. When was the last time you helped someone you didnt already know, and how might that be affecting your current inability to get things done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussasp Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Hi OP: I think your attitude is admirable, and if more people thought/played that way, there would indeed be a better community in this game. Here's my counter-point to your post, however... The developers made a SERIOUS mistake with the leveling speed in this game. One of the ways the leveling speed problem rears it's ugly head is in exactly the scenario you describe. There is absolutely NO WAY I personally would do what you advocate, and that is to wait to do a heroic quest line with one or more other players. And it's not just me, it's the way the overwhelming majority of the player base plays. But the reason for me is the the time component involved in what you describe is just not worth it. I can level any of my guys out of a zone well before that heroic group finding rigamarole is done. It's just not worth the time, in terms of getting a group together, everyone traveling to a certain spot, etc. Sadly, or not, these games are about hitting maximum level. And the developers made it obscenely easy and fast to hit maximum level on SWTOR. (unless, that is, you spend a lot of time helping out other people and doing the goofy group quests, the rewards for which you will out level VERY quickly) TLDR... your play style is admirable, but it is not how most of us play, and your way ensures a much slower leveling speed, in a game that has a really fast leveling speed built in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itukaaj Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Hi OP: I think your attitude is admirable, and if more people thought/played that way, there would indeed be a better community in this game. Here's my counter-point to your post, however... The developers made a SERIOUS mistake with the leveling speed in this game. One of the ways the leveling speed problem rears it's ugly head is in exactly the scenario you describe. There is absolutely NO WAY I personally would do what you advocate, and that is to wait to do a heroic quest line with one or more other players. And it's not just me, it's the way the overwhelming majority of the player base plays. But the reason for me is the the time component involved in what you describe is just not worth it. I can level any of my guys out of a zone well before that heroic group finding rigamarole is done. It's just not worth the time, in terms of getting a group together, everyone traveling to a certain spot, etc. Sadly, or not, these games are about hitting maximum level. And the developers made it obscenely easy and fast to hit maximum level on SWTOR. (unless, that is, you spend a lot of time helping out other people and doing the goofy group quests, the rewards for which you will out level VERY quickly) TLDR... your play style is admirable, but it is not how most of us play, and your way ensures a much slower leveling speed, in a game that has a really fast leveling speed built in. I agree with your point and the point that the game seems to encourage solo play through the class quest design. But, the OP point is that the community came make some difference in the mmo experience without it being just spoon fed. OP kudos. It it too late for me but i will look to come back next Feb. Hopefully, the pops will just be players like you. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) TLDR... your play style is admirable, but it is not how most of us play, and your way ensures a much slower leveling speed, in a game that has a really fast leveling speed built in. I'd like to interject my observation here, if you don't mind. In the first couple of months after this game launched, there were no problems doing all the heroics as you leveled, because there were people leveling with you. Even as concurrent play began to drop off, there were plenty still willing to hang back a bit to help others get the heroics done, even completing it twice just to help out. This is usually the case, not just at launch, but anytime there is a healthy population. 1.3 and beyond will see a return to a healthy enough population to see this again, especially in the event of "mega-servers", I think. Edited May 28, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faytthegreat Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I have often thought this while browsing these forums, its very much a "Others should be doing stuff for me" rather than "We should be doing stuff for each other" kind of mentality in MMOs and in alot of online "communities" for the past few years now. People started getting spoon-fed what they wanted and now that has become the perseved norm for most. While it is apprently hard to teach an old dog new tricks it seems to be even harder to unteach people to rely on a system built for them and take some time to do for themselves. Anywho, agree with OP, nicely put, hope something good comes of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laris_Rai Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 well put i have a lvl 50 on cantina i run ppl through fp for gear all the time an help people but when i get on one of my meny alts no one to help me if ppl from my guild are not on. people would rather a. stand infront of the mail box for three hours b. drive there speeder around the cantina . Here, here. Get out of the way! Other people wold like to use the mailboxes, you jerks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakkip Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ive been following these boards for weeks now, and like most of you, I have issues with some of the ways in which the game is managed. I have concern for some errors, and bad ideas, and I have contemplated whether or or not I wanted to continue to pay a subscription. I have chosen to keep supporting SWTOR. In general, Im happy with the way things are, and I have hope for the future, as well as grasping the concept that if I dont do my part, I cant reasonably expect improvement. Speaking of doing ones part, I have a simple message for the general community. The next time you flex your hot little fingers, preparing to let them do the Keyboard Dance Of Woe in yet another thread about how terrible the community is, or how you cannot find anything to do, or about whatever it is that brings you here, ask yourself thusly: "When was the last time I saw someone spamming for a heroic, and I ignored it?" Seriously. Why do we expect people to leap to our own aide, when we ignore theirs? Why do we insist that it is the community at large that needs to conform to some nebulous concept of "better", when we ourselves are more invested in coming up with excuses why we WONT help people? "I already did that quest." "No one does heroics." "It takes too long." Logical fallacies. No, no one said any player is required to go out of their way to help another player. Its your subscription, you can do as you wish. But while youre busy exercising your right to not help out those at your level, or below, they are making up their minds about their own futures in SWTOR. Much like the fallacy of raiding, where one "Needs the gear to raid, but needs to raid for the gear", if you are not willing to step off your pedestal and help your inferiors, you will eventually stagnate and die. The military has a saying. "Train your relief". If you will not help people in the game of your own will, they will decide to take themselves elsewhere. The next time you prepare yourself for a storm of complaining, ask yourself how you might have helped someone who would be there to help you now. And ask yourself if being aloof/too cool for school/ was really worth it in the long run. Always willing to help someone on the Space Slug server. chronotrigger 1)Last time I saw someone spamming heroics = approx 5-6 weeks ago 2)I /general on the fleet and each planet I hit that I am doing dailies and welcome anyone to join... I get about 1 joiner a week 3)It's impossible to help someone when they just aren't there.... Honestly you are out of touch with the issues on low pop servers. You arguments would be entirely valid with one caveat... when I am on I am lucky to see 12-15 level 50's with an overall population of 50 on the entire server. These issues have nothing to do with the players still left on those servers and everything to do with BW setting server caps too low, and not amalgamating servers soon enough. It's nice to make excuses for BW and blame it on the people, but really how do I fix a population of 50 short of paying for other peoples subs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Im not getting into "black and white" discussions, or acknowledging absolutes in an MMO environment. I am saying that whilst we stand around -not- assisting, we are driving away the portions of the playerbase, however small or large they might be. If 100 people attempt to complete a quest/run a flashpoint that requires the help of another player, and they are ignored, they will pass that activity up. It isnt as though the game doesnt go out of its way to reward players working together already. Even if 90 of those players would not turn around and assist another player in turn, the portion of people who would appreciate and return the favor making up their minds not to continue is entirely too high. In smaller terms, we have no excuse to complain about the lack of a virtuous community, so long as we are telling ourselves we have good and just cause to not help one another out. This can apply to any MMO or online setting of your choosing, and excusing the bad as "commonplace" is never, ever, the right answer. This is true, but also false. My guild always helped each other whenever anyone asked, they have all still quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 This is true, but also false. My guild always helped each other whenever anyone asked, they have all still quit. But, like he said, his point and post isn't a "black and white" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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